Catholic Saints Podcast - St. Joseph of Cupertino
Augustine Institute | Host: Tim Gray with guest Dr. Sean Innerst
Episode Date: September 18, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim Gray, president of the Augustine Institute, and Dr. Sean Innerst, professor and co-founder of the Institute, explore the life and legacy of St. Joseph of Cupertino. The conversation delves into Joseph’s humble origins, his struggles and repeated rejections, mystical experiences—especially his famous levitations—and his significance for modern listeners. Woven throughout are reflections on Franciscan spirituality, humility, and the paradoxical strength in weakness as modeled by St. Joseph.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Historical Context—The Franciscan Order’s Evolution

• Dr. Innerst gives a historical overview of the Franciscan Order, highlighting its split into Observants, Conventuals, and later Capuchins.
  • Observants aimed to closely follow St. Francis’ original, radical vision: small groups, poverty, and itinerant ministry.
  • Conventuals, where Joseph ended up, favored larger communities and more property, which was perceived as a departure from Francis’ ideal.
    • “Large convents require, you know, endowments and things like that and cozy relationships with benefactors.” (01:36 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Capuchins ultimately represented a return to stricter observance and even designed habits reflecting the original Franciscan style (04:25).

2. The Life of St. Joseph of Cupertino

• Born in 1603 in abject poverty in the Kingdom of Naples; his father died before his birth, leaving significant debts.
  • “Joseph is actually born in a stable, which is an interesting, you know, Christological connection. So he, like his master, he's born in a stable.” (05:30 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• His earliest years were marked by simplicity, poverty, and lack of education.
  • “He had difficulties. He was apparently somewhat inept, incompetent… Not educated, yeah. Obviously coming from poverty.” (09:08 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

3. Trials, Rejection, and Perseverance

• Multiple rejections upon seeking to join the Franciscans. Both Conventuals and Capuchins turned him away (primarily for lack of education and the disruptive nature of his ecstatic visions).
  • “He tried to enter because he didn't have education as a lay brother… And if you're falling into ecstasy all the time, which was the case with St. Joseph…that only sort of added to his ineptitude and his poor kid capacities.” (09:23 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Eventually, Joseph was allowed to live and work as a stable hand—a humbling return to his literal birthplace.
  • “So full circle, he returns to the stable from which he originally came.” (12:08 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• His humility and perseverance led the Conventuals to eventually accept him. He became a priest against all odds.
  • “He finally settles on not being a Franciscan, and that's what makes him humble enough to be a Franciscan.” (16:12 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

4. Mysticism, Ecstasy, and Levitation

• Joseph experienced frequent ecstatic states from a young age, often lost in contemplation and “agape” (mouth dropped open in awe).
  • “He began having these ecstatic experiences…and actually got the nickname… agape, right? His mouth would just be open because he would fall into ecstasy and lose his sense of what was around him.” (10:46 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Explained by Dr. Innerst as God “capturing the powers” of a person—mind, will, senses—seen also in other saints like Catherine of Siena and Teresa of Avila (11:08).
  • “At the height of mystical evolution, God captures the intellect, captures the will, and fascinates the imagination.” (11:08 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Levitation was a hallmark: over 70 recorded instances, sometimes during Mass or prayer, witnessed by many.
  • “There's a famous story of his rising up above the high altar and assuming a kneeling position, but in midair, right in front of the whole congregation.” (19:18 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• The spiritual symbolism: “God will raise up the lowly” from Mary’s Magnificat (20:10 – Tim Gray).
  • “The minority and, you know, the smallness of Franciscanism, the surrender to God in the pursuit of sanctity, gives one a sort of lightness of being right… Minority means you don't take yourself too seriously.” (20:16 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

5. Levity, Humility, and Biblical Paradoxes

• The Franciscan emphasis on joyful humility—being a “fool for Christ”—and not taking oneself too seriously.
  • “Chesterton says, you know, the angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.” (20:16 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
  • “And I think this idea, this kind of humility and this, you know, kind of becoming or accepting the idea of being a fool for Christ is deeply biblical.” (21:14 – Tim Gray)
• St. Joseph’s levitation was seen not merely as a personal gift but also as a visual aid for the Church—a reminder of God’s grace and the destiny that awaits all followers drawn to Him.
  • “In so doing, [God] sort of demonstrates that that's what he desires for everyone. Is that kind of levity, right? To be drawn up, to be lifted up? As Jesus says, when I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself.” (27:21 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

6. Lessons from St. Joseph of Cupertino

• For seminarians: he’s invoked as patron of students, especially during exams, as his own theological examination presented just the one question he knew (28:07).
• For all Christians: he exemplifies humility, perseverance, and joy in littleness.
  • “St. Joseph Cupertino, even though he's a levitator, keeps us grounded, right? Keeps… He reminds us that that minority is the real root of sanctity.” (28:36 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
  • “He reminds us that… not taking yourself too seriously is the way in which we fly to God, not by considering ourselves grave and important and holy.” (28:45 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

Memorable Quotes

• On poverty and Christ's humility:
  “St. Joseph is actually born in a stable… So he, like his master, he's born in a stable. And that points towards… the trajectory of Franciscan minority, simplicity, poverty…” (05:30 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• On mystical ecstasy:
  “He began having these ecstatic experiences and… got the nickname of… agape, right? His mouth would just be open because he would fall into ecstasy and lose his sense of what was around him…” (10:46 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• Explaining levitation:
  “Sometimes [God] captures the whole physicality of a person and will literally lift them up in the air. And this also happened to St. Teresa of Avila… She realized that she was so fragile and small a creature that it is nothing for him to just lift her up.” (18:20 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• On humility and levity:
  “Chesterton says, you know, the angels can fly because they take themselves lightly. Right. And it falls into the same pattern as we were saying, right, that minority and… the smallness of Franciscanism… gives one a sort of lightness of being right. Minority means you don't take yourself too seriously.” (20:16 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• On the lesson for listeners:
  “He reminds us that… not taking yourself too seriously is the way in which we fly to God, not by considering ourselves grave and important and holy.” (28:45 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

Notable Segment Timestamps

• [01:13] - Franciscan order splits: Observants, Conventuals, Capuchins
• [05:30] - St. Joseph’s birth in a stable; ties to humility and poverty
• [09:04] - Early life struggles, rejection, and seeking to join Franciscan groups
• [11:08] - Explanation of mystical ecstasy
• [18:12] - Accounts of public levitation
• [20:16] - Chesterton’s quote on angelic levity and taking oneself lightly
• [28:07] - St. Joseph as patron of students and his “infused knowledge”
• [29:00] - Closing reflection on humility, levity, and the call to joy

Final Takeaways

St. Joseph of Cupertino’s life is a moving testament to God’s preference for the humble, simple, and overlooked. By embracing his weaknesses and not taking himself seriously, Joseph became a powerful sign of God’s ability to transform littleness into greatness—the lowly lifted high, quite literally. The episode encourages listeners to embrace humility, cultivate spiritual joy, and remember that sanctity is found precisely through what the world may undervalue.