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Podcast Narrator
You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith.
Mary
Welcome to Catholic Saints. My name's Mary, and I am with Dr. Carl Vennerstrom here at the Augustine Institute in Florissant, Missouri. Thank you for joining us.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Very glad to be here, Mary.
Mary
Very exciting. What are you currently teaching on campus this fall?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
I am teaching Light to the Nations.
Mary
Okay.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Which is a history course.
Mary
Is that a new course?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
This is a new course in our. In the revision of the curriculum or in a new place with a new.
Curriculum, which is mostly, you know, it's very similar to the last one, but Light to the Nations.
Mary
It's got a catchy title. I like it.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, it's a new course in the new curriculum, so.
Mary
Okay.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
And fittingly for what we're about to.
Discuss, it's focused on Catholic saints throughout the history of the church.
Mary
So how prophetically God brings his continuity of the gospel from age to age. Is that the heart of the class?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, that.
That is.
I think one of the main elements of the class is seeing.
The light.
Of Christ, which is revealed in Christ's.
Followers in new ways, but really kind of the.
The same way over and over again, just in different. Different circumstances.
So a lot of the saints look a lot different. Justin Martyr. Yeah, we're a philosopher's toga and was.
A philosopher, but was martyred. Right. And then St. Francis wore rags and clean churches. So. Yes, both imitators of Christ.
Mary
Amen. And which saint will we be discussing today?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Today we're going to be talking about.
St. John of Damascus.
Mary
Okay.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah. So St. John of Damascus was born in 680.
In the city of Damascus.
Which is in Syria.
And this was a dramatic time and place to be born. Our listeners will recall that beginning in the early 620s, the Muslims started conquering. So first conquering the Arabian peninsula. So this was supposed to be during.
The life of Muhammad himself.
And then turning north and east to Persia and going into the Persian Empire, but then sweeping through the Holy Land.
And then Alexandria and Egypt and going further west, ultimately making it to Spain. They tried to go into France, but.
They were thankfully rebuffed. So in any case, Damascus was a central hub for the Islamic caliphate.
Yeah.
Mary
Was Damascus also mentioned frequently in the Old Testament? Is it a prophetic city that has scriptural connections?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
There was probably an Old Testament corollary name for it. It is mentioned in the New Testament.
In the Acts of the Apostles.
Mary
But to your point, it does seem that is part of St. John's unique mission too, that he hails from this city.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, it certainly was. And one of the interesting things about.
Christians who lived under Islamic rule and.
This would continue for centuries, is that often Muslims would use Christians in the bureaucracy. So St. John's father was an elite.
Member of the Caliph's bureaucratic system.
So basically he was, had a high place in the government.
Mary
Okay.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
So he was, had a high title and office.
Mary
Okay.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
And so St. John grew up in an Arabic speaking world, but was also educated in Greek and had, I mean, we don't know this directly necessarily, but his works gave evidence that he had.
A very elite philosophical education.
And we are told his father really.
Wanted him to study Greek and to study the Scriptures.
So yeah, this continued to be a.
Kind of phenomenon for a long time.
And it's all, it's worth remembering that.
For five or six hundred years over half of the world's Christians lived under Islamic rule. They spoke Arabic, they, they, they worshiped in Arabic.
Mary
Yes. No, I, I agree. Especially being an American girl, I'm not sure what that dynamic is like. So I'm fascinated to learn more about.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
St. John and, and obviously the numbers.
Of Arabic speaking Christians are greatly diminished now after, after so long. But there is a very rich heritage there, there to be explored.
Mary
What was he known for in this time period? Was he a teacher? Was he a hermit? What was his life, his path to holiness like?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, it was, it was dramatic in a way. So while he was still living in Damascus and himself had taken up a place as the city prefect in Damascus, he found himself embroiled in a controversy.
Within the Church at this point in time.
So one of the Christian heresies was, and this is one that is often kind of gets forgotten in the history of the Church.
We like, we'd like to think about.
The Trinitarian heresies, like think about Arius and then there's the Christological councils that address Christological heresies. But after those, there was this controversy over icons. So the Byzantine Empire, which was centered.
In Constantinople, that's like modern day Istanbul.
There was the, in a loose sense.
That the head of the Eastern churches.
And at this time the head of the Eastern Church, the Patriarch of Constantinople.
Advocated the position that icons, the reverencing of icons was a form of idolatry.
And so John wrote in response to.
This, in defense of, of icons, and.
He connected it in a very beautiful.
Way with the theological heritage that Christ truly took flesh and the Incarnation makes it possible for us to depict Christ.
And to depict the saints, Even though it's not like a perfect image of.
Them, it's still a true, true image that deserves our respect.
So the patriarch of Constantinople and the emperor especially, did not like this. And so the emperor actually wasn't able to touch John because he was part of the Islamic caliphate. He was under a different government. So as the story goes, the. The emperor sort of like, planted these false allegations against John that he was plotting against the caliph. The Islamic caliph. And so John gets his hand cut off.
Mary
I didn't know that part.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, yeah, he. He. He gets his hand cut off. And then this is the tradition is that the Muslims were kind enough to give the hand back. So after they parade him through the streets in a ignominious way, they give him back the hand, sort of puts it back on his wrist, and he prays before this icon of the Madonna and Child. And he falls asleep, as maybe some of us have while we're praying. And when he wakes up, his hand is attached.
Mary
Wow.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
A little red dot. Okay. And so.
John attributes this to Our Lady's intercession. And again, as the story goes, he crafts a silver hand, and he adds.
That to the icon.
So it's this icon in the Eastern.
Churches that is known as the three hands icon. So the two hands of Mary, and then this silver hand that John.
Mary
He created that. He wrote it.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, he. Well, he added the silver hand.
Mary
Okay.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
So now there's a feast day in.
The Eastern churches for the three hands.
Mary
Fascinating. Okay, so he. It sounds like definitely helping fight the heresy of iconoclasm. And yeah, he. He was a religious high figure. He was a political high figure, kind of both in this.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah. So he has a transition at this point. So the way the tradition about him goes is that this event inspired him to take his adopted brother with him.
To go live the monastic life in Jerusalem. So they go to this. This famous monastery in Jerusalem and start to live the monastic life.
And there are stories about him about how he sought out this special spiritual father and then was heroically obedient to him. And eventually his strong intellectual gifts were.
Recognized and he was ordained a priest.
Mary
Okay.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah.
Mary
Was. Is he a prolific writer?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, yeah. He's maybe not. He's not the most prolific of the church fathers, but he did write a number important works, and his writings are kind of interesting. He's. He's sometimes seen as being at the end of the patristic period, and people categorize these things differently, but he's a natural stopping Point because in at least some of his works, he's, he takes a lot of his work is to assemble long quotations from, from all the.
Fathers of the Church.
So he was a great student of.
The, the Fathers who had, who had come before him.
So he's like almost kind of scholastic.
In that way, although that's, that's not the right term. But.
So, yeah, he wrote dogmatic works. He, he wrote synthetic work called on the Orthodox Faith that is a kind of systematic theology that treats all the.
Major topics in, in theology.
He wrote works against heresies. He's actually one of the first Christians.
To write about Islam and he calls it the heresy of the Ishmaelites.
So he actually treats Islam as, as.
A Christian heresy rather than as a completely separate religion.
Mary
Okay, interesting.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, he also wrote poems and we.
Have homilies and a lot of, a lot of different stuff.
Mary
Yes. I learned that he is the patron of icon painters, theology students, which all reflect some of the writings and his lived experience.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Ye.
Mary
I also found he is a pharmacist. Is that a stretch? Do you know why that might be the case?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Perhaps not. I mean, he was a polymath, so.
He studied many, many different disciplines. So he wrote on nature.
Mary
Yes.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
On medicine. So it makes good sense.
Mary
Are there any things we didn't highlight yet about how Saint John of Damascus really left a legacy for the Church or particular.
Just things that he was so passionate about that continue in the life of the Church today?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, I think kind of like I was saying before, but he's really a model for someone who is a man of the Church in the sense that he wants to take as great an advantage as he can of the heritage.
Of the Church, which is itself a kind of heritage that he knew there was a great gift in studying the teachings and writings of all of the Fathers of the Church that, that went before him.
And he also did it during a.
Time of great turmoil. So I think that's a great model for, for theology that when we talk.
About God or we, we have conversations.
About theological matters or when we write.
About theological matters, the virtue is not.
To have something new to say.
Actually, until fairly recent in history, things.
That were new were considered bad.
Insofar as something was old, it was good. This is how most humans in history have, have thought.
And there's, there's something very wise about it, I think.
Mary
Did he have a particular devotion to Mary?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yes, he did. And in fact, I have right here his canon on the Feast of the Dormition. So we, we may not recognize this.
Feast day, the Dormition. Right.
So it's actually a basically identical feast to the Feast of the Assumption. It's called the Dormition in the Eastern churches because of parallel traditions, I guess, of Mary's entrance into heaven. And so in the Eastern narratives, which are the earliest ones, the story goes that Mary fell asleep, and then the apostles were all miraculously brought to her side. And so there are these icons of all the apostles gathered around what looks.
Like a dead Mary.
And the word sleep can mean different things in Greek.
Like we have St. Paul talking about people falling asleep and referring to death.
And they put her in the tomb. And then Thomas was the latest to.
Arrive in classic form, of course.
And so when he. He arrives late, only because he's arrived late, does he see what happens, which.
Is that Mary is brought up bodily into. Into heaven.
So this is the feast we celebrate, is the Feast of the Assumption.
Mary
Poor Thomas, he probably just was always teased.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Well, it's kind of great, though, because it's like we're all basically Thomas. Well, there's that. But then what I was going to say is that Thomas, even though he's slow to make his course, he maybe has the deepest encounter or the deepest experience with the mystery. It's his fingers that go into the.
Wound of Christ, and then he's the one who sees Mary being brought up bodily into heaven.
Mary
So that is beautiful.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, he. He is a great treasure, even if people deride him.
Mary
Were you going to read us something?
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah. So, yeah, I need to get off my soapbox about Thomas and read you this. So these are just the last couple of stanzas here. So this is on the Feast of the Dormition. These are the last lines of this.
Particular canon, which was chanted in the liturgy and I think still is chanted in Eastern liturgies.
Come, people of God, draw near to this sepulcher.
That is Mary's empty sepulcher filled with her memory. Show it veneration with the lips, the eyes, the heart of fidelity and in sincere humility, let us now draw from this spring of God's healing spiritual probity. Let us drink of God's gifts at his mother's tomb. Take from our hands this solemn processional Mother of mysteries. Keep us in the shade of your protecting hand. From shadows deliver us. And to our King, give victory to all your people. Give peace to us sinners. Pardon and deliverance. Bring us all to that bliss which we celebrate.
Mary
Beautiful. And one last question for you. Can you summarize how Saint John of Damascus would explain the importance of icons in our churches or the proper role of how they lead people to prayer.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, so there's, there's one way to think about it, which is just that we're physical beings with physical sense perceptions.
We also have spiritual sense perception. So we have spiritual sight, we have spiritual hearing, spiritual smelling even.
Mary
Wow.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
So those are higher and they reach.
To a higher object.
But God became man in order to.
Bring about salvation, so he took material flesh.
And so it's fitting that that materiality.
Should be expressed to our physical senses.
Because we, we don't need to be holy, we don't need to pretend that we're angels.
And actually part of being holy is admitting that we're physical persons and using our physicality, our material bodies as the means of our, our salvation.
And so God has condescended, he's come.
Down to us to be depicted in a material form.
Not that we mistake the material form.
For God and himself, but that through our physical senses we're brought into the, to the presence of God.
So really, in the Eastern churches, they're.
Often thought more like we would think of a sacrament. In, in the west, we think of like the seven sacraments.
And at least in some Eastern churches.
That category is a little, little looser and icons would certainly fit into it.
Mary
Beautiful. I bet St. John of Damascus and St. Thomas are friends up in heaven, even just with St. Thomas, you know, he touched the body of Christ and there's some correlation there too.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah, that's, that's actually a really good connection. And St. Thomas Aquinas, who loves to.
Quote St. John of Damascus. So.
Mary
Okay. Yes.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Maybe he's standing next to the two Thomas.
Mary
Yes. Well, thank you. This was fascinating to learn about. And even the, his witness of living the life of a Christian in a non Christian society where he was under Islamic rule as well. Yeah, I think it's an interesting application.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's worthwhile attending to Christians like Saint John of Damascus and seeking their intercession for ourselves. But then we can also, we can.
Also remember all of the Christians who live in the Middle east now, often under very adverse circumstances, and we keep them in our prayers as we hope for theirs as well.
Mary
Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you, Dr. Venusrem.
Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
My pleasure.
Yes.
Mary
St. John of Damascus, pray for us.
Host: Mary
Guest: Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, Augustine Institute
Date: December 4, 2025
This episode delves into the life, influence, and enduring legacy of St. John of Damascus (c. 680–749), a key figure bridging early Christian thought and later Eastern and Western theological traditions. Dr. Carl Vennerstrom joins Mary to explore how St. John’s heritage, defense of icons, extensive writings, and devotion to Mary continue to shape the Church.
“The Incarnation makes it possible for us to depict Christ.”
(Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, 06:55)
John’s Restored Hand and the Icon:
“When he wakes up, his hand is attached. John attributes this to Our Lady’s intercession.”
(Dr. Carl, 08:20)
On Church Tradition:
“Until fairly recent in history, things that were new were considered bad. Insofar as something was old, it was good.”
(Dr. Carl, 13:00)
St. John’s Marian Hymn:
“Come, people of God, draw near to this sepulcher. … Mother of mysteries. Keep us in the shade of your protecting hand. … Give peace to us sinners. Pardon and deliverance. Bring us all to that bliss which we celebrate.”
(Dr. Carl, quoting St. John, 15:53–16:33)
On the Importance of Icons:
“We don't need to pretend that we're angels. … Part of being holy is admitting that we're physical persons and using our material bodies as the means of our salvation.”
(Dr. Carl, 17:31)
This episode presents St. John of Damascus as a bridge between cultures and eras: an educated Christian in the Islamic world, a courageous defender of icons, and a synthesizer of Christian tradition. His insights into the role of materiality and tradition remain vital, especially for Christians navigating faith in challenging times. His Marian devotion and spiritual poetry inspire continued veneration in both East and West.
St. John of Damascus—pray for us!