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- [00:00]
A
Foreign Caltech. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us and happy to have our crew here in the studio today. Good morning, Bob.
- [00:11]
B
Good morning, guys.
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A
Philip.
- [00:12]
C
Morning, guys.
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A
Dustin.
- [00:14]
D
Good morning, Scott.
- [00:16]
A
Howdy. And we've got our Special guest today, Dr. Jordana Zimmerman, who comes to us from Brazil. Morning, Jordana.
- [00:22]
E
Good morning.
- [00:23]
A
So we're happy to have you with us and happy to be able to discuss some of your research today. And you've been with us since last year doing a variety of projects. We're going to talk some about your project that looks at rate of consumption in cattle. We'll also talk about monitoring cattle on pasture. And then we're going to wrap up. We're going to have Dr. Brian Heron, who's a veterinary parasitologist here at Kansas State, who's going to come in and talk to us a little bit about screw worms because we know that's been a hot topic. So Jordana, tell us a little bit about you.
- [00:53]
E
So like you said, I'm Jordana Zimmerman, veterinarian from South Brazil, Gilgrandi du Sul. Graduated in vet school over there. I also did my master degree over there and then I joined BCI and Department of Anatomy and Physiology last year as a PhD student.
- [01:09]
A
So we have really enjoyed having you on board because you're great to work with. Not only with us, you work a lot with the other students. And we'll talk about your projects, some of the things you're looking at that are really painful, pain, welfare, health related and what can we do to monitor. So we'll talk some about your research as you go through. Before we get into those topics, I wanted to kind of share with you guys. I've had what I think is really good business idea and I wanted to get some feedback and see if you guys had any other business ideas. The product is called glitter litter, so cat litter, but it's basically glitter. So that way you can tell if it's out of the box or where it is. Kind of fancy it up a little bit. That seems like a really good idea. I wanted to know if you guys had any ideas as good as glitter litter.
- [01:56]
B
I pretty sure I don't have anything that's nearly that good. I'm sure you'll get lots of investors.
- [02:01]
A
Yeah, I probably people are going to call and, and start investing. Do you have a side business?
- [02:05]
C
Let's see, let's see.
- [02:06]
B
It caught me off guard, but I, I want to come up with some business idea where I need to buy a drone and can at least you Know, convince my wife that it's not just for.
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A
It's a business.
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B
It's a business expense. So it would be something to do with a drone that would allow me to get a really nice one.
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F
Real estate, photography or a drone.
- [02:27]
B
There you go.
- [02:28]
A
She's got a good idea. You got a side business?
- [02:30]
F
Yeah, I've always thought so. We do a lot of camping in our coolers. It doesn't matter. They get mud on them and you can't ever get it cleaned off. So a cooler bleaching and cleaning service that I don't actually have to be the one that does it. That I can have somebody else.
- [02:41]
A
You can have somebody else clean your coolers.
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F
I also have three daughters, so my house is basically glitter litter.
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A
You already got glitter litter at your.
- [02:48]
D
House, Dustin, I do not have any ideas.
- [02:52]
E
My best idea will be marketing your product. Product in Brazil.
- [02:56]
A
Yeah, the glitter litter. You think it's a keeper?
- [02:58]
E
Yeah, we can do that.
- [02:59]
A
Yeah. So, Philip, are you in on glitter litter?
- [03:02]
C
I don't have cats.
- [03:04]
A
Well, you don't have to have cats to get it. Why do I need it? I don't. I don't know why you. You don't have to have cats to buy it.
- [03:11]
C
No, I. I think I'll pass. All right.
- [03:13]
D
You realize now there's going to be a glitter litter. Probably hit the markets in about two weeks.
- [03:17]
B
Yeah, I.
- [03:18]
A
Available with a name like that. You just get a name like that, then you figure out the product later. Is. Is kind of my plan, which is why I don't have good business success.
- [03:26]
B
Maybe.
- [03:27]
A
Maybe that could be possible. So, Jordana, let's talk about your research, what you've done. And you've worked with Dr. Bortaluzzi, who works with us here at BCI and really kind of a unique pathway in trying to evaluate not just the amount of consumption or quantity, but the rate of consumption. And you're using. And you've got a system that you call brokey. So tell us what brokey stand.
- [03:49]
E
So brocchi stands for bovine rate of consumption index, which means that we are kind of measuring the velocity in which the animals are eating, measured in kilograms by minute, in this case.
- [04:04]
A
And so the thought process behind that is animals that eat more rapidly are doing better than animals that eat less rapidly.
- [04:13]
E
So actually, some of our preliminary data showed that some animals injured that had a leg injury, they. At the first days, they ate more quickly and in lower visits at Bunk, like when they are kind of coping. But then some days later, they reduce this velocity when they are not coping any longer. So mainly it's like you said, they try to cope first, but then they slow down a little bit and go less times to the bunk.
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A
I would have, I would have anticipated that they would eat slower. What would you guys think if they were injured? Slower and less.
- [04:52]
F
Less, not faster and more. But it makes sense now you think about it, they don't want to be standing there as long. It's probably a painful thing. And so they're just trying to faster and less to protect themselves a little.
- [05:01]
B
Bit, I do think, you know, so I think one of the things that Jordana and her team has been looking at is cattle hide pain pretty well. They're pretty stoic. And so sometimes you have to be creative on how you pick it up. And I could, I could definitely see that pain or just illness would change how fast a calf eats. Again, it is kind of interesting. Would that mean faster so they get their meal done so they can go lay down or slower? Because I just don't feel like working too hard either way. It might be interesting as a way to kind of pick up some things because I can see whereas, you know, their overall behavior, they're trying to mask being ill, but when it comes to eating, they may actually show something. So it's an interesting area again. So one of my questions for Jordana is, I don't know, it would be maybe hard to measure how fast animal are eating more than just, you know, how much they eat in a day in a, in a real world setting. But do you see this more as a research method to look at different pain and illness indicators? Or do you think we could possibly use this in the future on a commercial scale?
- [06:09]
E
So now what we are doing is validate this for research purpose. Because, for example, our last or first trial, what we did was castrate these animals and also delivery some analgesia to some of the groups and then compare those and see how fast they they eat. So we're gonna, we. One of the aims is to validate this, this measure to this tool to measure pain, animal welfare and also health. But then this after validated, this can be something that the farmers can use to make some strategies about both pain, health, thermal stress and things like this. So right now it's more research setting, but it can be extrapolated in the future for farmers, which is a little.
- [07:00]
A
Bit different than typically. Philip. When we do trials where we're evaluating performance or efficiency, our typical measures would be average daily gain, total daily consumption, and then potentially a feed to gain ratio. Nothing I'm aware of has looked at rate of consumption before.
- [07:18]
C
Um, well, so we've looked at it not in relation to health as much. Well, maybe some. So I mean some research has looked at feeding behaviors in relation to BRD and seeing changes in feeding behaviors, you know, three to six days or so before you can see clinical signs of brd. So some stuff like that where we've.
- [07:41]
B
Looked at health, but that would, that.
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A
Would be intake, not, not rate of consumption intake.
- [07:46]
C
Well, it's. Well, it's not necessarily some of its intake, but it's not necessari intake as it is some of it is. Well, how many times do they come to the bunk? How, how long do they stay at the bunk? And so some of those things will drop off as well. And so I don't, I'm, I can't remember exactly whether rate of intake has been one of the key factors related to that. But there's been some stuff with even machine learning and using all kinds of parameters of feeding behavior to try to identify or predict cattle that are coming down or breaking with brd, however many days prior to clinical signs. And so this idea is, is new and novel from an idea of pain, but it has been used a little bit in some health as a way of predicting health early on that we can't see from visual observation.
- [08:41]
A
Yeah. The novelty of what Jordana has done to what I'm aware of, at least from the previous work, is she's actually measuring that rate. So not just bouts and not just intake or disappearance, but measuring the rate throughout the whole period, which takes some in depth monitoring. And basically how fast are they eating whatever they ate? And then you could tie that back to total consumption. How variable is the rate of consumption among cattle? Do they all typically eat at about the same rate or do you see it's all over the board.
- [09:09]
E
So average is going to be 0.1k per minute. But sometimes like looking at the, the last group we studied, sometimes it can be all over the place, like from 0.02 to 1.6 1.8. So different animals. Of course, not the same animal, but different animals can do different. They can have different measures by day.
- [09:36]
A
So, so Scott, help, help me with metric. 0.1 kilogram per minute is what it's.
- [09:40]
F
100 grams, 30 grams to an ounce, a little over 3 ounces.
- [09:44]
B
There you go. So you're looking at, you know, like 3 ounces per minute versus almost, almost a pound per minute. And if I think about some of the people that I had dinner with sometimes I think I see that kind of difference in. In humans.
- [09:57]
A
I mean there's some thoughts to especially in people. The. The rapidity at which you eat leads to how quickly you feel satiated from that meal. So if you eat very fast you may not feel it does it takes a while to catch up. We would probably like cattle that would consume rapidly would probably be a beneficial trait. And if there's variance in people and there's variance in cattle you'd have to assume there's more to it than just environment. Probably some genetic traits there really it would be interesting how important that is in the grand scheme of things. But we haven't really been able to measure it other than some of the bouts and the disappearance. But I haven't seen anybody look at it in as in depth as.
- [10:36]
B
So have you looked at it as. Do you keep track of an individual animal so you can compare them to themselves in the past Are you really comparing them to the other animals in the group? When you say an animal has either higher or lower speed of.
- [10:49]
E
Of feed intake in this case it is within group. But if you want to look at the path we can since our, our trial is 63 days long, we could kind of look back and compare if you want.
- [11:04]
A
Yeah, I think it'll be interesting. We'll look forward to seeing the results of that trial and I appreciate you sharing it with us. I'd also like to talk about monitoring health and well being in pasture scenarios and what are the different mechanisms that we can use to monitor that because I know I'm actually Dustin, I'm going to start with you. As we think about some of the implications of not identifying it early are we have more illness, we have more preventative health costs, we have more treatment costs. What do you see from your perspective as you think about monitoring health and pastures and how much I can spend on that? That's a great question.
- [11:42]
D
You kind of caught me off guard here. Well, I guess if, if you aren't monitoring close animals get sick right Then I mean there's. There's trade offs you got to think through is how often, how much time do I invest monitoring those animals and because there's cost associated with that.
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A
Right.
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D
There's a labor and time and maybe driving back and forth between pastures or whatnot versus and maybe you're able to ca catch them illness early those preventative costs.
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A
Right.
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D
Or you don't spend the time in monitoring. I mean they get really sick and or die.
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A
So there's it.
- [12:14]
D
I guess it's Hard to say. It's just that there's a trade off though. You got to think through all the different costs associated with that along with kind of the probabilities.
- [12:22]
A
Well, exactly. So cost benefit, if I have lower risk animals versus higher risk animals. And when I say cattle on pasture, it could mean adult cows or it could mean stalker calves that just arrived, which I'd want to spend a different amount of time monitoring those groups. Philip, when you think about what. What are some of the things you think about when you think about monitoring health of animals on a pasture, what would you look at?
- [12:47]
C
So one of the things that pops into my mind and you're talking about frequency here as if you're using a more intensive grazing management system. Then you're going to observe those animals more often because you're going to move them from pasture to pasture, paddock to paddock, or however your system is set up, you're going to observe them maybe not every day, but much more frequently than in like a continuous system where the cattle have access to the whole pasture. They may be way at the back part of the pasture when you go out there to deliver more mineral or whatever. And so you don't see them for lots of days. So I think that there's a benefit from an animal health perspective, I think even from implementing a more intensive grazing.
- [13:31]
A
Management, tying it to your workflow. So if I can tie it to my workflow. Jordana, what's your perspective?
- [13:37]
E
So one of the things I would say is that also every time depends how the management is set up. But if you can keep close to you, I would say the animals that has the higher chance to be sick for any reason, be close to your home all day and then you can have a closer look or more often see those, those herds like heifers for ready to calf or animals that had any surgeries or weaning animals, this type of things. So this maybe could be something that could help to increase this. This management. How often I would look at them.
- [14:22]
A
Excellent. So costs. Think about the cost benefit. Think about how I fit it into my operational flow and arrange things so it makes it convenient for me. You guys are all speaking to the things that make sense to me because it makes it easier. Scott, you have anything to add?
- [14:36]
F
No, I just maybe that your baseline expectation of issues is going to change, especially if you identify a problem and all that goes out the window. So I think everything everybody else said is probably a good place to start.
- [14:47]
A
So they're a good place to plan. But what I'm hearing you say is be prepared to change your plan. You can't. When you're monitoring animal health, you cannot set it in stone. And if I have something come up, I got to be willing to modify that plan, which I know Bob, you loved modifying a good plan.
- [15:01]
B
Oh yeah. So I, I'm even thinking about what Jordana was talking about earlier when with the, the rate of feed disappearance. Well, that's something you can monitor in a dry lot situation. You know, number of times they come to the bunk, how long they spend there. Well, in pastures it's pretty darn different. At least in a, in a dry lot, once or twice a day I'm going to deliver feed and I would expect the animals to get up and respond to that. And animals that don't, I might take, take special notice of. So I think you have to kind of think about that from a pasture situation in that you may want to, you know, if you're on horseback, actually get the cattle up or if you ride out on a four wheeler, get off your four wheeler. And, and actually, and again, I'm looking for issues of lameness or illness such that they don't feel like getting up and then kind of what cattle look like when they first get up, how they stretch, you know, do they immediately start to graze? Are young animals kind of showing some play behavior. And so by knowing what normal is when I go and get cattle up, I'm really looking for animals that don't act like that. So. And Jordan I know looks a lot at animal behavior. So what are some of the things that you might look for if an animal wasn't feeling good on pasture?
- [16:08]
E
So yeah, if you were in a horseback I would say that first try to see the whole herd before you kind of interfere on them and then see if someone is doing something different or abnormal like we would say and then try to walk them and then I'll second something that we used to say in Brazil is that when we move cattle you need to have a closer look to the animals to stay kind of behind. So just look closer at him them and see if there is nothing wrong in differentiate between normal and abnormal.
- [16:46]
A
Abnormal, absolutely. Spend some time watching some normals. We appreciate you joining us. Thanks Jordana for sharing with us about your research.
- [16:54]
E
Thank you so much.
- [16:55]
A
Screw worms have been a topic of discussion throughout the industry and especially the implications relative to trade and other areas. And we wanted to have Dr. Brian Heron, who's a parasitologist, in with us today to, to visit a little bit about it. So, Brian, I'm just going to have you open up and tell us what are screw worms? And when we talk about them, what do we see?
- [17:14]
G
Yeah, screw worms.
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A
They're.
- [17:16]
G
The adult is just a fly.
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A
Right.
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G
And it's a fly that was historically endemic to the United States. We spent a lot of time and money to eradicate it and get it south of kind of Panama. And we're not concerned about the fly. What we're concerned about is the larval stage or the maggot. The maggot, unlike maybe maggots you've seen on animals that are in open, dead wounds, these maggots feed on living, live flesh. And so they can just go through and eat through a body, creating bigger.
- [17:48]
A
And bigger wounds, which is very unusual because the other maggots, it's. It's. You gotta have an open wound, you gotta have a dead tissue.
- [17:56]
G
Yeah, this is why we specifically talk about this one. This, you know, the. The primary screwworm versus many of the others. We call them secondary invaders. And they come in their wounds already there, they're debriding it, they're eating dead flesh, and they're not doing great things in there, but they're not actively making the situation way, way worse.
- [18:13]
A
So, Dustin, this has been a hot topic because of all the trade implications that we've seen because of this. What are. What's your take?
- [18:20]
D
So I think back in What November of 2024 is, when it first we stopped imports, and then we worked through some things and we opened markets back up in February of 25, and then recently, I think early May, early mid May, we stopped imports again. And the reason this has some serious implications because we import, I believe, about 1.2 to 1.3 million calves from Mexico each year. And, you know, we're already in a tight supply right now. And so if we're having fewer calves, we're going to see fewer animals going through feed yards being processed, and so, you know, put upward pressure on prices because it.
- [18:58]
A
It doesn't sound like this problem is going away anytime soon, or is it, Brian?
- [19:03]
G
Yeah, the. The efforts that were put together, it was a really interesting program where they released sterile male flies, and they basically would trick the females and into mating with them, and then no eggs would be made. And so they got rid of the fly and they were able to keep them down in Panama because there was a really narrow gap that they could just release the flies and control the population there. And it got difficult for it to move northward once it broke that gap and it moved Up Central America and into Mexico. Now it's going to be more difficult. It's going to be a really concerted effort, similar to how we eradicated it. And we're thinking about. There was a small introduction of this fly into Florida. It got into a few deer and a few animals. And just that little focal introduction cost about $1.5 million to control at a local level. So we're talking about a massive time and money effort that would be needed if it were to be introduced into the United States. And we need to move it and eradicate it again.
- [20:02]
B
One of the interesting things about this fly as a parasitologist is a couple of things that make it somewhat unique is the female only mates once. So, you know, that's different than other parasites, which opens the door for the control of. Somebody was really creative when they came up with the idea they just irradiate these male flies. It doesn't kill them, but it makes them sterile. So you turn out a bunch of sterile male flies. The females only mate one time and then there's no offspring.
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A
And that was in the 60s.
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B
That was in the sick, you know, 60s. And you know, so think Florida, Texas, the southern part of the United States. This was a huge effort. You know, cattlemen, state departments of AG, the U.S. department of AG. Everybody really spent a lot of time and a lot of money to push this. And then we worked with partners in Mexico and Central America to keep pushing it farther and farther south. And yeah, kind of once we got it below the Darien Gap, there was a pinch point there. And it's. And we were spoiled for a long time. That really worked great. But yeah, we may need. The good thing is we have the knowledge, some of that infrastructure. Of course, if you don't need it, it goes away. And so we may have to rebuild some infrastructure. How hard is it to raise these sterile male flies?
- [21:13]
G
You know, probably not that hard. Again, it takes the facilities and people to. To do that. We have new kind of sterilizing techniques. We have new kind of molecular mechanisms that we could try out for how we control other insects. And so maybe we don't even have to go back to the radiation. It just would take a focused to.
- [21:34]
B
Actually reach that back up again.
- [21:36]
A
That happened. What you gotta do. I just pictured Bob there doing some fly castration. Fly.
- [21:41]
B
Fly at a time.
- [21:42]
A
That'll keep you busy for a long time. That's kind of ethereal project.
- [21:45]
B
It is, yeah.
- [21:46]
A
Yeah. The opposite.
- [21:47]
F
Three bucks a pop.
- [21:49]
A
Three bucks supply. So, Brian, when we think about this disease and moving forward, what you mentioned that they will feed on live tissue. What does this fly? Does it look like a house fly? Does it look like a horn fly? What is, what is the appearance of this fly? And would we notice it visibly and what would be the signs we would see in a herd?
- [22:10]
G
So for the adult fly, it looks like a fly, a house fly. It is kind of a metallic color. But we want to be very careful in saying there's a lot of those out there as well.
- [22:20]
A
So, so, so you can't tell just by looking. Don't think, oh, I've got one of these flies.
- [22:24]
G
Y so can't really tell. The adult fly, the larvae, the maggots, they just look like fly maggots. And so can't really tell those. There are some ways to ID them, but best done by contacting your USDA person, sending those in for a good accurate identification. When we're looking at the kind of what would make you think this is something different? Lots of maggots. And that can happen in open wounds. You're trying to decide if you think the wound happened first and the maggots came in because of that or if they're causing it. And one of the big things is they kind of deeply penetrate down. And so if it looks like they're, they're burrowing rather than just like staying superficially into the wound. And that may be difficult if there's a deep penetrating wound. But you know, if there's large numbers of maggots and you have a concern, I think it's worth contacting your USDA person, sending those in for identification. Again, we're in the kind of be cautious at this point situation and obviously haven't seen any in the US Mainly in southern Mexico, but everyone's kind of on alert because we don't want to be the person who accidentally lets it in.
- [23:36]
A
It makes, it makes sense to be villagent but not overreactive. And, and I think it's we're going to see maggots this summer throughout the country. You just have to be villagent of what does that look like. And most time, as you say, they're superficial, they're feeding on dead necrotic. And if in question, contact your USDA person, contact your university parasitologist, they'll be in touch. Get the right people on board to get it figured out. We appreciate you coming in and sharing with us, Brian, and as always, if you have questions, comments or any feedback for us, you can send us an email at bcisu Edu.