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- [00:08]
A
Hi, welcome to BCI Cattle Chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us today and happy to have our full crew here in the studio. Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Brad. Bob.
- [00:16]
B
Hey, good morning, guys.
- [00:17]
A
Philip.
- [00:17]
C
Good morning, Dustin.
- [00:19]
D
Good morning.
- [00:20]
A
So we've got some great topics to discuss today. We've got a couple really good listener questions. If you ever have a listener question for us, you can send it to us@bcisu.edu and we can address it here. Or we have our other podcast, Bovine Science with bci, where we dive a little bit deeper into some of these topics and some one on one discussions. And if you have something that's better suited there, you can send it to the Same email, bcisu.edu. happy to address those. We really enjoy getting the chance to interact with you. Our questions today, One is on rye and feeding some of the seed. One is on moving locations pretty dramatically and how do you start a new operation?
- [00:57]
E
And.
- [00:57]
A
And then we're also going to talk about some research that we've been a part of. We've got upcoming through the FAR program, which I'll describe that as we get into it. Before we get into that, guys, I've had a little bit of a worry lately because I don't know if this is going to come to fruition or not, but a lot of times when texting, I will use the thumbs up and that indicates everything from acknowledgement to yes, I completely agree with you. To yeah, okay, that's fine. Right? It gives us a wide variety and I just need the one symbol. I've heard rumors they're going to outlaw the thumbs up symbol. So now you'll have to figure out what other emoji you would use most frequently. Which emoji? I see the hand signals, Dustin, and you can't use that one in our professional conversations. But what other emoji are you going to use? If the thumbs up is outlawed, can.
- [01:51]
B
You do the circle with your thumb and finger and say okay, is that still allowed?
- [01:55]
A
Yeah, might be able to do that.
- [01:57]
B
That might work.
- [01:58]
C
Philip, Can I do thumb sideways?
- [01:59]
A
Thumb sideways. That's zero commitment. You don't even have to respond in that case. Brian.
- [02:06]
E
I usually use the thumbs up as a. Yeah, agree. And so I'll probably use the little people. The little, I don't know, like outside the car dealership, they got the two people. So our phones, there's one where you can express your agreement with little celebratory people. So that's the one.
- [02:26]
B
Wow.
- [02:27]
A
I don't have that.
- [02:28]
D
So are you talking about the actual thumb or the big yellow thumb? Or is it the one that you.
- [02:34]
A
Can like a text now? The big yellow thumb.
- [02:37]
D
Do you like the text?
- [02:38]
A
Right.
- [02:38]
D
Still gives you the thumbs up.
- [02:39]
A
See, you're more tech Savage. You're gonna have to talk to Larson after the podcast. Tell him how you like a text.
- [02:45]
B
I usually just go, okay, like two letters.
- [02:48]
A
Okay. Ye. Yeah, I got a friend who will sometimes just text back K. And I'm like, you didn't have time to type both O and K. Each types K. Well.
- [03:00]
C
It'S faster to type okay than to go find the emoji for the thumbs up. Unless it's in the automatic reply section thing down there that automatically pops up and gives you that option. You just push that button.
- [03:09]
A
I think Dustin's gonna have to give us a seminar on phone utilization. And I'm interested in Brian's guy that's does the waving around. So we'll have to do that. Okay. If that comes to fruition. Philip, this listener question seems to have your name on it, because I think I put your name on is from a listener that talks about they've been planting rye as a cover crop and they're going to harvest some of it for seed so that they can plant next year, but they're going to end up with more seed than what they need just for planting. Can you use this as part of a cattle ration? And if so, what are kind of the qualities, pros and cons of doing that?
- [03:49]
C
Yeah, you can use it in a cattle ration. So there's lots of cereal grains that we use in cattle rations. Wheat, oats, barley, rye is going to be somewhere probably similar to oats. It's got a higher fiber content than wheat, and so it's probably going to be more similar to oats. I did find some research out of South Dakota that looked at feeding it and they looked at processing it. So in their study, they looked at trying to dry roll it or hammer mill it versus feeding it whole and processing it didn't seem to improve cattle performance any. So don't necessarily think you need to spend the money to have it processed. If you're going to put it in a ration, would you.
- [04:34]
A
Would you feed it as a primary component, or is this something you'd look at supplementing in on the ration or any pros and cons to that?
- [04:43]
C
Well, so that was another part of their research. This was in finishing cattle. So this is a little bit different situation. And they did one in growing Cattle that I'll get to here in a minute. But in finishing cow, they looked at replacing corn. So corn was 60% of the diet and they, they looked at replacing 20, 40 or the whole 60% of the corn in the diet. And through the first two thirds of the finishing phase, cattle feed intake and performance were the same. But at the last part of the feeding phase, the intake of those cattle did not spike as high. So on the ones that had rye grain in the diet and so overall their dry matter intake was lower, their average daily gain was lower and their feed conversion was worse. But then they did a study on looking at backgrounding cattle and grow and growing cattle kind of the same thing, except the total corn in the diet wasn't that high and they saw no difference in performance. So, you know, so growing replacement heifers or background in cattle, I think you could, looks like you could replace pretty much all the corn in the diet if you wanted to with some whole rye grain without having any detriment to cattle performance.
- [06:00]
A
Any potential disease concerns or toxic type concerns. Bob?
- [06:05]
B
Yeah, there is a concern. Cereal grains and rye is actually one of the ones that are a bigger risk for a problem. Basically a fungus, an ergot fungus that, that sets up in the seed head and it can be quite damaging to animals that consume that. And what we see is what they call vasoconstriction. The arteries in the body get, they spasm till they're, they're shut. So things like tails can fall off, feet can be damaged, feet can even fall off. So similar to, and it's very similar to fescue toxicosis. Some of the same chemical cascades are happening there. So it is really important to look at the rye grass crop, walk through that field and you're looking for basically up in the seed head.
- [06:58]
E
They'Re a.
- [06:58]
B
Little bigger than the size of a seed, but really dark, like black, purple, dark brown, something like that. And they almost look like rat droppings or something like that in the seed head. Those are really loaded with these irigot alkaloids and can be quite damaging and I would not use it as a feed stuff if that was a part of the crop that I saw.
- [07:19]
A
Good point. One clarification I'll make so you can't, in this case we can see the ergot in fescue. We don't always see the endophyte that actually causes the disease. But I think with that caution in mind that rye can be certainly part of the ration. And thank you for that, for that question next. Next topic we'd like to discuss. And BCI is part of a grant that was recently funded by by the FAR ICASA program. And I want to describe that program so far is the foundation for Food and Agricultural Research. And ICASA is an acronym for the International Consortium for Antimicrobial Stewardship in Agriculture. And it's a pretty unique program. And I want to talk a little bit about the grant. Philip, Dustin, you guys have and Bob, you guys have been a part of some of these others. So recently the Beef Cattle Institute's part of a team from, of course, here at Kansas State, which includes our group working with Colorado State, Mississippi State, Texas A and M. And one of our investigators is now at Rowan University in New Jersey. And that multi institutional grant, we've put together a proposal to look at some of the things that we see later in the feeding phase associated with pulmonary disease. So all aspects of that. And I think this funding opportunity is a little bit unique. But Bob and Dustin, Philip, you guys are a part of that grant. You want to talk a little bit about some of the aspects of what we're going to be looking into?
- [08:52]
B
Yeah, first of all, it is an interesting type of grant because it does require some it actually requires interaction with partners in the field. And so we're getting real world data from partners. And as you said, it's really an investigation into the different types of lung disease. You know, we talk about bovine respiratory disease, and a lot of times we know what we're talking about. As far as, you know, if you're talking to other veterinarians, you're thinking about certain types of bacteria and stresses that set up the cattle for that type of disease, but there are actually other lung diseases and things that can look like lung diseases. And so we're looking at not only kind of the classic pneumonia, respiratory disease, but other like Dustin's mentioned, atypical interstitial pneumonia or acute interstitial pneumonia. Those are different types of pneumonia and they're different risk factors. And we want to look at other things that cause some health problems and death, loss.
- [09:53]
A
And Philip, you're looking at some of the interplay between nutrition or feeding patterns and potentially some of those disease. What are some of the things you're evaluating?
- [10:02]
C
So, yeah, so we're going to look at how we can associate nutrition, feed characteristics, GI issues with the pulmonary lesions that we're seeing in cattle or cattle that have been treated for these different respiratory issues. And so like some of the things that we're looking at, we're looking at rumen lesions or ulcerations. We're looking at hemorrhagic things in the small intestine in some of the necropsies we're doing. We're looking at different ration components and particle size of the diet and the association there. We're looking at. And then feeding patterns over time. So not just, well, what was the average daily intake of those cattle? And that will be included, but the average daily intake over the whole feeding period could get there several different ways, you know. And so what did the pattern of intake look like over that feeding period?
- [11:09]
A
Exactly. And the potential associations with disease. And then on the, on the other side, Dustin, you've got a student already working on some of these things, but talk a little bit about what you see as important from this project, from the economic side.
- [11:24]
D
Yeah. And so as Bob mentioned that, you know, it's a multidisciplinary team and I don't know all the different disciplines, you guys can read them out, but there's a lot. Right. And so it's a very multidisciplinary group, including the economics is brought in. And as we mentioned on an earlier podcast, specific on this project Got a PhD student in Agriculture economics, Mary Beth, who is looking at, you know, aip, looking at different things with aip, but mostly we're really interested in the economics.
- [11:53]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned. So on this grant, we have epidemiologists, economists, nutritionists, pathologists, data scientists that are digging into different areas. And so we're trying to approach it from multiple areas. And you guys both mentioned working with collaborators. And I think it's important to talk a little bit about the uniqueness of this program so far. The foundation for Food and Agriculture Research is set up. It was set up in the 2014 farm bill, and it really is supposed to complement the usda, although it's a little bit different. So through much of our careers, we've gotten research funding through usda. You apply for a grant, you get a grant. In this case, the goal with FAR is to really help build those private public partnerships. So on this particular project, we're working with several individual feed yards as well as consulting groups to try to work through the process. And I like that part of the process because it keeps us as researchers with our eye on the correct things. Right. We don't get off track. We're getting to answers that are directly applicable to those organizations because they're, because they're part of the process. Specifically, ICASA is the International Consortium for Antimicrobial stewardship and ag. And what they're trying to do is invest in practical solutions, technology, management practices that promote judicious use of antimicrobials, which Brian is right up your alley. And I think this is a great way to get some of these type of projects funded.
- [13:28]
E
Yeah, absolutely. I think clearly there's a focus on how we use animicrobials and animal agriculture. And a lot of the projects that have been funded by this group, I think as you said, they're emphasizing that public private partnership so that it's not just academic answers to a real world problem, it's real world answers to something that we're trying to improve on.
- [13:52]
A
Yeah. And I like being able to have those discussions with those partners. And every one of these grants, you'll have partners to different levels that are actually making contributions. Everybody contributes to the process. So whether it's university or some of the private partners of achieving some of those goals.
- [14:08]
B
Yeah, I think it's really important to point out, point out that in this process those partnerships, they're bringing resources to the table, which means, and again, it's like what Brian said, it's more than other funding mechanisms. It really does cause honest conversations between. Because everybody's bringing resources to the table. And so from our standpoint, from the academic standpoint is we need to make sure that we're bringing value to, to those private partners because they've got resources, they've got skin in the game and they expect us to provide answers.
- [14:45]
A
It's easy to send a letter of support and say, yeah, this is a great research idea, but when you actually commit resources, people, time, cattle, access, data, you really want to be sure that whatever you're committing to that has some sort of return. And from our standpoint, we're the same way. Right. So I really like this methodology process as we, as we go forward. And Philip, you've been a part of a couple others. I know Dustin has too, but you've done some other stuff relative to liver abscesses. Similar type process where you're collaborating and your collaborators on that grant are different than on this current grant just because of the nature of the project.
- [15:26]
C
So like on, on that grant, again, we have some feed yards that are contributing data and other information and we have a couple of beef packers that are contributing data and funding to it to make it happen.
- [15:40]
A
So it also helps bridge some of the gaps that we see between segments of the industry. So I think that far program, and I know I kind of went on a little bit, but it is a very good program for what we're doing and it helps keep us. Specifically, Beef Cattle Institute is focused on applied research for most of what we do, and this helps us get some of those applied answers.
- [16:02]
C
Well, I think this program is really focused on applied research because of that private partnership, whereas some of the other grant opportunities are not necessarily focused only on applied research.
- [16:16]
A
Yep, absolutely. And we need both. Right? For. For an industry, we need both. But this is a great mechanism. So I'm going to switch gears, guys. And, and this is, I think, a really good listener question and I want to get your everybody's thoughts on this because you'll all have different perspectives. And it's from a listener that is from South Africa, has been living in South Africa and they're going to be moving to Alabama. They've had cattle in South Africa and they would like to know the best way to get started with a cattle operation in Alabama. And they have theorized, and I agree, that the climate is different in South Africa and they described as being in an arid region near a desert than it will be in Alabama. So I think we could all agree that that's probably true.
- [17:05]
B
Yep. There's going to be some differences.
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A
It's going to be some differences. And there may be a different accent.
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B
There could be.
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A
There could be. So it could all be English, but you still got to. You still got to be able to communicate, maybe different. But. But what are your first thoughts on how, how would you get started in that scenario?
- [17:22]
B
Well, first of all, and I love the question because it implies some humility. And that's one of the things that, that the great thing about beef cattle is that they can thrive in multiple environments. Different, you know, different main forage source, different temperature environments, a lot of different situations. Cattle can thrive, but the management is going to have to be different in each of those. And as you know, I've been involved in the cattle industry my whole life, but there's parts of the cattle industry, geographic parts of the United States, that I have just spent so little time. I would not feel comfortable giving advice because the management is different for different geographic areas. So long way to answer. He's recognizing that it's going to be different. The management is going to be different as I move. I think it's going to be really important to get some local expertise, develop those relationships, because you're going to have to make some changes. It's not going to be the same as what your experience has been.
- [18:22]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Great idea to find somebody that's Been there, been doing it that you can trust and work with. There's likely an extension agent, there's likely some formalized people. I bet also involvement in local cattlemen's associations where you get to interact with peer producers will be very helpful. Brian, what are your thoughts? What would you recommend?
- [18:45]
E
I actually have a lot more questions than I have advice. I guess because it, the question, the, the listener question doesn't explicitly say are they moving here or do they just own the land? And they're gonna, they're gonna be an absentee owner. So that I need, I need to know that I also wanna know like what operational goals but specifically like how quickly does this operation have to be profitable? Like do you, do you need cash flow now or is this a long term investment where you've got the cash flow implications aren't quite as important because that would be a very different answer. I, I'd also want to know what's the current situation with this land as far as is the pasture been over grazed, is it in good shape? You know, getting and I think getting to what Bob's answer was some local expertise about stocking, density, having realistic expectations about how many cattle I can put on there. So you know, I think I can envision situations where, starting with bread heifers, if you were going to be on site and knew you had the labor resources and had less of a need for cash flow and it was good pasture versus you know, maybe another situation where cash flow needs are immediate and you might even be thinking about stocker calves to turn, to turn a little quicker cash. So. And totally agree. Local expertise is going to be really important because it is going to be dramatically different. But honestly, I don't know, it may not be that much different from moving to Kansas, to north Alabama. So yeah, like I said, I have a lot of questions before I could get to a very specific answer for this one operation.
- [20:30]
A
But I think those are great things to think about. Right. Those are great points to go through the process and discuss. Length of time before I get a return. What does that pasture look like? Because even we're, we're thinking geographically broad terms. But I'll bet within Alabama, just like within Kansas, there are pastures that you could go into that are kind of turnkey. You could start it up, start your production right away. There are others that are going to need a lot of development before you're ready to do that. Dustin, what are your thoughts on this scenario?
- [20:59]
D
I think, you know, Brian brings up a lot of really good points. Points until you Know, a lot of those questions that he brought up. It's. It's really hard to give maybe more specific advice.
- [21:08]
A
So I guess I'd be a little.
- [21:09]
D
More generic, kind of like Bob. And we've mentioned this on a number of different podcasts. Getting to know the local resources, right? Finding maybe a lender, local lender, start to build all those different kinds of relationships. So until you know some of the specifics like Brian mentioned, I would say just, you know, start talking to people, starting, you know, even maybe your neighbors, right. Start asking them lots of questions and trying to figure out.
- [21:32]
A
Yeah, totally agree. Philip, what are your thoughts?
- [21:36]
C
Well, a couple of. First things that come to my mind. One thing is Alabama has a pretty good environment for running stocker calves. And he mentions, you know, would he be better off to get young calves and fatten them? And so one thing that just understanding the feed resources in the area. You're not going to fatten calves in Alabama. You're just not going to have the efficiency and the economics in the environment to fatten calves. But you can grow young calves pretty well. He probably is not familiar with, I don't know, forages in South Africa at all. But northern Alabama is going to be fescue country. So you're going to be in the southern area of the Fescue Belt. And fescue is a whole different ball game when it comes to managing cattle on grass. And so he needs to start to educate himself on managing fescue and the implications of that on animal performance.
- [22:35]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And breeding season and reproduction and climate and how all those things go together. Expected rainfall. The other thing that, that I think to think about, and you touched on it a little bit, but thinking about what does that marketing look like? Because there are different markets here as we talk about marketing both feeder calves and fat cattle that you'll want to be. Have some familiarity with, because a lot of our industry does not feed those cattle all the way through, regardless of where you are. You talked about feed resources, but just from a marketing standpoint, thinking about what are some of the options there. But I think really, really good discussion and you guys had some good input. And the first things that you're saying are figure out what's, what's going on there locally, what works locally. And then as you can refine some of those specific questions, I think that that's helpful to go to the next step. But you have to think about all aspects of the operation. Brian raised some really good points on if I start with bred heifers, or even young replacement heifers. I started with young replacement heifers. I'm a couple years before I get any type of return in that scenario. And if I start with stocker calves, I could get a return sooner, but a little bit riskier. Right. So you've got different risk and different payout periods. So I'd probably Bob, put together some spreadsheets. You may already have some, I think.
- [23:57]
B
Absolutely. It's a great question for some spreadsheets.
- [24:00]
A
Thank you guys for that answer. And thanks for joining us today. If you have any questions for us, you can send us an email at bcisu Edu.