Catholic Saints Podcast – “St. Leo the Great”

Augustine Institute
Host: Dr. Ben Akers
Guest: Professor Carl Venestrom
Release Date: November 10, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of Catholic Saints, Dr. Ben Akers is joined by Professor Carl Venestrom to delve into the life and legacy of Pope St. Leo the Great. The conversation presents Leo as both a theological luminary and a courageous leader during a tumultuous era in Church history. The hosts explore Leo’s significant theological contributions, notably at the Council of Chalcedon, his role in cementing papal primacy, and his exemplary balance of courage, moderation, and administrative skill. Through historical anecdote and reflection, the episode inspires listeners to see sanctity not just in extraordinary acts, but in ordinary, often unseen service.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why “the Great”?

[00:19–01:50]

• The episode opens by noting that “Great” is a rare title, not assumed by the saint nor officially given by the Church, but a historical acclamation.
• Notable popes and saints called “the Great” include Leo, Gregory, Nicholas, Gertrude, and, possibly, John Paul II.
  • Quote: “He didn’t become Pope and say, hey, call me Pope Leo the Great.” – Dr. Ben Akers [00:56]
  • “For most of these people, their circumstances are very big. Pope Leo is...” – Prof. Venestrom [01:50]

2. Historical Context and Leo’s Papacy

[01:58–02:23]

• Leo’s tenure as Pope: Deacon (430), priest, pope (440–461).
• The long reign (21 years) was significant during a period filled with doctrinal controversies and political upheaval.
• “It is an extremely long reign, especially for this period.” – Prof. Venestrom [02:17]

3. The Christological Controversies & Ecumenical Councils

[02:23–06:29]

• The episode provides context on early ecumenical councils: Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and, crucially, Chalcedon under Leo’s papacy.
• Leo’s Role: Bridging divisions in Christological debates between “two natures” (Nestorians/Diaphysites) and “one nature” (Monophysites).
  • “He was famous for having a kind of moderation and courage. He was able to take on heretics on the one hand, but he didn’t push people over the edge on the other.” – Prof. Venestrom [02:23]

The Meaning of Councils

• Councils called to settle doctrinal disputes, especially about Christ’s nature—these were vital, not mere “church meetings.”
  • “These were doctrinal councils where these are holy men... wrestling with the fact of the text of the New Testament.” – Dr. Ben Akers [04:09]

4. The Tome of Leo & Council of Chalcedon

[07:17–09:36]

• Leo famously wrote the “Tome of Leo” (Letter 28) to Patriarch Flavian of Constantinople, proposing a theology of Christ “in two natures”—a synthesis later accepted at Chalcedon (451).
• The council records the declaration: “Peter has spoken through Leo,” reflecting both doctrinal clarity and papal authority.
  • “His letter… describes Christ in two natures, which is this kind of compromise, is included. And it actually says that Peter spoke through Leo.” – Prof. Venestrom [08:54]
  • “This is the faith of our Fathers. This is the faith… Peter has spoken through Leo.” – Dr. Ben Akers [09:15]

5. Unity and the Papacy

[09:42–10:40]

• Leo exemplified the unifying role of the papacy, as Christ intended for Peter and his successors.
  • “The real role of the Pope is to strengthen the brothers and to bring unity to the faith.” – Dr. Ben Akers [09:42]
• The hierarchical structure, often perceived as rigid, actually serves the mutual love and unity of the Church.

6. Leo’s Theological Contribution – In the Catechism

[10:40–11:40]

• Leo’s articulation on Christ’s two natures remains foundational, and is quoted verbatim in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 467).
  • “We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord and only begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, or without separation…” – Dr. Ben Akers [11:40]

7. Negative Theology and Respecting Mystery

[11:41–12:17]

• Both hosts reflect on the “negative adjectives” as a way of upholding the transcendence and mystery of God, reminding listeners of human limitations before divine realities.
  • “We have to be careful about what we say about God positively. And part of the way we get to an understanding of who God is is to say what he’s not.” – Prof. Venestrom [11:42]

8. The Story of Leo and Attila the Hun

[12:17–14:54]

• Leo famously met Attila the Hun at the gates of Rome and persuaded him to turn back, a feat signifying both faith and diplomatic courage.
• They discuss the legend—from art and tradition—of Peter and Paul appearing in a vision, aiding Leo’s plea.
  • “He goes as part of this embassy and actually convinces Attila the Hun, who’s on the sort of doorsteps of Rome, to turn back, which requires, I think, incredible bravery.” – Prof. Venestrom [13:32]
  • “Those two figures in the sky that scared me.” – Dr. Ben Akers (quoting Attila’s legendary explanation) [14:23]

9. Leo as ‘Holy Bureaucrat’ and Model of Service

[14:54–17:42]

• Leo’s sanctity found expression in “tedious” administrative tasks: writing letters, mediating disputes, supporting the faithful amid chaos.
  • “I think about him as the perfect holy bureaucrat... it opens up the possibility for everyone everywhere in the organization to be able to do the thing they’re meant to do.” – Prof. Venestrom [15:00]
• His humility and self-denial are highlighted, as well as the anonymity of his personal life—a contrast with saints like Augustine.
  • “He probably would have preferred to live a life of prayer and contemplation... but realistically, he spent a lot of his time on this tedious stuff. So that’s a kind of cruciform life that people probably don’t think of, but it’s extremely important, I think.” – Prof. Venestrom [15:55]

10. Pastoral Heart and Legacy in Teaching

[17:42–19:08]

• Leo’s homilies are still read for their richness, especially on Christmas and Easter; he is quoted in the Catechism’s section on Christian morality.
  • “He actually was a pastor who took Jesus seriously, believed Jesus was God and man, but wanted the people to know and live those mysteries in their own life.” – Dr. Ben Akers [17:54]
  • “Christian, remember your dignity.” – St. Leo the Great (via Dr. Ben Akers) [18:08]

11. Virtues for Today: Moderation and Courage

[19:08–19:49]

• Leo’s life models moderation and courage, virtues especially applicable for modern Catholics.
  • “He’s a great example for us today of the virtues of moderation and courage together. I think we can think of those as opposed in some way... he was obviously very courageous, but... he had this moderation that allowed him to understand how his words might be received and to give them in a way that could be effective in the lives of other people.” – Prof. Venestrom [19:08]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Papal Titles:
  “He didn’t become Pope and say, hey, call me Pope Leo the Great.” – Dr. Ben Akers [00:56]

• On Doctrinal Councils:
  “These were doctrinal councils where these are holy men... wrestling with the fact of the text of the New Testament.” – Dr. Ben Akers [04:09]

• At the Council of Chalcedon:
  “Peter has spoken through Leo.” – Council acclamation, via Dr. Ben Akers [09:15]

• On the Role of the Pope:
  “The real role of the Pope is to strengthen the brothers and to bring unity to the faith.” – Dr. Ben Akers [09:42]

• Leo’s Formula on Christ’s Natures (CCC 467):
  “We confess that one and the same Christ... is to be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, or without separation.” – Dr. Ben Akers [11:40]

• On Administration as a Gift:
  “I kind of think about him as the perfect holy bureaucrat... if you have an administration that works well, it’s so beautiful because it opens up the possibility for everyone everywhere in the organization to be able to do the thing they’re meant to do.” – Prof. Venestrom [15:00]

• Christian Dignity:
  “Christian, remember your dignity.” – St. Leo (via Dr. Ben Akers) [18:08]

Key Segment Timestamps

• 00:19 – Introducing Leo the Great and the meaning of “the Great”
• 02:01 – Historical context: Leo’s papacy and fifth-century Church controversies
• 03:17 – Explanation of Church councils and their importance
• 04:47 – Christological controversies and Leo’s middle-way theology
• 07:17 – Leo’s “Tome” and the Council of Chalcedon
• 09:15 – “Peter has spoken through Leo” and papal primacy
• 10:40 – Leo’s teaching in the Catechism (CCC 467)
• 12:17 – Meeting with Attila the Hun and legendary intervention
• 14:54 – Leo’s role as administrator and humble servant
• 17:42 – Leo’s pastoral homilies and legacy
• 19:08 – Takeaway: Moderation and Courage
• 19:56 – Closing thoughts and call to seek the intercession of St. Leo

Takeaways

• Pope St. Leo the Great was a towering figure not only in doctrine but in humble, tireless service—teaching, unifying, protecting, and governing the Church amid chaos.
• His legacy endures in the Church’s creeds, catechism, and in the ideal of sanctity in ordinary labor and courageous, self-effacing leadership.
• The episode encourages listeners to embrace moderation, courage, and humble administration in their own vocations, inspired by Leo’s example.

St. Leo the Great, pray for us.