St. Thomas the Apostle

Summary

Podcast Summary: Catholic Saints – Episode: St. Thomas the Apostle

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Host: Mary McGhehan
Guest: Dr. Ben Akers, Chief Content Officer, Augustine Institute

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Introduction

In the July 3, 2025 episode of Catholic Saints, produced by the Augustine Institute, host Mary McGhehan engages in an insightful discussion with Dr. Ben Akers about St. Thomas the Apostle. This episode delves into the life, personality, and enduring legacy of St. Thomas, aiming to inspire listeners through his example as a faithful apostle.

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Understanding St. Thomas Among the Apostles

Mary McGhehan opens the conversation by emphasizing the series' goal: to explore the lives of saints in heaven and draw inspiration for contemporary faith lives. Dr. Ben Akers highlights that St. Thomas is one of the few apostles with recorded words in the Gospels, making his character and actions particularly accessible for study.

[00:37] Dr. Ben Akers: "St. Thomas is one of the 12 apostles, so these men just stand out as we're looking at in the history of the church."

The Name and Nickname of Thomas

The discussion moves to Thomas's name origins. While the Synoptic Gospels refer to him simply as Thomas, John's Gospel calls him Thomas the Twin or Didymus, suggesting he had a twin—a detail that adds depth to his personal story, though the twin's identity remains unknown.

[01:25] Mary McGhehan: "So Thomas is one of those named apostles called by Christ and then responded positively."

Scriptural Insights into Thomas's Personality

Dr. Akers guides listeners through key scriptural passages that illuminate Thomas's character:

1. Mark 3:13-19 – The calling of the apostles, where Jesus appoints the twelve, including Thomas. This passage underscores the role of discipleship, emphasizing being with Jesus as a precursor to being sent out as apostles.

   [05:06] Mary McGhehan: "That's beautiful."

2. John 11 – The story of Lazarus, where Thomas exhibits courage by expressing his willingness to die alongside Jesus despite the dangers in Judea.

   [09:11] Mary McGhehan: "Yes."

3. John 14 – During the Last Supper, Thomas questions Jesus about the way to the Father, prompting Jesus's profound declaration: "I am the way and the truth and the life."

   [11:38] Dr. Ben Akers: "So thank you, Thomas, for asking that question."

4. John 20 – The episode that earned Thomas the nickname "Doubting Thomas," where he demands physical proof of Jesus's resurrection, leading to a powerful affirmation of faith.

   [15:12] Dr. Ben Akers: "Yes. Right."

These passages collectively portray Thomas as a man of action, courage, and sincere inquiry, rather than mere doubt.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Ben Akers on apostles’ role:

  [05:06] "He created them to do acts, to be with him, to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons."

• Mary McGhehan reflects on Thomas's bravery:

  [10:14] "Yeah, and also just encouragement that if you feel you are far away from the Lord, or if you are in some trouble to go back to the Lord."

• Dr. Ben Akers on the significance of Thomas's doubt:

  [24:18] "The disbelief of Thomas has done more for our faith than the faith of the other apostles."

• Mary McGhehan highlights Thomas's model for faith:

  [28:01] "Yeah. So St. Thomas is a wonderful model for us of someone who encourages you."

The Legacy and Martyrdom of St. Thomas

The conversation transitions to the historical and traditional accounts of St. Thomas's missionary work and martyrdom. Dr. Akers explains that, following Jesus's Great Commission, Thomas traveled to regions beyond the Roman Empire, notably India, where he is believed to have established churches such as the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Catholic Churches. His martyrdom in India and the distribution of his relics, including the famous finger relic in Rome, are testament to his enduring legacy.

[25:02] Mary McGhehan: "And you said he was martyred. Do we know the specifics of his death?"

[26:54] Dr. Ben Akers: "But if you like to visit his finger, this is where Catholic stuff gets weird."

Lessons from St. Thomas on Doubt and Faith

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to understanding the role of doubt in faith, using Thomas as an exemplar. Dr. Akers distinguishes between doubts (persistent disbelief) and difficulties (challenges in understanding faith). He emphasizes that Thomas's journey from doubt to unwavering belief showcases the path to deeper faith through honest questioning and seeking answers from God.

[21:07] Dr. Ben Akers: "A doubt is like, you know, I'm just giving the theological definition an obstinate. I will not believe."

Mary McGhehan underscores the importance of approaching God with honest questions, fostering a more profound and resilient faith.

[28:01] Mary McGhehan: "Yes, ask those honest questions before our Lord. That's beautiful. Thank you."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Dr. Ben Akers summarizing the invaluable lessons from St. Thomas's life:

• Bravery and Leadership: Thomas's willingness to risk his life alongside Jesus exemplifies true leadership among the apostles.

• Sincere Inquiry: His questions, though perceived as doubts, demonstrate a sincere desire to understand and believe, setting a model for believers to engage with their faith authentically.

• Faith Through Doubt: Thomas's transformation from skepticism to profound declaration of faith ("My Lord and my God") illustrates that doubt can lead to strengthened belief and deeper understanding.

Mary McGhehan echoes these sentiments, encouraging listeners to embrace the example of St. Thomas by bringing their questions and doubts to God, trusting in His guidance to overcome uncertainties.

[27:58] Mary McGhehan: "Well, St. Thomas the Apostle pray for us."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Catholic Saints offers a comprehensive exploration of St. Thomas the Apostle, presenting him not just as the "doubting" disciple, but as a courageous leader and a model of sincere faith. Through scriptural analysis and theological insights, listeners are encouraged to view doubt as a stepping stone to deeper belief, inspired by Thomas's journey from skepticism to proclamation of faith.

For those interested in further exploring the lives of saints, the Augustine Institute offers additional resources and encourages listeners to become Mission Circle Partners to help share the Gospel's truth and beauty globally.

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To watch this interview in video format or access other Catholic content, visit form.org. For more information on supporting the Augustine Institute, visit missioncircle.org.

Transcript

[Mary McGhehan]

You're listening to a podcast on Catholic Saints. This podcast is produced by the Augustan Institute, an apostolate helping Catholics understand, live and share their faith. Hi, welcome to Catholic Saints. My name is Mary McGhehan and I am joined with Dr. Ben Akers, Chief Content Officer here at the Gus Institute. Thanks for joining. We are going to discuss St. Thomas the Apostle, and this series is really to learn about our saints in heaven. Look to them for inspiration for us in our lives today. So excited to dive in to St. Thomas the Apostle.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

St. Thomas is one of the 12 apostles, so these men just stand out as we're looking at in the history of the church. And what's interesting about St. Thomas is he's actually one of the few apostles that we have words from as we look at the Gospel.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So some of the apostles we don't have a single word from.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

They're in the scenes. Remember to be an apostle. We look Acts of the apostles, when Judas has denied our Lord, betrayed our Lord, and then commits suicide. They are looking for another apostle to take his place. And they say he has been with us from the beginning, from the baptism of John at the Jordan all the way to having seen him risen from the dead. So this is like one of the qualifications of an apostle is to know Jesus from the beginning and see him risen from the dead.

[Mary McGhehan]

Correct.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Thomas is one of those named apostles called by Christ, named. And we know him as Thomas the Apostle. It's actually Matthew, Mark and Luke just give his name as Thomas. It's John's Gospel that adds Thomas the twin, or Didymus in Greek is twin. So that's what his name means. But we probably know him as Doubting Thomas.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So that's what he's most famous for.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. So he's in the inner circle of Jesus, one of his 12. Not just a leader, disciple, a true apostle. And do we know what does Didymus mean? Do we know what.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

He's a twin. Yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

But did he actually have a twin?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Well, we assume so.

[Mary McGhehan]

Okay.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

We don't know the twin's name.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

But is it interesting though, that if he is a twin, we don't know what happened to his twin? But that's, you know, think of all the people we don't know the name of because they weren't called by Christ and they didn't say yes to Christ's invitation. Thomas is one of the ones. I mean, we have stories in the Gospel where the rich young man comes, I want to follow you. And what do I need to do to have salvation. Jesus says, go sell everything you have. Obey the commandments, and the man walks away sad. There are people, lord, I want to follow you, but first I need to bury my father. So there are people in the Gospel accounts that we have, that we have records of, but then also, I'm sure many more that we don't have records for of Jesus calling them and saying, you come follow me. And. And they don't.

[Mary McGhehan]

Right? Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

But Thomas is one of the ones that was called by Christ and then responded. Responded positively. Yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. Okay. So St. Thomas the Apostle, his feast day is July 3rd. So we know we can look to learn about him through the Gospels, which I'd like you to share maybe the key places in the Gospels where we can learn about him. But a side question I have is, are there other sources that we can learn about St. Thomas as well?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Sure. Other than Scripture? Yeah, other than Scripture, I'd say Origen mentions him. We have fathers of the church, like St. Gregory the Great has this beautiful reflection on St. Thomas for his feast day. So if you do the office of readings, the divine office every morning, priests religious, the Pope, your own pastor, your bishop reads the office of readings and prays it. And there's always a reading from Scripture and then maybe a document of the church, but many times from the fathers of the church or saints. And St. Gregory the Great is for the feast day of July 3rd for Thomas the Apostle has a beautiful reflection on him, but. So that's the Father of the Church. Origen would be an ecclesiastical writer that mentions what Thomas, where he goes after meeting Christ. And then Eusebius is an early church historian, and he mentions Thomas as well.

[Mary McGhehan]

Very good. Great. Okay. So where in Scripture can we look to learn about Thomas uniqueness, since we have so many words he actually spoke to the Lord, I think we uniquely get to learn a little bit more about his personality.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

That's right. Yeah. So we see his personality with. I want to start with actually Mark 3, where he doesn't say anything. But Mark 3 is where Jesus calls the apostles by name. We have accounts like this in Matthew and Luke as well. And the Acts of the apostles are listed. But in Mark chapter three, it tells us the posture of a disciple of Christ and then what they're called to be as an apostle of Christ. So this is when Jesus goes up the mountain. So In Mark chapter 3, verses 13 to 19, he, Jesus goes up the mountain. He calls to him those whom he desired, and they came to him, and he appointed 12. Does your translation say appointed.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yep. And he appointed 12.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So appointed 12. Some translations there will say ordained. That's the King James version. He elected 12, he chose 12. The Greek word there is created. So he's creating these 12 men.

[Mary McGhehan]

That's beautiful.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

He creates 12. And what does he create them to be? It's a purpose clause in Greek. He created them to do acts, to be with him, to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons. Simon, who he surnamed Peter, James, the son of Zebedee, John, the brother of James, whom he surnamed Banerges. So the sons of thunder, James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas. James, the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Canaan, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. So I love that. This line that tells us he appoints 12, he creates 12 to be with him, then he sends them out to be preached and have authority to cast out demons. And here's the list of the 12. So what is the posture of a disciple? First and foremost, to be with Jesus. And from being with Jesus, then you're sent out. So a disciple is someone who follows Jesus. An apostle is someone who's sent out. That's what apostle means, to send out. So they move from disciples to apostles in this scene. They're sent out to preach and to cast out demons and hears their name. So when we see the apostles in the Gospels and the rest of the stories of the Gospels, if they're not with Jesus, it doesn't always go well. They're running away from him. They're not close to him. And we're going to see in Thomas's responses to our Lord these three key scenes in John's Gospel. He's trying to be with our Lord. If he's not with our Lord, then he's doubting whether or not he rose from the dead. So this is a key for us, and what takeaway for us is to be with our Lord. That's the goal of being a disciple of Christ. Then going out and doing what he's asked us to do.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yeah, and also just encouragement that if you feel you are far away from the Lord, or if you are in some trouble to go back to the Lord, return, turn to him in that apostolic mindset as well.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah, that's great. All right, so we're going to turn to John's Gospel. Three passages in John's Gospel that give us insight into Thomas. So John chapter 11, John, chapter 14, and John chapter 20. So these are the three passages we're going to we're going to go through in John, chapter 11. That's the story of Lazarus, the great friend, the brother of Martha and Mary, this whole family and Bethany, very good friends with Jesus. And he dies. Lazarus dies. So we're in John, chapter 11, verses 5 through 16. Can you read that for us, Mary?

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So John 11, they just heard about Lazarus.

[Mary McGhehan]

5 through 16.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

Now, Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So when he heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was. Then after this, he said to the disciples, let us go to Judea again. The disciples said to him, rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again? Jesus answered, are there not 12 hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble because he sees the light of this world. But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles because the light is not in him. After saying these things, he said to them, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him. The disciples said to him, lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover. Now, Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest and sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, lazarus has died. And for your sake, I am glad that I was not there so that you may believe. But let us go to him. So Thomas called the twin, said to his fellow disciples, let us also go that we may die with him.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

I want to give some context to that, because we just said, what did Thomas say? He says, let us also go that we may die with him. Like, wait, what do you mean, dying? Because we started with John 11. The last time Jesus was in Judea, around the city of Jerusalem, the region there, they tried to stone him to death for claiming that he was identifying with God, for saying that he was God. And Jesus is like, let's go back there. They're like, well, are you sure you want to do that? And the disciples, like, are you sure that's a good idea, Jesus? And we show his. Like, you know, it is kind of humorous when we read the Gospels, like, Jesus, like, we're going to do this. And the disciples are like, are you sure you want to do that? You know, and there's this innocence. There's this, you know, what we want to take away from that is they feel comfortable asking Jesus about things.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And that's good. But they're gonna go to Lazarus. And the apostles are also humorous here where, like, Lazarus has fallen asleep. He means dead. They think he's asleep. They're like, well, if he's asleep, he's gonna wake up again. That's how sleep works. God, I didn't know if you knew this, but when you fall asleep, they wake back up, Right? So there's some humor here. And Jesus has to tell. Speak plainly. No, Lazarus is dead. And I'm glad that he's not there, that I was not there, so that you may believe. So there's a miracle that's going to happen that's going to lead to belief. This is also setting up for the last scene in John chapter 21 that we meet Thomas. But there's a miracle. I'm going to show you a miracle so that you will believe. I'll raise Lazarus from the dead. Let's go. And then Thomas turns to the 12, the 11 that he's with the other apostles. Like, let's go, let's. So we can also die with him. There's a great bravery in this man of courage, of like, all right. Jesus says he's on the move. We know that last time that we were there, they wanted to kill him. Let's go. Yes, let's go die with him.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yep. And leadership.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah, leadership in the. Among the 12. And he's like, let's go. Let's die with him. So I think one of the things that we'll see in the scenes is a man of action. He doesn't mind speaking up at key moments. He's also a courageous person in a lot of ways. So that's the first scene that we see in John's Gospel. Let's go, and let's go die with him. The next thing that we see, John, that we see Thomas in John's Gospel is John, chapter 14. And in John, chapter 14, we're at the Last Supper, and Jesus is giving his final discourse. He's talking to the apostles about what? You know, he's just washed their feet, he's instituted the Eucharist, and now he's giving us what's called sometimes a farewell discourse or. And so we're in John, chapter 14. Do you want to read verses one through seven for us?

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God. Believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am, you may also be. And you know the way to where I am going. Thomas said to him, lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way? Jesus said to him, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So thank you, Thomas, for asking that question. Because this is one of the greatest lines that we have of Jesus saying, I am the way, the truth and the life. Jesus saying that is a response to a question from Thomas.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So in the Last Supper, another thing that comes out in this section is, let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. So we just saw in John chapter 11 about, I'm gonna do a miracle so you can believe. Now he's like, okay, I want you guys to believe in me. I'm gonna go somewhere. So that action that we talked about before, let's go that we may die with him. Lord, we don't know where you're going. Where are you gonna go? So we can be there, right? And what does Jesus says, where I go, I will come again and take you to myself. That where I am, you may also be. What's the posture of a disciple? To be Lord. So Tom was like, great, you're going somewhere. Let's go. So John 11, you're going to die. Great, let's go with you. I hear you're talking about you're going to your father's house. Let's go. Where is that? I want to be there. I want to be with you.

[Mary McGhehan]

That makes sense. I have not noticed that before.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And I just. What we see in Thomas, if we're trying to a portrait of his personality coming out in these short. Just these three phrases that we have from him, he's brave again. He's asking Jesus for an explanation. No one else is.

[Mary McGhehan]

Jesus courageously asking. Yeah, which I appreciate. I feel like he gets a bad rap sometimes of doubting Thomas. But thank you, Thomas, for helping us logically understand what's going on here.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

That's exactly right. Jesus is saying things like, I don't exactly understand what you're saying, and I don't understand, but I know you have the answer, Lord, so help me understand. And so I think Thomas gives us an example of what sincere prayer looks like too. Jesus says things and asks things of our lives that we always don't know how to interpret them, how to understand. And he very quickly says, I don't know what you're talking about. We don't know the way. Can you Tell us. And then Jesus delivers that incredible line, I am the way, the truth and the life. And so we have Thomas to thank for that. So a model of prayer and sincere asking.

[Mary McGhehan]

Very good. I love that.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

The next time is the famous story. So John, chapter 20 of the Doubting Thomas, where he gets the bad rap of being the doubting Thomas. So we're in John, chapter 20. If you're following along in your Bible, would you mind reading 20 verses 24 to 29?

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. Now, Thomas, one of the 12 called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, we have seen the Lord. But he said to them, unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails and place my finger into the mark of the nails and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So we have this scene of it's Easter Sunday and Thomas is not there. We don't know where he went. You know, Tim Gray here likes to joke that he probably went out to breakfast. He was brave enough to go get breakfast. And then the other guys did it, like, you know, but that would interesting. He goes. He's like, let's go. He seems like a man of action, probably, you know, high energy. He's not there. And then they come back and like, no, we saw him. He's like, no, I will not believe unless I put my hand in the side, my fingers in the wound. Like, that's pretty extreme, right? That seems like he's a strong doubting. Now, I heard a priest reflect on this and he says he knows twins. And he said, we know Thomas is a twin. So maybe that fact is actually important to the story because twins like to play tricks, especially if they're identical twins.

[Mary McGhehan]

Oh, yes, that's true.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And so they like the teacher, are you that one or are you that one? Right. What are the names and play tricks. So the interpretation was a lighthearted interpretation, but it might have some truth to it is twins are used to playing tricks on people. He's like, are these guys playing a trick on me? Because it is outrageous to believe that a dead man is living again.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. Right.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

And so maybe he's just like, look, I'm not going to be fooled by this. And that kind of twin, his name twin is a. Is a clue to that kind of interpretation of the scene.

[Mary McGhehan]

Interesting. Yeah. And once again, exemplifying that leadership, too, to push back a little bit on what his other brothers are saying here.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yes. So we go on. If you mind reading, let's start in verse 26 through his proclamation.

[Mary McGhehan]

Eight days later, his disciples were inside again and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, put your finger here and see my hands, and put out your hand and place it in my side. Do not just believe, but believe. Thomas answered him, my Lord and my God. Jesus said to him, have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So one of the incredible lines of all scripture, Thomas declaration that Jesus is God and Lord. And then the great beatitude that Jesus speaks to Thomas and then include. That includes us. So packet. So divine mercy Sunday, that's what, that's when this takes place, the eight days later, after Easter Sunday. So divine mercy Sunday and Jesus, the very first words that he says to his apostles is, what the heck happened? Peace be with you. Shalom. Right. This. We have this restored relationship. Thomas is there.

[Mary McGhehan]

And were they in the upper room, the other disciples?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

When Jesus appeared, it just says, again in the house. So we don't know which house they're in. Yeah. The other passages say upper room. So they're in a house. Jesus stands among them behind locked doors, and he's like, thomas, I've heard this story. I know that you're disbelieving. Please don't be disbelieving anymore. You requested that you put your hand in my side and your finger is in my wounds. Please do that. Commands him to do it. Even grabs his hand in some kind like Caravaggio's piece of art. You kind of see Jesus forcibly do it, don't believe. So Jesus has a great interest in Thomas, being a believer of not having doubt anymore.

[Mary McGhehan]

Well, it's also interesting that in God's providence, he allowed Thomas to not be there in that room. Almost as if he knew how to get to Thomas's mind and heart in which way he would actually believe.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

No, and that's a great insight because St. Gregory the Great mentions that in his homily. He says, look, it was very providential that Thomas was not there, because this scene is now here for us in this great beatitude, his unbelief, his wounds of unbelief, St. Gregous says, leads to our wounds to be healed so that we can believe.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So it's really beautiful that Thomas, unbelief, actually leads to his faith, but also to our faith as well, that he becomes a primary witness to Jesus resurrection.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. On a small note, question. Do we know what the wounds actually look like when Jesus says, touch my wounds. Like, was it the glorified body? Caravaggio depicts actual hole that he could stick his finger into. Do we have any insight on what that was actually like for Thomas?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Well, no, we don't. We have. Many saints will speculate about it. Some saints have actually had mystical visions, but Thomas Aquinas will say, that is a good. In his Summa Theologica. So in his document, when he's writing a theology textbook, he thinks it's worth asking that question, though. Why did Jesus keep the wounds? Because he has a glorified body. He doesn't look beaten and bruised. Because if Jesus came out of the tomb looking beaten or three days after the tomb became beaten and bruised, like, he's just kind of dead, they just didn't really kill him. But no, he's got a full glorified body. He can walk through doors. But, yeah, he eats fish. Right. So he's tactile. But he also has this movement that he's able to do. And Thomas says one of the reasons, he gives five reasons why. But one of the reasons why Jesus kept his wounds was so that he could show them to us what he did for us. And he could show his Father how much he loves us. And he could show us how much he loves us. Like, we could see that I did this for you. And so to Thomas and to us, like, I did this for you. This is why I still have the wounds that you can see and touch.

[Mary McGhehan]

And in this circumstance, in fact, I want you to touch and be in my wounds as well. For your unbelief.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah. So this is beautiful. You know, Thomas's unbelief leads to this incredible declaration of belief. My Lord and my God. No one in the Gospels said that to Christ before he recognizes. So at the beginning of John's Gospel, we have Nathaniel say, oh, you're the King of Israel, you're the Son of God. And it's a you believing this journey towards full belief in who Jesus is. Now, at the end of John's Gospel, we have Thomas, my Lord and my God, recognizing who Jesus is for him, but also for the world. And there was this beautiful, beautiful beatitude, right? We're familiar with the eight beatitudes that Jesus says. And we have the Beatitudes in Matthew's Gospel and Luke's Gospel. Here's a Beatitude in John's Gospel. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. We haven't seen. And yet, through God's great gift of faith, we believe.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

So Jesus is proclaiming, you know, looking at Thomas's face, saying, but blessed are those who haven't seen but do believe. So he's talking about, he's thinking about us.

[Mary McGhehan]

A follow up question for that.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

What, what can we learn from St. Thomas on the proper disposition for, for doubt and where doubt plays in our faith life?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah. So doubt is a obstinate denial of a particular, you know, the faith or the truth of the faith. So I will not believe difficulties, though, are different than doubts. We have many difficulties. There's many people in the, you know, in their lives, in our own lives today that we are like, ah, that's a tough teaching, Lord. I'm not sure how that applies to my life. You're teaching on marriage, you're teaching on life within, you know, marriage and fertility within marriage. These things that often come up. How do I trust you? Those are called what we might call difficulties.

[Mary McGhehan]

Okay.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

A doubt is like, you know, I'm just giving the theological definition an obstinate. I will not believe. You can show me in Scripture, Jesus can appear. I'm still not going to believe it.

[Mary McGhehan]

Got it. So colloquially we use it in a different way.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

We colloquially use it. Yeah. So I'm just giving the theological definition. And St. John, Henry Newman has this beautiful phrase where it's quoted in the Catechism, 10,000 difficulties do not equal one doubt. We can have difficulties all day long about the faith we don't understand. But a doubt where I will not believe that no matter what, we don't want to be in that position. So we have a difficulty. Bring it to the Lord, just do what Thomas did. Ask him the question of, I don't know where you're going, I don't know the way. And then go to the person who can answer those difficulties that you have. And that's what Thomas does. And as a model for us in that great.

[Mary McGhehan]

Two other questions outside of Scripture, what is the Gospel of Thomas? I've heard that floating around. I'm assuming it's on the Apocrypha list.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. How do we. Do we use that book at all or what's inside of it?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

No, good question. Yeah. So the gospel Thomas, as you mentioned, would be what we call a apocryphal gospel. Means it's not actually part of the canon. The list, the approved list of gospels which are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. There's also every Easter and Christmas, some of this kind of surfaces. Like, what's the gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Judas. And so the early church was aware of these things. What is. It's writings. It's called apocryphal. It's writings usually by a group of Christians or a sect of what's called Gnostic. They had this secret knowledge that they claimed to have stories sometimes about early, the early life of Christ that would be the Gospel of Thomas. Stories like, did you ever wonder what Jesus did for the first 30 years of his life? We had that one scene of 12, when he was 12 years old. But what do. So some of these stories come up in there. Okay, so they're not historically reliable. They usually attach. They're not written by the actual person that they claim they're written by, but they attach a name to an apostle to try to give it gravitas, to give it authority. Like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is like, oh, and Thomas, here's one.

[Mary McGhehan]

Right. But is there any merit to them? Like, is there any good reason to really be looking at those as a source?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Okay, go to Scripture. No, yeah, just go to Scripture. Always read Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. I know people like to watch movies and shows about the life of Christ. That's wonderful if they help your faith. But better to know the words that are divinely inspired in the Gospels. That's a good question, though. St. Gregory the Great, I wanted to mention, this is a great quote. So I didn't slaughter it, but Gregory the Great on St. Thomas. The disbelief of Thomas has done more for our faith than the faith of the other disciples.

[Mary McGhehan]

Wow, that's beautiful.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Isn't that beautiful? The disbelief of Thomas has done more for our faith than the faith of the other apostles. As he touches Christ and is won over to belief, every doubt is cast aside. Our faith is strengthened. So the disciple who doubted, then felt Christ's wounds, became a witness to the reality of the resurrection. So the doubt and uncertainty led to certainty and to faith. So it's a great model for us. So.

[Mary McGhehan]

And then to be.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah, so we want to thank him in a sense for his doubting because it led to this great witness to us.

[Mary McGhehan]

And then also having been sent very widely was my final question after Jesus ascended into heaven, do we know. I believe there's tradition he Saint Thomas was sent to India. Do we know how he died? Are his relics still available to venerate?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah, no, great question. Yeah, all the above. Yes. So Thomas, like all the other apostles, except for James, because James is killed early, leave the boundaries of the Roman Empire. They took the words of Jesus seriously. Go to the ends of the Earth and make disciples. So Thomas goes to. The tradition is that he goes to Chaldea, Syria and Persia. Chaldea is like Babylon, so the Chaldean Catholic Church actually traces its origin to his founding.

[Mary McGhehan]

Is that the Syria Malabar?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Almost. So he goes to Chaldea, he goes to Syria, so up north to Persia, and then still wants to go further outside the boundaries of the Roman Empire, and he wants to go to India. So he lands on the western part of India and then southern part of India. And then two churches claim to have been founded by him, the Syro Mountain Malabar and the Syro Malakar. So I won't be able to distinguish. They both have beautiful, rich traditions. They're both. The Syro part comes from Syria, so they're not actually Syrians, but the Syrian. The Chaldean tradition is evangelized. And the Syro Malabar Church actually calls themselves Thomas Christians.

[Mary McGhehan]

Oh, interesting.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah. So that's actually a title they call themselves because. No, Thomas is the one who founded our church. He's martyred. The tradition is he's martyred in India. His bodies are moved around. His relics of his bodies are moved around at different points. They're brought to Abruzzi, Italy. So you can actually visit his tomb in Abruzzi, Italy. But if you like to visit his finger, this is where Catholic stuff gets weird. Saint Bridget of Sweden tore his finger off and put it and brought it to Rome. She's like, that's the finger that touched the side of Christ. I want it. So she brings it to Rome. So if you go to Santa Croce in Jerusalem, in Rome, next to all the relics, the title of the cross, the Lance of Longinus, it's there.

[Mary McGhehan]

That is pretty cool. The figure that.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

It's definitely strange, though. But yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes. And you said he was martyred. Do we know the specifics of his death?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

No.

[Mary McGhehan]

Very good. Anything else you'd like to share about St. Thomas?

[Dr. Ben Akers]

No. Yeah. Thank you. No, I think Thomas is a wonderful model for us of someone who encourages you. If you have difficulties, if you're having doubts like Thomas did, it's okay. Thomas knew Jesus. Thomas spent three years with Jesus. He wanted to be with Jesus. We see these wonderful. Lord, where are you going? I'm going to go. Like, he's going to die. Okay, let's go with him. Like, this is a man who wants to be with our Lord. And Jesus loves that. And Jesus loves that in Thomas. Jesus loves that in us. And when Thomas wasn't there with the other apostles, when our Lord showed up, Jesus still respond, you know, allowed that unbelief to serve as a wonderful model for us, to give example to us of the Lord wants you to not be unbelieving anymore, but to no longer unbelieve, but to believe. And so if you have those difficulties, if you have those doubts, go to our Lord, ask Him those hard questions, and let him answer you.

[Mary McGhehan]

Yes, ask those honest questions before our Lord. That's beautiful. Thank you.

[Dr. Ben Akers]

Yeah.

[Mary McGhehan]

Well, St. Thomas the Apostle pray for us. Thanks for joining. You can watch these interviews in video format by visiting form.org formed is an online Catholic streaming service created by the Augustan Institute and Ignatius Press with award winning studies and parish programs, inspiring audio content, movies, ebooks, and family friendly kids programming to support the mission of the Augustine institute. Please visit missioncircle.org.