B (2:28)

Yes, I remember you mentioning there are other saints similar to this.

C (2:32)

Yeah. So, yeah, so we've done an episode on Saint Marcela, who was actually a friend of Saint Paula and her Story is very similar. Saint Macrina has a kind of similar story. She was only engaged, but her fiance died before her, and then she entered the monastic life. So. Yeah. So married women entering the monastic life either after their husband had died or even with permission of their husband or because their husband also wanted to do the same thing is not that uncommon in the early church.

B (2:59)

And one quick question. That still could happen today, Right? Or we don't. I'm not sure.

C (3:03)

I think so.

B (3:03)

This is much rarer than experiencing.

C (3:06)

I mean, obviously people being widowed is a little bit less common now. Very common in the ancient world. But yeah, I think. I mean, this is a common all through the Middle Ages even too, that widows would enter the monastic life.

B (3:18)

Okay.

C (3:19)

So I think it would still be possible. But a lot of orders now don't take older women. So I'm not sure exactly how it would work.

B (3:25)

But what was the name of the monastic order she entered?

C (3:29)

Well, she founded an order, so.

B (3:31)

Okay.

C (3:31)

Okay, so we'll back up a step. So Paula lived in Rome as wealthy Roman women do, and she there in Rome became acquainted with St. Jerome. So Marcella, Paula and a couple other women are close companions of St. Jerome, and she took St. Jerome as kind of a spiritual director and mentor. Jerome leaves Rome or kind of actually gets run out of Rome, but anyway leaves Rome and moves Bethlehem, where he spends the rest of his life translating the Vulgate and living the monastic life. And so Paula actually follows Jerome to the holy Land, and she founds a sister order to Jerome's order of monks in Bethlehem. Okay. And so she's actually considered to be sort of one of the first nuns, maybe the first nun in the west, because although there's certainly monastic life beforehand, you know, Saint Marcela kind of has a monastery in her house. This idea of kind of being like, cloistered and living like this regular office of prayer and these things. This is really one of the first examples is Paula's convent in Bethlehem.

B (4:36)

Got it. Okay. And separated from society, living a rule of life.

C (4:40)

Yeah.

B (4:41)

Etc. Did Jerome's order have a specific name or was it just this simple monastic life like hermitage?

C (4:47)

I think they are. I think they're named after Jerome now. I think they're like our monks of St. Jerome. But I don't think they orders didn't really have a particular name other than kind of after their founder. I don't think they're called like, the Paula Ites or anything like that. I don't think they have. They have a specific name, but Paula Was obviously a really formidable woman just in terms of her status and her wealth. So Jerome talks about, emphasizes her kind of lineage, her extremely well known Roman lineage. So he says she's descended from Scipio Africanus, who's like the famous general who defeated the Carthaginians in the Punic wars and the Gracchi brothers, who are also famous Roman politicians. And she says her husband, Toxocius I think is how it's pronounced, was descended from Julius Caesar and supposedly Aeneas himself who founded Rome. So I don't know if these quite the background. Yeah, I don't know if these lineages are true. But like, the point is she's from like, comes from status. She comes from status. What would be the equivalent now? Like she's like a Kennedy.

B (5:49)

Yes.

C (5:50)

Do you know what I mean? Like she's from a really, really well known family. And I think the reason he emphasizes this is because someone like that entering the monastic life is like a really big deal. Right. Especially someone who leaves Rome to do it. Right. Because this is where you're famous. Right. This is where you're known. And so I was thinking kind of a modern equivalent would be like Catherine Drexel. I don't know if you know her story at all, but she's like a billionaire heiress who enters into the monastic life and this makes like front page news at the time she does it, Right? That's right. So this is really similar that Paula kind of makes front page news by leaving Rome and renouncing all of her wealth. And she has children and so they are provided for, but she even leaves her children, except her one daughter she takes with her into the monastery, but she leaves all of that behind. And so may I ask her leaf.

B (6:46)

Ask and where do we learn about her life? What's the source that we can look to?

C (6:52)

Yeah, so all we know about her life basically comes from the life that Jerome wrote about her after she died. So he wrote it in a letter to her daughter in praise of her. We also have a couple letters that Jerome exchanged with Paula and her daughter in Jerome's collection of letters, including one that he wrote on their behalf.

B (7:09)

So, okay, so she must have died young if he was able to.

C (7:14)

Jerome died old. Yeah, I mean she was like in her early.

B (7:16)

Different times.

C (7:18)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, the ancient world, you can die anytime, you know. But yeah, yeah, she didn't, she didn't live. I think she's in her. In her 40s when she died.

B (7:24)

Okay, Fascinating.

C (7:25)

So, yeah, that's how we know about her Life. And so Jerome clearly thought very highly of her. I mean, she also bankrolled all of Jerome's projects, including the Vulgate, and she built her monastery with her funds. He talks about how she's, like, determined to die a beggar, which is interesting if you think about her as being like, a billionaire heiress, that she gives away her money in such large amounts that Jerome is, like, concerned about it and is like, you need to stop being so generous. And she's just like, I'm determined to die with nothing.

B (7:55)

That's incredible.

C (7:56)

That is incredible. Yeah, so she does that. Jerome actually dedicates several of his Old Testament commentaries to her because he read through the Old Testament with her and her daughter evidently commenting on the whole thing. And he says that Paula learned Hebrew and could say the Psalms in Hebrew, which is pretty impressive.

B (8:12)

So she was very smart as well.

C (8:14)

Smart woman.

B (8:15)

Yes.

C (8:15)

Smart, beautiful, wealthy, High class.

B (8:18)

High class and generous and virtuous and.

C (8:21)

Hung out with Jerome. So. Yeah. So there's a really funny quote, actually about this, because Jerome is kind of notoriously crotchety. If you haven't read anything about St. Jerome, Jerome is kind of like. He's like a hermit in the cave, like, kind of, you know, stereotypical. A little bit of a weird Bible scholar type. Don't tell my Bible scholar colleagues. And so he. He kind of like, gets run out of Rome because of his, like, obnoxious personality. And so there's another historian writing at the same time about the history of the saints in the church named Palladius. He writes a book called the Lausiac History, which is like a monastic history. And this is what he says about St. Paula. He says, paula, who looks after Jerome, will die first and be set free at last from his meanness. Because of him, no holy person will live in those parts. His bad temper would drive out even his own brother.

B (9:08)

Sounds like a gem.

C (9:11)

Paula apparently got along with Jerome okay.

B (9:14)

Which is miraculous in and of itself.

C (9:16)

Yeah. And Jerome got along with her. And, yeah, she dedicated a lot of time and study. And so Mary was saying with. So she's kind of like the hidden benefactor of the Vulgate, because she's really the one who bankrolled Jerome's research and all of his sort of scripture commentaries on the Old Testament and his Hebrew study. And she herself benefited from all these.

B (9:36)

Things, which I think is a very important fact. Who was the funder of the Vulgate, Something that we thank God, have this access to the Bible and the word of God that originated through her generosity years later in translations.

C (9:54)

Yeah. And her also intellectual support. Both her and Marcella were sort of. Yeah. They were intellectual companions of Jerome. And I think we think of Jerome, like all the pictures of Jerome, like, in a cave with a lion. Like, he was just, like, by himself, kind of this intellectual virtuoso. But, of course, everybody needs support and community and discussion in order to do good scholarship and all of that. And in Jerome's case, he was surrounded by these. A lot of women, actually, in the monastic life who helped him, which is.

B (10:21)

Similar to the Apostles as well. There were wealthy women in Scripture who were the benefactors of nations, of land or assets and resources for the Apostles as well.

C (10:34)

Yeah. I wanted to read the first line of the life that Jerome wrote of Paula. Just you'll get a sense of, like, how much Jerome respects her. And also, I think this is probably like, the most ridiculous first line of Jose's biography I've ever read. It's just, like, really funny. So I'll read it to you. Okay. This is what Jerome says. He says, if all my bodily limbs were turned into tongues, and if every limb could speak with a human voice, I would still be unable to give a proper account of the virtues of the holy pala.

B (11:02)

Wow.

C (11:03)

That's quite an image, huh? If all of your arms and legs are turned into tongues, and they were.

B (11:07)

All talking even then, we cannot do justice.

C (11:09)

We cannot do justice to her virtue. Wow.

B (11:13)

Yes. I would be honored if someone ever described me that way.

C (11:17)

It's also just like a really funny. I don't know. This gives you a little glimpse into Jerome's personality as well. He's a little bit of.

B (11:23)

He had some humor.

C (11:24)

Eccentric dude.

B (11:25)

Yeah. Well, I'd assume if you were that secluded from society, you might be. But I did want to ask, with regards to the Vulgate, I'm still caught up on that. What did exist, though, prior to the translation of the Vulgate, was it, like, in papyrus, the words of scripture were in Hebrew and Greek?

C (11:45)

Yeah. So there are different translations. So there's a previous Latin translation called the Old Latin translation of the Bible that St. Augustine read. So there was an older translation that. Yeah. So that translation is lost. So we don't know exactly what it was like, but there definitely was some rough parts of that. And actually, there's a really famous letter exchange between Augustine and Jerome about the translation of the Vulgate because Augustine has memorized the Old Latin, and so he kind of criticizes some of Jerome's translating, and they kind of have a bit of a fight they make up. But it's kind of an interesting, interesting, interesting exchange. But yeah, certainly they were aware of different translations. I mean, Origen, prior to this in the third century, put together a famous six columned comparison of Greek translations of the Bible. Okay. Called the hexapla. The six columned thing that.

B (12:37)

Yes, yeah.

C (12:37)

So there was lots of, lots of biblical scholarship. So they were aware of different translations and different editions and stuff.

B (12:43)

Yes.

C (12:43)

But there wasn't a Latin translation from Hebrew. And so Jerome learned Hebrew and translated it from.

B (12:50)

Okay, and this is kind of a dumb question, but why Latin? Again, was it just the language of academics that was most accessible?

C (12:56)

Oh, well, it's just like what half the empire speaks. So.

B (12:59)

Okay. I guess because we don't speak Latin today. I forget there was a time period.

C (13:02)

Yeah. So basically you speak Greek or Latin, you know, and that's pretty much it. I mean, of course there's Syriac as well. There's a Syriac translation as well. But yeah, so people.

B (13:10)

Yeah, it was successful to the people.

C (13:12)

So another thing I wanted to mention about Paula that's kind of cool is that there's a whole description of her kind of pilgrimage in the whole Holy Land and at holy sites. So she, before she settles down in Bethlehem, you know, she goes to. Goes on pilgrimage with Jerome and a bunch of other women. And it really describes pretty much in detail, like all the sites that she went to and kind of like her emotional experience and her like conversion at each of these sites. And then when she sees Bethlehem and like decides to kind of settle down there. And so she'd be a really cool saint to walk with if you're going on pilgrimage to the Holy Land or if you've been there. I think it would be pretty neat to like read sort of through the eyes of an ancient saint, like their experience of visiting the Holy Land. And when Paula died, she was interred at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem with Jerome and her body is still there. So if you're going on pilgrimage to the Holy Land and you're in Bethlehem, then you can visit Paula and, you know, maybe take her as a kind of.

B (14:10)

Have you been before?

C (14:12)

I have not been to the Holland. I had to double check with Dr. Seehorn that Paula was still. I knew that she'd been buried there, but whether or not she was, was still there. But he said that she's still there, so.

B (14:20)

And you had mentioned these were spiritual reflections she wrote herself as she was journeying through the Holy Land.

C (14:26)

No, that's just. It's Jerome recounting it. So he was with her. It's not like her own words, but it's her experiences as told by Jerome.

B (14:34)

Okay, that's a great recommendation for spiritual guides as you travel the Holy Land. Thank you. That's wonderful. How would you say St. Paula impacts us today?

C (14:46)

Yeah. So I think one thing is the Holy Land. Thinking about going to the Holy Land. She'd be a cool companion. Another thing I think Paula is really good for is just a kind of companion in, like, life's sort of shifting expectations. I think somewhat dangerously. Sometimes we have a very fixed notion of, like, our vocation as Christians. Like, I just. I've experienced this maybe with some young Catholics that they teach that they think like, oh, my vocation is a religious life or marriage, and until I'm in one of those vocations, I'm not really doing what God called me. Or like, if people have discern out of things, it's like, oh, well, what was my vocation? And I think it's important to remember that of course, there are vocations to which we are called more permanently, like marriage. Like, you can't just decide to leave that vocation. But God is always calling us. You know, our primal vocation is baptismal, and God calls us to do things for a time and then to do other things for a time. And I think this was much more fluid in the ancient world than we think of it as today. And there's like, Paula is just one example, as I said, of people who, you know, she lives a whole life. She raises a whole family until she's 32, and then has a. Does a completely different thing. Yeah, that's a.

B (16:02)

No, it's a really good point. And I think sometimes today, if it's so black and white that we just miss living the holiness of the present day or the present season. That is the reality of our life and is the reality of God's will for our life. If we're so focused on that.

C (16:16)

And we sometimes, like, we end up living a life we never expected we would live, you know, because, Paula, I'm. It's like, it was so uncommon for Roman women to sort of enter the monastic life when they were young, because when you're 12, you don't necessarily have a very mature, like, spiritual sense of, like, your development or what you want to do. And so to be married that young and have a whole expectation of what your life was going to be like, and then to do something totally different, I mean, how many of us find ourselves in places we never expected to be, or doing things we never expected to do and thinking we're not suited for it, or we don't have the background for it. And I think Paula is a good sort of patroness. You can do and be different things if God calls you. And God can give you the grace to live in different states according to what happens in life. Cause life is crazy and things happen.

B (17:04)

Can't control it.

C (17:04)

You can't always control what happens. So I think that that's kind of a cool thing to think about, both with Paula and other sort of female saints of this period.

B (17:11)

Yes.

C (17:12)

They have a kind of flexible vocation.

B (17:15)

Do we know anything about her family or her children?

C (17:17)

I mean, we know a little bit from what Jerome says. So her daughter. I'm probably gonna mispronounce it. Iustichium is her daughter's name. She joins the monastery with her mother and ends up being the abbess after her. And then her granddaughter, Paula the younger, who is her son's daughter. She has one son. She also enters the monastery after.

B (17:35)

Which answers my other question. St. Paula is known as St. Paula the Elder.

C (17:38)

Because the younger. Yes, it's her granddaughter. It's her granddaughter.

B (17:41)

Thank you.

C (17:42)

And a couple of her children died young. And then her son, also named Toxocious, marries and has children. And so he's like the heir of the family. So we know a little bit. A little bit about them, but not.

B (17:56)

Was it rare for Roman women to be receptive to Christianity in this time period?

C (18:02)

I wouldn't say it's rare in the fourth century. I mean, it's still kind of rare for upper class people to some degree, or at least it's not like, necessarily seen as prestigious or cool. I mean, as in all time periods, women seem a little more receptive to these things than men. So of her children, Toxocious, her son, is not baptized until late in life and does not embrace the faith until later, but her daughters do. And she spends a great deal of anxiety and prayer for them, even when she's, you know, living the monastic life. Yes, of course. So that's a kind of another point I wanted to bring out just about, I don't know, the subtleties of, like, married life or something.

B (18:38)

Yeah.

C (18:39)

Is that we often think again about these states as being kind of very strict, like the kinds of things you can do with your money when you're in a married state and the kinds of things you can't. And I think that. That, like, we think, oh, well, I live poverty according to my state. And of course that's true. But Paula is an extraordinary example of giving away all her money even though she has children. And I'm not saying she didn't provide for her children at all, But I think that we can often err too much in the other direction and we can be a little bit too easy on ourselves with the Lord's call to poverty and think like, oh, I need to set some aside for insurance. I need to plan for this, I need to plan for that. And it can prevent us from being generous. And this was obviously difficult for her, like leaving her children was difficult for her. Jerome talks about. About it. But this complete freedom of like, well, she's praying for them, which is more important than any title she gives them or money she gives them. I think she can be really inspiring for us to grow in detachment from wealth, even if we are managing a family. Because, yeah, we're talking about someone who's very high standing, very wealthy, and so has every reason to want to hold it back for safety because that's what she's used to. Her whole family, her whole life, her kids, this is what they're used to. And yet she's able to completely detach herself from that. And I think that's pretty powerful.

B (20:04)

That's a great example. Yes, I affirmed that. I wouldn't have thought of that as well, but absolutely. That radical generosity, even for someone who might have a good excuse for what to hold back. No, thank you. I really appreciate learning about St. Paula. She also just seems to exemplify great feminine leadership as well, where she's able to support St. Jerome both intellectually, financially, generously, in friendship and in that communion. Together can create something so beautiful to give the church and even support him in creating that female monastery. Was it adjacent? It was just close by to St. John's community as well. So just seems like a wonderful example of bold feminine leadership as well in the life of. In her life.

C (20:53)

Thanks. Thanks for letting me talk about Paula.

B (20:54)

Yeah, that was fascinating. Thank you for listening and joining us on this life of St. Paula the Elder. And we hope you'll join us next time.

A (21:04)

Thank you for being a dedicated listener to the Catholic Saints podcast. Your support truly uplifts us. For those seeking additional thought provoking content, go to formed.org It's a platform brimming with resources, including insightful videos that align seamlessly with our podcast's themes. If you're finding value in our podcast, please consider taking a moment to leave us a review. Your feedback serves as a cornerstone for our growth and outreach.

B (21:37)

Sam.