St. John the Baptist

Summary

Podcast Summary: Catholic Saints – Episode on St. John the Baptist

Podcast Information:

• Title: Catholic Saints
• Host: Augustine Institute (Taylor Kemp)
• Guest: Dr. John Seehorn
• Episode: St. John the Baptist
• Release Date: June 24, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Catholic Saints, host Taylor Kemp engages in a profound discussion with Dr. John Seehorn from the Augustine Institute. The focus of their conversation centers on St. John the Baptist, exploring his unique place in Catholic tradition, the significance of celebrating his nativity, and his pivotal role in the life of Jesus Christ.

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Celebrating the Nativity of St. John the Baptist

Taylor Kemp opens the dialogue by questioning the rarity of celebrating a birthday within biblical narratives. He notes, “[00:54] Dr. John Seehorn: But this is not the question you asked me. You asked me why we celebrate John's birthday. Yeah.”

Dr. John Seehorn explains that only three birthday celebrations are recognized by the Catholic Church: Jesus Christ on December 25th, the Blessed Virgin Mary on September 8th, and St. John the Baptist on June 24th. He emphasizes John's exceptional status, citing Jesus' acknowledgment of him as “the greatest to be born of woman” (John 1:6)[02:30].

The discussion delves into the theological significance of these celebrations, highlighting that each of these figures was either cleansed of sin or preserved from original sin from the moment of conception. Dr. Seehorn elaborates, “[04:24] because all three of them are born having already either been cleansed of sin or having been preserved from original sin.”

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Biblical Foundations and Prophetic Role

The conversation transitions to the biblical foundations of John the Baptist's mission. Dr. Seehorn references Luke 1, where the angel Gabriel announces John's birth, underscoring his divine mission to prepare the way for Jesus. He reflects, “[09:05]...the son that Zechariah and Elizabeth are to expect is one who has this special mission.”

They explore Isaiah's prophecies, particularly Isaiah 40:3, which Luke quotes to describe John as “the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare the way of the Lord” (Luke 3:3)[03:53]. Dr. Seehorn interprets this as a metaphor for John’s role in advocating repentance and smoothing the spiritual path for believers.

Taylor Kemp adds, “[08:31] it creates a distinction, which those things are important, but it really is an amazing thing. John the Baptist, the story of him being sanctified in the womb, it really is incredible.”

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Liturgical Significance and Symbolism

The hosts discuss the symbolic timing of John’s nativity on June 24th, coinciding with the summer solstice—the longest day of the year. Dr. Seehorn connects this with June 24th being “just around the summer solstice” and Jesus’ birth near the winter solstice, symbolizing the decrease of John (light) and the increase of Jesus (the true Light)[07:37].

Taylor Kemp remarks on the cosmic symbolism, “[08:54] And the fact that this is set up between the summer solstice and the winter solstice, that everything is proclaiming the truths that...”

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John the Baptist’s Ministry and Legacy

Dr. Seehorn delves deeper into John's ministry, referencing Luke chapter 3, where John preaches a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He highlights John’s role as a prophet and his alignment with Old Testament traditions, stating, “[12:19] And that's not common normally in the Gospels. They typically don't share many Old Testament verses verbatim.”

The conversation touches on John’s humility and his acknowledgment of Jesus’ superior mission: “[07:37] Taylor Kemp: The bridegroom line. [07:39] Dr. John Seehorn: Right after that, when he says he must. [07:42] Dr. John Seehorn: He must increase, and I must decrease.”

They also explore John’s unique position as a bridge between the Old and New Testaments, preparing the way not only for Jesus’ ministry but also his passion and death. Dr. Seehorn notes, “[21:12]...he is the bookend of it. It's happened like he is. He is.”

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Martyrdom and Fidelity

The hosts reflect on John’s martyrdom, his unwavering fidelity, and how it parallels Jesus’ own sacrifice. Dr. Seehorn connects John’s death to his role as a witness to marital fidelity and Jesus’ death as the embodiment of divine fidelity: “[20:39]...both of them, you could say, are martyrs to Fidelity.”

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Conclusion

Taylor Kemp and Dr. John Seehorn conclude the episode by emphasizing the profound impact of John the Baptist’s life and ministry. They encourage listeners to engage deeply with the Gospel accounts to fully appreciate John’s role in salvation history.

Dr. John Seehorn encapsulates the essence of John’s mission: “[23:19] There is something about the connections between the Old and New Testament are just amazing...”

Taylor Kemp agrees, highlighting John’s enduring message: “[23:42]...his famous parting words, as you pointed out, that are just... the goal of our lives is the death to selves of all of the habitual attachments to sin so that Christ may live in us.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of St. John the Baptist’s life, his theological significance, and his enduring legacy within the Catholic faith. Through engaging dialogue and scriptural insights, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for John's pivotal role in preparing the way for Jesus Christ.

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Notable Quotes:

• “[06:35] Dr. John Seehorn: It really is incredible.”
• “[07:37] Taylor Kemp: The bridegroom line.”
• “[12:19] Taylor Kemp: And that's not common normally in the Gospels.”
• “[23:19] Dr. John Seehorn: Maybe not. So there is so much more to say.”

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Further Engagement:

Listeners are encouraged to watch the video interviews on formed.org and support the mission of the Augustine Institute by becoming a Mission Circle Partner at missioncircle.org.

Transcript

[Taylor Kemp]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Catholic Saints. I am Taylor Kemp, the director of Formed, and with me is the illustrious Dr. John Seehorn. Would you agree with that adjective?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

I'll take it.

[Taylor Kemp]

Nice. Illustrious. Okay. So this is Dr. John Seehorn. Dr. Seehorn, what do you do here at the graduate school?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Well, nothing illustrious. I'm illustrious for other reasons, of course. Here at the graduate school. Well, I've just been blessed to be a member of the faculty here for almost eight years. And I also serve as the academic dean.

[Taylor Kemp]

Very nice. How is your dean, Dean Hood?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

It's not illustrious, but it seems to be adequate.

[Taylor Kemp]

I hope that is very good. So today we are talking about St. John the Baptist and more specifically, the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, which we celebrate on June 24th. It is a unusual thing to celebrate a birthday. Why? Why would we do this?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

It is. Yeah. No, it's funny, Taylor, you and I were talking before, before the camera started, about the fact that only three people in the Bible are said to celebrate their birthdays.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yes. And.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

And they're not good people. Right. In the Old Testament, Pharaoh celebrates his birthday in the book of Genesis. In the New Testament, Herod Antipas actually celebrates his birthday, and that's the occasion when he's gonna put John the Baptist to death. And then also in the Old Testament, Antiochus Epiphanes, the one who desecrated the temple and led to the Maccabees uprising, he celebrated his birthday every month. Oh, how about that?

[Taylor Kemp]

Interesting. That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

But this is not the question you asked me. You asked me why we celebrate John's birthday. Yeah. John. John is really special. Jesus, when he's asked about John, says that he's the greatest to be born of woman.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

That's a big deal, right? And that he's a prophet. And more than a prophet. And even just if you think about the way that John is introduced in a couple of the Gospels. Anyway, I always think about John, Chapter one, verse six. I used to tell people this is my favor verse in the Bible because it says there was a man who was sent from God. His name was John.

[Taylor Kemp]

Nice. Which John? You decide.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Well, I was raised Baptist, so I was John the Baptist, so it worked really well for me. Isn't that great? That's pretty good. Yeah, but there's actually. There's more to it than that. That's in John's Gospel. In Luke's Gospel, we read about the visitation, right? That after Elizabeth, in her old age, has conceived John, and now she's in her sixth month. And then Mary receives the Annunciation from Gabriel, and she conceives Jesus virginally, and her woman goes to visit her kinswoman, Elizabeth. And when she arrives, it says in Luke chapter 1, verse 41, that when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, it's a really beautiful thing, hearing the voice of Our lady, the child leaped in her womb, John the Baptist leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Now, this verse is actually already a fulfillment to something that the angel Gabriel had said to John's father Zechariah earlier In Luke chapter one, in verse 15, he says he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. Okay. And this actually is why we celebrate not only the day of his death, we also do that on August 29th. We celebrate the martyrdom, the beheading of John the Baptist, but we celebrate his earthly birth. And it's one of only three birthdays that the church celebrates.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah, that's. And so the others being, I think, you know. Okay, well, the Blessed Virgin Mary, our blessed mother.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah. September 8th, and Jesus Christ on Christmas, December 25th. Okay. You nailed it.

[Taylor Kemp]

Nailed it.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah. Taylor used to be my student, so it's still close to me. It's nice to see that he hasn't.

[Taylor Kemp]

Some of it has remained.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Some of it has remained. He knows that Christmas is Jesus birthday. That's true. That's really good.

[Taylor Kemp]

It is good. But, yeah. So why these three? Well, okay, Jesus's is the most obvious, perhaps. But why do we celebrate the birth of our Blessed Mother and the birth of St. John the Baptist?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah. Because all three of them are born having already either been cleansed of sin or having been preserved from original sin. So in the case of Jesus and Mary, both of them, of course, are conceived without sin. Right. Something we celebrate in the case of Jesus on Annunciation on March 25 is exactly nine months before December 25, when we celebrate his birth. And then again in the case of Mary, whose immaculate conception, we celebrate on December 8, when she's conceived in the normal way, but preserved from original sin in the womb of her mother, St. Anne. And then we celebrate her birthday on September 8th, exactly nine months later. Now, if you're a really kind of attentive reader of your Bible, you might think that something's a little off here, right? Because in Luke 1, we hear that John is approximate anyway, six months older than Jesus. And, you know, when we celebrate these things liturgically, we're willing to kind of round. You know, it doesn't matter if it's exact, but we don't celebrate his birthday exactly six months before Jesus' right. We celebrate on June 24th. Right. So it's six months and a day before Jesus. So the reason for that is if you think, okay, well, if Jesus is conceived on March 25 and John the Baptist is conceived six months earlier, that would be.

[Taylor Kemp]

Then March 25, we are looking at October, September. September 25.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

September 25. Right, September 25. And then if you go forward nine months, it should be June 25. But we celebrate it one day before that. And that's actually a kind of symbol of John's imperfection, so to speak. The fact that even though he's cleansed of sin, purified of sin, filled with the Holy Spirit, put in a state of grace, all already in the womb, that he was in fact, conceived in original sin.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. So he's just one day less holy.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Just one. But it is.

[Taylor Kemp]

It's one measure.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

It's symbolic. Right?

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. It creates a distinction, which those things are important, but it really is an amazing thing. John the Baptist, the story of him being sanctified in the womb, it really is incredible.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah. And, you know, while we're talking about the kind of beautiful and providential things about the liturgical calendar with respect to this, and there's another kind of beautiful connection between our celebrations of the birth of Jesus and the birth of John the Baptist. Right. So we've just been talking about Luke 1, where we have the annunciation of Gabriel to Zechariah and then his annunciation to Mary, and we have the birth of John the Baptist and then the birth of Jesus. And it's really beautiful. Some scholars talk about them as like a diptych, which is where, like, you have two pictures that kind of hinge, and you're meant to look at them kind of together and to compare and contrast them and so forth. And the pattern over and over with John the Baptist and Jesus is that John the Baptist is great, but Jesus is greater. Right. And that's exactly what he says. Like in Mark's Gospel, there's one coming who is mightier than I, who's greater. And one of the last things that we hear from John the Baptist is found near the end of John, chapter three, Right. Where it's maybe his most famous line. Do you know what it is?

[Taylor Kemp]

The bridegroom line.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Right after that, when he says he must.

[Taylor Kemp]

Oh, he must increase.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

He must increase, and I must decrease. And a lot of people have pointed out that this sort of maps beautifully onto not only what we've already heard about John the Baptist all the way from Gabriel's annunciation of both him and Jesus all the way up to then, but also the way that we celebrate them. Right. Because June 24th is right around the summer solstice. Right. Which is the longest day when the sun is the highest in the sky. And then after the birth of the one who says, I must decrease, the days just become shorter and shorter and shorter until right around the time of Christmas, it's a few days before, but it's close enough. We celebrate the birth of Jesus, and it's the winter solstice, when the sun is the lowest on the horizon, it's the shortest day, and then they begin to increase.

[Taylor Kemp]

The light has come into the world.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah, the light has come into the world. That's exactly right.

[Taylor Kemp]

I remember it's beautiful when you think about the star that leads the three Kings, but I remember Pope Benedict, in his book on the infancy narratives, talks about how all the cosmos speaks of the glory of God and that even the way that this is set up between the summer solstice and the winter solstice, that everything is proclaiming the truths that. That are revealed by God in Scripture and the historical realities of our faith.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Amen. Yeah.

[Taylor Kemp]

Which is beautiful. Okay. So that is why we celebrate his birthday. So what do we know about John the Baptist? Why do we remember him as a saint?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess we could go back once again to Gabriel's Annunciation, to Zechariah. Maybe I'll just read a couple other verses from it. So if you have your Bibles open to Luke chapter one, and maybe, like starting in verse 13, when Zechariah sees the angel who suddenly appeared next to the altar of incense, Zechariah is a priest, and he has the honor on this day of going in and praying in the holy place, not the holy of holies, but in the holy place in the temple, on behalf of the people. And the angel appears, and the angel says to him in verse 13, do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer is heard. And your wife Elizabeth, who had been barren, will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb. And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just to make ready for the Lord a people prepared. Now, this is a really dense sort of set of things here that the angel says, and we could take apart a lot of them. But the basic point here is just this, that the son that Zechariah and Elizabeth are to expect is one who has this special mission. Like I quoted earlier, kind of tongue in cheek, but you know, for reals, John, chapter one, verse six, that this is a man who is sent by God with a particular mission in bringing about this kind of decisive moment of salvation. And it's interesting here to think about some of the Old Testament passages that Gabriel is alluding to. And maybe let's start with Isaiah. So you can kind of stick your finger in Luke and turn back to Isaiah if you like. I'm not going to, though, because Luke goes ahead and quotes it for us at a little later on. So instead of doing that, just turn the page to Luke chapter three. And this is where we begin actually hearing about John's ministry. Right. So we're sort of skipping ahead in time about 30 years. And what we find there is this. Let's start. Oh, gosh, let's start in verse two. In the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, who are sort of placing it historically, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. This is already an interesting way of saying it, that that kind of locution, the word of God or the word of the Lord came to so and so. Is that familiar to you? Where do you usually see that in the Bible?

[Taylor Kemp]

Old Testament prophets. Totally.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Right. So John is being presented here as a prophet, and he went into all the region about the Jordan, the Jordan river, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet. And now he's quoting here from Isaiah chapter 40, starting in verse 3. That verse, by the way, Isaiah 43 is quoted by all four evangelists to describe John the Baptist.

[Taylor Kemp]

And that's not common normally in the Gospels. They typically don't share many Old Testament verses verbatim.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

There's only a handful of things that appear in all four gospels. And this is one of them.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah, and it's kind of one of those. Like, this is important. Like, this is central, very important.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

And I wanted to look at Luke. It's interesting to look at how each of the evangelists does this because there are slight differences that kind of, you know, bring out for us distinctive things about John the Baptist ministry. But I like Luke because he extends the quotation, and he does so for a reason. So he says, the voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare the way of the Lord. Make his paths straight. That's the part that everybody quotes, right? John the Baptist is there. He's a voice. He's a prophetic voice in the wilderness who's preparing the way for Jesus, preparing the way for the one who is himself, the Lord. Right. And how does he do that? It says, every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth. And I love this as a description or a kind of theological, metaphorical explanation of what we've just read that John was actually doing. He was preaching repentance. He was preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. So what do sins appear as, then? Sins are like valleys. They're like divots that you can kind of like fall into, Right. And that are. You can get stuck in. They're like mountains or hills that you have to travel around or try to climb over. And repentance smooths that path. Right? These things that were crooked can be made straight. These things that were rough can be made smooth. Right? So by responding to the prophetic word with faith and repentance, we sort of clear the way in our hearts for the Lord to come and meet us. Right? We remove those obstacles, obstacles that we sort of set up between ourselves and God. And then the kicker is, in Luke 3. 6, he's quoting here from Isaiah 45. And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. That's like a. Oh, totally, right. We're gonna see the salvation of God. That's what John's mission is to do, is to prepare the way so that we can have access to salvation and.

[Taylor Kemp]

To even couch it a little bit more, even in the book of Isaiah. You know, they call the first half of Isaiah the book of woe, the second half of Isaiah the book of glory. But that 40, is this turning point, correct?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we could oversimplify it, but it's clear that something big is happening in 40. Right.

[Taylor Kemp]

And the fact that they're pulling from Isaiah 40. In relation to Christ. Well, in relation to John the Baptist for what he's doing, but in relation, preparing the way. Like, they know that what they're saying about John the Baptist and Christ, it's like, hey, like all these hopes that are wrapped up in the Old Testament, it's like it's here. This is happening.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah. I mean, if we even went to the beginning of Isaiah 40, the very first verse, the first words, nachmu. Nachmu in Hebrew, comfort. Comfort, my people, right? And actually, scholars debate who's being addressed. And some have argued it's the angels, some have argued it's, you know, spokespeople within the people. But the point is everyone's being exhorted to pronounce comfort, to proclaim comfort. Consolation is coming. And it's really interesting because the Greek version of Isaiah 40 uses a particular verb that we might translate. Console. Console, my people. And if you just go back a little bit to Luke, chapter two, verse. Let me see if I can find it. Verse 25, when we meet Simeon right, in the temple, when Mary and Joseph bring Jesus to the temple to present him there before the Lord, it says that there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. And this man was righteous and devout, looking for what? The consolation of Israel. He's looking for what's announced at the beginning of Isaiah 40. And then if you keep reading, because Simeon was a repentant man, right? A righteous and devout man who was looking for this when he holds Jesus, what does he say in chapter two, verses 29 and 30? Lord, now you're letting your servant depart in peace according to your word, for my eyes have seen your salvation. Right? So Simeon is already sort of recognizing what's happening in Jesus. And that's the mission that John has, is to prepare the way so that we can be like Simeon.

[Taylor Kemp]

There's something about the connections between the Old and New Testament are just amazing. And I sometimes think about, like, Luke writing his gospel, and he's. He's heard stories, he's recounting things, but as he's writing it, you would almost be like, this is too just. It's just unbelievable. Like, it's incredible that he would be recounting stories about John the Baptist, things that he would have heard from our blessed mother about the life of Christ. And it's just like seeing how Simeon fits into this same prophecy that they're talking about John the Baptist that's pointing to Christ. Like, oh, my gosh. I mean, it's just amazing.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah, it Is. And that's why Luke gives us Luke in Acts, so that he's trying to help us see the same beautiful tapestry that he sees through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, having learned, as you said, from the Blessed Mother, from Paul, from, you know, whether directly or indirectly from the Blessed Mother. But clearly she's gotta be the source of what we hear here in Luke 1 and 2.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. So it's just incredible. Okay, so the evangelists, they're quoting from Isaiah. They are making a statement about John that he's a prophet crying out in the wilderness. He's calling people to repentance, to smooth this path, very much in a spiritual way. So what else do we know about him? Kind of, where do we go from there?

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Oh, there's just way too much. There's just way too much to say. Let me just say a couple things that I think are crucial. One is the fact that our Lord submitted to the baptism of John.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. Which is quite something.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Yeah. And in Matthew, we even read about him objecting to it. Like, what do you mean? Obviously, you want me to baptize you. I should be baptized by you. Right. And Jesus says, no, this is. It's fitting to do this, to fulfill all righteousness. Because what our Lord comes to do, the way that he comes to us so that we can see the salvation of God in him, is not simply through kind of bringing the fire and brimstone right now. It's by bringing us to this encounter with his mercy right now. There is a judgment. Right. John's not wrong when he says that the one who's coming after me is gonna have his winnowing fork in his hand. But nonetheless, there is this encounter with Christ's mercy. And so I love you mentioned Pope Benedict earlier in his treatment of the Gospels in the first volume of his series on Jesus of Nazareth. When he talks about the baptism, he says that on the banks of the Jordan, our Lord Jesus blended in with the gray mass of sinners. Right. And you put yourself in Jesus position. It's like, I'm the sinless Son of God right now. I want to, you know, show people that I'm nice. Show people I'm merciful. So I'll go down to the Jordan. But like I always tell my students, if it were me, I'd put on, like, a sandwich board with Christmas lights that says, not a sinner. Right. Like, nobody get the wrong idea here. Not with them. And yet our Lord goes and is baptized among the sinners, not because he's a sinner, but because he identifies with sinners precisely in order to bring us a repentance that will genuinely cleanse us, that will genuinely bring us into his own relationship with the Father. So what a beautiful thing that John gets to do there. And then what do we have when he's baptized? But this revelation of the Trinity, right? The heavens are opened, the Father, the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus in the form of a dove. And the Father says, this is my beloved Son, right? So John the Baptist is in some ways this sort of bridge figure between the Old Testament and the New Testament, right? He gathers up in himself the whole tradition of Israel's prophecy. And then we see him in a certain sense, then, you know, well, sort of receding. I must decrease, he must increase. I've done my job, I'm rejoicing, right? To see that the bridegroom has come.

[Taylor Kemp]

And he's embodying Israel in that, that Israel, the mission of Israel was to be a light to the nations, was to bring worldwide blessing through the posterity of Abraham. But they were there to prepare the way for the Messiah. And then John the Baptist, like in his person, he's the bookend of it. It's happened like he is. He is. That's Israel's mission was this. And then he embodies that in a different but similar way as like Our lady embodies the church, but he embodies Israel here and then says, it's time. Yeah, the time has come.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

The time has come. Yeah. Now we didn't even get into the other things that happened with his arrest by Herod Antipas, his death. Maybe we could just say this, that, you know, we talk about John as the forerunner of Jesus, right? He's proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is going to send his disciples at the end of Luke to go and preach a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. That's what we see them doing on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter two. And it's a greater baptism, right? But there's that continuity where John is preparing the way for Jesus in his ministry, but he also prepares the way for Jesus in his death. And you can just imagine John in prison at the Machaerus fortress. That's where Josephus tells us that Herod, that Herod Antipas kept him in that darkness. And even if he didn't fully understand it, in a way anticipating in himself the darkness that was going to enshroud Jesus, right? And both of them, you could say, are martyrs to Fidelity. Right. John is arrested because he calls out Herod Antipas for taking his brother's wife. So John dies as a witness to marital fidelity. And why does Jesus die? Because he is the bridegroom and he is the one who perfectly embodies the fidelity of God to his people, the Divine Spouse to his human wife. And that's actually what redeems us. So, again, it's really beautiful. And I would invite anybody who's watching, who's never really spent a lot of time with John the Baptist, to take some time at each of the four Gospels with the passages that have to do with John and really befriend him. Right. In the Eastern churches, devotion to John the Baptist has remained maybe a lot more intense and prominent than it has.

[Taylor Kemp]

Because they like the wilderness and beards and locusts and honey.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

They do. Yeah. There are more than that. There are some great beards. Yeah. You know, we're doing okay here, Taylor.

[Taylor Kemp]

I don't know. This wouldn't hold up in the Eastern.

[Dr. John Seehorn]

Maybe not. So there is so much more to say. Right. John the Baptist is mysterious figure, but I find him to be a profoundly moving and challenging figure who really can call all of us to a deeper fidelity to Jesus, to a deeper repentance. Right. To remove those hills and valleys that might obstruct our relationship with God and ultimately to bring us into a deeper intimacy with him.

[Taylor Kemp]

Yeah. And his famous parting words, as you pointed out, that are just. This could be just such an abiding message, but a great one from John the Baptist is he must increase, we must decrease that. The goal of our lives is the death to selves of all of the habitual attachments to sin so that Christ may live in us. And that his whole life proclaimed that and that it's just such a. It's great. So thank you, Dr. Seehorn. This was a wonderful kind of dive into John the Baptist. There's a lot more that can be said for sure, but perhaps, perhaps another time. So thank you everyone for joining us. We will see you next time on Catholic Saints. You can watch these interviews in video format by visiting form.org formed is an online Catholic streaming service created by the Augustan Institute and Ignatius Press, with award winning studies and parish programs, inspiring audio content, movies, ebooks, and family friendly kids programming to support the mission of the Augustan institute. Please visit missioncircle.org.