St. John Paul II

Summary

Catholic Saints – St. John Paul II (Augustine Institute)

Episode Date: October 22, 2025
Host: Tim Gray
Guest: Douglas Bushman, Professor of Theology, Augustine Institute

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep exploration of the life, teachings, and continuing impact of St. John Paul II, with particular focus on his concept of the "New Evangelization" and his dedication to implementing the Second Vatican Council. Host Tim Gray and his guest, theologian Douglas Bushman, reflect on how John Paul II shaped the identity and mission of Catholics for the 21st century through his profound theology of love, ardor, and gift, and how he continues to serve as a beacon of hope, unity, and fidelity amidst challenges facing the Church.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. St. John Paul II and the New Evangelization

• Early Vision: From his first papal visit to Poland, John Paul II spoke of a "new evangelization," a call that evolved throughout his pontificate.
• Definition and Development:
  • Initially centered on reaching "lapsed Catholics" — those baptized but living as if God doesn’t exist ([01:22]).
  • Expanded in his 1999 apostolic exhortation Ecclesia in America to characterize the entire life and mission of the Church ([01:52]).
• Identity as Missionaries:
  • The core identity of all Christians, according to John Paul II, is as “missionary disciples” ([02:44]).
  • “It's a way of being, doing business, if I can put it that way.” — Douglas Bushman ([01:52])

2. The Spirituality of Communion and Holiness

• Building from Baptism:

  • Mission arises from the spirituality of communion (communio/koinonia) and from the call to holiness ([03:25]).
  • The universal call to holiness from Vatican II underpins John Paul II’s vision ([05:53]).

• Living Witness:

  • The new evangelization is described as “Christian life on display”—living so Christ-centered that others are drawn to inquire about faith ([06:34]).
  • “People will notice that you’re driving to Mass every Sunday... your family life will have a dynamic that’s different.” — Douglas Bushman ([06:34])

• Not Everyone Is Called to the Same Role:

  • Some start institutes or produce media, others are missionaries, but all Christians are part of this mission through holiness.

3. The Role of Ardor and Apostolic Boldness

• Ardor Modeled by John Paul II:

  • The new evangelization calls for “new ardor”—energy and boldness in faith, modeled by John Paul II ([07:47]).
  • Drawing from Acts of the Apostles, Bushman highlights “parrhesia,” the apostles’ boldness, as John Paul’s example ([08:01]).

• Love as the Source:

  • This mission flows naturally from being loved by Christ and loving others in turn ([08:01]).

4. Theology of Love and the Dynamic of Gift

• God as Love, Life as Gift:

  • John Paul II’s theology centered on the inner life of the Trinity as mutual self-giving, which inspires human love and mission ([09:44]).
  • Recognition that Christians are called to make a gift of themselves to others, mirroring the Trinity ([10:22]).

• The Holy Spirit as Gift:

  • John Paul II’s encyclical on the Holy Spirit emphasized the Spirit as the “person-gift,” a profound reflection often underappreciated ([11:47]).
  • “He taught so much because he loved so much.” — Tim Gray ([11:47])

5. Humility and Implementation of Vatican II

• John Paul II's Dedication:
  • His entire pontificate aimed to interpret and implement Vatican II faithfully, seeing it as a gift of the Holy Spirit for our age ([13:10], [16:53]).
  • He demonstrated self-effacing humility, subordinating his papal authority to the direction Vatican II provided ([13:10]).
  • “My agenda is that of the Holy Spirit. Let's read and live this great gift of the Holy Spirit to the church of our time.” — Douglas Bushman ([13:10])

6. Contemporary Controversies Around Vatican II

• Faithful Catholics in Doubt:

  • The hosts acknowledge that some faithful Catholics now question Vatican II, while originally critiques came from those wishing to “modernize” the Church ([16:53]).
  • The risk is in validating extreme interpretations and losing continuity with the tradition ([16:53]).

• The Right Disposition Toward Church Gifts:

  • Bushman counsels listeners to approach Vatican II with trust and an openness to its gifts, not with suspicion ([19:18]).
  • Memorable analogy: Opening a letter from Uncle Jeff (Bezos) with happy anticipation, as we should receive gifts from the Church, not with the dread one greets a tax bill ([19:18]).

• Witness of Unity and Suffering:

  • One of the most important contemporary witnesses is unity; grumbling and division grieve the Holy Spirit ([23:50]).
  • The answer to difficulties in the Church mirrors Christ’s response: to suffer with hope and love, deepening Eucharistic devotion and devotion to Our Lady of Sorrows ([23:50]).

7. Reclaiming Hope in Troubled Times

• Faith and Hope Under Test:

  • Bushman discusses how the rapid secularization and cultural changes challenge hope and lead to misplaced blame on Vatican II ([24:36]).
  • Pointed out the reality of vibrant dioceses and parishes flourishing due to faithful implementation of Vatican II ([24:36]).
  • Cautions against the temptation to focus only on negatives, noting both light and darkness are present in the life of the Church ([24:36]).

• The Importance of Faith in Christ’s Promises:

  • Grumbling against the leadership of the Church is scripturally seen as a lack of faith ([24:36]).
  • The sign of true hope is trusting in Christ’s promises to be with His Church.

8. Agents of Springtime, Not Prophets of Winter

• Emulating John Paul II’s Hope:
  • Tim Gray highlights John Paul II’s ability to look toward a “new springtime” in the Church even after a period of “winter” ([28:29]).
  • Encourages listeners to be “agents of the springtime rather than prophets of the winter,” filled with supernatural hope and magnanimity ([28:29]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the meaning of new evangelization:
  “The new evangelization is focused on… baptized Catholics who live as if God doesn’t even exist.”
  — Douglas Bushman ([01:22])

• On Christian identity:
  “The identity of a Christian is to be a missionary disciple.”
  — Tim Gray ([02:44])

• On mission and witness:
  “The new evangelization is simply Christian life on display.”
  — Douglas Bushman ([06:34])

• On ardor:
  “He [John Paul II] modeled this idea of ardor… that typified the early church in the new circumstances in which the Church finds herself today.”
  — Douglas Bushman ([08:01])

• On love and the Trinity:
  “By God’s grace, now we participate in the life of the Trinity. And so our whole life is relationships, making a gift of ourselves to others and … receiving the gift that others make of themselves to us.”
  — Douglas Bushman ([10:22])

• On Vatican II as a gift:
  “My agenda is that of the Holy Spirit. Let’s read and live this great gift of the Holy Spirit to the church of our time.”
  — Douglas Bushman ([13:10])

• On division and hope:
  “There’s a lot of grumbling going on in the church, and Holy Scripture has a lot to say. That kind of grumbling is taken by God as a lack of faith.”
  — Douglas Bushman ([24:36])

• On choosing hope over negativity:
  “Spring follows what season? Winter. But [John Paul II] didn’t go around saying it’s winter, it’s winter. He talked about the spring, and how can we be agents of the spring?”
  — Tim Gray ([28:29])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:22 - 02:44: Introduction & Early Concept of New Evangelization
• 03:25 - 06:34: Spirituality of Communion, Holiness, Mission
• 07:47 - 09:15: Ardor, Apostolic Boldness, and Love
• 09:44 - 13:10: Theology of Love and Gift; The Holy Spirit
• 13:10 - 16:53: Implementation & Reception of Vatican II
• 16:53 - 19:18: Questioning Vatican II: Then and Now
• 19:18 - 23:50: Hermeneutic of Suspicion & Analogy of Receiving Gifts
• 23:50 - 24:36: Witness of Unity & the Role of Suffering
• 24:36 - 28:29: Reassuring Faithful Catholics on Vatican II & the Signs of the Times
• 28:29 - end: Hope, Focus on Good News, Agents of Spring

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Conclusion

Tim Gray and Douglas Bushman present an inspiring portrait of St. John Paul II, not only as a “gift to the 21st century,” but as a model of ardor, hope, and faithfulness to tradition. The episode reassures listeners facing confusion or negativity regarding the Church’s direction, urging them to rediscover the light, unity, and hope that St. John Paul II called forth. The discussion encourages Catholics to embrace their mission in the spirit of the new evangelization and to live as agents of spiritual springtime.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith.

[Tim Gray]

Welcome to form Now, I'm Tim Gray, president of the Augustine Institute, and our topic for today is a wonderful topic that I'm very excited about, is God's gift to the 21st century St. John Paul II, or really St. John Paul the Great. And we have a special guest. I'm very excited to have Douglas Bushman join us. He's a professor of theology here at the Augusta Institute. And we're going to talk about John Paul ii, especially in light of, you know, he is a great gift to the church. And, you know, one of his great rallying cries that so many people know him by is, is this idea of the new evangelization. He really summoned the church to a new evangelization. And, you know, let's just start, Douglas, with what did St. John Paul II mean by the new evangelization? You know. You know, I can think of the talk he gave to the American bishops at Haiti in 1983, where he gave some of the characteristics, but it's really something that he had at the beginning of his pontificate. He talked about new evangelization right at the beginning when he went to Poland for the first trip. But it's something that grew with his pontificate, isn't it?

[Douglas Bushman]

It did grow. In fact, you can see an evolution in his understanding of it, not radically different. For example, in Redemptori Smisio, which has a status of an encyclical. So 1990, he said that the new evangelization is focused on reaching out to what we say is lapsed Catholics. He actually uses pretty strong language. Baptize Catholics who live as if God doesn't even exist.

[Tim Gray]

Wow. Yeah, he was blunt.

[Douglas Bushman]

Blunt, secularized Catholics. So he said that there's the mission ad gentis to the places where Christ has not been proclaimed. There's ongoing pastoral catechetical work to help people grow in their faith throughout. But then the new evangelization, he said, targets those who are really not practicing their faith. Well, by 1999. So right before the celebration of the Jubilee, his Apostolic exhortation Ecclesia in America, he broadened that, and he said the new evangelization is the mode of the Church's existence right now. Pope Francis has really picked up on this, talking about this, a whole missionary disposition that we're all called to have. And so now by the Jubilee, the new evangelization covers all of the Church's activity. It's a way of being, doing business, if I can put it that way.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, well, you know, it gets back to, as John Paul was pushing it more and more, to this sense of identity. The identity of a Christian is to be a missionary disciple. That's something that Pope Francis talks about, this idea of being disciples. He uses that. He's going back to that biblical language and being missionary being. And it seems that for John Paul ii, as he's growing this sense of mission and reigniting, stirring the church towards this idea of a new evangelization, it really requires a returning to our core identity. And let's just talk about how he did that. He did that in so many powerful ways of getting us back to this identity that would then flow into mission.

[Douglas Bushman]

That's right. So I think that there are, first of all, two fundamental terms to get at this idea of identity taking the Church as a whole, the spirituality of communion, communio koinonia. And this really becomes one of his favored phrases from the jubilee forward. So for about the last five or six years of his pontificate. And so our mission flows from our having been missioned, from having received it, beginning in baptism. And so the way that I like to describe the new evangelization, it's the way that the Church fulfills the golden rule at this point in history. So the Church has always evangelized. I think there's an analysis that goes something like this. Our popes actually, starting with Paul vi, but really picking up steam with John Paul ii, are concerned, have been concerned that there's a deficit of bearing witness to Christ. And their analysis leads them to. To the following. Well, anyone who's fallen in love, anyone who has been loved by Christ, cannot not talk about him and cannot live the life of the Holy Spirit. And so if there's a deficit of bearing witness to Christ, there's a deficit of Christian life. But if there's a deficit of Christian life, there's also a terrible misunderstanding of the doctrine which is the foundation of that life. So Pope Paul VI wrote an encyclical in which he outlined all of this. And he said there's three steps to doctrinal awareness or penetration. When we understand our faith better, we engage in a deep metanoia, a conversion. And the fruit of conversion then is bearing witness to Christ. And so when John Paul talks about new evangelization, it flows from holiness. That's the second word that I wanted to throw out there. So spirituality of communion and holiness. John Paul said on more than One occasion that the essential message of Vatican II is the call to holiness. Let God love you and then he will draw you into his own holiness. Well, once that happens, the witness happens automatically. It becomes not something added to life. It's simply your Christian life, Douglas, that.

[Tim Gray]

Gets to something very important, I think, to John Paul ii. That is, as you're taking it back to Vatican ii. You know, obviously the universal call to holiness is one of the most important aspects and one of the most salient features of the Second Vatican Council. Calling all people the laity, all of us, not just religious and clerics, but everyone in the life of the church is called and invited by God to a life of holiness and should live it because of baptism. And so given that idea of that, John Paul then reflects on this call to holiness and then is a call for. That relates to his call to mission, doesn't it? I mean, it really relates to, hey, if we are called to holiness, that's got to lead to mission.

[Douglas Bushman]

Absolutely. And the first dimension of mission is simply that life of holiness. I say to my students here at the Augustine Institute, the new evangelization is simply Christian life on display. People will, they'll notice that you're driving to mass every Sunday. They'll notice that you have a preferential love for the poor. They'll notice that your teenage children hopefully are going to be reformed, respectful and family life will have a dynamic that's different than the one that you see in our secularized culture. And that's the participation in the new evangelization everyone is called to. Now, some people will start an Augustine Institute and create media materials to promote it. Some people might actually go and be a missionary somewhere. But we're all called to holiness to live such a conspicuously Christ centered life that when people encounter us, they say, wait a minute, there's got to be an explanation for this. And of course, you know, have an accounting of your hope ready when people ask. So typically it's the witness of life that comes first, and then you respond to the questions that that raises in the minds of other people.

[Tim Gray]

One of the terms that St. John Paul II used for this idea of holiness is ardor. And I love that particular word. You know that the new evangelization requires a new ardor. He embodied ardor. And so he modeled this idea, didn't he? In so many ways for people.

[Douglas Bushman]

Yes. And you'll love this because his most, his favorite way of describing this ardor is to go back to the Acts of the Apostles and the Parrhesia the confident boldness with which the apostles proclaimed Christ even when they were persecuted. In fact, they seem to have interpreted their persecution as a sign from heaven that they were doing exactly what they should do. So it's a very. It's a recovery and a way of living that apostolic vigor or ardor that typified the early church in the new circumstances in which the Church finds herself today. So you're absolutely right. But I would add this follows upon love. When you really love Jesus because He has loved you, then there's a center to your life and. And your definition of what it means to be human is to put him first and to receive the sacraments, read the Scriptures, pray, let him love you. But then this comes back to what I had said earlier. The new evangelization is simply the golden rule. Loving others as we have been loved by Christ, and loving others as we love ourselves, allowing Christ to love us.

[Tim Gray]

Douglas, you speak about this importance of love. And of course, John Paul II wrote philosophically as well as theologically about love, and he used the term gift. Now, John Paul, he loved language and he loved people. And this is why he was the great communicator. I mean, if people thought that Reagan was the great communicator, I mean, John Paul II took that to a whole different level, didn't he?

[Douglas Bushman]

Oh, he sure did. Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

But let's just talk about this idea of gift and how he understood that term, because it really gets to the inner dynamics of what you're speaking of.

[Douglas Bushman]

Yes, it certainly does. So God is love. And he describes the inner life of the Trinity as mutual self giving and then, of course, receiving the gift that the other members of the Trinity make. Well, the graces of baptism make us participants in that divine life. So this is, let's call it a pastoral implication of the doctrine of the Trinity. By the way, it just drives me crazy. The only time practically in the liturgical year that I hear priests, or it could be a deacon, the mystery of faith is on Trinity Sunday.

[Tim Gray]

Trinity Sunday, right.

[Douglas Bushman]

And what that means is I have nothing to say about it because it's a mystery. Well, John Paul, too, had a lot to say, because we are image of God first of all. So we are called to love and to be loved. As he says in his first encyclical, Redemptor Holiness, Life is not worth living. It has no meaning without love. That's how much we are made in God's own image and likeness. And so by God's grace, now we participate in the life of the Trinity. And So our whole life is relationships, making a gift of ourselves to others and then receiving the gift that others make of themselves to us. This is how the church lives out the trinitarian mystery. And when people encounter this in a vibrant religious community, in a family that's striving for holiness in workplaces, like I've encountered here at the Augustine Institute, where there's just such an ardor and a vigor and excitement about what we're doing. But it's all grounded in this fundamental. I'll call it a humility that starts with being loved by God. And the fascinating thing about God's love is it doesn't leave us passive. It activates our capacity to love. And this, frankly, is how we give glory to God, by proclaiming the good news about God's love, first by living it, and then secondly verbally, if someone should ask us.

[Tim Gray]

You know, Douglas, you're exactly right. When I hear people say, well, the Trinity is just this mystery. It is a mystery. But faith seeks understanding, and revelation gives us a glimpse into not a full understanding, but a lot of understanding about who God is. So it just seems like a shortcut for Christians. You say, well, it's a mystery. Yeah, it is a mystery. And we wouldn't know it apart from God revealing it. And that's part of what revelation is. You know, I think of St. John Paul II as you talk about the importance of Trinity and love and relationship and gift of self. You know, one of the problems with John Paul II is that he wrote so much that so much of it gets lost, Right. It just. There was just this. He was just so prolific. He was so productive. But his encyclical on the Holy Spirit is just an example of this. And it's entitled, you know, gift and Spirit. Right. You know, the idea of the Holy Spirit is this gift. That's who he even uses the term gift for, as a name for the Holy Spirit. It's one of the most profound reflections in the entire Catholic tradition on the person of the Holy Spirit. And I think a lot of people don't know about it, but he was such a great. He was such a contemplative theologian who really wanted to dive deeply into the mystery of God and then share it. Like you said, that activating love. He just. He taught so much because he loved so much, right?

[Douglas Bushman]

Oh, exactly. It's really interesting. St. Thomas Aquinas has a great text about the missions of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son is missioned as word of God. The Holy Spirit is missioned as love of God. And he says the Son is sent as a word, but not just any word, but a word that brings forth the inspiration of love. And so just to know facts about God is not really to receive Jesus and the Gospel, but to receive him and to allow that reception to be total and to allow God to love you. Now we have the two persons who are missioned, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And you know, when we talk about gift, it is, it's very interesting because as you said, he calls the Holy Spirit the person, love the person, gift of the Holy Spirit. And the title of our talk is gift for the 21st century, John Paul II. But he never referred to himself as a gift. All right. And this reminds me of a passage from the Catechism. I think it's article 687 or 678 that refers to the Holy Spirit as the self effacing member of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit inspires scripture. And he's always talking about the Father and the Son, but he speaks very little about himself. Well, we can see this reflected in the pontificate of John Paul ii. He considered the Second Vatican Council to be the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church of our age dozens of times. He says that often referring to this refrain in the early chapters of the Book of Revelation. Hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Well, who wrote the Book of Revelation? Well, let's see. John the Apostle and the Holy Spirit, who inspires Scripture. Well, who wrote Vatican ii? Well, the successors of the apostles and the Holy Spirit whom Christ promised would assist the Church and guide her through all the centuries. So the Second Vatican, John Paul dedicated his entire pontificate to the implementation and interpretation of the Second Vatican Council. And you see a Holy Spirit like self effacing and humility here. St. Thomas once defined humility as submitting to what is of God in another. As a teacher, I can tell you this happens all the time in class. One of my students writes a great line in a paper or a paragraph or asks a brilliant question and there's so much truth in it that I am called at that moment to subordinate my teaching gifts to the manifest gift of truth in this particular student. That's how John Paul II thought about the Second Vatican Council. In his first encyclical he asks, where shall we go from here? And he says, well, he says essentially the Holy Spirit has pointed the way. Ecumenical councils don't happen very often. This is the gift and the word of the Holy Spirit to the Church of our time. So I am going to subordinate my supreme apostolic authority in the church. God has pointed. He's given me a pointer, and so I have no personal agenda. My agenda is that of the Holy Spirit. Let's read and live this great gift of the Holy Spirit to the church of our time.

[Tim Gray]

He had that great, humble acceptance in his life of prayer, but also just humbly accepting so many different things. But really, Vatican II was so important for St. John Paul II. And, Douglas, let me ask you this, because right now, in a lot of circles today, and I think it would trouble John Paul's heart to see that some people are really questioning the Second Vatican Council. And of course, before John Paul II became pope, when he was a bishop, he knew that there was a lot of people questioning Vatican ii. And they talked about the spirit of Vatican II and that it was going to change the church and the church was going to become like the world and be updated. We're going to throw out some of these doctrinal teachings and moral teachings and kind of make the church more up to date. And of course, John Paul was against that. And really, you could say, I don't think it would be an understatement. His whole pontificate was to validate and give the right, correct interpretation of Vatican ii. And it's troubling to me to see there's been those voices trying to steer Vatican II to be something that it wasn't right to be worldly. And those voices were there right after. During the Council, right after the Council. We have them still with us today. But what's shocking to me is that people who really want to be faithful, Catholics who really want to be orthodox and faithful, and they're now questioning Vatican II because they see people on the left using it, and they're, in a sense, betraying John Paul II and really betraying everything he fought for. They're giving into the narrative of radical narrative that Vatican II was really about changing the nature of the church and that it wasn't really in continuity with the tradition, in continuity with the word of God, and this wasn't really from God. People are really questioning if Vatican II was from God and legitimate. And when they do that, they're really validating this radical hijacking of Vatican II that John Paul spent his pontificate arguing against it, aren't they?

[Douglas Bushman]

I think so. And, you know, I feel like I want to say, had our prophets, three saints, St John XXIII, St Paul VI, St John Paul II, all three participated in the council, obviously in different ways. And Paul VI also dedicated his pontificate to the implementation of the Second Vatican.

[Tim Gray]

Council and not canonized yet, because he's still alive. Pope Benedict.

[Douglas Bushman]

Yes. Oh, I'm with you all the way. So I think that you used the word people are questioning. And among us scholars, we use this term a hermeneutic of suspicion. But I think that's exactly what has happened. There's a lot of blogging, there's a lot of books being written, and this stuff travels very quickly. And I think many people, actually, it begins with a crisis of hope. Excuse me. I think that they. I think of the disciples from Emmaus. We had hoped. It's one of the saddest three lines in all of Scripture. And of course, Jesus, in his great humility, we've talked about he walks alongside them. He knows who he is. We talked about identity earlier, but he's content to go unknown for we don't know how many kilometers. But it sounds like it was quite a ways. And he wanted to open the scriptures to them, and of course he did that their hearts burned within them. So I would say to those who are tuning in on our discussion, ask yourself if you have the proper disposition of faith. So a minute ago we talked about gift and love. Here's what I say to my students in class. I say, so let's pretend it's April 10th. So we're five days before tax day, all right? And you get two letters in the mail. One letter is from Uncle Sam, and that's everybody's uncle. And then the other uncle is from Jeff. Uncle Jeff. I'm referring to Uncle Jeff Bezos. Okay? The richest man in the world. Now, what do we know about these two uncles before we open the letter? What do we know about them? Well, we know that Uncle Jeff is always looking for distant family members to make charitable contributions to. Right? And we know that Uncle Sam is always asking us to give him more. Alright, so Uncle Jeff giveth. Uncle Sam taketh away. All right, before you. So I asked my students, which of the two letters are you going to open first? Well, Uncle Jeff's letter, of course, because there's probably something exciting, given what I know about Uncle Jeff. I open it with happy anticipation, knowing what I know about Uncle Sam. We can put that off. What do we know about the Catholic Church, the successors of the apostles, and Christ's promise to the church? Vatican II is the gift of the Holy Spirit to the church of our time. We should open it up with that happy sense of anticipation that love is speaking to us. Truth is speaking to us. And I know how much you know and cherish scripture. I often think in our current troubled times, with respect to this questioning, this Suspicion about Vatican II, think it's chapter 26 of Jeremiah. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but at a certain point, the people were getting tired of Jeremiah's message. And apparently they coined a little phrase when they'd see Jeremiah coming to town. They would so sarcastically say, okay, prophet, what's the burden of the Lord today? Not, not happy anticipation. What's the word of the Lord for us coming from this prophet anointed by the Lord? What's the burden of the Lord? I think there's a lot of people who look at Vatican II that way, and it is so profoundly sad. Now, we talked about the new evangelization and witness earlier. One of the most important witnesses is unity. And it grieved St. Paul. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, he says in the letter to the Ephesians. It grieved him to think that there were divisions among the early churches. This is something that I think Christ is calling all of us to enter more deeply into his paschal mystery. And my students say, what can we do about this, Professor Bushman? I said, well, why don't we do what God did? Why don't we suffer? Because that's the answer to everything. A charity that loves to the end. And so we need a real revitalization of eucharistic devotion. And that means participating more deeply in Christ's paschal charity and grieving over so much loss. One of Our Lady's titles is Our lady of Sorrows. She shows us the way. And that is certainly the answer to all of the church's challenges today.

[Tim Gray]

Douglas Today in society at large, oftentimes in the church, there's just a lot of confusion and there's a lot of concern and anxiety. And like you said, I thought poignantly the loss of hope to some degree. How do you reassure people who maybe are confused, maybe they've heard conflicting voices about Vatican ii, but they know that John Paul. They trust John Paul ii. To those people who see John Paul II as a hero and as a beloved pontiff, a holy saint, and yet they hear voices talking about Vatican ii? How could you reassure them in light of those two things that they hold for people who love John Paul ii, how can they trust the Second Vatican Council?

[Douglas Bushman]

That's a great question. So George Weigel's great biography is Witness to Hope, Hope in the Carmelite Spirituality. And he did his Doctorate on faith according to St. John of the Cross in Carmelite spirituality, the virtue of hope needs to be purified. It's really part of the dark night. And I think we're going through a time like that. Our cultures are changing so rapidly, and secularization has swept through Western Europe and North America especially so quickly, that people are looking for a causal explanation. Well, let's see what's happened recently. Oh, it's Vatican ii, you see. So I really love to talk to people like this because you can see their minds are at work. And God made us to look for causal explanations. This is how we come to know that God exists even before we have faith, because he's the Creator. And so. But I would look, I want to ask some of the naysayers, with respect to Vatican ii, have you ever been to a vibrant Vatican II diocese or parish? Have you looked at the holy families? Have you looked at the number of vocations to the priesthood and to religious life that are coming out of these parishes, these dioceses, and these movements that are so profoundly inspired by the Second Vatican Council and the popes who dedicated themselves to implementing it? That can't be the work of the world. That cannot be the work of the devil. That has to be the work of the Holy Spirit. And so there's conflicting evidence here. If you choose to only look at the negatives, well, that's your decision. But there's. I tell my students this. To be a disciple of Christ is. It's so demanding, and you're going to experience great emotional swings in your life. If right now we decided to focus on persecutions in the church and scandals that are taking place, we can do that. And then that should drive us to the Eucharist. That should put us on our knees and participating in Christ's paschal charity. But if we want to, we can think of how many baptisms there have been just today, how many holy marriages, how many retreats, how many conversions, and how many martyrs who loved to the end, like our Lord himself. And so the signs of the times are always a mixture of light and darkness. Why not look to the light? But most importantly, why not look to those bishops, those priests, those deacons, those holy men and women and religious who have read the documents, studied them, implemented them, and followed the lead of our holy popes, and who are really bearing witness to the good news? One last scriptural text that I think of this theme that starts in the Book of Exodus, when many of the people start to lose hope, especially when they get thirsty or things are not looking so good, and they grumble against Moses. But God takes it personally. God always takes grumbling against his messengers. And the ones I'm going to focus on right now are the successors of the apostles. And I'm going to focus especially on those that were gathered over four years at Vatican II and the popes who implemented it. There's a lot of grumbling going on in the church, and Holy Scripture has a lot to say. That kind of grumbling is taken by God as a lack of faith. So ultimately, we're talking about these two virtues. First, people get disillusioned and their hope is being tested. But because hope is built on faith, ultimately it's a question of our faith and Christ's promises to be with the Church and to send the Holy Spirit to guide her. Wow.

[Tim Gray]

Douglas, thank you so much for that explanation. Because I think that if people who. And there's so many people out there who love St. John Paul II and they love and they know him as a great saint, and they hear these, as you said, the bad news, you know, I think of in January of this year, Roy Baumeister, who's a sociologist, psychologist, wrote a book called the Power of Bad, and it showed how bad news travels at a rate of three to four times good news. And we have a sense that we overweight the bad news by three to four times is what he's showing. And all these different fascinating studies, and people are focused right now. There is bad, but there's also good. And we are overly focused on the bad. And that's one of the great things about St. John Paul II, because he talked about a new springtime for the church. And if you think, here's this great pope, he's calling, there's going to be a springtime, and he's announcing the springtime. Well, spring follows what season? Winter. Right. But he didn't go around saying it's winter, it's winter. He talked about the spring, and how can we be agents of the spring? And that's what we all need to be. And so, on this feast on October 22nd of St. John Paul II, let's pray to God that he will fill us with supernatural hope, which is different from optimism, supernatural hope, and supernatural faith that we can imitate St. John Paul II's magnanimity, his greatness of heart and soul, so that we too, could become agents of the springtime rather than prophets of the winter. We don't need prophets of the winter in the midst of winter. We need those who can foresee and be agents of the Spring. Well, thank you so much for joining us on our form now show. It's been a great pleasure, Douglas, to have you on. It's always a joy to talk to you, Douglas, because you're such an expert on St. John Paul II and the Second Vatican Council. I hope you've been blessed by this and I want to thank everybody who's in our mission circle who supports our mission. Thank you and God Bless.

[Narrator]

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