St. Maximus the Confessor

Summary

Podcast Summary: Catholic Saints – Episode on St. Maximus the Confessor

Release Date: August 13, 2025
Host: Mary McKeon & Dr. Carl Vennerstrom
Produced by: Augustine Institute

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Introduction

In this episode of Catholic Saints, hosted by Mary McKeon and featuring Dr. Carl Vennerstrom from the Augustine Institute, listeners are introduced to St. Maximus the Confessor, a pivotal figure in early Christian theology and a steadfast defender of orthodox Christology. The hosts aim to delve deep into his life, theological contributions, and enduring legacy, providing both historical context and personal insights to inspire listeners in their own faith journeys.

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Understanding St. Maximus: Historical Context and Early Life

Birth and Education
St. Maximus the Confessor was born in 580 AD in Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul), the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. Dr. Vennerstrom explains, “[Maximus] was extremely well educated in philosophy and in rhetoric” (05:04). His prestigious position as the first secretary to Emperor Heraclius placed him at the heart of the empire's political and theological discourse.

Personal Struggles and Rise in the Empire
Maximus's role involved advising the emperor and writing speeches, making him a key influencer in the empire's governance. However, his deep commitment to orthodox theology soon put him at odds with imperial policies, particularly concerning Monothelitism—a heresy that posited Christ had only one will.

Transition to Monastic Life
Faced with the emperor’s drift towards heretical beliefs, Maximus chose to abandon his influential position and embrace monastic life. “[He] goes across the Bosphorus to the east and joins a monastery and becomes a very humble monk,” Mary McKeon summarizes (07:35). This marked the beginning of his lifelong struggle to uphold and defend theological truth.

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Theological Contributions and Councils

Monothelitism Explained
Monothelitism attempted to reconcile the dual nature of Christ by asserting that He possessed a single divine will, negating the necessity of a distinct human will. Dr. Vennerstrom delves into the complexities of this heresy:
“Maximus sees that Christ truly had to have a human will which was distinct from the divine will, in order that our human wills could be saved” (12:54).

Council of Ephesus and Chalcedon
To understand Maximus's context, the hosts review significant ecumenical councils:

• Council of Ephesus (5th Century): Addressed Christological debates, particularly opposing Nestorius’ rejection of Mary as Theotokos ("Bearer of God").
• Council of Chalcedon (451 AD): Affirmed that Christ exists in one person, two natures—fully divine and fully human.

These councils set the stage for Maximus's theological battles, emphasizing the necessity of maintaining both natures and wills within Christ without conflation.

Stance Against Monothelitism
Maximus ardently opposed Monothelitism, advocating for the recognition of both a distinct divine and human will in Christ. This stance was crucial for maintaining the efficacy of Christ's salvation and ensuring that His human nature was fully preserved.

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Persecution and Confession

Conflict with Emperor Constans II
Under Emperor Constans II, a staunch Monothelitist, Maximus faced severe persecution for his theological positions. Dr. Vennerstrom recounts,
“The emperor ... orders the arrest of Pope Martin and Maximus” (15:14).

Torture and Imprisonment
Maximus and Pope Martin endured brutal treatment, including the mutilation of their tongues and right hands, symbolizing the suppression of their theological voices:
“They cut off Maximus and Pope Martin's tongues and their right hands so they can no longer speak and they can no longer write” (16:23).

Exile and Death
Ultimately, Maximus was exiled to a harsh prison in modern-day Georgia, where he died in 662 AD. Although not formally martyred, his sufferings earned him the title of Confessor, recognizing his steadfast witness to the faith despite intense persecution.

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Legacy and Lasting Impact

Theological Writings
St. Maximus left behind an extensive body of writings that continue to influence Christian theology. His works address profound theological issues, virtues, and the life of prayer. Dr. Vennerstrom emphasizes,
“He's an extremely profound thinker and very worthy of our attention and study” (18:17). Although challenging, his writings offer deep insights for those willing to engage with them.

Witness to Humility and Truth
Maximus's life is a testament to humility and unwavering commitment to theological truth.
“He was a great witness to humility, that ... there's no reason to disrupt the boat” (19:02), Dr. Vennerstrom notes, highlighting how Maximus prioritized doctrinal integrity over personal advancement.

Inspiration for Modern Faith
Maximus’s dedication serves as an inspiration for contemporary believers to engage deeply with their faith, understand its complexities, and stand firm against doctrinal errors.
“If they can spill blood, we can read” (20:36), Dr. Vennerstrom encourages, urging listeners to invest effort into studying Maximus’s teachings.

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Conclusion

The episode closes with reflections on the significance of St. Maximus the Confessor’s contributions to the Church and the enduring relevance of his struggles against heresy. Mary McKeon and Dr. Carl Vennerstrom underscore the importance of remembering and studying such saints to deepen one's own faith and understanding of Catholic doctrine.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Carl Vennerstrom (12:54):

  “Maximus sees that Christ truly had to have a human will which was distinct from the divine will, in order that our human wills could be saved.”

• Mary McKeon (20:36):

  “We can spill some sweat. Spare some time to dive through the writing.”

• Dr. Carl Vennerstrom (20:41):

  “Maximus spilled blood because he believed this. And so did Pope Martin.”

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Final Thoughts

This comprehensive exploration of St. Maximus the Confessor's life and theology not only educates listeners about his pivotal role in defending orthodox Christology but also inspires a deeper appreciation for the complexities and sacrifices involved in maintaining theological truth. By understanding the historical and doctrinal challenges faced by saints like Maximus, believers are encouraged to pursue holiness with both knowledge and perseverance.

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Thank you for joining this episode of Catholic Saints. To delve deeper into the lives of other saints and enrich your faith, consider exploring more episodes and resources offered by the Augustine Institute.

Transcript

[Mary McKeon]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustine Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live, and share their faith. Welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Mary McKeon, and I am joined with Dr. Carl Vennerstrom, professor here at the the Augustine Institute. Thanks for joining us.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Very glad to be here. Thank you.

[Mary McKeon]

Mary, my professor, question for you. This episode includes. You are teaching Greek. What are you personally trying to learn about within either Greek or theology that you are going down rabbit holes on?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, one of my rabbit holes, my most recent rabbit hole, I was trying to translate some acts of the Apostles, and there's the part where Paul and Silas are put into prison and they're, like, chained to some wood. It says in Greek.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And it's usually translated as stocks. So I spent like an hour yesterday trying to figure out how people were imprisoned in the ancient world to understand.

[Mary McKeon]

What that stock word.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, well, yeah, it just means sulan. It's just wood.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay. But, like, interesting.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And some other ancient authors, in, like, a different sense, it can mean stock. So I was. I was just suspicious that was the right way to translate. I thought maybe they were translated to a chain to a post, but I'm probably wrong and it was probably a waste of time.

[Mary McKeon]

Well, before we lose our listeners.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

We go down very different rabbit holes.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. I'm just kidding.

[Mary McKeon]

That's fascinating. Okay, so a lot of Greek etymology in Scripture right now.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, yeah. Spending a lot of time trying to understand the Acts of the Apostles and Luke. Yeah. I mean, other more interesting things. Like in Acts 13, it says that in a sermon of Paul, in his first synagogue sermon, it says that Jesus came. It was like after John preached before the acidos of Jesus, like, which means entrance. And it's kind of the opposite of Exodus, which is mentioned at the transfiguration. Jesus is talking about his Exodus. So.

[Mary McKeon]

Interesting.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

Cool.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

What do these things mean?

[Mary McKeon]

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure there's a lot there.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

Well, thank you for sharing. If you, yes. Are interested, come take a class with Dr. Carl Bennerstrom here at the Augustine Institute.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

I don't know. I don't think that's a good time to make a pitch.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Well, maybe after another professor does, we'll.

[Mary McKeon]

Pivot back to the life of the saints. So this episode, we're going to dive into the life of Saint Maximus the Confessor. And the series is to dive into their lives, learn about them, and ultimately be inspired in our own life and path to holiness.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And.

[Mary McKeon]

And it's been. It's been a joy to be diving into these saints because it's very encouraging that in every age, every time, every personality, we have the opportunity and invitation to become saints and to grow and go all in for the Lord. So this episode, Saint Maximus, he has two feast days, but it depends on east versus west. So his feast day in the west is August 13th, and then in the east, typically celebrated the feast day on January 21st. My first question is, can you explain a little bit why there are two feast days or why the east and west celebrate and honor him on different days?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, so it's always kind of tricky with opposing feast days. There's like, a lot of different factors that can come into play. Historically, August 13th is supposed to be either his death date or the date of the transference of his relics. I think from the place where he died in modern day Georgia to their final resting place. Anyways, in the east, August 13 is also part of the celebration of the Transfiguration. So some people think it got moved to January 21st for that reason. But yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Both. Both great feast days.

[Mary McKeon]

Both great. Why. Why have one when you can have two?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, you can celebrate it twice if you want.

[Mary McKeon]

Yes, wonderful. Okay. Saint Maximus the Confessor, where was he born? I don't know anything about this scene.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's a good place to start. So he's born in Constantinople, which is modern day Istanbul. So it's right on the Bosphorus, which is right before you get to the Black Sea from the Mediterranean.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And this was the capital of what time period? The Roman Empire. Yeah. He was born 580 and died 662. Okay, so it's a little confusing that Constantinople is the capital of the Roman Empire because it seems like Rome should be the capital of the Roman Empire, but Constantine moved it to Constantinople, a city which he named after himself, which is a cool move. Not many people get to do that, but he did in any case. Yeah, there was a lot more happening in the east by the time that Constantine came to power. So Constantinople, center of the empire. This is where the emperor is. He was extremely well educated in philosophy and in rhetoric. So he's in kind of the upper crust of society. When he grew up, he came the secretary to the emperor. So this was an extremely important position. He was the first secretary. So not just scheduling meetings and sending form emails, but was he also like.

[Mary McKeon]

An emcee or a spokesperson for the Emperor.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, I think some of that was involved too. But I think one of the main jobs was like as advisor. But yeah, he probably also would like write. Write speeches and do all this kind of thing. So he was. Yeah, he was very intimate with the inner workings of the empire. And the emperor was Heraclius, who had done some good conquering in Persia. Everybody loved him. Things were going well, but Maximus discerned that the emperor and. And his sort of groupies were falling into heresy. And the heresy is monothelitism. Okay. This is kind of difficult because, I don't know, I think most people, it's like Council of Nicaea, First Council of Continental. Maybe it's like the Trinity.

[Mary McKeon]

Yeah, I haven't heard of this one.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, and then there's like the. So those would be the Trinitarian ecumenical councils. And then there were Christological councils. So Ephesus and Chalcedon. Can I explain those a little bit, please? Background. Okay. I hope we don't lose anyone.

[Mary McKeon]

Please, let's nerd out.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

I won't talk about stocks or ancient imprisonment, although I will later. So the Council of Ephesus is in the 5th century and it is a Christological council. So it deals with how we talk about Christ. How is Christ, God and man? And this was sort of kicked off by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Nestorius, who didn't like the term Theotokos. He. For Mary, theotokos means the bearer of God. Like Tokos just means like birth giver. So the person who gives birth to God, because he says this makes it seem like God isn't infinite and unchangeable.

[Mary McKeon]

Right.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

So all of that led to a bunch of different opposing theories and debates. And the council itself is very interesting. I'm going to pass over all the details. But basically what was excluded was. Was we can't say that there are two persons in Christ. We can't say there's like a divine person, like the Word or God, and then a human person that we call Jesus. And these two persons sort of like work together in a mysterious way to accomplish all the stuff that Jesus did.

[Mary McKeon]

They were separate persons.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. So that when Jesus suffered, we say Jesus suffered, but when Christ performed miracles, we say the Word performed miracles. So that was excluded. It's one person, one personal subject. You could see this in the creed too.

[Mary McKeon]

Wait, when you say excluded, what do you mean? Like that was negated?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. Declared heretical anathema. Okay, can't say that anymore. Okay, so then that. Just as ecumenical councils usually do, they just make people have More debates. And so they kept squabbling. And about 20 years later, they have the Council of Chalcedon, which is close to Constantinople. And in this council, the idea that is excluded is there is only one nature. So that's kind of confusing. We just excluded that there are two persons, two personal subjects. But now we're excluding the idea that there's one nature. And the. The whole thing with all the ecumenical councils in this period is we need to have an explanation for the Incarnation that makes salvation possible. So if Christ only has one nature, it can't really be the human nature, because then he wouldn't be God anymore. Then the divine nature would be good. It can't just be the divine nature, because then we can't have salvation because he didn't truly condescend to become human. The Word became flesh, we hear in John. And so this. That's a key, key verse. And it also can't be like a mixed nature. That's like a different kind of nature than it has ever been natured before. Not like a divine nature, exactly, but also not a human nature. This like, synthesis that sort of mixed together, that's a new thing, because that's also not our human nature. So we still can't receive salvation. Okay, so they said it's one person or hypostasis in two natures. So one person, two natures. Okay, okay. So the natures are preserved. They don't go away, but they are united. There's a union of natures in one person. Okay, so finally get to monothelitism. And the problem here doesn't really sound exactly like a problem.

[Mary McKeon]

Wait, sorry. Both of these councils, they've happened.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

They've happened.

[Mary McKeon]

Setting the stage for St. Maximus context.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. At least Christians within the empire agree on this. There are other Christians who sort of split off.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

After those councils. Yes, Christians who still exist today. Okay. But anyways, that's agreed upon, at least in Maximus's world. The problem then is that with monothelitism, that means one will. And that kind of sounds attractive, right? Like, how can you have two wills? Yeah, but we do have an episode of two wills. Right. The Garden of Gethsemane. He asks for the cup to pass, and he says, not my will be done, but your will. Okay, but what. What wills is he talking about? If he's saying your will and referring to the divine will, that also has to be his will. Right, but if he's distinguishing another will, he must be distinguishing a will that's not divine in the same sense as The Father's will or God's will? And so what Maximus says is that in the first place, natures have to have a will. But. But the more important thing is that Christ truly had to have a human will which was distinct from the divine will, in order that our human wills could be saved. And so he has a perfect human will that's perfectly obedient to the divine will. And he shows us how to align our wills to God's in difficulty. So Maximus sees this as like.

[Mary McKeon]

Can I ask a quick question?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, please.

[Mary McKeon]

Does a nature. I'm afraid to slip into heresy right now.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

Does each nature have a will? So is that. Yeah, there's a By intrinsic of having a nature. Can I guess. Okay, so does a will is associated with each nature? Can a nature have more than one will? No, that's what we're. That was what was clarified here.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. And that there's not like a. There's not one will that's like partly divine, partly human.

[Mary McKeon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

One truly human will.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

One truly divine will. Not divided, not separable from each other in perfect harmony.

[Mary McKeon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

But still divine, distinct.

[Mary McKeon]

Yes. Jesus. One person, two natures, with a human will perfectly submitted to the divine will.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Exactly.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. Okay. Sorry, that was. It's. It's. It's impossible to describe monothelitism or diatholitism without.

[Mary McKeon]

And the heresy.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Christological background.

[Mary McKeon]

Thank you. The heresy was, though, he just had one will. Correct? Yes, yes. Okay.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

Just to reiterate.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Right. Okay. So he realizes kind of all this, and so he says, I can't be part of this crew anymore. And so he goes across the Bosphorus to the east and joins a monastery and becomes a very humble monk. And. But he's still teaching this kind of stuff. And the Emperor doesn't like it, obviously, and he ends up leaving the monastery and going to North Africa. So. And in the west, people were against monothelitism. So he spent some time in Alexandria and has this debate and he convinces this guy Pyrrhus, and then he ends up in Carthage. And ultimately what happens is that he joins this council, which is not an ecumenical council, but still an important council that happens in Rome in the year 649. So Maximus from the east spends a lot of his life in North Africa and joins up allies with Pope Martin, also Saint Pope Martin the Confessor. And we'll hear about why they're confessors soon. Okay, so the council meets, and it seems like even though his name isn't mentioned, it seems like Maximus is behind a lot of the proceedings of the council that are published. And there were 150 Westerners and then 37 Easterners, including Maximus. And it condemns monothelitism. And there's a new emperor now, Constans ii, and he's also a monothelitist. It's hard to get that one out. And he's very upset. And so he orders the arrest of Pope Martin and Maximus. So they're brought to Constantinople. There are multiple trials. Eventually they make them confessors, and this was not a nice thing that they did, although it was for God's glory. So they cut off Maximus and Pope Martin's. They cut off each of their tongues and their right hands so they can no longer speak and they can no longer write.

[Mary McKeon]

Unless they're left handed.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Unless they're left handed, which I don't think they happen to be either way.

[Mary McKeon]

Wow, I did not know that.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. And so this is not the only episode of this kind where the torture. The emperor in the east and the Eastern Roman Empire persecuted the west and popes and these kinds of things. And so this is bad. Maximus himself ends up in exile, in prison in, in modern day Georgia, which is, it's like on the other side of the Black Sea, near Armenia, close to Russia now it borders Russia. And he, he dies there in horrible conditions. So he's not explicitly martyred, but he is given the title confessor, as is Pope Martin, a title given to Christians who suffer intense persecution but were not killed for the proclamation of their faith.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay, so they weren't martyrs, they were just severely tortured for shaking against speaking against heresy.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Okay, yeah, right, yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

So the confessor, though, it is really linked to their mouth, like their writing, their proclamation of the faith.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, that's right, yeah. And it's not confessor in the sense of like the confession of sins. Okay, yeah. So there are multiple senses of confessions which you can read about in the confessions, which is a confession of sin, but also a confession of praise and also a confession of the truth. So it has all these different meanings.

[Mary McKeon]

Thank you, that's very helpful.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah.

[Mary McKeon]

Did you say so after he was tortured, he was, he was then sent to Georgia and that is where he died.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

That's where he died.

[Mary McKeon]

Okay, Maximus the Confessor. What would you, in summary, say his greatest legacies to the church include?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, so one thing I haven't mentioned is he has an extensive, extensive set of writings and a lot of these deal with very profound and difficult theological problems. But then others also deal with the virtues and The Life of Prayer. Um, so that's. And he's an extremely profound thinker and very worthy of our attention and study. He's difficult to understand. Like, you need kind of a lot of background to understand Maximus, but sort of. I don't. In college, I picked up some Maximus, and I was like, I have no idea what he's talking about. And my friend was like, oh, you need to read these four people first. And then eventually, years later, I came back to him and I was like.

[Mary McKeon]

This is such dense philosopher. But the writing is still available for us to read.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

That's right. And with some sweat and tears, you can get there, and it's well worth the effort. But then on a more general level, I think he's a great witness to humility, that. I mean, he had an awesome job, like, one of the most awesome jobs in the world at the time. And sometimes these theological questions can seem like they. They're not that important or like there's no reason to disrupt the boat.

[Mary McKeon]

Yeah.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Over them. And I don't know. I think we should care enough about our faith and care enough to understand our faith that we could be bound. Bothered by heresy. Yeah, yeah. And. And make that change our lives.

[Mary McKeon]

Yes. I remember one time one of the professors was saying, as we were learning the creed, like, we take for granted a lot of these lines, but we realize there are battles, there are wars, there are, you know, debates and councils advocating for all these very specific lines that we profess as our faith. Today. We can kind of just recite them and take it for granted. But, like, like you said, the words matter, and I am grateful. These philosophers, smarter than I, have navigated and battled through these nuances so I can receive the depth of Jesus with even more clarity.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah. And Maximus spilled blood because he believed this.

[Mary McKeon]

Right.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

And so did Pope Martin.

[Mary McKeon]

Yes, yes.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

If they can spill blood, we can read. Yeah. We can spill some sweat.

[Mary McKeon]

Spare some time to dive through the writing. No, that's incredible. Thank you. Is there anything else, as we are wrapping up this episode, that you'd like to share about this particular saint?

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, I don't. Not too much in particular. I think he's especially beloved in the East. But I think. Yeah. It's also worth our while in the west to think carefully about him so we can share in those same fruits.

[Mary McKeon]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. And thank you for our small Greek detours. You took us on as well.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

We did end up in prison again.

[Mary McKeon]

We did end up in prison again. This is true. Full circle.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

I'm not sure if it was stocks or not, but yeah, who knows?

[Mary McKeon]

Yes, yes. And just the helpful review, too, of the different councils that set the stage for Saint Maximus, his particular mission and fighting of heresy in this time period. So thank you all. Thanks for joining.

[Dr. Carl Vennerstrom]

Yeah, my pleasure.

[Mary McKeon]

Thanks for listening for this episode of Catholic Saints.