Mary McGeehan (3:16)

Okay, okay. So I do know he's a popular saint of both the east and the West. So as you're saying, it makes sense that he still has a strong.

Dr. John Seehorn (3:23)

I wish he was more popular in the West. I don't know. I don't know how many people like, oh, yeah, Proclus, I know all about him.

Mary McGeehan (3:28)

That is true. It was just because this episode, I was refreshing.

Dr. John Seehorn (3:30)

We're making Saint Proclus famous again. Yeah, let's do it.

Mary McGeehan (3:34)

Let's go. So he was a secretary, he was a lector, he was. Was working underneath the bishop of Constantinople, Atticus, at that time.

Dr. John Seehorn (3:43)

That's right, yeah.

Mary McGeehan (3:45)

And we have some of his homilies from his own priesthood and life that we can still access today where we.

Dr. John Seehorn (3:52)

Learn a little bit about that. Yeah. From when he's a bishop. Yeah. So, well, you know. So, okay, I said that Atticus was Bishop till 425. You might think, well, what happened then? It seems to be the case that Proclus had every reasonable expectation to succeed Atticus as the bishop of Constantinople. But there was another kind of popular Presbyterian priest named Philip. And so there was some kind of competition between them and there was even a third party who was popular with the people. And so he was made bishop in 425, actually beginning at 426. So like Atticus dies end of 425. This new bishop is consecrated in 426. And Proclus seems to have taken it really well and been sort of reconciled with him. And so he actually says, okay, well, I want to make this guy a bishop. Proclus is really great. So there's another important city that's kind of across the Sea of Marmara from Constantinople. So modern day Turkey called Cyzicus.

Mary McGeehan (5:01)

Okay.

Dr. John Seehorn (5:02)

It's easier to say actually than to spell it. C, Y, Z I, C, U, S. Cyzicus. Okay.

Mary McGeehan (5:07)

Never heard of.

Dr. John Seehorn (5:08)

So there was a vacancy there. And so the bishop of Constantinople says, okay, we'll make Proclus bishop there. So he consecrates him and then he's about to set sail there and he finds out that they said no, we picked our own bishop. And Proclus just kind of takes it. So he's titular bishop of Cyzicus, but they won't accept him there. And he, he just decides to stay in Constantinople and sort of becomes popular as a preacher and as a kind of bishop without a church. So this bishop Sicinius only lives For a couple years.

Mary McGeehan (5:46)

Is this the bishop of Sicily?

Dr. John Seehorn (5:48)

No, the one who made proclamation. The one who is Constantinople.

Mary McGeehan (5:51)

Okay, thank you.

Dr. John Seehorn (5:53)

So he dies and just. End of 427, beginning of 428. Somewhere in there. And now, once again, it looks like it's gonna be Proclus or that guy Philip, Right? And like, there's. Both sides have. They've got supporters and they kind of cancel each other out. And so the emperor decides to send for an outsider. So he brings in this unknown monk from Antioch, from Syria, named Nestorius, a neutral partner. You may have heard of Nestorius, right? Nestorius just, you know, spoiler alert, is one of the most famous heret the Church's history. So Nestorius comes in and he's a pretty. He's known for being very ascetical. He's very serious. He, I think, drastically overestimates his own intelligence. Okay. And he sort of comes in and just thinks he notices what he's doing right away and he's shaking things up and making people upset. Well, he had brought with him a priest named Anastasius. There will be a test on all these names after the episode.

Mary McGeehan (7:02)

Should be right here.

Dr. John Seehorn (7:02)

Okay, maybe not. So Anastasius preaches this homily in which he says, you shouldn't call Mary Mother of God because Mary's just a woman and God can't have a human mother. That doesn't make any sense. Now, this might sound like he's denying the divinity of Christ. It's not so much that he really does believe that Christ is God, and he believes that Christ is man, but he thinks that we can sort of separate out the divinity and the humanity of Christ really effectively into two different persons. Right? Into two different subjects, and that you shouldn't sort of confuse them. Okay, so you shouldn't say that like the man Christ raised Lazarus from the dead, because that's really something only God can do. That was really God in Christ doing it. And you also shouldn't say things like, God died on the cross for us. Right? Because God as God can't die. Right? So he thinks, well, I'm just trying to make these sort of distinctions. Well, Christians have been calling Mary Mother of God and honoring her and praying to her as Theotokos Mother of God for a long, long time. People are like, what is wrong with this guy? Well, instead of trying to smooth things over, Nestorius sort of doubled down and gave a series of homilies, series of sermons defending Anastasius view and arguing that we should not call Mary Theotokos Okay. And so this got proclis, got a lot of people's attention.

Mary McGeehan (8:35)

It's an important topic.

Dr. John Seehorn (8:36)

It is an important topic, and it sort of sets off what's known as the Nestorian controversy. And the most famous proponent of orthodoxy in this controversy is. Do you remember Mary?

Mary McGeehan (8:47)

Keep going, you're on a roll.

Dr. John Seehorn (8:48)

Saint Cyril of Alexandria. Okay. But Proclus was also a very important player in this because Nestorius had been giving these sermons in sort of like the fall of 428. Well, recently the church in Constantinople had instituted a new feast in honor of Mary on the 26th of December, what's now the feast of St. Stephen for us. Okay. And on the 26th of December, Proclus got up and in the presence of Nestorius, he gave this absolute firestorm of a sermon in honor of Mary's divine motherhood and defending the use of the title Theotokos, Mother of God, to talk about Mary. And this drew wild applause. People loved it. Nestorius immediately got up and tried to start criticizing it, and it looks like they shouted him down, actually.

Mary McGeehan (9:44)

Is there by chance access to his criticism from that moment of preaching? That'd be pretty hard to find.

Dr. John Seehorn (9:49)

Nestorius. Yes, yes, there is a source. I don't have it to hand, so I can't quote from it right off the bat. But yes, we do have some indication of what Nestorius tried to say.

Mary McGeehan (10:01)

It's hard to know what heretics motives were, but from what I'm hearing, it seems as if he was adamant of trying to honor the divinity of God for the sake and for the sake of the people, not worshiping false gods. So the way we honor, you know, Mary or the way we honor Jesus, if we are honoring the human person, could that then fall, lead believers into idolatry because it is worshiping the human, not the God, et cetera, I guess I'm wondering.

Dr. John Seehorn (10:35)

Well, Nestorius was a little bit wishy washy about that. Okay. So he would say that he distinguished the divinity of humanity, but. But that he united the worship, that he did actually treat them effectively as one person, as one Lord Jesus Christ. But if you. But he wouldn't allow you to sort of say things like God suffered, God has a mother, things like that. And from the point of view of Proclus and then of Cyril of Alexandria and others in this controversy, that's actually to overturn the mystery of our salvation is to overturn the incarnation that the word really was made flesh, that Jesus really is God with us. He really is Emmanuel. Right. And they felt that, I think, rightly, that Nestorius was sort of shying away from that mystery. Right.

Mary McGeehan (11:24)

Almost a scandal of the mystery of the Incarnation.

Dr. John Seehorn (11:27)

Absolutely, the scandal of the Incarnation. So this sort of kicks off a big controversy. It leads to an ecumenical council in ephesus in year 431. In 431, okay. Nestorius has already been condemned by the Pope in Rome. And then he is condemned against the council. He is deposed from being patriarch or archbishop of Constantinople, sent into exile. So now finally, it's Proclus turn, only it's not. There were still objectors. It gets a little bit complicated. Don't worry about it too much. So there was another bishop this time, Maximian was his name. He only lived for a couple years. So actually, finally, in 434, Proclus becomes bishop of Constantinople, which then he is for the next 12 years. He dies in 446. So I suppose, Mary, the first thing that I think we can learn from Proclus is fortitude. Right. There are people who interpret him as a kind of career climber, but it seems to me that over and over there are signs of actually a profound humility. It's true that he knew he'd been sort of prepared to be archbishop of Constantinople. He knew he could do a lot of good pastorally in that capacity. And so in that sense, I think he was disappointed. Right. To be passed over three times when he had good expectations of becoming archbishop. And he sort of received those things in humility and moved on. And then also, of course, his courage in being willing to stand up in front of Nestorius.

Mary McGeehan (13:05)

Yes.

Dr. John Seehorn (13:06)

And stand up for the truth of the Incarnation. The truth of Our Lady's Divine motherhood.

Mary McGeehan (13:10)

No, that's a great point. And also boldness and the courage to not be afraid of offending the people who were followers of Nestorius at that time period.

Dr. John Seehorn (13:19)

Absolutely.

Mary McGeehan (13:20)

As wellness in the truth.

Dr. John Seehorn (13:21)

That's right. That's right.

Mary McGeehan (13:23)

No, that is very interesting. And how God still worked through him, even when he didn't necessarily have the official seat as bishop of Constantinople that he was prepared for since a young age. God still worked, when appropriate, through his leadership and his preaching.

Dr. John Seehorn (13:41)

I think, too, that his behavior when he did become archbishop really kind of backs up my argument that there was a kind of humility, even as he was disappointed in those previous opportunities, let's say that to become the archbishop. So he seems to have had a reputation actually for gentleness and kindness and even in opposition to some of his predecessors. So there's A Socrates, not the philosopher. There was a 5th century church historian who had the name Socrates, who clearly was a fan of Proclus and who says that unlike some other figures in the Church, that Proclus really was convinced that kindness was a more effective. Was more effective in the cause of truth than violence. Right. And there are a number of incidents that sort of bear this out. It's also a real point of contrast with Nestorius. So when Nestorius was brought from Syria and made archbishop in April of 428, right after his consecration, right in front of every. So all the. All the. All the important people in Constantinople there, including the emperor, and he addressed Emperor Theodosius ii and he said, my Prince, if you will purge the earth of heretics, I will give you heaven in recompense. And he says, destroy heretics for me and I will help you vanquish the Persians. Wow. Right. And then he goes out and just starts. It's like a bull in a china shop. Like, he destroys this chapel where Arians. Right. Aryan heretics have been worshiping. Now, I would join Nestorius in opposing Arianism, but this really turned out badly. In fact, when the Arians saw their chapel being burned. Sorry. Being destroyed, they set fire to it and it took out several adjacent buildings. And the other thing he didn't think about was the Arians who worshiped there. Many of them were Visigoths who formed the Emperor's bodyguard. So it's like he's not. He's just very rash and there's. Yeah, there's a bunch of things he does, like this. And that really wasn't Proclus's style. So one of his most illustrious predecessors as Archbishop of Constantinople was St. John Chrysostom. Okay. Chrysostom. Who'd become archbishop, Constantinople. The date, 397ish. Somewhere in there, he. For reasons that are still a little bit murky, but that partly had to do with his own fearless preaching, he was actually exiled in 404 and died a few years later in exile. Well, John was, as everybody knows, there's a reason we call him Chrysostom. Golden mouth, incredible preacher, amazing pastor. And he was still much beloved by many of the people in Constantinople who never really forgave kind of the Church and the administration in Constantinople for what had happened to John. And those sort of wounds were still open 30 years later. And one of the things that Proclus did was to have John's relics brought back to Constantinople. And so he was able to kind of effect a reconciliation and Bring some healing to that situation. Can I tell you another story about this? There's a really fascinating figure. Sorry, it's more names. Volusianus, not even an easy one. Volusianus was this kind of highly placed imperial official who was still a pagan. A lot of people in his family, he had multiple saints in his family, but he really held on to paganism. And at one point, he actually exchanged letters with St. Augustine, where Augustine was sort of challenging Volusianus on some things about paganism and Christianity, answering pagan objections to Christianity and inviting Volusianus to really consider being baptized. And Volusianus sort of politely said, thanks, but no thanks, right? And he stayed a pagan all the way through Augustine's death in 430. We'll fast forward a few more years to the year437. And Volusianus is in Constantinople, and he's very ill. He's in his final illness. He's on his deathbed. And he is visited by his niece, St. Melania the younger. Okay? And so Melania goes to her uncle. She's very concerned, right? Like, uncle, Volusianus is going to die, and he's not baptized, he's not a Christian. And so she goes and she shares her faith with him again, speaks to him about the Lord Jesus, invites him to reconsider, and he still says, yeah, no thanks, but no thanks. Well, then she's able to arrange it that Proclus, who at that time is the Bishop of Constantinople, can go and talk to him. And so she's not there for it, but Proclus goes and talks to Volusianus. And after Proclus leaves, Melania goes in. It's like, okay, uncle, how did it go? And now he doesn't say, I'm ready to be baptized, but he says, if there were three such men as that holy bishop, there would not be a single pagan left in Rome.

Mary McGeehan (19:02)

Oh, wow.

Dr. John Seehorn (19:02)

Right. And then, in fact, just not. Not too much later, when he really was, at the very moment of death, he called for Proclus, who came and baptized him just before his death. It's a really wonderful story. That's so neat, right? So you get a sense of not a man who just wants this office for its own sake, but who really is there to be a shepherd there. I don't want to go off on too many tangents, but there are so many ways in which we can see a sense of Proclus desire to uphold Orthodoxy courageously, but also to do his best to reconcile those who can be reconciled.

Mary McGeehan (19:40)

That's a great Highlight of the style of his leadership and preaching, too, through that strong kindness and almost emotional intelligence, like you said, to bring the relics back.

Dr. John Seehorn (19:48)

That's right. Emotional iq. That's right.

Mary McGeehan (19:50)

High emotional iq while still with that kindness as well. That's fascinating that this man Valusianus was surrounded by three saints. If he was. Or maybe it was Melania. Yes, that leads to that.

Dr. John Seehorn (20:07)

He was fairly respectful toward Christianity, but he was kind of like a little curmudgeon who was like, the old ways are good.

Mary McGeehan (20:15)

No, that's wonderful. Well, as we were wrapping up with St. Proclus, so we know he had the teachings on the Theotokos. What are there other legacies of his preaching or teachings that we still really go take? Absolutely.

Dr. John Seehorn (20:32)

Yeah, absolutely. So this is one of my favorite things about Proclus. So Saint Proclus, as you mentioned, really preached eloquently and powerfully about Our lady as the Theotokos and marvels at the scandal of the Incarnation. Right. That the eternal and infant God could really empty himself and become a baby, personally, in the womb of this woman. And so just I have a couple quotations from. Actually, this is from the one that he preached in the presence of Nestorius in 4:28. He says, whoever saw, whoever heard of God dwelling without restriction in a woman's womb, heaven itself cannot contain him. That's a reference to 1 Kings. When Solomon is dedicating the temple, heaven in the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this house that I've built. And so you see Mary's womb now as like a new temple. Okay? Heaven itself cannot contain him, and yet a womb did not constrict him. Then in another homily, this was actually a Christmas homily, he says, come and see the womb of a virgin wider than creation. For the one whom creation cannot contain is contained in her without constriction. Now, this is all really beautiful, but some people have read this in Proclus and said, oh, he's sort of distancing Mary from us. Right. Like, she's just like this up on a pedestal in a museum. We have no access to this. But what they're overlooking is that Proclus uses the very same language to talk about our faith. So in one of his homilies, he says, those who receive the sacred mystery in faith, and he's speaking here sort of like in the voice of Jesus, shall contain me in their hearts, whom heaven itself cannot contain. So that very same paradox is available to us through faith. So by faith, even though none of us are Theotokos. Mary alone is mother of Jesus according to the flesh. All of us can share in that mystery. And so it's actually an invitation for us to go deeper in our faith and to enter more deeply into the mystery of the incarnation of Jesus and of Mary's divine motherhood. It's not something that sort of seals Jesus and Mary off from us. It's something that sort of invites us to step out in faith and recognize the greatness of everyday Christian faith.

Mary McGeehan (22:59)

Yes. And would you say it is that faith that is the key, almost that unlocks the presence of God within us?

Dr. John Seehorn (23:08)

Absolutely. And even for Mary herself. Right. It's a unique blessing that she should become the mother of God according to the flesh, that her womb should contain the uncontainable one. But Jesus himself tells us that her real blessedness is her faith. Right. When the woman says, blessed is the womb that bore you and the breast that nursed you, he says, no, blessed, rather, those who hear the word of God and do it.

Mary McGeehan (23:31)

Beautiful. And it is that faith that it's not about the womb. It's about the faith that allows access to that present, which, as you said, we all can imitate as well. Like our blessed Mother. Beautiful meditations on the Eucharist as well, along that. Along those lines.

Dr. John Seehorn (23:47)

Oh, for sure.

Mary McGeehan (23:48)

As we are that tabernacle of carrying God's presence within us. Thank you. There are any other final thoughts about St. Proclus as we wrap up this episode? Covered a lot.

Dr. John Seehorn (23:58)

Yeah. No, I mean, I really think that he. It's edifying for me to think about his example of fortitude, of patience, of gentleness and kindness, all deeply rooted in this profound recognition of the mystery of God with us. Right. Made present in Our lady, but accessible to us by faith.

Mary McGeehan (24:18)

Yes. Imitates the humility of God, which he ponders so deeply as well. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Catholic Saints and Saint Proclus of Constantinople. Pray for us.

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