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- [00:07]
A
Hi, welcome to BCI Cattle Chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us today and happy to have our crew here in the studio. Morning, Dustin. Good morning, Bob.
- [00:13]
B
Hello, guys.
- [00:14]
A
Philip.
- [00:15]
C
Hello, everybody.
- [00:16]
A
So we've got several good topics to discuss today, and we've got a listener question that we're going to address on porons in cattle. If you have a listener question, you can send it in to us at bciasu. Edu or reach out to us on any of our social media. Social medias. We'll also talk a little bit about a project that Philip's working on relative to drought decisions. Or really it's about forage utilization and how do I project forward when I need to make a decision to move on or off pasture and innovation in ag. Before we get to those topics, guys, it's springtime thunderstorm season out a little bit last night and got pretty soaked pretty quickly. I want to hear about a time that you got caught out unprepared for the weather, thunderstorm or other, and ended up getting a little bit too wet. That ever happened?
- [01:09]
B
Absolutely. One of the wettest I ever got was a high school football game. As a fan in the stands, and I mean, the money in my wallet was wet. It was just. It was the most soaked I've ever been.
- [01:24]
A
And those can be really cold games.
- [01:26]
B
Exactly.
- [01:27]
A
And you just sit there and you just take it.
- [01:29]
D
Yeah. I don't know off the top of my head, but I mean, I remember, you know, sitting baseball games and stuff like that, and you just.
- [01:36]
B
You just take it.
- [01:37]
D
Yeah, you just take it and you're like, well, I'm gonna get wet and, like, go home and change. When I'm.
- [01:42]
A
I've always got a jacket in my truck, but then usually we take a different vehicle when we go to those games. So it's not helpful. Philip.
- [01:49]
C
I'm trying to think. I mean, I've been soaked plenty of times, I think, but I don't. I'm trying to remember. I mean, probably the. Probably one of the worst that I can remember was I had a research project and we were. It was just a wet spring, and we needed to put up hot wire and sample pastures and move cattle to a new area because they just had to be moved. I had on a full rain kind of rain suit, and so it helped some, but it was just completely wet and miserable and it was just pouring the whole time we were doing it.
- [02:26]
A
Yeah. And hot wire, long lengths of wire, when it's actually a thunderstorm with lightning. Maybe not.
- [02:32]
C
Yeah. Well, yeah, probably, maybe not, but lightning attractor around, so.
- [02:40]
A
Excellent. Now we'll flip the conversation. We're talking about being too wet. We've talked about drought before and this is one of the things that. Philip, you're doing some research on this and I'm going to have you outline your, your project here in a second. But, but essentially we want to know before it happens. And we could look at long range weather forecasts or other things, but I need to be able to make a decision of how do I start managing my pasture now because a little preparation can be very helpful. Tell us how you're trying to address that problem.
- [03:10]
C
Okay, well, yeah, so we, we got a project where we are trying to build some tools that will help producers decide when they're going into a drought. Not that that we, you know, trying to be proactive and notice early that we are getting drier than, than we should be and be able to make some early decisions to help with maintaining as much forage and carrying capacity as possible or getting some of that feedback early. And so some of the things that we're, we're looking at is tracking rainfall relative to long term averages. And we're building it, we're actually building app, a mobile app that would help with this. But you know, it setting up where okay, you're, you're 90% below normal for the now, you know, now you're 80% below normal. Now you're you know, 75% below normal. And you, you decide as you're seeing those reminders or notifications come through from the app that okay, when do I make a decision? And obviously the producers got to decide that, but when do I make a decision to implement my contingency? And then I have to have a contingency plan. The other part of that is you could start, you can monitor forage. So knowing that okay, I am grazing, I've got a grazing plan and I know I should be in this pasture for this many days and then rotate to this next pasture. And I'm watching forage and I have to rotate two, three days early and knowing, okay, so then I start to recognize and can monitor that this is what should have happened based on normal year. But this year I had to move early. And so I know that my forage production is probably not at where I would expect it to be for a normal year. And so I'm behind a little bit and so I can start to notice these things and make decisions and implement my contingency plan early and not get caught in a bad Situation.
- [05:15]
A
Well, and I think that's one of the things that is really helpful about that is it's an ongoing process because a lot of us, you're watching the pasture, I'm thinking about things, but I may not be have that reminder or that kind of stimulant to say, okay, now is the time to start making some of these decisions, because I don't know the outcome, but it kind of gives me something to look forward to a little bit. And that's one way of risk management. I know, Dustin, you've talked about other risk management techniques that I might use with some types of insurance.
- [05:48]
D
Yeah, in particular, when we were thinking about this, there's one particular product that came to mind was the pasture rangeland forage insurance, which is trying to protect against reduced rainfall. And so then if you do get that payment, that would help cover costs associated with maybe supplemental feed or other reduced rainfall expenses. So, yeah, just an insurance product, try to help reduce that risk.
- [06:11]
B
Well, I think, you know, anybody in the livestock industry or cattle, drought is one of the. It's a predictable, unpredictable problem. You know, we know we're going to have years with below average or above average rainfall, so we have to have a plan to deal with it. So when you were talking about your app or your method of kind of helping make these decisions, is some of it based on forage production? And if so, how do you. Is it just like measuring forage height at different areas or how are you going to determine what forage production has been on the fly?
- [06:42]
C
Well, so I think part of it is going to be based on animal unit days. So if I had planned out, based on my best estimate of forage production from previous years and the number of grazing days I should get out of this pasture on previous years or whatever, then I know that if I'm not getting the number of grazing days out of a particular pasture that I should be. I know my forage production is behind, and so I can start to make some estimates. And then if I can also use that in comparison with cumulative precipitation for the year, then I. I can start to get more information and know when to make decisions. And so a lot of it is going to be based on what's expected or what's. Yeah, what quote, unquote, what's the normal year? And so I can make judgments on that.
- [07:28]
B
What's the relationship between rainfall and forage production in that if I'm at 90% of expected rainfall, does that mean I have 90% as much grazing days or what's the relationship or is that what your research is about?
- [07:43]
C
Well, so we're not really doing the research like that. And I don't know if that relationship is truly, is truly that linear because it matters when the rainfall happens. So, you know, we think about what we call a water year. A water year starts generally the fall before. And so you've got accumulation of soil moisture throughout the winter and things like that, and as we go into spring. But still that rainfall in late early spring and late, well, just spring in general, I guess you would say, is the biggest impactor. And so I could have a lot of moisture through the winter months. And if it gets kind of starts to get kind of dry early in, in May for my warm season grasses, I'm probably going to have a reduction in forage growth because I need those inches of rain there in May to make a big difference. If I get cool season grasses, it's probably the rains in March and early April that make the biggest difference. And so the timing of rainfall makes a difference. And with this app, the producer will be able to evaluate not just the cumulative for the whole water year, but they'll be able to look at, well, I want to look at what I've had in the last two months or what I've had in the last three months or whatever and compare that to the historic average for those three months and go from there.
- [09:09]
A
Okay, so how tightly do I need to track the forage production to align with where I am? Because sometimes we talk about measuring forage heights, multiple spots in the pasture, multiple places. Is it going to be very labor intensive to get enough data to be useful to make these decisions?
- [09:27]
C
Well, I think you can look at that and you can look at some of your ungrazed pastures and see where they're at. But again, I think one of the biggest and the most telling is, is the animal unit days you've got so far. I mean, we're not going to make this decision. I mean, before turnout, you know, we're, the cattle are going to be out on pasture. We're going to, we're going to be making that decision sometime in early summer and monitoring this because most of our forage production is going to happen in the first half of the growing season or the, or more than half of it happens in the first half of the growing season. And so we need to, we can monitor as we're going. And if I'm not getting the number of grazing days that I should in each pasture, then I know I'm behind.
- [10:11]
A
And so what's your action if you, if you're behind, what do I do? What do I do differently?
- [10:16]
C
Well, that's where producers got to come up with their contingency plan. They need to know what they're going to do if whatever trigger happens. So am I going to start looking to buy hay early or am I going to cull some stockers? Am I going to get rid of some less productive cows even though they got a calf on them? I just might sell them as a pair and get rid of some mouths to feed some way. So I mean, those are your main two options when we come to drought and lack of forest production is I either got to buy feed of some type or I've got to get rid of mouths to feed. And so producer has to weigh his options for his particular situation. I mean, how he's going to adapt to the changing forage production.
- [11:03]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that'll be good. And when do you anticipate this, this tool will be available?
- [11:09]
C
Well, we're working on designing and building it now that the goal is to have a beta version this fall and then getting things rolled out over the next year here.
- [11:22]
A
Excellent. So we'll, we'll learn more about that as that progresses. Thanks, Philip, for sharing with us on that research. I want to change topics to a listener question that we had and the listener asked about using a pour on dewormer and said that they had heard you don't want to apply that over the kidneys because it could be associated with kidney or liver failure. They couldn't find any information on this. Bob, I'm going to ask you.
- [11:49]
B
Yeah, I'm really not concerned about where a poron is applied on the animal. You know, it's designed to be poured along the top line. But what happens really is that is absorbed right there at the skin into the blood system and then it goes throughout the body. And so the, the pour on that's applied over the, you know, the, the back part of the back doesn't go to the kidneys any more than the pon that goes to the front, you know, right over the shoulders. It's all going to go into the bloodstream.
- [12:16]
A
The back of the back versus the front of the back.
- [12:18]
B
Yeah, the front of the. So it's all going to go, it's going to go through the bloodstream and it's going to be filtered by the kidneys and the liver. But it's not preferential from where it was placed on the skin. So that's the beauty of these topical Pour ons is they get absorbed pretty well through the skin and then they're going to go everywhere.
- [12:36]
A
Otherwise, for things like dewormer, it's not effective if it doesn't go systematically.
- [12:41]
D
Right, so you talk about pouring it on and it goes into the skin. Can it go into my skin if I'm pouring it on?
- [12:47]
B
Ah, good point. Yes, it can. And I think that's one of the things that we need to be maybe, maybe speak about more often is when we're using these poins that are absolutely designed to be absorbed through thick cattle skin. Well, yeah, it can go through human skin as well. And so you really should be wearing, you know, latex gloves or nitrile gloves to prevent that because some people and some, some products that we use can cause health problems in humans if absorbed. And so it's really wise to use a, you know, a barrier type of a glove when applying these porins because that's exactly what they're designed to do, is be absorbed through the skin.
- [13:26]
A
Well, and I think that is one of the things that there are multiple products because they talked about a poron dewormer. There are several classes of drugs. There are also poron products that we use for other conditions as well. And with any of those you've got absorption through the right.
- [13:40]
B
Some are more likely to cause problems in humans than others. But I think it's just wise to just treat all porons as well, recognizing that they're going to be absorbed through the skin and so treat them accordingly.
- [13:52]
A
So is this the same with injections? You talked about the location. Does it matter for the pour on? Does it matter with the injections? Because we have a lot of injections in the neck.
- [14:01]
B
Good point. Also. Yeah, exactly the same concept in that if I give an injection in the neck, it will be absorbed and go throughout the body. If I give an injection in the round or someplace else, it's going to be absorbed and go throughout the body. So it doesn't really matter. So an injection in the round isn't going to go preferentially to the back half of the animal and an injection in the neck is not going to preferentially go to the front half of the animal. They go throughout the animal.
- [14:28]
A
So if we use BQA guidelines, we can give them all in the neck and expect the same level of efficacy with any of the products.
- [14:35]
B
That's exactly right. And I'm going to add just a couple more details is it is important to use the route that's on the label and the, the main Differences are subcutaneous or intramuscular. So if it's labeled to be intramuscular, it needs to go into the, a thick muscle like in the neck. If it's subcutaneous, it needs to go under the skin and not in the muscle, if that's what's labeled. Because that does matter to. I mean, the products have been really designed for the amount of blood flow, the location. And for many products, there's some BQA reasons, some beef quality assurance reasons, some carcass blemish reasons to go subcutaneous if possible. But those products were made to go subcutaneous. And then there's a few products that just don't work very well subcutaneous. And so on the label it says they have to go in the muscle. And they do. They have to go in the muscle.
- [15:27]
C
So, Bob, kind of back to the pour on discussion. If it's going to be absorbed through the skin, are there certain situations where, how long does that take? I mean, what if it's going to, what if it's going to rain? What if, I mean, what, what do I need to do to make sure that that product's effective?
- [15:43]
B
Right. Well, rainfall is one of the things that can affect, you know, how effective a pour on is. And that again, most of the time on the label, it will tell you how many hours you need to be sure that it doesn't get washed off by, by rain. And usually it's a handful of hours. So again, none of us are perfect weather predictors. But if you're processing cattle, we talked, we started this session with, you know, those downpours. If you're using a pour on that is not effective to be using a pour on on a day when the cattle are going to be out in a, in a downpour. And so you do have to keep those things in mind as you kind of plan your processing days.
- [16:22]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And I think good feedback there on that question. Thanks, Bob and crew for answering that. The next thing I'd like to discuss, and you guys get to go to a lot of different meetings, see people in other areas. We've talked to a lot of researchers that are evaluating new technologies. I want to get your insights on. What do you see as next? What are some of the next innovations in the ag space, specifically livestock? What do you see coming next?
- [16:51]
B
Well, I think you can't talk about innovations without talking about artificial intelligence and the possibilities to use that technology to, to use a lot of data and to make decisions. I think that'll be a really interesting area because I'm not sure I can predict exactly where some of the innovations are going to be. We're seeing probably more work on the crop side, you know, optimizing irrigation schedules and optimizing, you know, planting, mapping, those types of things. On the livestock side, there's still a lot of data intensive decisions, including on the, on the feedlot side, you know, optimal slaughter weights. And honestly, that. That's also true. And that ties into what Philip was talking about earlier. Optimum wean dates, optimum sale dates for the cattle. And again, it, it's. It should be a very customized decision based on this year. And it's this year's rainfall, this year's forage production, this year's, and even to the specific ranch, what it would cost me to bring in extra forage. What are calves worth now versus the futures price. I think there's so much complexity to some of the decisions that we make, such as optimum marketing times, that artificial intelligence might allow us to make more optimized decisions. And again, the beauty is it becomes for my operation based on my costs and my resources. I mean, maybe somebody else has additional pasture or something, so their decision is different.
- [18:26]
C
Philip, you know, I've been, I'm trying to think from a, from a nutrition standpoint. I think one of the things that we are learning is that the bacterial population in the GI tract is not as simple as we thought. It's much more complex and it's much more diverse among individuals. And so I think from nutrition of cattle and managing them, I think we're moving in a direction to where we're learning a lot more about that. And there's going to be a lot of products and technologies developed to manipulate that microbial population, the GI tract, because it affects, it affects not just nutrient digestion, but affects the health of the animal and the performance and metabolism of the animal systemically. It's not just about what happens in the gut, it affects what happens in the whole of the animal. And so I think there's going to be a lot of products in that regard. I think we're going to start to learn. There's a little bit of stuff, research happening, maybe a little bit more on the human side, but also on the animal side of what I call nutraceuticals. Basically some of those compounds in feeds that aren't nutritional compounds, they aren't protein, they aren't carbohydrates, they aren't fat. There are other things that do affect that microbial population. They affect metabolism of the animal. Other things like that. And so we're going to start to learn a lot more about some of those things where we're going to be really fine tuning nutritional programs I think from in that regard in livestock species in the next decade or so.
- [20:18]
B
Yeah.
- [20:18]
A
And that, that gut tie to a lot of areas and the microbiome is specifically an area, as you start looking at that, and that is essentially all of the bacteria and life that's in that gut and ways to modify it. There could be some vast improvements. Dustin, what do you see?
- [20:36]
D
I guess the first thing that came to my mind was what Bob said was the AI or the artificial. Artificial intelligence. Right. I kept thinking insemination, but.
- [20:46]
C
That.
- [20:46]
D
And then also just, I don't know if you use word machine learning, but I think just, you know, there's lots of data out there and with computer, the computing power these days, I think more and more data is being collected, allows us to make more, you know, to use the machine learning which then can automate things. Again, Bob might have mentioned that as well. You know, biosensors, which is part of this. I think maybe we can get on from an animal health perspective. Maybe you catch diseases earlier. I don't know if gene editing is a thing as well. I guess I'd like to get your thoughts there. But you know, if we can try to help remove diseases, I guess those.
- [21:25]
B
Are all things I think that will be looked at. And the interesting thing about trying to predict the future is things that we haven't even thought of will crop up and be highly effective and utilized a lot. And things that we thought were going to be utilized may have some hidden challenges or roadblocks. So it's really kind of. It's fun to speculate and it's an interesting time because I think a lot of these are driven by computing power, just the ability to do math quicker and some of the innovations in, I guess, engineering, just that the machines that can either think or do work that are kind of neat new tools.
- [22:10]
A
Well, I think the gene editing is a good one to bring up too. Or you think about genetically modified organisms across whether it's crops or livestock or what that's going to be. We have been using planned breeding programs to make progress, but it's very incremental and slow and that may allow some changes there, especially specifically related to it. There's been some work done on specific diseases. The challenge is there's so many things linked to whether the animal is going to get the disease or not.
- [22:41]
C
Well, I think the combination of AI with genomics and genetic markers and that type of stuff. Being able to sort out those complexities of what genes are having, what kind of influence on different performance traits, and how we can then use gene editing to alter the genetic makeup of certain animals I think can be a huge improvement.
- [23:07]
D
But you gotta also be careful. We start thinking gene editing, you got to bring in. Brad said it's complex. One more thing to bring into that is the consumer side.
- [23:15]
B
Right?
- [23:15]
D
That's, we haven't mentioned that. That's just another, that's another part that just because we can do it doesn't mean we, doesn't mean that consumers are going to consume it.
- [23:23]
C
Yeah, but I mean the plant side has been doing gene editing for 30 plus years and had done a lot. I mean, we're just, we have just barely touched the tip of the iceberg on the animal side.
- [23:35]
A
And we didn't touch on things like drones or technological advances for vehicles. And not a one of you mentioned flying cars, which is a little disappointing to me. But I think those could all be good innovations. Thanks for joining us. If you have questions, topics, things you'd like us to discuss, send us an email at. VCIASU editor you.