Dr. Jean Paul Juge (2:16)

You're in the public eye now in a different way. Yeah, well, and it's nice to be in a public eye with approval. And you know, that's true.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (2:24)

The first year being pope was a good job.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (2:26)

That's right.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (2:26)

Pope Sylvester. That's right. Yeah.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (2:28)

A lot of high approval rates early in his term.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (2:31)

So how do we know about him? Or do we know anything else about him?

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (2:35)

Right. Yeah. So one interesting thing is that Alexander of Alexandria, the aptly named Bishop of Alexandria, right, he was a major leader against Arius, leading into the Council of Nicaea. And we know he wrote a letter to Sylvester. We have a fragment of this. So this is an early indication that Pope Sylvester, even though all the way in Rome, is very interested and involved in the ongoing doctrinal disputes, right. In Eastern Christianity. But also, we have this book, which is a combination of legends and facts called the Book of Popes or the Liber Pontificalis. And it gives us, again, some interesting stories, but also, I think, buried in there, some credible historical information about his papacy.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:22)

So is the Book of Popes, like, is that a good read? Should I, like, get it on my nightstand or, like, what's this book like?

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (3:27)

I think it definitely has some entertaining legends in there. The information becomes probably a little bit more accurate and historical once you go past the seventh century. I'm not. Not exactly an expert on this, but from. From what I can judge, that we have to take things with a grain of salt early on. So, for example, one of the legends is that Sylvester healed Constantine of leprosy, and in gratitude, Constantine gives his. His famous donation of wealth to the Church.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (3:58)

So this is so one thing that happened during Sylvester's reign, because Constantine legalizes Christianity and then becomes a patron of the Church, is that you have a lot of wealth coming into the church. Churches are starting to be built, the treasure starting to collect. It's actually kind of funny now just now with you saying that there's this legend of him healing Constantine of leprosy, and that's why Constantine gave all this money. Probably not the case. We don't have any attestation of Constantine having leprosy. However, you know, you're a good fundraiser when someone needs to make up a miracle story to explain how much money the Emperor gave you.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (4:34)

So it. It really is astonishing. So in this Book of Popes, they're very, very brief entries for each pope, and then you get to Sylvester, and there's very little about Sylvester's life. It just kind of goes on and on, listing the different, you know, land grants and precious metals that were all donated to the use of the Church. So it almost would take a miracle to kind of explain this.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (4:54)

So this is kind of like the Exodus log of, like, all the pounds of gold.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (4:58)

It does sort of read like that. And I do wonder if there's an intentional. Right. Hearkening back a couple notable things, right? So Constantine builds or constructs the Basilica of St. John Lateran, which initially. Right. Had two 5 foot tall silver statues of Jesus on different sides and then five foot tall statues of the apostles. Right. He built the original Basilica of St Peter and then among other basilicas. And then one thing I found really interesting reading from the book ahead of time was that he put 150 pound gold cross on the tombs of St. Peter and on St. Paul, which aren't there anymore. So maybe during the Arab, Arab raid.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (5:39)

And the, you know, she melted down for some different blame.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (5:41)

Yeah. It probably got looted later on in the.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (5:43)

That's really interesting. I mean, I'm sure you don't know, but it would be, you know, because they found the other tomb of St. Peter's later that's like buried more deeply. If you go on the scabby tour of Rome, it'd be interesting if there's any evidence of Sylvester's involvement or where those artifacts might have gone.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (5:58)

But yeah, I mean, but there's certainly a lot of truth. Right. To the different basilicas that were constructed or the mausoleum where Helena Constantine's mother's buried. And just the sheer astonishing list of precious metals that were donated for altars and chandeliers for cathedrals.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (6:14)

And the later legends portray him as being pretty close to Constantine, but we actually know his relationship with Constantine and Helena other than that he hit them up for mad cash for the church.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (6:25)

Yeah. So I always think of Evelyn Waugh's novel Helena, where Sylvester doesn't get the greatest portrayal. But I think precisely there's this temptation to be cynical about someone who was so closely involved with great wealth, but having him recognized as a saint. I certainly think he's an example of someone who had to be, you know, as, as wise as a serpent but innocent as a dove to negotiate this sort of wealth in a way that was holy and, you know.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (6:56)

Yeah. And it's very difficult, as we know from famously. Right. Gregory the Great complains about how worldly he has to be in the role of the Pope and how he wishes he didn't have to spend so much time thinking about temporal matters and worldly things. But he does. And then this becomes sort of a near occasion of sin for him. Gregor the Great of was a monk and wanted to be a monk, but it really speaks to that sacrifice of an able administrator. Because you, you mentioned the letter of Alexander to S. Sylvester. And for those of you interested in the early papacy, the Pope is often sort of the court of appeal where people will send letters, but the Popes themselves were rarely major theologians. I mean, they are. There are exceptions, obviously, with Leo the Great, Gregor the Great later, but they've got their hands full of, you know, like, they are dealing with all of the notorious problems in Rome.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (7:53)

And Rome is a very deeply pagan city still, even in early in Sylvester's reign. Right. And so a lot of the basilicas that are built are on the fringe of the city. And so, you know, he's still. It's not like Rome is immediately super Christian.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (8:09)

They're not giving him prime real estate.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (8:11)

Yeah. He still got to negotiate with all kinds of conflict just in his own city, let alone dealing with, you know, disputes in Alexandria.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (8:18)

Right, yeah. Well, some people are sometimes surprised that the Pope wasn't as involved in convening the Council of Nicaea. He didn't go. He sent a delegation and sort of adjudicates from afar. But it's kind of like, I don't know what you guys are fighting over there. I got stuff to do. Like, I have my hands full over here.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (8:38)

Like, of course he's. Of course he's fully divine and true God. What are you. What are you arguing about?

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (8:41)

Yeah. There is a bit of a sense that the Westerners are like, we. We already know this stuff. I don't know what you guys are on about, but he has this sort of. This is something that the Pope is really important for. Generally, that it's easy to say, but it's also easy to underestimate, which is that the Pope unifies the Church. There is a leader of the Church, and he makes it hold together. And you think like, duh. But there are a lot of other churches that don't have a head of that kind and experience schism after schism after schism. And the Church isn't immune to it. But we have been largely schism resistant, much more schism resistant. And this owes to the office of the Pope. And this owes to things like boring administrators who spend time raising money and doing administrative tasks in Rome while other theologians are having more fun.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (9:31)

No, that's right. I mean, I think you asked about the relationship between Sylvester and Constantine, and I am certain that both of them had a shared concern about unifying the Church. Right. And for Constantine, there would be political reasons, obviously, for wanting to keep your empire together. And that would have matched well as common ground with Sylvester's, you know, desire to keep the Church united. And so there's a careful negotiation of secular power in order to accomplish this.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (9:58)

Yeah. And even in Sylvester's time, you know, you have Christians speaking multiple languages, you have the Eastern and Western empire. You have political difficulties between various parts of the empire. And it's sort of different to be part of a church that sees the empire as the enemy and you're unified against this enemy. To all of a sudden, is the empire your enemy or how are we going to negotiate this new relationship?

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (10:24)

Yeah, I always think it must have been kind of unthinkable right for the empire to make. It's not just like when a celebrity converts nowadays, but if you can imagine the empire that about 10 years ago had the most massive and systematic persecution under Diocletian and now not only things tolerated, but Constantine is, is just donating his wealth.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (10:46)

I mean, yeah, totally. I mean, this has come up in other podcasts for this period, if you listen. But this is sort of one of the great reversals of history where Christians face the so called great persecution under Diocletian, right before Constantine is emperor, becomes Christian and legalizes Christianity in the empire. And so to go from being killed for the faith to be having the face sort of promoted by the Empero, it's like almost unthinkable. And the sort of theological temptations of that are legion. You know, there's some people who are like basically, oh, we converted the Roman Empire, it's over, Christianity won. And that's, it's a lot more complicated than that, obviously. But it takes some pretty steadfast characters to negotiate that, change that, and to.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (11:29)

Temper hopes about what it means for the future, you know, to have the secular power. Right. That there's all kinds of dangers and temptations that come with it. And yeah, it's important.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (11:39)

I don't know, but I'm building some nice churches.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (11:42)

That's right.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (11:44)

The first thing I'm doing. So we've already talked sort of about what we know about Pope Sebastian's life and a little bit of his legacy, which in some ways is the artifacts of Rome, those beautiful churches and the sort of solidity that we associate with the Church of Rome. But what are some things maybe we might think sort of to take to prayer or so for our daily lives from Pope Sylvester.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (12:07)

Yeah, I think, you know, to the point that we were just speaking to, you know, he's a great example even today, even though we don't have as much detail as we like about his example. Right. An example of being a good steward. Right. Of wealth, of gifts. Right. That, you know, in a very excessive way with Sylvester, of being good steward of them and using them rightly and, and bringing all of these gifts to the, to the worship of God. And so even if we don't have emperors donating all of their wealth and estates to us right there, but you never know. And I don't want to write it off and any emperors feel free to reach out, but to bring our gifts and even wealth and secular abilities and privileges to the right worship of God.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (12:55)

Yeah. I also was thinking, you know, for those who've worked in any context, a virtuous administrator is an amazing thing. And they're often the unsung heroes of many organizations and of the church, but often contribute very greatly to the health of the church and even the ability of other holy people who are married, more charismatic or teachers to flourish. And so if you're one of those people who is behind the scenes working the life of holy administration, know that your gifts are appreciated in the church and often lead to the church's flourishing. So really interesting stuff.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (13:36)

Yeah. And to your last point, unsung hero, it's probably precisely that where all we really know about him. Right. Is all the wealth he had to deal with. But he definitely seems to have been. He's more on the quiet side of history books.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (13:50)

Right. It's not necessarily a bad thing to leave history the bottom line.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (13:53)

That's right.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (13:54)

You know, it's almost like we got his balance sheet and we're like, this dude did it right.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (13:57)

Yeah, he did it good. Yeah, it's the proof's in the pudding, isn't so?

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (14:00)

All right. One last joke that occurred to me is if anyone out there is in fundraising, you could take Pope Sylvester as your patron. And because his feast is 31st December, last tax day of the year, to get your donations in now, you could always thank for on a St. Sylvester campaign.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (14:18)

I did ask Dr. Klein, was this all just Constantine's tax write off? And he said, well, he is the.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (14:22)

Emperor, so he's collecting the tax.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (14:25)

He is the governor. That's right.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (14:27)

All right, well, thank you so much. This was great.

Dr. Jean Paul Juge (14:29)

Super fun to be here. Thank you.

Dr. Elizabeth Klein (14:30)

St. Sylvester, pray for us.

Podcast Host / Announcer (14:34)

Thank you for being a dedicated listener to the Catholic Saints podcast. Your support truly uplifts us. For those seeking additional thought provoking content, go to formed.org it's a platform brimming with resources, including insightful videos that align seamlessly with with our podcast's themes. If you're finding value in our podcast, please consider taking a moment to leave us a review. Your feedback serves as a cornerstone for our growth and outreach.