Dr. Dustin Pendell’s Trip to Taiwan, Fog Fever in Wyoming Cattle, Welfare Practices in Australia

Summary

Cattle Chat – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Dr. Dustin Pendell’s Trip to Taiwan, Fog Fever in Wyoming Cattle, Welfare Practices in Australia
Date: January 9, 2026
Host and Contributors: Brad White (Host), Dr. Dustin Pendell, Dr. Todd, Dr. Philip, Dr. Bob, Dr. Eduardo Bortoluzzi, Cameron Best

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Overview

This episode of BCI Cattle Chat takes listeners around the globe, exploring critical issues in the beef industry. The main topics include an in-depth discussion on "fog fever" (respiratory disease) in Wyoming cattle, insights from Dr. Dustin Pendell’s recent agricultural trip to Taiwan, and a conversation with Australian guest Cameron Best about animal welfare and production differences between the U.S. and Australia. Throughout, the BCI team shares practical knowledge, global perspectives, and lively anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Question: "Fog Fever" (Respiratory Disease) in Wyoming Cattle

[02:51–10:12]

• Case Introduction:

  • Dr. Todd interviews Dr. Glenn Gamble from Wyoming, who describes recurring, sudden deaths in cattle along a boggy, two-mile stretch called Mill Creek.
  • Dr. Gamble suspects "fog fever" (3-methylindole poisoning) linked to cattle grazing on lush pastures after dry ones.
    • "You just find them dead. They’ll be 15 at a time." (Dr. Gamble, [03:36])

• Underlying Biology & Plant Concerns:

  • Fog fever starts with L-tryptophan, which plants synthesize. In lush, rapidly growing pastures, certain plants (e.g., perilla mint, alfalfa, brassicas) can have higher L-tryptophan levels.
  • Cattle’s rumen bacteria, especially when transitioning from dry to lush forages, convert L-tryptophan to the toxic 3-methylindole.
    • "All plants, if they’re at a lush stage of growth, can do this. Brassicas are known to do this. All kinds of grasses, Bermuda grass, buffel grass, legumes, alfalfa…" (Dr. Todd, [06:40])

• Management vs. Eradication:

  • It’s not usually one single culprit plant; many can cause the problem.
  • Eradicating and replanting pastures is impractical due to the specialized nature of boggy area plants and inevitable natural regrowth.
  • Best management focuses on slow transitions from dry to lush forage, feeding hay before pasture turn-out, or using ionophores (rumensin, bovatec) to inhibit conversion in the rumen.
    • "I think your best bet is trying to manage it either with transitioning cattle over to lush forages more slowly...Ionophores...have been shown to slow the conversion." (Dr. Todd, [09:17])
    • "I'm pretty sure after a few years the native plant's going to come back in because they're going to be able to out-compete whatever you put in there." (Dr. Philip, [09:53])

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2. Dr. Dustin Pendell’s Agricultural Visit to Taiwan

[10:53–16:33]

• Culinary Anecdotes:

  • Dr. Pendell shares unique eating experiences in Taiwan, highlighting beef tartar and wagyu, with playful banter about raw egg and sea urchin.
    • "I had enough glasses of wine and other drinks that it was OK." (Dr. Dustin Pendell, [11:25])

• Livestock & Meat Consumption in Taiwan:

  • Taiwan produces less than 200,000 head of beef cattle, only about 5% of its demand—95% of beef is imported.
  • ~50% of imports are from the U.S., with others from Australia and South America.
    • "They've got less than 200,000 head of cattle... they can produce about 5% of what they consume, so that means 95% basically is all imports." (Dr. Pendell, [11:56])
    • "About 50% of their imports come from the U.S." (Dr. Pendell, [13:16])

• Dietary & Educational Observations:

  • Poultry is the primary protein (45 kg annual per capita), followed by pork (35 kg), with beef just 8–9 kg.
  • During his visit to a university, Dr. Pendell noted the growth in small animal veterinary medicine over livestock focus—urbanization and population density likely limit livestock production.
  • Veterinary clinics in Taipei are predominantly for small animals.

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3. Australian Cattle Welfare Practices: Guest Cameron Best & Dr. Eduardo Bortoluzzi

[17:14–21:54]

• Systems Comparison: U.S., Australia, Brazil:

  • Dr. Eduardo contrasts U.S. focus on "biological function" (confinement, close observation, low predation) with Australia and Brazil's "natural living" on pasture, facing health and predation challenges.

• Mortality and Predation in Northern Australia:

  • Northern herds: 1–2% annual losses in dry stock, 3–5% in breeders—can be higher with predation or environment stress.
  • Dingo predation persists despite decades of control attempts—usually a threat to weak calves.
    • "Dingo baiting's been going on for 100 years and they're still there." (Cameron Best, [18:29])

• Management Practices:

  • Frequent human presence via water checks—cattle may see people every 3–4 days.
  • Only 2–3 major handling events per year; management is about timing and logistics.
  • Gathering relies on a multi-modal approach: helicopters to move cattle, motorbikes to pick up, horses to shepherd, with improved infrastructure like fencing and water aiding control.
    • "A lot of places now invested... in a lot more fences, a lot more waters. So they'll aggregate a mob... and just put them in a lane." (Cameron Best, [20:38])
  • Drone technology is emerging in less remote areas; further south, management becomes more similar to U.S. style (ATVs, motorbikes, horses).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fog Fever Management:
  • "I think your best bet is going to be trying to manage it either with transitioning cattle over to lush forages more slowly...I think that's probably going to be a better way to deal with this than...trying to completely transform a whole entire ecosystem…" (Dr. Todd, [09:17])
• On Taiwan’s Beef Import Reliance:
  • "They’ve got less than 200,000 head of cattle... can produce about 5% of what they consume, so that means 95% basically is all imports..." (Dr. Dustin Pendell, [11:56])
• On Extensive Australian Management:
  • "Helicopters will get the cattle moving... then you’ll have a group of stockmen on horses... So the actual shepherding's done by the horses when you get them in a big mob." (Cameron Best, [20:23])
  • “Dingo baiting’s been going on for 100 years and they’re still there. And I think there’s an answer there we haven’t yet discovered.” (Cameron Best, [18:29])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:51–10:12] Fog Fever in Wyoming Cattle – Listener Question & Clinical/Management Discussion
• [10:53–16:33] Dr. Dustin Pendell’s Taiwan Experience – Beef Systems, Veterinary Education, Food Anecdotes
• [17:14–21:54] Australian Welfare Practices – Cameron Best & Dr. Eduardo Bortoluzzi

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

True to BCI Cattle Chat’s practical and collegial style, the episode offers grounded advice, thoughtful international perspectives, and a sprinkling of personal stories. Whether discussing disease management in Wyoming, market dynamics in Taiwan, or the challenges and logistics of Australian cattle production, the show connects veterinary science to real-world producer concerns and highlights the global interconnectedness of the beef industry.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, welcome to BCI Cattle Chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us and happy to have our crew here in the studio. Morning, Dustin.

[B]

Good morning, Bob.

[C]

Good morning, guys.

[D]

Todd, Good morning.

[A]

And Philip.

[E]

Good morning, guys.

[A]

We got a full crew here today. It's great to have you guys because we have several good discussion topics. Todd was recently out at a meeting and he's got a question from a listener that we'll dive into relative to respiratory disease and some pasture cattle. Dustin just got back from Taiwan, so he's going to share with us some things he learned on his trip. And then we're going to catch up with Cameron from Australia. We also had Dr. Eduardo in. So we'll talk a little bit about some of the things that they're doing in Australia relative to welfare and have Eduardo ask him some questions. Before we get into those topics, I want to remind you, if you have a question or a topic for us, you can send us an [e-mail]. we really enjoy hearing those listener questions. Or if you just have feedback on a topic you want us to dive further into, you can also reach out to us on social media. Guys, it's. It's mid winter, so one of the things that I'm sure you've been watching a lot of NBA basketball, maybe not, but I wanted to go back to in the 80s and 90s, who was your favorite NBA basketball player? Because that was kind of the heyday. A lot of us watched it through that time period and. And you can only pick one. So who's your favorite player from that time period?

[E]

That's. That's way too easy. You got to do a different. Jordan is. I mean, that was everybody.

[D]

Jordan.

[F]

Really?

[D]

Oh, yeah. I despised him.

[A]

Jordan. Jordan's. Jordan's an easy one.

[C]

Larry Bird's up there.

[A]

Larry Bird's got to be up there.

[D]

I can't pick between John Stockton or Carl.

[A]

Yeah, I knew it was going to be the Utah Jazz.

[E]

Yeah, that's why you hate Jordan, because.

[A]

He beat you twice in his finals.

[B]

So which one.

[A]

You got to pick one. The Mailman or. Stockton didn't have a nickname, did he?

[D]

No, he was just feared by all.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

John Stockton.

[A]

Stockton.

[D]

That'd be John Stockton.

[B]

So growing up in Illinois, like Philip in the 90s, he's Jordan, right? He's. Yeah. And I do not like Utah Jazz.

[A]

See, I knew there'd be a conflict arise. Nobody picked Magic Johnson.

[G]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, there was some fun guys to watch back in those days and I did watch a Little bit more NBA back then than I do now. Maybe it's because of some of those personalities and style of play and stuff.

[A]

Yeah, it was fun, fun times. See, it wasn't just a no brainer. Everybody had different.

[B]

I agree with Phil. I thought it was a no brainer.

[C]

You guys are Illinois boys.

[A]

Well, Todd went to recently speak at the Wyoming VMA and was able to catch up with a practitioner afterward who had a good question. Let's listen to your question, Todd, and then we'll follow up.

[D]

All right. I'm here at the Wyoming Veterinary Medical association winter meeting in Casper, Wyoming and I've been having a great visit with Dr. Glenn Gamble about a question that he has regarding a certain type of respiratory disease that he sees in his clients that graze along a certain drainage. So Dr. Gamble, go ahead and tell us a little bit about what you're seeing.

[F]

Okay, so we got a crick called Mill Creek and along this area we have, there's about a two mile stretch, I'd say of kind of boggy type pasture coming down to the, to the creek. And these cattle that get put on that, if they've been on any kind of dry pasture, if they get put on that, they get L Tryptophan poisoning. And so with his, I guess two methyl indole poisoning in the.

[D]

Right. Fog.

[F]

Fever. Fever, Right. Okay. So. And I verified that with histopathology. And what my question is is how do you even identify which plants in an area like that are the ones taking up the ultryptophan or converting it to methyl indole. And you just find them dead. You just find these cattle dead. They'll be 15 at a time.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

And the other thing, what I was. So I came up with the bright idea years ago to try and find if you could destroy whatever plants that are uptaking it there and replant it with something else that doesn't tend to take up the L Tryptophan, if that was even possible. That was what I was kind of wondering. And I ran out by the owners of that. I said, you know, I wonder if I get into. Oh, that'd be great if you could find that out. But I've never, I've talked to pathologists, I've talked to a couple different toxicologists over the years and never really got much of that because there's no information on it.

[D]

Sure.

[F]

They know of.

[D]

Well, that's a great question. Let's. I'm going to take this back to the bci. We're going to talk about this with the group and see if we can come up with any bright ideas for you. Thanks for the question.

[A]

Yeah, that's an excellent question.

[F]

I know.

[A]

Todd, you were able to catch up with Scott Fritz, who's our toxicologist, and get kind of some background information on this question. And there was a couple things. And Philip, I know you've got some thoughts on this as well.

[D]

Yeah. So a couple of things about fog fever or three methylindol poisoning. Number one, it does start with L tryptophan. That is correct. Now, the plants don't necessarily take up L tryptophan. They convert nitrates that they absorb from the soil into L tryptophan. That is what is actually converted in the rumen to the three methylindol. But a couple of very important features to consider this particular scenario. Cattle really only are good at converting L tryptophan to 3 methylindol if they're coming from rough, dry forages to lush forages because the bacterial population in their rumen are optimized to do that. When they come from those hard, dry forages, if we adapt them, give them time to adapt their ruminal flora, they don't convert The L tryptophan to 3 methyl indole. It just gets converted to regular indole, which isn't as toxic. That being said, there are a few plants that do accumulate or do manufacture L tryptophan at higher rates. The most infamous of those would be perilla mint, which I doubt you're likely to see perilla mint in Riverton, Wyoming, where Dr. Gamble practices. It'd be interesting if you did. You can go on to the website uswildflowers.com and they've got some great pictures of perilla mint from Grundy County, Tennessee. And so you can, you can go to that website, you can look at the perilla mint and you can have some nostalgia back to the 90s again of the Grundy county auction and tap your toe a little bit. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, I just, I just don't know how to help you. But. So the perilla mint is definitely one that is known to accumulate the L tryptophan. But that being said, it's just not any one particular plant. All plants, if they're at a lush stage of growth, can do this. Brassicas are known to do this. All kinds of grasses, Bermuda grass, buffel grass, legumes, alfalfa, actually is very effective at converting L tryptophan into or converting nitrates into L Tryptophan. So any plant that's lush can, can cause this.

[A]

And a lot of times there are plants like Pearl Ament would be one that are typically not grazed at the frequency unless they're, unless the other plants are gone in the area. So there are some plants like that that may not be part of the normal grazing profile. And Philip, you had some thoughts on this as well?

[E]

Yeah, I don't know, I guess why the bacterial population in the rumen seems to convert it in certain situations, I would think, and I'm not exactly sure on this, but even dry forages should have L tryptophan. L tryptophan is an amino acid that plants synthesize because they need that amino acid for their own protein structures in the plant. And so L tryptophan should also be available in the, in dry forages. I don't know, the shift in microbes.

[C]

Yeah, it's just more, you know, you think about those lush growing forages, they tend to be higher in protein than a, than a dormant forage. And that was what I was taught anyway.

[E]

They are. And well, and it might be a rate to. Because in a high quality lush forage there's not much cell wall and so the protein is mostly soluble and it will be rapidly degraded in the rumen as opposed to in a dry hay, more dormant forage. A lot of the protein is going to be in the. Incorporated in the cell wall. It's not in the cell walls thicker, so it doesn't break down as fast.

[G]

It doesn't.

[E]

The protein's not released from the plant cell as quickly.

[A]

So back to his question though. What about getting rid of it? Right. How does he prevent this? What does he do different? Right. That's what he really wanted to know.

[D]

Yeah. And so you could look for certain plants that might be higher risk. Perilla mint would be very unlikely in that part of the world. Be really interesting if you did find it. But alfalfa is very common in that part of the world. So if there's a lot of alfalfa or some other legume that could potentially be a problem. But any grass, and so any grass can, can, can, can develop this and you can, you will see it on just about any grass. So I would say you're going to have better luck trying to manage this rather than trying to eradicate a certain plant and, and then replace it with something else which could just as easily cause this problem. I think your best bet is going to be trying to manage it either with transitioning cattle over to less forages, more slowly, maybe putting out a hay bale first before they go on to those less forages. Ionophores like rumensin or bovatec have been shown to slow the conversion of l tryptophan to 3 methyl indol. So those could be helpful. And that's probably going to be a better way to deal with this than. Rather than trying to completely transform a whole entire ecosystem along. Along these cricks.

[E]

Yeah, that's. He mentioned that it's in. It's in a low spot where it's kind of boggy and stuff like that. I'm pretty sure those are pretty specialized plants that can handle highly saturated soils and things like that. And so it would be very difficult to find another plant that would be able to out compete the native. You could, you could take out what's there, plant something else. But I'm pretty sure after a few years the native plant's going to come back in because they're going to be able to out compete whatever you're able to put in there.

[A]

And some of those plants you mentioned, like the alfalfa or the lush grass, is good nutritional value. It's the trade off there of making sure that. And if there's a specific area, maybe modifying the grazing time, which is easier said than done because you got to get cattle into pastures at certain times, move back and forth. So. Great comments. Appreciate you getting that question, Todd. And hopefully, Dr. Gamble, that helps. Next we're going to shift. And Dustin, you just got back from Taiwan, and one of the things I really like about you is you're an adventurous eater. So before we get into the meat of your trip, man, or maybe the meat of your trip, what's the most unusual thing you ate while you were traveling?

[B]

Well, I did eat some wagyu. I mean, I had a lot. Honestly, I had a lot of beef, which they don't eat a lot. I mean, they eat beef, but it's not.

[A]

They brought you in just to increase beef consumption pretty much.

[B]

And I think I did. You know, I had some tongue. Not a big deal. It's. They call it tartar, like steak tartar, where it's just steak ground up basically, kind of raw. I mean, they got some. Some kind of spices or something in it. That was it.

[C]

You didn't, you didn't say it was great.

[A]

It was fine.

[B]

I mean, I had enough glasses of wine and other drinks that it was okay. But like, they had something I didn't do is, you know, they had like raw egg with it like a yolk. Yeah, I just couldn't do that.

[C]

A little salmonella concern.

[B]

Yeah, Sea urchin and that.

[A]

See, I knew, I knew you'd have a. I knew you'd have a bunch of different things. You went over to. To speak at a meeting or speak at the school. Tell us some of the things that you learned about their beef production system there.

[B]

So I guess I didn't do my homework before I went. So I went over to speak on a couple topics that I've been working on for the last year, year and a half on high path. Avian influenza. Again, that's pretty big over there. Again, poultry is what they consume the most of. And so that's a big issue. High path is there. And then recently, probably mid November, they had their first African swine fever outbreak. And it was happened to be in the city that I was in. I think they had 300 animals that they had to cull. And again, pork is their second largest protein that they consume. And so those are the two topics that I went over to speak on. Again, I didn't know much about their production, their livestock production, but I did learn that, you know, they've got less than 200,000 head of cattle, beef cattle, they can produce about 5% of what they consume. So that means 95%, basically is all imports. And, and I asked, where do you import? They're like the U.S. so I went back after the fact, and about 50% of their imports come from the U.S. the U.S. wow.

[A]

It's surprising that they import that much.

[B]

I. Well, it's not surprising because it's mostly, it's a small island with lots of people and mountains, and so they don't have the capacity. They just don't do space. Yeah, yeah, but I didn't realize they would import everything from the U.S. yeah.

[C]

You'D almost think other sources like Australia.

[B]

New Zealand or Brazil, but no. 50. And then the second largest importer, they would import from Australia and then South America.

[D]

Well, that's.

[G]

That's good.

[B]

No, it is good.

[C]

Import or exporting some product to them.

[B]

And most all the beef that I consumed was, Was off Wagyu, coming from Japan, so we had some steaks and tongues and everything else, but it was really good.

[A]

So as they look at that, because that import is way different. Do they have different concerns relative to what kind of beef they import? Do they have specific restrictions or are they just what is the criteria?

[B]

Yeah, I don't mean. I never really asked what criteria. They, you know, obviously they must like high Quality beef because that's what they're importing from the U.S. they must like their grain fed. Again, everything I was coming from Japan, it was wagyu and so very marbled and yes. So that's. But again I think looking up, I mean they consume, I want to think 45 kilos annual per capita consumption for poultry, 35 for pork and only 8 or 9 for beef. So they don't consume very much beef.

[A]

So what's the differences in. Because you were at a vet school, right?

[B]

Well, I was in the applied economics, but they do have a vet school right there on campus that I went and took a quick tour of and animal science department was right there. And do.

[A]

Do they have without having the capacity for some of the cattle production are there focuses on some of the other ag industries. Do you look at the. Do they look at people going into poultry or swimming swine or some of those.

[B]

So I didn't visit any livestock farms this time and I probably wouldn't have if they wanted me to just because ASF and high Path and coming back into the US that wouldn't have been real good. But I was there in 2019 and I did go visit farms, livestock farms. I visited their research farms. I didn't see cattle. I mean I saw a few dairy cows, but what I saw was lots of chickens and lots of pigs. And so I would assume that what they focus on on the livestock side would be those two species. When I did talk to some of the folks about the vet school and we're looking at it and they said no, everybody wants to be a small animal vet. And that's what they primarily focus is small animals. And when I went to the capital city in Taipei, we walked around there one day and you. I mean I saw all these, I mean we're talking a city of 3.5 million people. Saw all these vet clinics. Right. And I mean they were just little shops and so I'd assume those are probably small animals in the big city.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting difference in having a high reliance on imported meat and imported ag products. But they don't have the space. It sounds like.

[B]

Nope, nope. That vest schools I would assume one of very few in the country and it's probably even fewer that do anything ag related because that's an ag school as well. I mean they've got other majors but I mean they've got an ag college. And so I would assume that's probably one of the maybe the only one that does any livestock related.

[A]

Excellent. Well, thanks for sharing with us. Dustin, I'm glad you went on that trip and were able to come back. Speaking of trips we had, Cameron Best stopped in a week or so ago, and we were able to visit with him and Dr. Eduardo Bortoluzzi about some of the differences in welfare and how they manage cattle in Australia versus the US let's talk to Cameron. We were able to catch Cameron Best from Australia, spend a little time with us here at the bci, and we've enjoyed our visit with him. And I've got Philip and Eduardo and Bob and Cameron. I know one of the things that we were talking about is differences between the US And Australia and also some similarities. And I know Eduarda had a question for you.

[H]

Yeah. So I look at Australia kind of similar to Brazil on how you produce cattle, and one of the big differences I see from us is that we focus a lot on biological function here, which we have the animals confined. We can see them every day and it's easy to treat. We don't have to worry about predation. While in Australia, Brazil, we kind of focus more on natural l. So they are out in the pasture, they can perform their normal behaviors, but then we have some pressures on health and also predation. So if you could talk about a little bit mortality and some predation that you might face in the situation of having cattle in Australia.

[G]

Yeah, well, again, I refer back to the northern part of the country was where my expertise and my answer is not going to pertain to the more temperate or southern areas. But look, I can state with pretty good confidence. And, you know, the meat and livestock Australia have produced some interesting reports on exactly what the losses are. But dry stock, you're 1 to 2% a year. Breeders, you're going to be somewhere between 3 to 5% losses. However, there are situations where breeder losses get a lot higher than that in certain situations. And then also the predation, you know, we have the illustrious dingo there. And, you know, I think dingo baiting's been going on for 100 years and they're still there. And I think there's an answer there we haven't yet discovered. Right. But look, you know, a single dog is not gonna cause too much problems. And I've got photos of a single dog walking through a mobber cow and they're not even moving. It's when, you know, they find a weak calf and there's two dingoes or something, you're going to lose that calf.

[H]

Yeah, a little bit different from our jaguars, for sure.

[G]

Yes, a lot different than your Jaguars, because.

[A]

Yeah, you know, big difference in predation species. Whereas you have pack hunters versus individual.

[H]

Yeah, correct.

[A]

Jaguars versus the dingo.

[C]

We just don't worry about jaguars and dingoes in Kansas, I think. I mean, occasional coyote problem, but it's kind of nice to know somebody else has got different problems than I do.

[A]

Yeah, much, much different scenario. And it's one of the things you try to. You try to control some of those. But when you have extensive grazing scenarios, what are some of the options? Are there options that you can do? Do you check them more frequently? What are some of the management techniques?

[G]

Yeah, I don't think there's too many more options. Surprisingly, though, in terms of checking, they're actually quite. They see humans. It's just you don't have them in the yard too often because we have extensive water systems. So there's water people, or what we call bore runners that are out there continually. Every three or four days, they're gonna see a vehicle. And if they're at the trough, they'll see humans out cleaning water troughs and. And that type of thing. So really, you know, it boils down to two decision windows or three decision windows at a max a year. And so good management is going to be like landing an aircraft. That's how you have to see those decisions.

[H]

So my next question is to how you round the cattle to bring them up to work. Because in Brazil it's pretty much all horses. And then I came to us and it's all ATVs. And I've heard that some other places use helicopters. So just want to know what is your.

[G]

Yeah, well, helicopters are the. You know, it's a combination of vehicles. So helicopters will get the cattle moving to the direction what the head stockman's discussed with the helicopter pilot. Then you'll hit motorbikes that then pick them up. And then you'll have, you know, a group of stockmen on horses that have a coach mob into that mob. So the actual shepherding's done by the horses when you get them in a big mob. And, you know, a lot of places now invested a lot in a lot more fences, a lot more waters. So they'll just aggregate a mob of 800 to 1000 head and then just put them in a lane with a couple of staff and walk them down to the ashes.

[H]

So it's a lot about logistics and how to get that done.

[G]

Yes, a lot about logistics because, you know, especially the helicopters, limited on fuel. So that head stockman and that head part and the pilot have got to be. And they're on walking talkies and they're communicating. Right. All the time. And that helicopter could be doing another paddock as well, going backwards and forwards in the bigger stations. So that's how it's done in the north. But as you move further south, the helicopters drop off and what's happening now is drones are sort of taking that space.

[H]

Yeah, I've heard that.

[G]

And then as you get further in, obviously it gets more and more like it is here. You know, ATVs and motorbikes and still horses. Still a lot of horses get used.

[A]

Very interesting. And we talk about extensive. It's a lot more extensive than some of our pastures. When you're getting out helicopters to go out.

[H]

Oh, yeah, for sure. It's even different from Brazil, too. So that's really interesting.

[A]

Excellent. Well, we appreciate you sharing with us. Thanks, Cameron.

[G]

Thank you.

[A]

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to have him on. And Todd, appreciate you catching a question for us as well. And thanks for your discussion today. Thanks for listening in. If you have questions, comments or things you'd like us to discuss, send us an email at bcisu Edu.