B (3:49)

Sure. And as you mentioned, for the readers, if you're not familiar with, he's famous for being this mystical doctor about teaching things about the interior life of. What is it like when someone becomes a disciple of Christ and we hear things like dark night of the senses, we hear dark night of the soul. And those are kind of scary things for us. As we read. I know so many people have just started to like, I want to read a spiritual book. He's a saint. He's a doctor of the church. I'm going to start reading St. John of the Cross. And he writes poetry. Right. Some of his. The way that he teaches his poetry. And so they pick up John of the Cross and it's just, I mean, you can see the volume, the volume in his hand, it's so thick. And I think the temptation is to become quickly to despair and to think like, oh, this is all suffering all the time.

C (4:35)

Yeah. And not only that, his works, they are. They are very edifying to read, but they are very challenging. And so I, I think this is why some people find another Carmelite, namely Saint Therese of Lisieux, a little bit more engaging to begin with. She actually share a lot in terms of the fundamentals of her spirituality with St. John of the Cross and with the mother of the order, St. Teresa of Avila. But St. John of the Cross writes in a very kind of detailed, lengthy, systematic way and if you're not kind of familiar with the overview, it's not that it can't be read without any profit or fruit, but it can be very challenging and it can lead one. Yeah. To a kind of despair.

B (5:15)

I remember when I was. I was blessed to go on a pilgrimage to Spain last year and to visit some wonderful sites of Trisa Vavilo, St. John of the Cross. And so I got to read, you know, to dive deeply, you know, to dive back into his. Some of his writings. And it was different going through as. Through it a second or a third or a fourth time. But I remember being. It was very daunting that. That first time I went through. And one of the things that struck me about his life was he. He was raised in a poor family, but his father was actually really wealthy. And that his. This is how it relates, I think, to maybe how it manifested in his. In his writing, in his life. His father was very wealthy and he fell in love with a peasant. And his family said, we'll reject you. We will not give you any money. You won't be part of the family anymore if you choose to love her. And he gives up all the wealth, the father gives up all the wealth to marry this young woman. And they live in poverty, so much poverty. The fact that actually leads to an early death. So when John is just two years old, his father dies. And I think that imprinted on John's life in such a way that he saw someone in his own marriage, the parents marriage. He wouldn't have any memory of his father growing up, but he would have been told the story. And he saw someone give up everything for the sake of love, his father and his mother. And he also saw someone suffer, saw his parents suffer for the sake of love, suffer everything. The loss of wealth, the loss of fame, loss of life, of companionship in the marriage for the sake of love. And for. When I was reading John and preparing for the pilgrimage to Spain, that's what struck me was that the love was such a driving force in his writing.

C (7:03)

Yeah. You know, it just occurs to me now that St. John Paul II was a great fan of St. John of the Cross.

B (7:10)

He wrote his dissertation. Right. On John on the Cross. Yeah.

C (7:12)

And faith in St. John on the Cross. And I was just teaching some of St. John Paul II's works for a course on Christian marriage. And we read his great play, the Jeweler's Shop. And it's fascinating that in that play, which traces kind of sort of three married couples in a way, one of the central couples there, the father dies very young and his son is one or two years old as well. But the son also somehow imbibes, if you will, the love between the parents, and that sets him up to enter into, hopefully, a strong, loving marriage. And so I just. I wonder if this was part of the influence in this work of literature, this poetic, dramatic play that St. John Paul II wrote, as you mentioned, that.

B (8:10)

John Paul II did. He wrote his dissertation, so he spent a lot of time with this college when you're in their writings, when you're writing a dissertation. But he made a pilgrimage to Spain and really wanted to celebrate Mass there. And he left his chalice that he celebrated to commemorate as a thank you to John. To John of the Cross.

C (8:28)

That's right. And he learned Spanish so that he could read his works in the original Spanish, which for John Paul ii, learning another language was a challenge. He was really gifted that way. But still, it shows a great love. And I mean, the marital imagery, when you mention it, too, it's really fascinating and beautiful that St. John of the Cross very often speaks about the spiritual life in union with God in nuptial imagery. And so does St. Teresa of Avila, in fact. And so they both speak about the highest levels of the interior life of union with God in nuptial imagery, which also comes from the Old Testament in scripture. We find this as well. So I think there is this. This drawing on that, that early experience. And so it's fascinating, too. My. My parents were actually married on December 14th.

B (9:19)

Oh, nice.

C (9:19)

Yeah. And so this year. Oh, gosh, I don't know, it'll be quite a number of years. They're approaching 50 years. And so if they happen to be watching this, Happy anniversary, Mom and Dad. But it's a beautiful day to have that anniversary and that celebration because of the central role that marriage played in John of the Cross's life and in how he thought about and taught the spiritual life.

B (9:43)

So if I'm watching at home and I'm a skeptic and I'm saying, all right, all right, okay, nuptial imagery. What is this celibate guy? Because he was a priest, I know he wanted to enter as a lay brother to the Carmelites. And they saw the gifts that he had and they ordained him a priest. And he helps with Teresa of Avila, the reformer of this Carmelite order. Teresa of Avila, known for reforming the Carmelites and the female branch. And she really encouraged John. John wanted to be a Carthusian, really hardcore. And she's like, no, no, no, she had the saintly insight like, no, no, no, you can help the Carmelites. You can help me. And so she convinced him to join the Carmelites and help reform that order. But if I'm sitting at home and I'm skeptical, I was like, okay, what is a saint? You know, a celibate virgin woman and a celibate virgin man. A priest and a nun. What do they know about marriage? Why do they keep writing about it all the time? What would you say to someone who asked that question?

C (10:35)

Yeah, well, I think at the heart of it is the realization that the reality that informs and motivates both the interior life and marriage is love. And so St. John of the Cross teaches that we are made for love. And marriage is that specific friendship, that specific relationship that asks everything of us. We give ourselves our whole lives. You know, we make promises and vows. And there's a similar. There's a kind of parallel in the spiritual life for these celibate doctors of the Church, right? A parallel where it demands all of them. Love is this complete gift of all that they have. And they do that not with respect to a human partner, right, a spouse, but with respect to the divine Spouse. And so that. That underlying fundamental reality of love, that reality for which we are created, they know that inside and out because of the intimate relationship they have with God. So I think when we wonder, well, what do they know about marriage? It's actually because we have. We tend to have an impoverished view of what is possible in our relationship with God. But because they don't have that same poverty, but rather a fullness, they are able to actually understand a lot of the truths about marriage. Of course, they don't have the same on the ground experience, but what's really at the heart and that vocation to love and to enter into a communion of life and love, as St. John Paul II says, they know what that's about.

B (12:16)

What would be a theme or an image that John uses that you think would be helpful for us to think about?

C (12:23)

Oh, that's a good. That's a good question. I think. One, A famous image that he uses is the image of light shining through a window. And the light is supposed to be God and his grace shining into the soul. And the purity of the window is what allows the fullness of the grace to come in. But of course, the window can be smudged. It can be a little dusty, and that is, of course, sin. So with this image, I think what's really helpful is if you've ever tried to clean Windows, you know, that the first time doesn't always work. There can be smudges that the light shines through in a certain way. And you realize, how did I miss that? Like, are they coming back? You know, it's just this lingering problem. And there's a way that. That works out in the spiritual life as well. And this is one of the things I love about St. John of the Cross is he is incredibly attentive to the ways that. That we can fail to uncover the attachments that we have. And we can think, well, I'm just. I'm past that sin. You know, I'm. I'm over that. Like, I'm moving on. And he's not going to deny that we've made progress. But what he teaches over and over is that the sins that we think we've left behind, the attachments that we think we've left behind, they often resurface in new ways to present new challenges as we grow in the spiritual life. And it's by constantly returning to those. Those smudges on the window that we're able to see them, that we're able to go to confession and purify them. And it's this process that allows us ever so slowly, to grow closer to God. And so I love that he presents this continual challenge where he opens up a sin like gluttony. And we think, well, this has to do with eating food. And he says, well, there's a form of spiritual gluttony as well. And when I read that the first time, it was sort of like, what.

B (14:16)

What would that be? You know, I thought.

C (14:17)

I thought, I'm over the food thing, you know, and then, yeah, what would that be? But there can be ways that we, you know, run from retreat high to retreat high. And we love the kind of pleasure that we get from that. We can indulge in that too much. And he says, look, that can be good, but it's ultimately about God, right? And if we don't give up that spiritual gluttony and focus on God, we're not going to continue making progress. So this kind of idea of keeping the window clean, I think is incredibly helpful to see that God is constantly drawing us closer and closer. And it's in the proximity, that great light, that we sometimes encounter these new and maybe smaller but still significant smudges.

B (14:58)

So what I hear you saying is that the divine Windex of cleaning the windows, the car wash of our life, is a sacrament of confession.

C (15:07)

That's basically what I was saying.

B (15:09)

No, but that is a beautiful image. Thank you for sharing that. And I say this jokingly, but like, that is a very striking image. To know that God's mercy allows us to be cleansed of the sin, but also shines, allows the light to be light of God's grace, to shine more brightly on our sinful attachments. That's one of the things that struck me too, is the teaching about attachment. And I noticed the image of a bird. And you can bind the bird with a strong chain, and the bird can't fly away or invisible, the tiniest of threads, and the bird is still attached to the branches, still can't fly. And that image of the soul flying, that's what it looks like for the life of discipleship, a life fully alive, alive in Christ, alive to all the virtues that God gives us. And that's what the saints and the doctors of the church do. This is why John of the Cross writes in such a way as he wants us to be free. He wants us to have that freedom that we will have in heaven. We can begin to have it here.

C (16:09)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, I think when we talk about the smudges on the window and we talk about the. The threads or the strings holding back a bird, it's again, important to just see that it's not that he's overly focused on the negative, but he so much wants that light to shine through. He so much wants us to be able to take off with this divine fruit and to soar. And so it is important. The hard work of sanctity is there's a grace involved, but it does ask something of us. And so there is hard work, but we do that in view to these incredibly great goods. And I think, you know, some of the. His teaching on the beauty and the sort of rapture of the highest levels of prayer, that's also a motivation for us where we see, yeah, it's not just about, you know, sins and crosses, but those are for the sake of intimate union with the Lord and gifts beyond imagining in this life. And then, of course, culminating in the next.

B (17:07)

One of my favorite images, and which I think is helpful for the Christian life, is the image of fire. And he talks about fire a lot. And he says that when we get close to God's fire, through prayer, through presence, through spending time with our Lord in the blessed sacraments and the other sacraments, that if you've ever had wet wood, that's us in our sinfulness, that the fire, you know, the season, you know, I love that his date falls within the winter season, at least in the Northern hemisphere where we have fires during the winter season. And if you throw wet wood on the fire, you know that it hisses, it smokes, right? It throws a fit, if you will, as it slowly begins to dry out. And then once it becomes dry, then it too is set on fire. Because fire turns other things into fire, into itself. And that's the image of God's love. God wants to turn us into himself, and he does that through divine charity. And the more that we live out our life of charity, of loving God and loving neighbors, we'll become more and more like God. We'll be like John of the Cross. And he chose that name. His initial name was John of St Matthias and he renamed himself John of the Cross because he wanted to be so intimately linked to the cross, which is a sign of victory over sin and death. Just Google one of his poems and you'll just see what a beautiful writer and poet he is. And that poetry is full of deep spiritual meanings rooted in scripture and rooting also in the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas. So thank you for your support of the Augusta Institute, especially through the the Mission Circle. Thank you for joining us and God bless.

A (18:37)

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