Catholic Saints Podcast — St. John of the Cross (Augustine Institute) Episode Date: December 14, 2025
Participants: Dr. Ben Akers (Host, Executive Director of FORMED) & Dr. Scott Heffelfinger (Professor, Augustine Institute Graduate School of Theology)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the life and teachings of St. John of the Cross, a Spanish priest, mystic, and Doctor of the Church renowned for his profound insights into the spiritual life and Christian mysticism. The conversation explores John’s challenging yet transformative spirituality, his use of poetic imagery, the biographical influences on his thought, and his enduring relevance for Christians seeking deeper union with God.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Initial Attraction and Common Misconceptions about St. John of the Cross

[01:32–03:49]

• "What didn't attract me." Dr. Heffelfinger describes being initially put off by John's demanding spirituality, especially his counsel to "be inclined always, not to the easiest, but to the most difficult...not to what means rest for you, but to hard work" (Ascent of Mount Carmel).
  • Notable quote: "He can be presented sometimes as very demanding...But I came to realize this is just...being completely in love with and devoted to Jesus Christ." — Dr. Scott Heffelfinger [02:33]
• St. John’s “all in” attitude is not about rejecting pleasures or ease per se, but about preferring God above all, and learning detachment for the sake of love.

2. The Challenge of Reading John and His Place Among the Carmelites

[03:49–05:15]

• St. John writes dense, systematic treatises and poetry, making him daunting for newcomers.
  • Dr. Akers notes some find Thérèse of Lisieux more accessible, despite her sharing much of John’s theology.
• The need for perseverance and humility when approaching his works is emphasized.

3. Biographical Influences: John’s Upbringing and Family

[05:15–07:03]

• John’s life was marked by early suffering: his wealthy father lost his fortune and died young after marrying for love against his family’s wishes.
  • "He saw someone give up everything for the sake of love...suffer everything...for the sake of love." — Dr. Ben Akers [06:23]
• Dr. Akers connects these formative family stories to John's passion for sacrificial love in his writings.

4. Impact on Others: St. John Paul II

[07:03–09:19]

• St. John Paul II was profoundly influenced by John of the Cross, wrote his dissertation on him, and made a pilgrimage to Spain, even leaving his chalice at John’s tomb.
• Both John and Teresa of Avila use nuptial (marriage) imagery for union with God, rooted in biblical tradition.

5. The Importance of Nuptial Imagery and Spiritual Marriage

[09:19–12:16]

• Skepticism addressed: What can celibate saints know about marriage?
  • Dr. Heffelfinger explains that both marriage and the mystical path demand total self-gift motivated by love.
  • "At the heart of it is...the reality that informs and motivates both the interior life and marriage is love." — Dr. Scott Heffelfinger [10:35]

6. John's Mystical Imagery: The Window and Light

[12:16–14:58]

• John likens the soul to a window; God's light is blocked by the "smudges" of sin (even subtle attachments).
  • Spiritual progress requires ongoing purification—often slow and humbling.
  • Attachments take many forms, even spiritual ones (e.g., “spiritual gluttony”—overattachment to consolations rather than to God Himself).
  • "It’s by constantly returning to those smudges...that allows us ever so slowly to grow closer to God." — Dr. Scott Heffelfinger [13:12]

7. The Bird and the Thread: Lessons on Attachment

[14:58–16:09]

• Dr. Akers shares John’s image of a bird tied with a chain or "the tiniest of threads"—even a small attachment keeps it from flying, emphasizing how little things can keep us from full union with God.
  • "He wants us to be free...that we will have in heaven. We can begin to have it here." – Dr. Ben Akers [15:43]
• True freedom comes through detachment for love’s sake, not as an end in itself.

8. The Fire: God’s Transforming Love

[17:07–18:13]

• John’s frequent metaphor is fire: when wet wood (the sinful soul) is placed in fire (God), it hisses and smokes before being transformed.
  • "Fire turns other things into fire, into itself. And that's the image of God's love. God wants to turn us into himself, and he does that through divine charity." — Dr. Ben Akers [17:37]
• Human souls—despite resistance—are destined to be made like God through charity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the daunting nature of John's way:
  • “I don’t want the least pleasant. I don’t want the dark night of the soul. I’m all about light and love and joy...But I came to realize this is just the flip side...of being completely in love with Christ.” — Dr. Scott Heffelfinger [02:33]
• John’s poetic approach:
  • “He writes poetry...and you pick up John of the Cross and...the temptation is to become quickly to despair and to think like, oh, this is all suffering all the time.” — Dr. Ben Akers [03:49]
• Attachment imagery:
  • "You can bind the bird with a strong chain...or the tiniest thread, and it's still attached...That's what it looks like for the life of discipleship, a life fully alive..." — Dr. Ben Akers [15:07]
• On purification and confession:
  • "The divine Windex of cleaning the windows, the car wash of our life, is the sacrament of confession." — Dr. Ben Akers [14:58]
• Marital spirituality:
  • "Love is this complete gift of all that they have. And they do that...with respect to the divine Spouse." — Dr. Scott Heffelfinger [11:12]
• On the goal of sanctity:
  • “It's not just about sins and crosses, but those are for the sake of intimate union with the Lord and gifts beyond imagining...” — Dr. Scott Heffelfinger [16:48]
• On fire and transformation:
  • “Fire turns other things into fire, into itself. And that's the image of God's love. God wants to turn us into himself...” — Dr. Ben Akers [17:37]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:32] — Dr. Heffelfinger’s introduction to and initial struggles with John of the Cross
• [03:49] — The daunting nature of John’s works and comparison to other Carmelites
• [05:15] — John’s early biography and its impact on his spirituality
• [07:03] — St. John Paul II’s devotion to John of the Cross
• [09:19] — Discussion of celibate saints and nuptial imagery in spirituality
• [12:23] — The “window and light” metaphor for spiritual purification
• [14:58] — Bird and thread analogy for attachment
• [17:07] — Fire and wet wood: God’s transforming love

Conclusion

This episode artfully balances biography, theology, and practical advice, revealing St. John of the Cross not as a severe ascetic but as a man consumed by love for God—and determined to share the path to spiritual freedom and union through poetic imagery and lived example. Dr. Akers and Dr. Heffelfinger encourage listeners, despite the intimidating nature of John’s writings, to persevere and discover the liberating joy at the heart of his message.