Beef-on-Dairy, Free Martin, Spring Pond Death

Summary

Cattle Chat Podcast Summary

Episode: Beef-on-Dairy, Free Martin, Spring Pond Death
Host(s): BCI Cattle Chat Team (Brad, Bob, Scott, Dustin, Phillip)
Date: July 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Cattle Chat brings together veterinary professionals from the Beef Cattle Institute at Kansas State University to discuss key listener questions and timely topics in beef production. The main themes include the long-term impacts of pre-weaned calf nutrition (with a focus on bottle calves and calf ranches), the biology and management implications of free martins in cattle, and sudden cattle deaths near ponds, exploring whether blue-green algae, lightning, or other factors could be responsible.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pre-Weaned Calf Nutrition & Long-Term Health

(04:32-13:18)

• Knowledge Gaps in Research:
  • Most research focuses on the “hutch phase” (up to ~80–90 days in dairy calves). There’s little data following calves post-hutch to see long-term impacts.
    • “Most of the university research around nutrition on these calves looks at what we call the hutch phase... There’s been a lot of research done on how to formulate starter rations for these calves to get them off of milk at young ages… But we have very little research that follows them on past that stage.” — Phillip (04:40)
• Colostrum & Health:
  • Colostrum intake is pivotal for health outcomes. Calves that encounter health problems pre-weaning often continue to be disadvantaged.
    • “The ideal situation is a calf basically doesn’t have any bad days... colostrum intake can be associated with health.” — Bob (05:56)
• Butyrate & Rumen Development:
  • Butyrate, produced by rumen microbes digesting carbohydrates, is critical for the development of the rumen wall. Producers can promote butyrate via feed composition (adding digestible starches, fibers, or direct butyrate supplementation).
    • “Butyrate is the primary energy source for the rumen epithelium… so having a good production of butyrate in the rumen is critical for development.” — Phillip (06:40)
    • “One of the ways we do that is we provide much more highly digestible carbohydrates in that starter feed than what beef calves do with grass.” — Phillip (09:09)
• Starch in Starter Diets:
  • A moderate amount of starch (25–30% of diet) is needed, higher than what growing beef calves would receive, because dairy calves transition to solid feed faster.
    • “We want some starch. From what I’ve seen... talking 25 to 30% starch in that starter diet… quite a bit higher than our native beef calves.” — Phillip (08:21)
• Sulfur Tolerance in Young Calves:
  • There’s little published data on sulfur tolerance specific to very young calves. The generally accepted dietary range is about 0.35–0.45%, accounting for both feed and water contributions—especially important in areas with high-sulfur water or feed by-products like distillers grains.
    • “I don’t have a good answer because as far from I know is that most of the stuff that’s been done and published is with older feedlot cattle or even mature animals.” — Phillip (10:59)
    • “An important consideration is total diet is including water contributions… certain areas of the country are going to have a lot more sulfur in their ground water sources.” — Scott (11:45)

Notable Moment:

• Debunking the notion that a high-starch starter ration is automatically bad, given the accelerated rumen development in dairy calves.
  • “We’re giving them seven weeks to make that switch.” — Phillip (09:09)

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2. Free Martinism in Cattle & Sexed Semen Technology

(13:50–18:05)

• Definition & Cause:
  • A free martin is a sterile heifer born as a twin to a bull calf, due to hormone transfer between fetuses early in gestation.
    • “A free Martin is a female calf born twin to a bull calf... hormones from the bull calf cross the placenta and affect the female tract so it doesn’t develop normally.” — Bob (13:50)
• Incidence & Sexed Semen:
  • Occurs in >90% of male-female twins. Using sexed semen reduces but does not eliminate the risk.
    • “Very few things... are 100%. So when we sort semen into X female straws and Y male straws, we’re about 90% accurate… Out of a hundred pregnancies, 10 would be the opposite sex of what I selected.” — Bob (15:08)
• Diagnosis & Management:
  • External clues include an abnormally long distance between anus and vulva, and a shallower vaginal vault; definitive diagnosis may require reproductive tract scoring. Free martins are almost always infertile.
    • “Usually there’s some clues externally—the distance between the anus and the vulva... she just doesn’t look quite right.” — Bob (17:15)
    • “Almost zero [chance she’ll breed]... very, very few things in biology are 100% but this is close.” — Bob (17:06)

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3. Cattle Sudden Death Near Ponds: Blue-Green Algae, Lightning, or Other?

(18:08–23:31)

• Initial Steps & Differential Diagnosis:
  • Don’t presume the pond is to blame. Always involve a veterinarian and conduct a necropsy.
    • “First and foremost is probably get a veterinarian involved and do a post mortem exam.” — Scott (18:36)
• Blue-Green Algae (Cyanobacteria):
  • Toxic algae can look like a floating “scum” or spilled “green paint,” though colors can vary. Confirm via microscopic examination of a water sample; a visible green ring at the top of a standing sample is a quick field clue.
    • “The best description I could give is it looks like paint—that somebody just dumped green paint on the top of the surface.” — Scott (19:06)
    • “A pretty quick rudimentary test is if you take that sample... and you just set it on a flat surface for about a half an hour, most of those algae are buoyant… you’ll get this green ring at the very top.” — Scott (21:16)
• Lightning Strike:
  • Sudden death near a pond, especially after thunderstorms, could also be lightning. Necropsies may reveal little unless there are burns; often a diagnosis by exclusion based on recent weather and proximity to ponds or trees.
    • “Once in a while you'll see some lesions or something associated with, you know, a direct strike by lightning. But usually what happened is the lightning struck nearby and electrocuted the animal... so it's a little bit of a diagnosis by ruling everything else out.” — Bob (20:07)
• Precautions and Next Steps:
  • Blue-green algae can harm humans—use gloves, avoid inhalation, and submit labeled samples for analysis. If a toxic bloom is confirmed, keep cattle (and people) away until bloom subsides and, ideally, for about a week after the scum disappears.
    • “Some of those can be irritating dermally and some… can actually aerosolize and cause some shortness of breath, that kind of thing.” — Scott (21:16)
    • “Typical recommendations are prevent access until the bloom’s gone and maybe give it a week afterwards for a rough estimate.” — Scott (22:14)

Notable Moment:

• “The only consistent thing about [by-products] is they’re inconsistent.” — Scott (re: sulfur content in distillers grains) (12:32)

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Memorable Quotes

• On research gaps in calf nutrition:

  • “Most of the university research around nutrition on these calves looks at what we call the hutch phase… But we have very little research that follows them on [from there].” — Phillip (04:40)

• On butyrate's importance:

  • “Butyrate is the primary energy source for the rumen epithelium... critical for development of rumen papillae and the absorptive ability and functioning of that rumen.” — Phillip (06:40)

• On free martins and twin pregnancies:

  • “A free Martin is a female calf born twin to a bull calf... some hormones from the bull that cross the placenta and affect the female tract so it doesn’t develop normally.” — Bob (13:50)

• On blue-green algae diagnosis:

  • “The best description I could give is it looks like paint—that somebody just dumped green paint on the top of the surface.” — Scott (19:06)

• On uncertainty in by-product feeds:

  • “The only consistent thing about them is they're inconsistent.” — Scott (12:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:32 — Start of discussion on pre-weaned calf nutrition
• 06:40 — Butyrate and rumen development
• 08:21 — Starch in starter diets for calves
• 10:59 — Sulfur tolerance in young calves
• 13:50 — Free martinism explained
• 15:08 — Sexed semen accuracy and free martin risk
• 17:15 — Diagnosing a free martin
• 18:08 — Sudden cattle deaths and ponds: initial considerations
• 19:06 — What toxic blue-green algae looks like
• 20:07 — Lightning as a cause of sudden death
• 21:16 — Field test for blue-green algae & handling precautions
• 22:14 — Recommendations for managing toxic pond blooms

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Closing Thoughts

This episode underscores the importance of continued research and vigilance in calf nutrition, the nuances of reproductive technology and congenital issues, and a practical, veterinarian-driven approach to diagnosing sudden deaths in herds—especially during challenging spring and summer months. Listener questions keep the show relevant and practical, providing real-world scenarios for expert analysis.

For more information, feedback, or questions, listeners are encouraged to contact the BCI Cattle Chat team at bciksu@edu.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign cattle chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us and happy to have our crew here in the studio. Morning Scott. Morning Brad. Dustin Good morning, Phillip.

[B]

Hello guys.

[C]

Bob hello everybody.

[A]

So we're happy to have you guys here because we've got several good topics to discuss today. In fact, we've got a listener question that's on pre weaned calf nutrition but focused on those calves that we're supplementing milk for. So both bottle calves or calf ranches and how does that impact them later in life. We're also going to talk about an interesting case and want to pick your brain on this one. Bob is we had a sexed semen that resulted in a free Martin. So we'll have you define and describe that as we go forward. And then we're going to ask Scott about ponds and what's going on in ponds that might be detrimental to cattle health. Before we get into those topics, I want to remind you if you have a listener question for us, you can always send us an email at bcisu edu or reach out to us media. We do enjoy having those listener questions and appreciate some of the feedback that we've got from some of the topics in the past. And if you just have a topic you'd like us to talk about, you don't have to have a specific question. You can send that to us. Before we get into our full topics, I wanted to ask you guys, I have never been, I've heard a lot about it, a lot of good things. I have never been to the zoo in Omaha which made me think, I wonder what areas if we look at the drivable distance and I'm going to give you an eight hour ring here around Manhattan. What is something that you have kind of wanted to do but you haven't been to see? That's within that eight hour ring. What's your, what's your next tour spot or fun stop you want to go to within eight hours of Manhattan? Dustin's got one right away. The largest hand dug well.

[C]

Ooh, I've been there it is See.

[A]

Bob's, Bob's been there.

[C]

You gotta Greensburg, Greensburg, Kansas. It's, it's a big well.

[A]

So Bob, Bob said it's pretty impressive to go look at and it is something to see.

[B]

Philip Oklahoma City Thunder game so I'd look to try and take the boys to professional basketball game and that's the one that's closest to Manhattan.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And this probably would have been a pretty good year since they just Won the NBA championship the other day, so.

[A]

Maybe harder to get tickets.

[B]

Thanks. Yeah, maybe, yes, but yeah, harder.

[C]

Just more expensive.

[D]

I tried to go and Luka Doncic played in Dallas and then he got traded and then the Lakers weren't coming to Oklahoma City, so I didn't ever go.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Where do you want to go, Scott?

[D]

We spend a lot of time going either north or west, and so I'd like to go east sometime, but I don't know what's even out there if it's worth going. So maybe somebody give me a better idea to go east or south.

[A]

Go to St. Louis.

[E]

You can go see the arch.

[A]

Have you been to the Harvard?

[D]

Yeah. My wife and I both did track in college and we always had nationals and we stayed right underneath the arch. So we've both been to the top of there a couple times.

[B]

But your kids have it.

[D]

Kids have it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Bob.

[C]

All right, so I'm, I think this would be within eight hours. So car hinge up in Nebraska. So I, that seems like the kind of quirky thing that I enjoy seeing. And so is that kind of like.

[B]

Cadillac Ranch in the Texas Panhandle?

[C]

I don't know. No, it's, it's, you know, Stonehenge.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

A guy in his pasture in Nebraska used cars and set them up on end to replicate Stonehenge. But with cars.

[B]

Well, that's what, that's what's in Texas Panhandle. There's a set of somebody, somebody they've got. They call it Cadillac Ranch. But somebody took and they put them. Yeah. Up on end.

[C]

Pretty impressive use of time.

[D]

I was at car hinge three weeks ago.

[A]

Oh, were you?

[D]

You would have to drive fast to make it an eight.

[C]

Okay. I like it.

[D]

You could do it.

[C]

There's not a lot of traffic between here state.

[D]

You can make it.

[A]

See? Lots of good road trip ideas for this summer.

[C]

Now you're full, full ideas.

[A]

Now I've got new places to go.

[D]

You got to go. I want to go to the Red river and try to noodle a flathead catfish. I think that'd be the way to do it.

[A]

There you go. That's a better idea than they are too. You could take your kids noodling. No. Excellent. That sounds fun. Philip, we got a really good question and I'm, I'm going to kind of summarize in, in broad strokes, the, the question was about calf nutrition and really thinking about some of the impacts both on the development of that calf and the long term health implications. And I know early on and there are several questions that will kind of break out here, but the first one that I think is relevant is how do our nutritional decisions with those young calves affect them later in life?

[B]

Yeah, and that's a really good question. This listener had lots of components to this question that we can go through some of them, but from a big broad picture, we don't know a whole lot. So we think about dairy calves or these dairy on beef calves that are, that don't nurse their dam, they are fed colostrum from a bottle and then they're fed milk replacer or whatever on a bottle their whole life. And most of the university research around nutrition on these calves looks at what we call the hutch phase. So up to probably about 80 or 90 days of age when they're moved out of individual hutches into group pension, most the research stops at that point. There's been a lot of research done on how to formulate starter rations for these calves to get them off of milk at, at young ages and get that rumen developed so that they can handle solid feed. But we have very little research that follows them on past that stage of the production system to know how that impacts them later on in life.

[A]

And Bob, there has been some research done in beef calves that are younger, not really nutrition, but health wise, if they have health problems pre weaning that impacts them throughout life. And colostrum intake can be associated with health.

[C]

Exactly. One of the things that I think we do understand is the ideal situation is a calf basically doesn't have any bad days. And so that's both infectious disease things that they may be exposed to, so biosecurity, good sanitation. But the diet, nutrition is, is a really critical component. And you know, again, most of my experience has been with beef calves of which the diet is, is actually pretty darn simple. It's mom's milk. And then he gradually starts to consume, you know, growing forage. And you know, the diet is really taken care of for us beef producers until they're six months of age or so.

[A]

Another part of his question, Philip, was related to butyrate. Kind of fill us in on what he was asking about that.

[B]

Yeah, so butyrate is one of those volatile fatty acids that are produced by the microbes in the rumen when they break down carbohydrates. And butyrate is the primary energy source for the rumen epithelium or the rumen wall, those cells there. And so having a good production of butyrate in the rumen is critical for development of rumen papillae and the absorptive ability and functioning of that rumen. And so a couple of ways that we do that, or we can do that is one, highly digestible carbohydrates in.

[C]

That starter feed for these gas.

[B]

So that starch, but probably not too much starch. And then highly digestible fiber sources like soy holes and distillers grains and wheat meds and things like that. And then the other way is we can add butyrate directly to the, the starter feed or, and even the milk replacer. Now, obviously the milk replacer bypasses the rumen for the most part, but it, but it's also critical for development of the hindgut epithelium as well. And so it's very useful for intestinal function and development. So we can, we can add that and we can or increase that in a couple of different ways to help stimulate the development of that GI tract in those cats.

[A]

So the butyrate you could add to the diet. But what was interesting in what you said was I typically think of, I'm worried about acidosis and having a high starch diet doesn't seem to go along with rumen development. But you're telling me a high starch diet is good for rumen development.

[B]

High starch is relative, so we want some starch. So I think from what I've seen in the literature and probably relative to some of the starter diets I've seen in industry, we're talking starch, we're talking, you know, 25 to 30% starch, not 25 to 30% grain, 25 to 30% starch in that starter diet. And so that's not necessarily high that, you know, you do the math and say corn grain is about two thirds starch. That means you're only about 40% of.

[C]

That diet is corn or 40, 45% or something like that.

[B]

So that's not high starch, higher than.

[A]

I would have expected. Because when we contrast that with beef cattle growing beef cattle, their diet is primarily forage and melt. Yeah, it would seem that that's way higher in starch.

[B]

Yes, it, it is, it is quite a bit higher than our native beef calves. But like Bob said, those native beef calves are taking seven months for that rumor microbial population to develop where they can switch from milk to solid feed. These dairy type calves are, we're giving them seven weeks to make that switch. So that rumen population has to develop over about seven weeks or they can handle solid feed. And so one of the Ways we do that is we provide much more highly digestible carbohydrates in that starter feed than what beef calves do with, with.

[C]

Grass, which kind of makes sense in that milk is a pretty highly digestible carbohydrate source. And so, yeah, we're not, we're trying to get them off milk, but we're putting them on a carbohydrate source that, that is more like milk as far as the, the, the energy density.

[B]

Well, and if you think about some of the studies, the research has been done with early weaned beef calves, they switch those calves over when they wean them at say, 90 to 100 days of age. They put them on pretty high concentrate diets. I've seen some research where if you put those calves just out on pasture and let them just try to graze, they don't do well because that rumen is not developed, it's not ready, it's not ready to handle those complex carbohydrates in a forage. You need something that's more simple carbohydrates, that's more easily digestible. And so you need things like corn and grains and soybean hulls and some of those byproducts that are more easily digestible by those microbes.

[A]

Another part of this question was relative to sulfur. And what were they asking there relative to sulfur?

[B]

And I'll let Scott jump in here on this one. Some, but they were asking sulfur tolerance on those calves at a young age. So if we wean those calves at two months and then we're going to grow them from two months to say, six months to when a normal beef calf would go into a feed yard, so to speak, then we had to do something with them there. So how much sulfur can they tolerate during that age range? And I don't have a good answer because as far from I know is that most of the stuff that's been done and, and published is with older feedlot cattle or even mature animals. And so there's, there's a lack of information if those calves can handle the same amount or more or what.

[D]

Yeah, and I think it's probably going to be similar. You know, my gut says it's probably similar into that, you know, early weaned calf, you know, placement into a feed yard range. And some of those numbers are available depending on the ration type that they're on. So I think you'll see NRC has got some numbers like 0.35 to 0.45% of the total diet. I Think an important consideration of that is the total diet is including water contributions. And so certain areas of the country are going to have a lot more sulfur in their groundwater sources. And so the, the diets are going to have to be different, you know, depending where you're at. So it's important information to know at least.

[C]

And, and the sulfur in these dairy cats that's coming mostly from the distillers grains or corn gluten feed or where is the sulfur that they may be asking about here coming from? Is that common feed ingredients in, in these starter diets?

[D]

Yeah. So the part of those, the ethanol production process, they'll add sulfuric acid to some of those fermentation chambers to adjust ph and so sometimes you'll get some sulfur that comes out into those co product type feed ingredients. And I think an important note that can be inconsistent. Right. So the only consistent thing about them is they're inconsistent. And so it might be a, you know, something to consider looking at a measuring each batch kind of thing. But that's at least where I would anticipate the, the main sulfur contribution to come from.

[A]

But the water could be an important part. If you've got milk replacer and you're mixing it up and giving it to the calves every day and if you've.

[C]

Got sulfur, well then you've got a high.

[A]

Yeah, it could be potentially a part of it.

[D]

But the water intake is going to change too. I mean you take water intake today is way different than it's going to be in November and so that you those it's going to wax and wane.

[A]

With ambient temperature, even goes up and down. But with those bottle calves we know they're getting at least a minimum amount if you're mixing it from there. So great questions, we appreciate you sending those and I know we didn't get to answer everything in there, but I thought that we hit the high points and appreciate you sending that question. Next question that we got from a listener and Bob, I'll set this up for you. They used sexed semen but they ended up with a free Martin. So I'd like you to kind of describe to us first what is a free martin?

[C]

Yeah, so free Martin is a female calf born twin to a bull calf. And just the way that placenta works in cattle, this is different than in humans, different even than in small ruminants like sheep and goats. But some of the anti mullerian hormones, so there's some hormones from the, from the beef calf, the, the bull calf that crosses the placenta and affects the female track so that her track doesn't develop normally. So it's kind of halfway between a male and a female reproductive tract. So that's what we call a free martin. And they're sterile. They can't, they can't get.

[A]

Does that happen every time you have a male and female?

[C]

Almost every time. It's actually quite rare that it doesn't. It would have to be just the timing that you get some blood transfer would make it not happen. So I don't know what the percentage would be, but probably more than 90% of the time I would expect to get a free certain heifer. If it's a heifer co twin with a bull. Okay. So almost all the time. Now this is an interesting situation because they, they used sex semen and they expected only heifers. And this calf was born as a singleton. So there's a couple of possibilities. One is the most probable is there was a bull calf in there. There was, this was a twin pregnancy and then the cow resorbed the, the bull calf somewhere during pregnancy. And. But after the time when it had caused the, the female to become a free martin. And in a sexed semen situation, that can happen in that. In biology, very few things I would say none are 100%. So when we sort semen into X female straws and Y male straws, we're about 90% accurate, give or take some. Sometimes it's a little bit better, sometimes it's a little bit worse. So out of if I bred a hundred heifers to sexed semen or if I got a hundred pregnancies, 10 of those would be the opposite sex of what I selected. And so it is very possible to have an opposite sex in a sex sorted semen situation. Now the other possibility that could be going on here, because obviously this could happen, you could have twins. One of them is a male. Even though the semen was sex sorted and that male was resorbed before birth. Those are all relatively unlikely things. So it could be a stack of unlikely things. The other thing is there's other birth defects that can affect the reproductive tract. There's hermaphrodites and pseudo hermaphrodites. And visually as the calf comes out, I'm not sure that I would tell the difference. So this may have truly been a free martin or it may have been one of these pseudo hermaphrodites, that which.

[A]

Functionally is the same.

[C]

Functionally, yeah, yeah. And you just put them in the same category. So there may never have been a bull calf in there and this is another birth defect. So any of those are possible. So I think the real take home is no, our sex sorting process isn't 100% and these intersex birth defects aren't common but they happen and we see.

[A]

Them and, and so there's nothing really that you would do different next time to avoid that?

[F]

No, they're really.

[C]

No, there's nothing to do differently.

[A]

And for the free Martin, is there anything I can do? Management wife. I really want to keep her. Is there any chance that she'll breed?

[C]

Almost zero. Again, there's very, very few things in biology that are 100% but this is close. It's almost, almost.

[A]

How do I know if she's a free market?

[C]

Okay. Usually there's some clues externally the distance between the anus and the vulva is either and usually longer than typical. And so she just doesn't look quite right a lot of times.

[A]

And longer enough to be easily noticeable.

[C]

Yeah, this doesn't look right. Yeah, this doesn't look right. And that would be a good clue. The, the depth of the vaginal vault is different. It's shorter and those, those. So a veterinarian would be able to look at it and say this is a free Martin or something similar and the fertility is going to be very low.

[A]

And as they get older this would be something that. This would be a good reason to have them track scored or checked because you can identify some at that stage they don't look abnormal and some of.

[C]

Them don't look very abnormal. You'd have to really look closely but you will detect it on a, on a reproductive track score.

[A]

Yep, excellent. Thanks for sharing that, Bob.

[E]

We also wanted to address. We had a question relative to, to a bull that died and he died by a pond, apparently healthy looking. And the question was, is this from H. Scum? Is it from something else that's going on? Was it from lightning? Scott, I'm going to turn you here first.

[G]

So I think first and foremost when you read that you died next to a pond, I don't, I don't think you can automatically assume the pond's involved.

[A]

Anytime a pond is there, he had to slay somebody.

[G]

There's a pond in every pasture. Not every, but they need water. So I think first and foremost is probably get a veterinarian bald and do a post mortem exam. They could do a necropsy, open that animal up and you can sometimes you recognize things that you weren't expecting to see in the case. So Specifically I think the question's kind of going towards a blue green algae realm. So the toxic blue green algae are actually bacteria and so you can't see individual organisms with the naked eye.

[E]

Who named blue green owl?

[G]

I don't know, direct cyanobacteria is the scientific name. But there's, you know, there's green algae that grows, you know, aquatic plants that grows on the bottom. There's a plant called duckweed that puts these little tiny green leaves and it will completely cover fong. Usually you can pick those up and you can see the individual leaves and they'll have, oftentimes they'll have roots growing out of them. So you can identify them that way. The classic, the toxic blue green algae that we see does form a scum on the surface. And the best description I could give is it looks like paint that somebody just dumped green paint on the top of the surface. It doesn't necessarily have to be green. You know, I've seen it be green, blue, orange, red, multiple different colors. And the, really the only for sure way to figure that out is to send a sample in and have it looked at on microscope because they're microscopic cells and you could see them on microscope now.

[C]

Well, the other thing that I do think is possible with a death found.

[F]

Nester upon is lightning strike. What do you think that first off.

[G]

How do you, what does it look like?

[A]

What would.

[C]

Yeah, so usually when a veterinarian is.

[F]

Asked to determine if this was lightning.

[C]

Strike, what we do is a necropsy.

[F]

And we don't find any other cause of death and the history fits such as standing next to a pond or standing under a tree or standing next to a fence and there was lightning strikes in the area at about the time of death. That's the closest we can get is we don't find another cause of death. And the history fits. Once in a while you'll see some lesions or something associated with, you know, a direct strike by lightning. But usually what happened is the lightning struck nearby and electrocuted the animal. And then you're not really going to see, you know, signs of burning or anything like that. And so it's a little bit of a diagnosis by ruling everything else out.

[C]

Now the other problem is we're at the time of year where the thunder rumbles once in a while and goes.

[F]

Through and, and we don't check cows every day. And so it could be several days.

[C]

And I don't really know when the.

[F]

Death occurred within a day or two.

[C]

And so then really saying for Certain.

[F]

That it's a lightning strike can be difficult.

[E]

So, Scott, anything on the. If you had this situation you had on, said you might take a sample to send them to the lab. But we as people are also susceptible to the blue green algae. Are there any precautions I need to.

[A]

Take when we get that sample?

[G]

Yeah, some of those can be irritating dermally and some of them can actually aerosolize and cause some shortness of breast, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, on sampling recommendation, just a regular water bottle, preferably a clean one labeled with wherever it came from. Take your sample from an inch or two below the surface and make sure you get some of that scum in there. And kind of a pretty quick rudimentary test is if you take that sample and you just set it on a flat surface for about a half an hour, most of those algae are buoyant. And so you'll get this green ring at the very top. And the rest of the water will be clear, maybe a little bit turbid, but most of that will float. And it's pretty good indication, has actually been fairly reliable even in our lab. If I walk in the lab and I see there's a bottle with a green ring around the top of it, then I'm pretty confident that's what it is. And you know, I don't have numbers for it, but anecdotally that works pretty well.

[A]

And if that's the case, what do.

[E]

You do with that pond? Is it going to get better on its own? Do I have to treat the ponds? Do I have to move the cattle out of there? Can I, can I leave the cattle in that area?

[G]

That might take a while to get through the whole thing, but ideally they don't have access to it. The bloom will go away. So I think maybe a common misconception is these algae are normal inhabitants of most water systems. It's just you'll get. Oftentimes it happens after rain like we had last night. You get an inch rain that washes a bunch of nutrients and oxygen in the water, and those algae will just proliferate exceptionally fast and have a bloom. And that bloom will then die off. And it's. That die off is where it's the worst. If when the, those cells die, they break open and they release the toxin, that'll dissipate over time too. So typical recommendations are prevent access for until the bloom's gone and maybe give it a week afterwards for a rough estimate. Um, you could also continually test that too.

[E]

And in this case, back to your original point, it's hard to tell sudden death is uncommon, but it is something that we want to take a close look at to be sure that it's not the first of several that may be occurring. So get your veterinarian involved through the necroft CEU talks about Bob and the lightning. We may look at the lightning strikes that have been in the area and in in both of these cases you may not see a lot at Necropsy. So you're still going to have to.

[A]

Investigate past the post mortem of that. An we appreciate you sharing these questions with us and you guys sharing your opinions today. If you have other questions or comments.

[E]

You can send us email at Bciksu Eduardo.