St. John Damescene

Summary

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Catholic Saints Podcast: St. John of Damascus

Host: Mary
Guest: Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, Augustine Institute
Date: December 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the life, influence, and enduring legacy of St. John of Damascus (c. 680–749), a key figure bridging early Christian thought and later Eastern and Western theological traditions. Dr. Carl Vennerstrom joins Mary to explore how St. John’s heritage, defense of icons, extensive writings, and devotion to Mary continue to shape the Church.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Historical and Cultural Context of St. John’s Life

• [02:06] St. John’s Background
  • Born into an elite Christian family in Muslim-ruled Damascus, Syria in 680.
  • Grew up in a world where Christians were often part of the Muslim bureaucracy.
  • Received an advanced education in both Arabic and Greek, encouraged by his father.
  • “For five or six hundred years over half of the world’s Christians lived under Islamic rule. They spoke Arabic, they worshiped in Arabic.” (Dr. Carl, 04:49)
• Damascus features in biblical history, including the Acts of the Apostles ([03:34]).

2. Role and Challenges as a Christian Official

• St. John followed his father’s footsteps in civil service within the Islamic Caliphate.
• This unique position allowed him to influence both Christian and Muslim contexts.

3. The Iconoclast Controversy and Defense of Icons

• [05:31] Dramatic Church Conflict:
  • St. John became embroiled in the iconoclasm controversy: a movement in the Byzantine Empire to ban religious images as idolatrous.
  • He wrote influential defenses of icons; his argument: "The Incarnation makes it possible for us to depict Christ. … It's still a true image that deserves our respect." (Dr. Carl, 06:55)
• Miraculous Story ([07:53]):
  • Accused falsely of plotting against the Caliph by Byzantine Emperor’s instigation, St. John’s hand was cut off.
  • After praying before an icon of the Madonna and Child, his hand was miraculously restored – a detail commemorated in the famous “three hands” icon in Eastern churches.
• “After they parade him through the streets … he prays before this icon … when he wakes up, his hand is attached.” (Dr. Carl, 08:18)

4. Transition to Monasticism and Legacy in Theology

• St. John left public life to become a monk in Jerusalem, seeking spiritual growth and obedience.
  • “He sought out this special spiritual father and then was heroically obedient to him.” (Dr. Carl, 09:34)
• Eventually ordained a priest, admired for his wisdom.

5. Writings and Doctrinal Influence

• St. John is considered the last of the Greek Church Fathers:
  • Compiled and synthesized the teaching of many previous Fathers—“a man of the Church … he wants to take as great an advantage as he can of the heritage of the Church” (Dr. Carl, 12:09).
• Major works:
  • On the Orthodox Faith: systematic theology.
  • Against Heresies, including one of the first Christian critiques of Islam (“heresy of the Ishmaelites”).
• Patron saint of icon painters, theology students, and possibly pharmacists due to his broad intellectual pursuits ([11:31]).

6. Spiritual Legacy and Marian Devotion

• St. John’s deep devotion to Mary is still reflected in liturgical hymns, especially in Eastern traditions.
• The “Dormition” feast marks Mary’s assumption, emphasizing her role through John's poetry:
  • “Come, people of God, draw near to this sepulcher … Take from our hands this solemn processional Mother of mysteries. Keep us in the shade of your protecting hand.” (Dr. Carl reading St. John's canon, 15:53–16:33)

7. Theological Defense of Materiality and Icons

• Icons and senses:
  • “We don't need to pretend that we're angels. … Part of being holy is admitting that we're physical persons and using our physicality, our material bodies, as the means of our salvation.” (Dr. Carl, 17:31)
  • Icons are fitting because “God became man in order to bring about salvation, so he took material flesh” ([17:15]).
  • In the East, icons have a semi-sacramental status.

8. Model for Modern Christians

• St. John as an example of Christian fidelity in a non-Christian society.
  • Dr. Carl urges listeners to remember and pray for Middle Eastern Christians today ([19:03]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The Incarnation makes it possible for us to depict Christ.”
  (Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, 06:55)

• John’s Restored Hand and the Icon:
  “When he wakes up, his hand is attached. John attributes this to Our Lady’s intercession.”
  (Dr. Carl, 08:20)

• On Church Tradition:
  “Until fairly recent in history, things that were new were considered bad. Insofar as something was old, it was good.”
  (Dr. Carl, 13:00)

• St. John’s Marian Hymn:
  “Come, people of God, draw near to this sepulcher. … Mother of mysteries. Keep us in the shade of your protecting hand. … Give peace to us sinners. Pardon and deliverance. Bring us all to that bliss which we celebrate.”
  (Dr. Carl, quoting St. John, 15:53–16:33)

• On the Importance of Icons:
  “We don't need to pretend that we're angels. … Part of being holy is admitting that we're physical persons and using our material bodies as the means of our salvation.”
  (Dr. Carl, 17:31)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:06: St. John of Damascus’ heritage and education
• 05:31: Iconoclasm controversy explained
• 07:53: Story of St. John’s hand and the three hands icon
• 09:16: Move to monastic life in Jerusalem
• 10:53: St. John’s contributions as a writer and theologian
• 12:09: His model of drawing from Church tradition
• 13:17: Devotion to the Virgin Mary and the Dormition Feast
• 15:53: Reading from St. John's canon on Mary's Dormition
• 16:50: St. John’s theology of icons and human senses
• 19:03: Reflection on Christian life under adversity and connection to the present

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Conclusion

This episode presents St. John of Damascus as a bridge between cultures and eras: an educated Christian in the Islamic world, a courageous defender of icons, and a synthesizer of Christian tradition. His insights into the role of materiality and tradition remain vital, especially for Christians navigating faith in challenging times. His Marian devotion and spiritual poetry inspire continued veneration in both East and West.

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St. John of Damascus—pray for us!

Transcript

[Podcast Narrator]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith.

[Mary]

Welcome to Catholic Saints. My name's Mary, and I am with Dr. Carl Vennerstrom here at the Augustine Institute in Florissant, Missouri. Thank you for joining us.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Very glad to be here, Mary.

[Mary]

Very exciting. What are you currently teaching on campus this fall?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

I am teaching Light to the Nations.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Which is a history course.

[Mary]

Is that a new course?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

This is a new course in our. In the revision of the curriculum or in a new place with a new.

Curriculum, which is mostly, you know, it's very similar to the last one, but Light to the Nations.

[Mary]

It's got a catchy title. I like it.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, it's a new course in the new curriculum, so.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And fittingly for what we're about to.

Discuss, it's focused on Catholic saints throughout the history of the church.

[Mary]

So how prophetically God brings his continuity of the gospel from age to age. Is that the heart of the class?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, that.

That is.

I think one of the main elements of the class is seeing.

The light.

Of Christ, which is revealed in Christ's.

Followers in new ways, but really kind of the.

The same way over and over again, just in different. Different circumstances.

So a lot of the saints look a lot different. Justin Martyr. Yeah, we're a philosopher's toga and was.

A philosopher, but was martyred. Right. And then St. Francis wore rags and clean churches. So. Yes, both imitators of Christ.

[Mary]

Amen. And which saint will we be discussing today?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Today we're going to be talking about.

St. John of Damascus.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. So St. John of Damascus was born in 680.

In the city of Damascus.

Which is in Syria.

And this was a dramatic time and place to be born. Our listeners will recall that beginning in the early 620s, the Muslims started conquering. So first conquering the Arabian peninsula. So this was supposed to be during.

The life of Muhammad himself.

And then turning north and east to Persia and going into the Persian Empire, but then sweeping through the Holy Land.

And then Alexandria and Egypt and going further west, ultimately making it to Spain. They tried to go into France, but.

They were thankfully rebuffed. So in any case, Damascus was a central hub for the Islamic caliphate.

Yeah.

[Mary]

Was Damascus also mentioned frequently in the Old Testament? Is it a prophetic city that has scriptural connections?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

There was probably an Old Testament corollary name for it. It is mentioned in the New Testament.

In the Acts of the Apostles.

[Mary]

But to your point, it does seem that is part of St. John's unique mission too, that he hails from this city.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, it certainly was. And one of the interesting things about.

Christians who lived under Islamic rule and.

This would continue for centuries, is that often Muslims would use Christians in the bureaucracy. So St. John's father was an elite.

Member of the Caliph's bureaucratic system.

So basically he was, had a high place in the government.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

So he was, had a high title and office.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And so St. John grew up in an Arabic speaking world, but was also educated in Greek and had, I mean, we don't know this directly necessarily, but his works gave evidence that he had.

A very elite philosophical education.

And we are told his father really.

Wanted him to study Greek and to study the Scriptures.

So yeah, this continued to be a.

Kind of phenomenon for a long time.

And it's all, it's worth remembering that.

For five or six hundred years over half of the world's Christians lived under Islamic rule. They spoke Arabic, they, they, they worshiped in Arabic.

[Mary]

Yes. No, I, I agree. Especially being an American girl, I'm not sure what that dynamic is like. So I'm fascinated to learn more about.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

St. John and, and obviously the numbers.

Of Arabic speaking Christians are greatly diminished now after, after so long. But there is a very rich heritage there, there to be explored.

[Mary]

What was he known for in this time period? Was he a teacher? Was he a hermit? What was his life, his path to holiness like?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, it was, it was dramatic in a way. So while he was still living in Damascus and himself had taken up a place as the city prefect in Damascus, he found himself embroiled in a controversy.

Within the Church at this point in time.

So one of the Christian heresies was, and this is one that is often kind of gets forgotten in the history of the Church.

We like, we'd like to think about.

The Trinitarian heresies, like think about Arius and then there's the Christological councils that address Christological heresies. But after those, there was this controversy over icons. So the Byzantine Empire, which was centered.

In Constantinople, that's like modern day Istanbul.

There was the, in a loose sense.

That the head of the Eastern churches.

And at this time the head of the Eastern Church, the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Advocated the position that icons, the reverencing of icons was a form of idolatry.

And so John wrote in response to.

This, in defense of, of icons, and.

He connected it in a very beautiful.

Way with the theological heritage that Christ truly took flesh and the Incarnation makes it possible for us to depict Christ.

And to depict the saints, Even though it's not like a perfect image of.

Them, it's still a true, true image that deserves our respect.

So the patriarch of Constantinople and the emperor especially, did not like this. And so the emperor actually wasn't able to touch John because he was part of the Islamic caliphate. He was under a different government. So as the story goes, the. The emperor sort of like, planted these false allegations against John that he was plotting against the caliph. The Islamic caliph. And so John gets his hand cut off.

[Mary]

I didn't know that part.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, yeah, he. He. He gets his hand cut off. And then this is the tradition is that the Muslims were kind enough to give the hand back. So after they parade him through the streets in a ignominious way, they give him back the hand, sort of puts it back on his wrist, and he prays before this icon of the Madonna and Child. And he falls asleep, as maybe some of us have while we're praying. And when he wakes up, his hand is attached.

[Mary]

Wow.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

A little red dot. Okay. And so.

John attributes this to Our Lady's intercession. And again, as the story goes, he crafts a silver hand, and he adds.

That to the icon.

So it's this icon in the Eastern.

Churches that is known as the three hands icon. So the two hands of Mary, and then this silver hand that John.

[Mary]

He created that. He wrote it.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, he. Well, he added the silver hand.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

So now there's a feast day in.

The Eastern churches for the three hands.

[Mary]

Fascinating. Okay, so he. It sounds like definitely helping fight the heresy of iconoclasm. And yeah, he. He was a religious high figure. He was a political high figure, kind of both in this.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. So he has a transition at this point. So the way the tradition about him goes is that this event inspired him to take his adopted brother with him.

To go live the monastic life in Jerusalem. So they go to this. This famous monastery in Jerusalem and start to live the monastic life.

And there are stories about him about how he sought out this special spiritual father and then was heroically obedient to him. And eventually his strong intellectual gifts were.

Recognized and he was ordained a priest.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Was. Is he a prolific writer?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, yeah. He's maybe not. He's not the most prolific of the church fathers, but he did write a number important works, and his writings are kind of interesting. He's. He's sometimes seen as being at the end of the patristic period, and people categorize these things differently, but he's a natural stopping Point because in at least some of his works, he's, he takes a lot of his work is to assemble long quotations from, from all the.

Fathers of the Church.

So he was a great student of.

The, the Fathers who had, who had come before him.

So he's like almost kind of scholastic.

In that way, although that's, that's not the right term. But.

So, yeah, he wrote dogmatic works. He, he wrote synthetic work called on the Orthodox Faith that is a kind of systematic theology that treats all the.

Major topics in, in theology.

He wrote works against heresies. He's actually one of the first Christians.

To write about Islam and he calls it the heresy of the Ishmaelites.

So he actually treats Islam as, as.

A Christian heresy rather than as a completely separate religion.

[Mary]

Okay, interesting.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, he also wrote poems and we.

Have homilies and a lot of, a lot of different stuff.

[Mary]

Yes. I learned that he is the patron of icon painters, theology students, which all reflect some of the writings and his lived experience.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Ye.

[Mary]

I also found he is a pharmacist. Is that a stretch? Do you know why that might be the case?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Perhaps not. I mean, he was a polymath, so.

He studied many, many different disciplines. So he wrote on nature.

[Mary]

Yes.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

On medicine. So it makes good sense.

[Mary]

Are there any things we didn't highlight yet about how Saint John of Damascus really left a legacy for the Church or particular.

Just things that he was so passionate about that continue in the life of the Church today?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, I think kind of like I was saying before, but he's really a model for someone who is a man of the Church in the sense that he wants to take as great an advantage as he can of the heritage.

Of the Church, which is itself a kind of heritage that he knew there was a great gift in studying the teachings and writings of all of the Fathers of the Church that, that went before him.

And he also did it during a.

Time of great turmoil. So I think that's a great model for, for theology that when we talk.

About God or we, we have conversations.

About theological matters or when we write.

About theological matters, the virtue is not.

To have something new to say.

Actually, until fairly recent in history, things.

That were new were considered bad.

Insofar as something was old, it was good. This is how most humans in history have, have thought.

And there's, there's something very wise about it, I think.

[Mary]

Did he have a particular devotion to Mary?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yes, he did. And in fact, I have right here his canon on the Feast of the Dormition. So we, we may not recognize this.

Feast day, the Dormition. Right.

So it's actually a basically identical feast to the Feast of the Assumption. It's called the Dormition in the Eastern churches because of parallel traditions, I guess, of Mary's entrance into heaven. And so in the Eastern narratives, which are the earliest ones, the story goes that Mary fell asleep, and then the apostles were all miraculously brought to her side. And so there are these icons of all the apostles gathered around what looks.

Like a dead Mary.

And the word sleep can mean different things in Greek.

Like we have St. Paul talking about people falling asleep and referring to death.

And they put her in the tomb. And then Thomas was the latest to.

Arrive in classic form, of course.

And so when he. He arrives late, only because he's arrived late, does he see what happens, which.

Is that Mary is brought up bodily into. Into heaven.

So this is the feast we celebrate, is the Feast of the Assumption.

[Mary]

Poor Thomas, he probably just was always teased.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Well, it's kind of great, though, because it's like we're all basically Thomas. Well, there's that. But then what I was going to say is that Thomas, even though he's slow to make his course, he maybe has the deepest encounter or the deepest experience with the mystery. It's his fingers that go into the.

Wound of Christ, and then he's the one who sees Mary being brought up bodily into heaven.

[Mary]

So that is beautiful.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, he. He is a great treasure, even if people deride him.

[Mary]

Were you going to read us something?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. So, yeah, I need to get off my soapbox about Thomas and read you this. So these are just the last couple of stanzas here. So this is on the Feast of the Dormition. These are the last lines of this.

Particular canon, which was chanted in the liturgy and I think still is chanted in Eastern liturgies.

Come, people of God, draw near to this sepulcher.

That is Mary's empty sepulcher filled with her memory. Show it veneration with the lips, the eyes, the heart of fidelity and in sincere humility, let us now draw from this spring of God's healing spiritual probity. Let us drink of God's gifts at his mother's tomb. Take from our hands this solemn processional Mother of mysteries. Keep us in the shade of your protecting hand. From shadows deliver us. And to our King, give victory to all your people. Give peace to us sinners. Pardon and deliverance. Bring us all to that bliss which we celebrate.

[Mary]

Beautiful. And one last question for you. Can you summarize how Saint John of Damascus would explain the importance of icons in our churches or the proper role of how they lead people to prayer.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, so there's, there's one way to think about it, which is just that we're physical beings with physical sense perceptions.

We also have spiritual sense perception. So we have spiritual sight, we have spiritual hearing, spiritual smelling even.

[Mary]

Wow.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

So those are higher and they reach.

To a higher object.

But God became man in order to.

Bring about salvation, so he took material flesh.

And so it's fitting that that materiality.

Should be expressed to our physical senses.

Because we, we don't need to be holy, we don't need to pretend that we're angels.

And actually part of being holy is admitting that we're physical persons and using our physicality, our material bodies as the means of our, our salvation.

And so God has condescended, he's come.

Down to us to be depicted in a material form.

Not that we mistake the material form.

For God and himself, but that through our physical senses we're brought into the, to the presence of God.

So really, in the Eastern churches, they're.

Often thought more like we would think of a sacrament. In, in the west, we think of like the seven sacraments.

And at least in some Eastern churches.

That category is a little, little looser and icons would certainly fit into it.

[Mary]

Beautiful. I bet St. John of Damascus and St. Thomas are friends up in heaven, even just with St. Thomas, you know, he touched the body of Christ and there's some correlation there too.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, that's, that's actually a really good connection. And St. Thomas Aquinas, who loves to.

Quote St. John of Damascus. So.

[Mary]

Okay. Yes.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Maybe he's standing next to the two Thomas.

[Mary]

Yes. Well, thank you. This was fascinating to learn about. And even the, his witness of living the life of a Christian in a non Christian society where he was under Islamic rule as well. Yeah, I think it's an interesting application.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's worthwhile attending to Christians like Saint John of Damascus and seeking their intercession for ourselves. But then we can also, we can.

Also remember all of the Christians who live in the Middle east now, often under very adverse circumstances, and we keep them in our prayers as we hope for theirs as well.

[Mary]

Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you, Dr. Venusrem.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

My pleasure.

Yes.

[Mary]

St. John of Damascus, pray for us.