B (1:58)

Okay. I have a special attachment.

A (2:00)

I was wondering just for that reason. Yeah, that is sweet. Okay, well, give us a, you know, an intro biographical sketch of Saint Rose of Lima. Was she born in Peru? Where was she born, what was her family life like, et cetera? Wherever you'd like to start.

B (2:14)

Yeah. Yeah. So she. She was born in Peru in. In Lima. And. And. And she lived her entire short life there. Born in 1586 and then she died. 7:17 at the age of 31.

A (2:31)

Okay. Wow.

B (2:33)

If I have my math correct. Yeah. And so she was actually born Isabel Isabel Flores de Olivia. Olivia is her. Her mother's name, and her father was a Spanish colonist, and her mother was of Peruvian and Spanish descent. So she. She was born in a pretty well to do family and she got a. A good education, although her family fell into some financial straits. So they weren't uber wealthy or anything like this. Yeah, but the Spanish had been in the New world for almost 100 years. So in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. So when she was born, it had been almost 100 years. And her story is actually kind of similar in a lot of ways to St. Catherine of Siena, whom she emulated and really loved. So she very early on had a deep piety and wanted to become a nun. And she was a very beautiful young girl, and her parents wanted her to get married, which would have helped their family's kind of status in all of this. And so these two desires were opposed and this caused a lot of distress. And because she was beautiful, she had suitors. And so in order to pursue her own aims, which were God's aims, she cut her hair very short and she disfigured her face with like, pepper and like, lie. Yeah. So kind of brutal. But eventually her parents accommodated her to a certain extent and they at least made a room in their house where she could spend her days and nights in prayers. And so during the day she would. She grew flowers which she sold in the marketplace, and she embroidered things. Little, beautiful.

A (4:41)

That's lovely.

B (4:42)

Little things. I'm not exactly sure why you don't dabble in embroidery. I don't have. Yeah, I haven't done that. So. But for tabletops or.

A (4:51)

Yes.

B (4:52)

Veils or this kind of thing. Anyways, so she would do that during the day and then stay up most of the night. She slept about two hours a night. And so she had an intense life of prayer, and she was deeply devoted to the Eucharist, which she received every day.

A (5:09)

And.

B (5:10)

And she engaged in extremely harsh penances. So she had a silver crown that had points going into her head and.

A (5:21)

Interesting.

B (5:21)

This became like a health problem. Eventually one of them got stuck in her head. Flagellation.

A (5:28)

Okay.

B (5:28)

Yeah. So.

A (5:31)

Sorry, go ahead.

B (5:31)

Yeah, we're just deeply distressing. Yes, I guess.

A (5:35)

Okay, so she had a natural, almost proclivity to the suffering of Jesus and entering into that.

B (5:41)

Yes, that's right.

A (5:44)

Was Peru, from what you recall, a pretty Catholic country at this point because they had such strong Spanish influence? I mean, was this. Yeah. Was Catholicism pretty in the culture at this time period?

B (5:58)

Yeah, that's a good question. So it was certainly among the Spanish. And then they had been been sending missionaries also to the. To the native peoples of Peru and had had a lot of success. But these two things were mixed in difficult ways. And actually, this is something. Another kind of parallel of sorts with St. Catherine. They both had these families that opposed their vocations, and they both had little rooms in their houses where they prayed as. As children. And they both also had a sort of political role in the broad sense. So St. Rose recognized the oppression of the Peruvian people, that all. All the native people, and she advocated for them and served the poor, which was a little against the grain in general, but she had good company. Saint Martin de Porres was a contemporary and an advisor to her.

A (7:03)

Oh, neat.

B (7:03)

Okay. So, yeah, these two things are kind of mixed. There's the conquest and the empire, which comes with the Catholic culture and the missions. And so she's sort of a point where those things come into tension.

A (7:18)

Okay.

B (7:18)

Yeah.

A (7:19)

So she grew up very pious. Her parents wanted her to get married. They eventually surrendered to this.

B (7:26)

Yeah. So first they allowed her to have her own sort of private space for prayer and allowed her not to get married. But eventually, when she turned 20, around that age, her mother had a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary. And the vision said, this. This is what Mary said. This rose represents your daughter, my son's cherished flower. So she was seeing this rose. I plucked her for him from your garden, and he will not let her go. Only see how grateful he is to you for having tended her for him and having given her to me. And then says she, she hears Jesus saying, come, spouse of Christ, accept the crown the Lord has prepared for thee from eternity. And so then Olivia, her mother, didn't pose any more objections, and she became a Dominican tertiary, which was the same thing that St. Catherine was. It's not like a cloistered contemplative nun, so they can still be active, but she still wore a habit and these kinds of things.

A (8:35)

Wow. That vision, that was powerful.

B (8:37)

Yeah.

A (8:38)

You received that from the Blessed Mother, and then you said Jesus directly. Isabel. St. Rose heard that invitation to be caused.

B (8:47)

Yeah. So she could sort of see the vocation, like she could see the calling happen.

A (8:52)

Wow, that is really beautiful.

B (8:54)

Yeah, it's a really beautiful story.

A (8:56)

And is that when her name, she changed From Isabel to St. Mary's she.

B (9:00)

Actually took Rose as her name after she was confirmed earlier. So that became the name by which she was called. Yeah. There's another story, I don't know if it's true, of a servant having a vision, and her face was replaced with a rose. So that's related.

A (9:18)

We love our rose Stories.

B (9:19)

Yeah, we love our rose stories. That's the moral of it. Story.

A (9:23)

So tell me more about maybe her. Her charism, her legacy to the church. She said she was involved with political advocacy for the people.

B (9:33)

Yeah, yeah, that's right. So there's that element. So, yeah, she. I mean, it's kind of like when Jesus is left behind in the temple and they go back and Mary says, your father and I were really worried about you.

A (9:51)

And.

B (9:52)

And Jesus says, didn't you know I would be in my father's house or about my. My father's business? And so I think she's a good example of the tension that can occur between a vocation and then family life. And this caused her horrible suffering because in addition to being devoted to God, she was extremely devoted and obedient to her parents.

A (10:19)

Yeah.

B (10:20)

And so this kind of wrecked her emotionally. Like, she had deep distress over this. So that in itself, I don't know if that's a charism, but it's a beautiful witness to something that a lot of people experience.

A (10:35)

I would agree. I think there are today two people who are wanting to be obedient to their parents and continue that communion with them, of course, which is good and beautiful. But then sometimes they. Their desire to go all in or follow Jesus as a full, intense disciple. There might be some tension of sacrifice or confusion in. Of navigating that.

B (11:00)

Yeah, that's right. And she did it successfully. Like, she stayed obedient to them. She didn't do things that they forbade her from doing, and she continued to serve the family with her work. So she contributed the money she made from the flowers and from the embroidery.

A (11:18)

Yes, her family.

B (11:19)

And at some point, their family, like, lost their whole fortune. And there was. There was a miracle where she just received the money and gave it to her parents. So anyways, like, they were intentioned. But she didn't break the tension one way or the other, which is, I think, a beautiful thing.

A (11:35)

Yes. Okay, that's a great example. Why would you. Why do you think the Lord placed Saint Rosalima, you know, in Peru in this time and place of church history, or what else was with political advocacy? Were Catholics being persecuted in that time period or was there was just a lot of poverty and oppression and she was trying to support the people?

B (12:00)

Yeah, well, I think it might not be so different from other times and places, but in this period, she shows the mutual need for contemplation and activity. And. And these things were beautifully conjoined and complementary of each other in. In her life. So she was a contemplative who had mystical visions, but that didn't prevent her in any way from. From helping the poor and becoming like Christ in. In that other way.

A (12:37)

Yeah, that makes sense.

B (12:39)

Yeah.

A (12:40)

Wonderful. Are there any other. In this section, key legacies she's left for the church that we look to her today in remembrance of.

B (12:50)

Yeah. I think one is her acceptance of the suffering of Christ and the form of penance she took is maybe not an example for almost anyone, but. Yeah, she had a deep devotion to the suffering of Christ and she accepted that willingly on behalf of the rest of the world.

A (13:17)

Yeah.

B (13:18)

And then there's also an episode in her life which is common among saints, that she experienced extreme spiritual aridity, dryness. And she told this to her adviser, St. Martin de Porres, and. And he says to her, or he's recounted as saying, that the thing that would be most surprising is if she didn't experience this, and that this was a. A purification of God that he was giving to her as a gift. He. And he says, you should find in this. In the very violence of your trial, a source of encouragement since he purifies most those for whom he has destined the most perfect union with himself. And this is not something that St. Martin came up with himself. It's a kind of perennial teaching of the church.

A (14:12)

But, yeah, it's a great way to look at suffering.

B (14:14)

Yeah, it is a good way to think about suffering. It's an important thing to think about when things are fine, because you need to have that in the front of your mind when things go poorly, because that's when we're least able to remember these things. Kinds of truths, I think.

A (14:28)

Yes. The sharp kiss of love.

B (14:31)

Yes. Yeah, that's right.

A (14:33)

And did you say Saint Martin was her spiritual director or they were just contemporaries? She looked to him as an advisor.

B (14:40)

Yeah, that's right. He served as her advisor on a number of occasions.

A (14:44)

Okay, that is really neat. Yeah, Very good. What particular images or symbols are there, particular prayers that are associated with St Rose of Lima that we would recognize her or we would use that are associated with her?

B (15:04)

Yeah, there are some. I was just reading the collect, which I didn't write down, unfortunately, from her feast day, which is very beautiful, but she's obviously associated with roses.

A (15:14)

Roses, yes. Very good. I'm wondering if there's a St. Therese connection there as well.

B (15:21)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if direct influence, but part of the same.

A (15:27)

Yes.

B (15:27)

Spiritual world, I guess. Yeah.

A (15:30)

There's always a connection with Saint Tr. Yeah, we're all connected one day.

B (15:33)

She reached far and wide.

A (15:35)

Yes. Well, wonderful. It sounds like a beautiful, beautiful woman. And then you said she died pretty young, potentially around early 30s. Was. Do we know? Was it an illness or what was the reason for her death at such a young age?

B (15:52)

Yeah, I mean, I think the reason owes to her extreme forms of penance, likely.

A (16:00)

Okay.

B (16:00)

Yeah.

A (16:01)

Okay. Very good. Great. And anything else about Saint Rose of Lima?

B (16:09)

Yeah, I just think she's a beautiful witness for courage and for the embrace of suffering, for personal transformation, but then also the transformation of the world.

A (16:27)

Yeah.

B (16:28)

We're all stuck in a world of sin. And even if we can't change that in, like, a concrete way, always, or at least can only change very small concrete things, the acceptance of suffering in prayer and penance can bring. Bring salvation to the world.

A (16:51)

Absolutely. So it sounds like, in addition to that, she has a particular grace for integration of, you know, there's. How do I be a contemplative. How do I be involved in, you know, the advocacy for the poor people in my town, you know, involved in politics, but also rooted deeply in prayer while also being very integrated and loving of my family. There's just a lot of tensions, and it's hard sometimes to triage all of the priorities and polls those things can take us, so.

B (17:26)

Right. And we can't all only sleep two hours a night.

A (17:29)

No. That's a good reminder.

B (17:30)

But we can all make time for prayer, and if we do that, then if we're patient, God will find a way through these tensions.

A (17:38)

Yes.

B (17:39)

Yeah.

A (17:39)

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for this reflection about Saint Rose of Lima.

B (17:43)

Yeah. I'm very, very happy to have been able to talk about her.

A (17:47)

And thank you all for listening. On this episode of Catholic Saint.