St. Joseph of Cupertino

Summary

Catholic Saints Podcast - St. Joseph of Cupertino
Augustine Institute | Host: Tim Gray with guest Dr. Sean Innerst
Episode Date: September 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim Gray, president of the Augustine Institute, and Dr. Sean Innerst, professor and co-founder of the Institute, explore the life and legacy of St. Joseph of Cupertino. The conversation delves into Joseph’s humble origins, his struggles and repeated rejections, mystical experiences—especially his famous levitations—and his significance for modern listeners. Woven throughout are reflections on Franciscan spirituality, humility, and the paradoxical strength in weakness as modeled by St. Joseph.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Historical Context—The Franciscan Order’s Evolution

• Dr. Innerst gives a historical overview of the Franciscan Order, highlighting its split into Observants, Conventuals, and later Capuchins.
  • Observants aimed to closely follow St. Francis’ original, radical vision: small groups, poverty, and itinerant ministry.
  • Conventuals, where Joseph ended up, favored larger communities and more property, which was perceived as a departure from Francis’ ideal.
    • “Large convents require, you know, endowments and things like that and cozy relationships with benefactors.” (01:36 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Capuchins ultimately represented a return to stricter observance and even designed habits reflecting the original Franciscan style (04:25).

2. The Life of St. Joseph of Cupertino

• Born in 1603 in abject poverty in the Kingdom of Naples; his father died before his birth, leaving significant debts.
  • “Joseph is actually born in a stable, which is an interesting, you know, Christological connection. So he, like his master, he's born in a stable.” (05:30 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• His earliest years were marked by simplicity, poverty, and lack of education.
  • “He had difficulties. He was apparently somewhat inept, incompetent… Not educated, yeah. Obviously coming from poverty.” (09:08 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

3. Trials, Rejection, and Perseverance

• Multiple rejections upon seeking to join the Franciscans. Both Conventuals and Capuchins turned him away (primarily for lack of education and the disruptive nature of his ecstatic visions).
  • “He tried to enter because he didn't have education as a lay brother… And if you're falling into ecstasy all the time, which was the case with St. Joseph…that only sort of added to his ineptitude and his poor kid capacities.” (09:23 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Eventually, Joseph was allowed to live and work as a stable hand—a humbling return to his literal birthplace.
  • “So full circle, he returns to the stable from which he originally came.” (12:08 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• His humility and perseverance led the Conventuals to eventually accept him. He became a priest against all odds.
  • “He finally settles on not being a Franciscan, and that's what makes him humble enough to be a Franciscan.” (16:12 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

4. Mysticism, Ecstasy, and Levitation

• Joseph experienced frequent ecstatic states from a young age, often lost in contemplation and “agape” (mouth dropped open in awe).
  • “He began having these ecstatic experiences…and actually got the nickname… agape, right? His mouth would just be open because he would fall into ecstasy and lose his sense of what was around him.” (10:46 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Explained by Dr. Innerst as God “capturing the powers” of a person—mind, will, senses—seen also in other saints like Catherine of Siena and Teresa of Avila (11:08).
  • “At the height of mystical evolution, God captures the intellect, captures the will, and fascinates the imagination.” (11:08 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• Levitation was a hallmark: over 70 recorded instances, sometimes during Mass or prayer, witnessed by many.
  • “There's a famous story of his rising up above the high altar and assuming a kneeling position, but in midair, right in front of the whole congregation.” (19:18 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
• The spiritual symbolism: “God will raise up the lowly” from Mary’s Magnificat (20:10 – Tim Gray).
  • “The minority and, you know, the smallness of Franciscanism, the surrender to God in the pursuit of sanctity, gives one a sort of lightness of being right… Minority means you don't take yourself too seriously.” (20:16 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

5. Levity, Humility, and Biblical Paradoxes

• The Franciscan emphasis on joyful humility—being a “fool for Christ”—and not taking oneself too seriously.
  • “Chesterton says, you know, the angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.” (20:16 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
  • “And I think this idea, this kind of humility and this, you know, kind of becoming or accepting the idea of being a fool for Christ is deeply biblical.” (21:14 – Tim Gray)
• St. Joseph’s levitation was seen not merely as a personal gift but also as a visual aid for the Church—a reminder of God’s grace and the destiny that awaits all followers drawn to Him.
  • “In so doing, [God] sort of demonstrates that that's what he desires for everyone. Is that kind of levity, right? To be drawn up, to be lifted up? As Jesus says, when I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself.” (27:21 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

6. Lessons from St. Joseph of Cupertino

• For seminarians: he’s invoked as patron of students, especially during exams, as his own theological examination presented just the one question he knew (28:07).
• For all Christians: he exemplifies humility, perseverance, and joy in littleness.
  • “St. Joseph Cupertino, even though he's a levitator, keeps us grounded, right? Keeps… He reminds us that that minority is the real root of sanctity.” (28:36 – Dr. Sean Innerst)
  • “He reminds us that… not taking yourself too seriously is the way in which we fly to God, not by considering ourselves grave and important and holy.” (28:45 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

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Memorable Quotes

• On poverty and Christ's humility:
  “St. Joseph is actually born in a stable… So he, like his master, he's born in a stable. And that points towards… the trajectory of Franciscan minority, simplicity, poverty…” (05:30 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• On mystical ecstasy:
  “He began having these ecstatic experiences and… got the nickname of… agape, right? His mouth would just be open because he would fall into ecstasy and lose his sense of what was around him…” (10:46 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• Explaining levitation:
  “Sometimes [God] captures the whole physicality of a person and will literally lift them up in the air. And this also happened to St. Teresa of Avila… She realized that she was so fragile and small a creature that it is nothing for him to just lift her up.” (18:20 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• On humility and levity:
  “Chesterton says, you know, the angels can fly because they take themselves lightly. Right. And it falls into the same pattern as we were saying, right, that minority and… the smallness of Franciscanism… gives one a sort of lightness of being right. Minority means you don't take yourself too seriously.” (20:16 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

• On the lesson for listeners:
  “He reminds us that… not taking yourself too seriously is the way in which we fly to God, not by considering ourselves grave and important and holy.” (28:45 – Dr. Sean Innerst)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

• [01:13] - Franciscan order splits: Observants, Conventuals, Capuchins
• [05:30] - St. Joseph’s birth in a stable; ties to humility and poverty
• [09:04] - Early life struggles, rejection, and seeking to join Franciscan groups
• [11:08] - Explanation of mystical ecstasy
• [18:12] - Accounts of public levitation
• [20:16] - Chesterton’s quote on angelic levity and taking oneself lightly
• [28:07] - St. Joseph as patron of students and his “infused knowledge”
• [29:00] - Closing reflection on humility, levity, and the call to joy

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Final Takeaways

St. Joseph of Cupertino’s life is a moving testament to God’s preference for the humble, simple, and overlooked. By embracing his weaknesses and not taking himself seriously, Joseph became a powerful sign of God’s ability to transform littleness into greatness—the lowly lifted high, quite literally. The episode encourages listeners to embrace humility, cultivate spiritual joy, and remember that sanctity is found precisely through what the world may undervalue.

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Transcript

[Narrator]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith.

[Tim Gray]

Welcome to form Now, I'm Tim Gray, president of the Augustine Institute, and joining me is a special guest and a dear friend, Dr. Sean Innerst, who is a professor here at the Augusta Institute, as well as at St. John Vianney Seminary in Denver. And Sean is also one of the co founders of the August Institute. He was here at the very beginning of the founding of the Augusta Institute and was one of our pillars. And we're going to talk about St. Joseph of Cupertino. St. Joseph is an interesting Franciscan, and he was a simple soul, a holy soul, and probably the best thing to do. You know, he's right at the beginning of the 17th century. And so maybe we want to place. Place him where he's at as a Franciscan at the beginning of the story of what's going on with the Franciscan Order at that time. Because a lot of people don't know that the Franciscans ended up having some different groupings and some different development in the Franciscan Order. So you want to talk about.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah. The Franciscan movement, which was pretty much a solid, singular expression under what's generally referred to as the Order of Friars Minor, existed in relative peace for about 300 years after Francis. So Francis died in 1226, and the Franciscan Order, which he founded obviously begins about the year 1209, 1210, and until about the time of the Reformation, actually, they really did have a kind of unified expression under that one title, Order of Friars Minor. And it's not until certain tensions developed, we'll say, between that group which is referred to as the Observance, and those which are called conventuals. So the Conventuals is The group that St. Joseph Cupertino belongs to. And they were thought to be somewhat lax at the time because they wanted to live in larger groupings. And larger groupings tend towards more property, more property. Something that looks more like monasticism than the kind of ideal that St. Francis had in mind when he founded the order, which is very small groups of men living in poverty together, hand to mouth, really, and without property. Large convents require, you know, endowments and things like that and cozy relationships with benefactors and that sort of thing. So there were two movements, really, the Conventuals. And then later on, the group that we call the Capuchins came to be called the Capuchins, who were strong observance of the original rule of St. Francis. And the Capuchins and the conventuals actually come to be recognized as separate religious orders, although under the title of Friars Minor about this time, a little earlier 16th century, by the time we get to St. Joseph in the 17th century, these are stable divisions in the Franciscan family. Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

So the ones who are trying to be Observant, they're trying to really. They probably see themselves as more radically going back to Francis charisma, what he really wanted.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

That's right.

[Tim Gray]

And smaller groups, probably more itinerant.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah, yeah. Several elements which were common to the original primitive Franciscan ideal, as we just mentioned, smaller groupings. The capuchins, when they break away, it's part of their rule that they want to have eight to 12 friars in each friary. No more. They want to have hermitages, because part of the Franciscan ideal was being able to get away for extended periods of prayer. Once again, conventual life tends to be less ere medical, as the term goes.

[Tim Gray]

Right.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Less the spirit and charism of the hermit. So it's the capuchins, even in their habit. Actually, the capuchins have a habit which is distinct from the OFMs, because they don't have this little kappa thing here. They have a long hood which is attached to the habit, and that's a very important thing. This is supposed to be the original kind of habit that St. Francis wore. And that's a kind of badge or emblem of their desire to return to the original charism of Francis, who famously said that the rule he had written should be followed, as he said, sine glossa in the Latin, without gloss, without apology, without interpretation, simply do what I have suggested must be done as a part of this charism I've received from God.

[Tim Gray]

Well, now, let's take it back to, obviously, the early 17th century St. Joseph Cupertino. He's. He's born, what, 1603.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

1603.

[Tim Gray]

And very poor family.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

Very simple family in Italy.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yep. So actually born Cupertino's on the heel of the boot.

[Tim Gray]

The heel of the boot, yeah.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

So it's southeastern, the old Naples region, the Kingdom of Naples at the time. And he is born in abject poverty. His. His father died before he was born and had piled up some debts. And so Joseph is actually born in a stable, which is an interesting, you know, Christological connection. So he, like his master, he's born in a stable. And that points towards his, I would say, predilection for. For the Franciscan charism. Right. Because it sort of suggests the trajectory of Franciscan minority, simplicity, poverty, that sort of thing. So this Is a. Yeah, it's a landmark.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah. When you think about being born in a stable, I think of the Nativity sets.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

And of course, St. Francis is the.

[Tim Gray]

One who started that whole devotion or that whole practice of having a Nativity set.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

Because he's so. Yeah. Talk about the Christmas. That was really a big part of his spirituality. He was the originator of it.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yes. Yes, it really was. He's a. You know, in Franciscanism, they refer to the crib and the cross. Right. So the poverty of Bethlehem is part of the, you could say, moral imagination of Franciscanism. The idea that. That our Lord enters his incarnation in the poverty of the stable. And it's really sensory. The idea of the sweet smell of the hay, the warmth of the animals, the simplicity of that domestic, agrarian kind of scene fires the imagination of Francis. And. And in a certain sense, he's always returning there. And that special celebration of Christmas with the creche, he's typically seen garbed as a deacon, because Francis was actually a deacon. And he's seen typically garbed as a deacon in the presentation of the Christmas creche as a kind of critical part of the original kerygma, or proclamation of the faith, is the poverty of our Savior. And so that's one of the reasons, I think, why it filled his imagination so vitally.

[Tim Gray]

I love that. Because Francis himself, coming from a family of wealth and means, he ends up giving all that away. But he's even more blown away that his Lord and savior, Jesus, the Son of God, gives up all privileges, titles and luxury to become impoverished for our sake by his poverty.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

We.

[Tim Gray]

We are made rich. And so it's so stunning that St. Joseph of Cupertino is born in a stable and he's going to become a Franciscan. So talk about St. Joseph in his early years. He's a simple lad, and I think, if I remember the story, he tries to join the Franciscans and kind of gets rebuffed and kind of kicked out of several different groups.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yes, he does.

[Tim Gray]

He kind of bounces around. He didn't think he was worthy. Right.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Well. And probably in an earthly sense, he wasn't. You know, he had difficulties. He was apparently somewhat inept, incompetent.

[Tim Gray]

You know, not educated.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Not educated, yeah. Obviously coming from poverty. And that was the original reason for his rejection by the Conventuals, the group he actually ends up spending his life with. The Conventuals originally sent him away because he lacks education. He goes and tries with the Capuchins, and the Capuchins send him away because he apparently fell into ecstasy too often, which is an odd impediment to religious life, you'd think. But he, he tried to enter because he didn't have education as a lay brother, so without the intention of seeking priestly ordination. And lay brothers are supposed to get stuff done, wash the dishes and be very practical. And if you're falling into ecstasy all the time, which was the case with St. Joseph from a very early age, from 8 apparently, he began having these ecstatic experiences and, and actually got the nickname of, well, what the Italian means is agape, right? His mouth would just be open because he would fall into ecstasy and lose his sense of what was around him, which only sort of added to his ineptitude and his poor kid capacities.

[Tim Gray]

If he's a bit clumsy, not as well educated and sharp and. And so you're probably worried about his mental acuity. And all of a sudden, every time he prays or reflects, it seems that he's going into these ecstasies. Explain for everybody, Sean, a little bit more what this means. When does he go into ecstasy and what does that mean?

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Well, these ecstatic states are common for people in advanced stages of the spiritual life. And what it really involves is God's capturing the powers of the person with whom he is entering into a deeper relationship. So spiritual theology teaches us that at the height of mystical evolution, God captures the intellect, captures the will, and fascinates the imagination. So God basically makes himself the very center of the attention of the person who falls into the state. And it's happened in the lives of many Saints. You know, St. Catherine of Siena would fall senseless every time she received Holy Communion, for example, she would lie as though dead after receiving Holy Communion. St. Francis had similar things happening to him. He would simply become insensible to external stimuli because he was so entranced by the divine presence and power. And that made him appear to be gape mouthed, right? Just incapable of handling ordinary things in life. He ends up being kicked out of the Capuchins, as I mentioned, and goes back to the conventuals, does so once again, this is sort of full circle in a certain sense. He becomes a stable hand. So he goes back and volunteers, please let me work in your stable, and at least I can live on the margins of Franciscan life. And so full circle, he returns to the stable from which he originally came. And in that circumstance the conventual see his humility, his minority, his sanctity, and they come to appreciate the quality of his soul. And so he is finally accepted into the convent and becomes a brother and eventually a priest. And in rather short order. I mean, apparently they're impressed enough. I think he left the Capuchins in 1620, and he's ordained in 1625. So. So they rather quickly recognize that he's been touched by God.

[Tim Gray]

And this is a different group.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

This is the conventual, but it's the conventionals.

[Tim Gray]

But it's a different group of conventionals than when he first tried to join.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Well, yes, different. Yeah. He moved from convent to convent or monastery to monastery, friary to friary. As a matter of fact, he was bounced around because of his particular gifts for quite a number of years, and actually for almost 35 years was under close watch.

[Tim Gray]

You know, it says something about his character that he keeps getting rejected and rejected, and yet he perseveres. He clearly has a deep sense that he's called to be Franciscan. I mean, he doesn't go and try to join the Dominicans or, you know, he doesn't go searching for the Benedictines. I mean, he really just.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

He.

[Tim Gray]

He really felt called to be Franciscan.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah. And as I said before, I think it's that sense, that humble sense of who he really is before God. And he had. Apart from the difficulties of his clumsiness, ineptitude, lack of social skills, he also had a temper which might not be all that surprising given all the stumbling and dropping of things he's doing. Right. He probably feels as though he's, in a certain sense, being thought little of, which is St. Thomas's definition of anger. You know, it's typically fomented by that kind of sense of one's lowliness. Right. That's often the reason people get angry. And so he had to struggle against that. You know, he didn't volunteer for his. For his minority at first. So it's part of the divine project to come to recognize things which are difficulties, things which humble us as gifts, really. And I think that's what he did. That's what he did.

[Tim Gray]

I love the idea that God uses our very weaknesses to refine us, to sanctify us.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Exactly.

[Tim Gray]

So what, you know, when we think about him going through these different trials of, you know, rejection, rejection, rejection, finally he gets accepted. But I love. Even then, he says, I'll just be a stable boy. I mean, he doesn't say, I deserve to be a Franciscan.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah, no, no, no.

[Tim Gray]

And so he's come to a different level of humility, it seems, at that entry.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

And that's exactly, as I mentioned, what seems to be the refining experience for him. He finally settles on not being a Franciscan, and that's what makes him humble enough to be a Franciscan.

[Tim Gray]

I love it.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah. So, yeah, it's a beautiful story. It's a really beautiful story.

[Tim Gray]

I'm struck when we talk about just the mysticism that he had and these ecstatic experiences. You know, Teresa of Avila talks about how these are gifts from God. One does not work oneself up to. Of course, holiness disposes one, but it doesn't. They're gifts from God. This kind of spiritual union with God, it's pure gift. And when you think about just this humble, simple boy who loses his father before he's born, he is raised in abject poverty, not well educated yet he has a heart for the story of St. Francis and the story that God became simple and humble, and this draws him to Christ. And Christ just seems incredibly lavish in his gifts because Joseph seems to fulfill what Paul talked about in First Corinthians, that God does not choose the wise of the world or the powerful or the eloquent or the great or. But what's lowly and despised. And he really seems to be the poster child for that passage of Corinthians.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Well, yeah, and there are many of those in the Franciscan family just because of its minority. But, you know, and interestingly enough, you know, it's our Blessed Mother's Magnificat where she speaks of lifting up the lowly. And in the end, that's the peculiar charism of St. Joseph of Cupertino. He ends up. Ends up being lifted up and his lowliness, in a certain sense. Well, what we're referring to.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, let's explain this. I got it. That was very funny. He was known for levitating.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

He was known for levitating.

[Tim Gray]

Describe that for people. People aren't used to running into people. Levitating. What does levitating mean?

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Once again, levitation is, in the spiritual life, characteristic of the same dynamic that we were speaking of before, where God captures the powers. Well, he doesn't just capture the spiritual powers. Sometimes he captures the whole physicality of a person and will literally lift them up in the air. And this also happened to St. Teresa of Avila. She says in her autobiography, when she recounts her experience of levitation, that she was very embarrassed by it and asked God to put her down. But she was overwhelmed by the power, the divine power, expressed in the very fact of lifting her off the ground. She recognized God's strength and power in the senses. She realized that she was so fragile and small a creature that it is nothing for him. To just lift her up. And this happened many times in the life of St. Joseph Cupertino. Over 70 recorded instances of his being observed to have risen while saying Mass or while saying the divine office and things like that, or even just at prayer. There's a famous story of his rising up above the high altar and assuming a kneeling position, but in midair, right in front of the whole congregation. And so it's really. It's a remarkable gift. I've never seen anyone levitate. I do know people who have seen people levitate, and they say it's very moving, it's awe inspiring. When you meet somebody of that level of holiness, you can say, yeah, I.

[Tim Gray]

Love the image that you have from Our lady, from her magnificatum.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Gray]

That God will raise up the lowly.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah, yeah. And there's an interesting dimension to this too, that remember, Chesterton says, you know, the angels can fly because they take themselves lightly. Right. And it falls into the same pattern as we were saying, right, that minority and, you know, the smallness of Franciscanism, the surrender to God in the pursuit of sanctity, gives one a sort of lightness of being right. Minority means you don't take yourself too seriously. And this is also characteristic of sort of, you might say, the comedic dimension of Franciscanism. You know, Francis liked to be the clown, you know, the jongleur, the person who would perform in an almost comedic fashion. A fool for Christ is another way.

[Tim Gray]

Of putting that, which I think Francis is intentional in terms of imitating St. Paul in that. Because Paul talks to the Corinthians again, who were puffed up with rank and social status, possessions and all those things that people measure themselves against others by. And Paul will talk about being a fool for Christ's sake. You know, Paul will talk about, hey, we apostles are made a spectacle. You know, you guys are. You Corinthians are esteemed and respectable. But we apostles, we're a spectacle. And we're mocked and we're laughed at and we're fools for Christ's sake. And I think this idea, this kind of humility and this, you know, kind of becoming or accepting the idea of being a fool for Christ is deeply biblical.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah, very much so. Very much so. And obviously, as we were saying before, that was Francis idea and his ideal right. To take the biblical ideal without qualification, without apology, without excuse. And that's very much present in the Franciscan thing going back to Chesterton. He has a beautiful section in his biography of St Francis, which is very much worth Reading. Everybody should read that book. He wrote one on St. Thomas. He wrote one on St. Francis. Ignatius Press publishes them in a single volume, I think. But he speaks of Francis the acrobat. Right. And Francis as sort of standing on his head and in that posture. He says he sees the earth not on its solid foundations, but suspended from the divine power. Right. He speaks of Assisi, you know, this very. You've been there, right? It's a very formidable kind of city. The edifices are stone and ponderous. Right. They're well anchored in the earth, but if you look at them upside down, it looks like they're hanging from heaven, you know? And so he suggests that that's kind of the Franciscan vision, that this vision of minority, of levity, you could even say. Right. Of seeing the world almost humorously because of its frailty and the fact that in a very real sense, we're suspended in being by the divine power and from the divine power and at the divine will. And that's a completely different way of looking at the world than we usually do.

[Tim Gray]

Well, I think, going back to St. Joseph now, he had a great devotion to the holy name of Jesus, didn't he?

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

He did.

[Tim Gray]

And was it true that that was.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Enough to send him into levitation? Yeah. Okay.

[Tim Gray]

And that makes, you know, choir and chapel very hard to do.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah, that's right.

[Tim Gray]

Because you're going to hear the name of Jesus a lot as the congregation's gathering for their, you know, letters of the hours and their prayer time. You're going to hear the name of Jesus and the. The poor guy's going to be floating.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So obviously, as is always the case with the saints, he had a very deep love of Our lady and, of course, firstly our Lord, and the mention of either could send him into ecstasy and into levitation. Also, the other saints, Christmas carols, there were all kinds of things that caused him to rise in ecstasy. So once again, a very humble soul, very beautiful, deeply devout, but once again, in a certain sense, not fitted for this world. Because even in religious life, that's going to inspire wonder and awe in some people and suspicion and jealousy in others.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah. And distraction. I mean, if you're trying to pray and someone keeps floating up, you know, it's kind of hard to focus on the person. The irony is that, you know, God's kind of, as you mentioned, taking the physical, the bodily faculties and possessing them, but that's not happening to everybody else around them, and they're getting very distracted. In their prayer meditations, they watch that. But what do you think the lesson is? Why does the Lord do that? Extraordinarily, extraordinarily rare and unique thing. What is he trying to teach us? I mean, obviously he does it for people like Joseph and Teresa of Avila out of love for them. But what is it for all of us who aren't taken up?

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

I think actually it's one of those. It's probably more one of Those graces that St. Thomas talks about, the graces freely given, which are actually for others. And this is the significance of Saint Teresa of Avila talking about her embarrassment at this experience is that it actually was a source of displeasure for her, precisely because everyone could see her in that state. And the humility of the saints bristles at that sort of thing. They don't want to be seen to be holy. And so it really is a demonstration, a kind of visual aid, if you will, that God makes of the saints. That goes back to what you were saying about St. Paul as spectacle, right? It's not, oh, marvelous, here I go again, right? In the life of the saints, that's got to feel very uncomfortable. And many of the saints puzzle over these gifts, right? But they recognize that they are being made a spectacle of in order to demonstrate the divine power, also the divine love, because that, you know, the very act of elevation. Interestingly enough, levity up until the 19th century was considered to be the opposite of gravity, an opposite power. So people thought of it as a pull, and that's really what's happening. God is drawing them towards himself and he's manifesting it before the eyes of the crowd. And in so doing, sort of demonstrates that that's what he desires for everyone. Is that kind of levity, right? To be drawn up, to be lifted up? As Jesus says, when I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself. And in a certain sense, this is a demonstration of that Gospel principle.

[Tim Gray]

In the last minute. What's the lesson that you take away from St. Joseph?

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Well, St. Joseph of Cupertino is invoked by the seminarians I teach at the seminary at every exam, because he received infused knowledge at just the right time. So he, in his pre ordination examination, he was asked the one question he knew the answer to which he had been given apparently by infused knowledge. So very simple. And in the life of an intellectual, somebody who's teaching theology, St. Joseph Cupertino, even though he's a levitator, keeps us grounded, right? Keeps. He reminds us that that minority is the real root of sanctity. That not taking yourself too seriously is the way in which we fly to God, not by considering ourselves grave and important and holy.

[Tim Gray]

That is such a beautiful point for all of us to reflect on. I love the image of levity and the Lord wanting to take us up and Mary's magnificat, God raises up the lowly and the idea that, you know, I like the angels fly because they don't take themselves seriously. And, you know, the world could use more levity.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Yes, it certainly could.

[Tim Gray]

The world, we all could use more levity. And what a beautiful story that St. Joseph Cupertino gives us. What a great saint to pray to. You know, he kind of gets neglected. He was humble and, you know, I think underestimated during his lifetime by many people. And even today, even in the life of the church, God has raised him up high. So what a great friend for all of us to pray to and ask him to intercede to help us not take ourselves so seriously. To be light of heart and joyful of heart.

[Dr. Sean Innerst]

Right?

[Tim Gray]

That's what God wants for all of us. Well, thanks Sean, so much for being with us. And thanks to everybody who supports us in the mission circle. Those little gifts, all those little things make a big difference. And so everybody who's in our mission circle, you allow us to have this ministry. We're grateful for you, we pray for you every day and we hope that the Lord may bless and keep you. Thanks for joining us. Take care.

[Narrator]

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