Research Update, New Grad Opportunities, New Products: How to Evaluate

Summary

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Cattle Chat – Episode Summary

Podcast: BCI Cattle Chat
Episode: Research Update, New Grad Opportunities, New Products: How to Evaluate
Date: October 24, 2025
Host: Brad White
Guests: Dr. McKenna Jensen, Bob, Phillip

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on three main topics:

• A discussion of Dr. McKenna Jensen's research into cattle heart pathology at harvest.
• Insights and advice regarding opportunities and challenges for new veterinary graduates entering rural communities.
• Practical advice for evaluating and deciding whether to adopt new products in cattle operations.

The show features a friendly, conversational tone with practical takeaways and personal anecdotes throughout.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. McKenna Jensen’s Research Update on Cattle Heart Health

Project Background

• Dr. Jensen, about to enter veterinary practice, discusses her master's research focused on cattle heart and organ health at harvest.
• Study involved scoring the hearts of cattle at harvest (scoring system 1-5; 1-2 normal, 3-5 abnormal). Samples of heart, lung, and liver tissues were collected for histopathology.

Major Findings

• Low Incidence of Damage: Surprisingly, grossly abnormal ("big") hearts did not necessarily exhibit microscopic fibrosis (scarring) or necrosis (active tissue death).
  • Only 5 out of 98 cases had fibrosis; 3 out of 98 had necrosis.
  • [05:13] Dr. Jensen: “We didn't see a lot of [necrosis or fibrosis]. We only had five out of the 98 cases that had fibrosis, and then three out of those 98 cases had necrosis in their heart.”
• Parasite Discovery: High prevalence of the parasite sarcocyst (a protozoa similar to Toxoplasma) found in heart tissue.
  • 85 out of 98 cattle had sarcocyst in at least one heart sample; 74 had it in all four samples.
  • [06:56] Dr. Jensen: “85 out of our 98 cases had sarcocystis within at least one heart sample, and 74 of those cases had it in all four of those heart samples.”
  • Typically considered incidental, its frequent presence, particularly in abnormal hearts, was unexpected.
• Implications:
  • Raises new questions about the significance of subclinical heart pathology and parasite load in cattle that make it to harvest.
  • [08:27] Bob: “What may be happening is that there’s some structural changes to the heart, but it takes a long time for problems under the microscope to show up…this is another area where we just don't know what exactly to completely conclude by some of the findings.”
  • Gross heart lesions have been linked to decreased performance and sometimes carcass condemnation.

Discussion Takeaways

• The findings prompt a need for further research rather than immediate practice changes.
• Bob’s perspective: Sometimes what appears normal at slaughter may mask complex subclinical issues.

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2. New Graduates Entering Rural Practice: Opportunities and Challenges

Excitement for New Roles

• Dr. Jensen shares her anticipation about launching into clinical practice, making connections with clients, and being active in the community.
  • [11:27] Dr. Jensen: “I’m really most excited about just jumping head in and getting into that clinical practice aspect of things…make connections with clients.”

Recognized Challenges

• Social challenges cited: leaving established support networks, integrating into a new town, forming friendships, and establishing new hobbies.
  • [11:52] Dr. Jensen: “Definitely some of the challenges are going to be finding new hobbies, you know, finding friends. You're leaving everything you've known…”

Stories & Advice

• Bob’s Anecdote: Pulling up to a new town knowing no one, his wife’s outgoing approach to making friends, and the importance of building a community outside the workplace.
  • [13:22] Bob: “We actually, you know, we enjoyed our job…But if you're a transplant, if you're in from another area, another state, you got to kind of break into that.”
• Community Integration:
  • Attending local churches and volunteering are highlighted as practical ways to meet people and ease the transition.
    • [15:36] Phillip: “We tended to make friends and get to know people through church.”
  • Importance of support from employers to help new hires integrate outside of work.
    • [15:48] Brad: “If you're the boss and you're hiring somebody to come in, figure out ways that…How can I help them integrate with this community?”

Retention Emphasis

• Retention is closely tied to integration, not just job fit.
  • [14:20] Brad: “Anybody that's hiring a young person into ag, remember, that's not their entire life.”
  • [14:24] Bob: “And the job could be good. But if it's lonely at home…”

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3. How to Evaluate New Products for Cattle Operations

Scenario: The Promise of "Purple Power"

• Host presents a hypothetical new product, "Purple Power," promising weight gain with one injection.

Evaluative Approaches

• Dr. Jensen’s Approach:

  • Emphasizes skepticism; would demand supporting research and regulatory status before considering use.
  • [16:46] Dr. Jensen: “…Always ask questions and never blindly trust anything… I would need to see some research to back it up.”
  • [17:16] Dr. Jensen: “I'd need to see what are the adverse effects, you know, what is this product going to do to my clients’ cattle?”

• Host and Bob’s Perspective:

  • Regulatory approval and safety data are crucial first steps.
  • Skepticism is healthy, given past products that failed to deliver or presented problems.
  • [19:31] Bob: “An optimistic skeptic. I know that most products don't really live up to the original hype, but some do.”

• Phillip’s Structured Framework:

  • Referenced University of Illinois "4 Rs": Response, Return, Research, and Field Response.
    • Anticipated response – expected benefit.
    • Economic return – cost-benefit.
    • Available research – validity/consistency of results.
    • Field responses – is it working under real-world conditions?
    • [22:00] Phillip: “Response, return, research and field responses.”
  • Field evidence and repeatability in different environments are important.

Consensus & Elder Wisdom

• New products should be approached with “optimistic skepticism.”
• Substantial and replicated research, clarity on safety, and practical field experience are all necessary for adoption.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Research Surprises:
  • Dr. Jensen (04:43): “When we looked in the histopath of these hearts, we didn’t see a lot of that…”
  • Bob (07:17): “Bodies, human bodies, cattle bodies. They're pretty complicated…so we know, we've known for years that, yeah, these parasites can be in the muscle...Traditionally, we've said, they don't seem to be causing big problems.”
• On New Communities:
  • Dr. Jensen (11:52): “Definitely some of the challenges are going to be finding new hobbies, you know, finding friends…”
  • Bob (13:22): “If you're a transplant, if you're in from another area, another state, you got to kind of break into that.”
• On Evaluating New Products:
  • Dr. Jensen (16:46): “…Always ask questions and never blindly trust anything.”
  • Bob (19:34): “An optimistic skeptic. I know that most products don't really live up to the original hype, but some do.”
  • Phillip (22:00): “Response, return, research and field responses.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:05 – 10:16: Dr. Jensen’s research project background, methodology, and key findings
• 10:16 – 11:27: Rationale for studying subclinical heart lesions
• 11:27 – 15:47: Transitioning to practice—challenges, excitement, and advice for new grads
• 15:47 – 22:10: Strategies for evaluating new cattle products, structured frameworks, and lessons learned

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Overall Tone

• Friendly, practical, and supportively skeptical; blending good-natured personal stories with actionable advice.
• Conversation stays accessible, inquisitive, and applicable to professionals and newcomers alike.

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Final Takeaways

• Current research calls old assumptions into question and demonstrates the complexity of cattle health.
• Personal connections, mentorship, and supportive communities are central to successful, lasting veterinary careers.
• Cattle producers and veterinarians alike should stay curious, skeptical, and evidence-driven when reviewing novel products, employing a blend of regulatory data, field evidence, and judicious optimism.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, welcome to BCI Cattle Chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us and happy to have our crew here in the studio. Good morning, Bob.

[B]

Good morning, Phillip.

[C]

Good morning, guys.

[A]

And our guest today is Dr. McKenna Jensen. Morning, McKenna.

[D]

Good morning.

[A]

McKenna is finishing up her master's program here, and she finished up her veterinary degree, and we're happy to have her with us. She's going to talk a little bit about her research before she embarks off into veterinary practice. And we'll also talk a little bit about opportunities for new professionals coming to communities as we talk through today. And we'll discuss as we wrap up how to evaluate a new product. How do I decide if this is something I should use or not use? Before we get into those topics, I wanted to remind you, if you have a listener question for us, we always appreciate getting those. You can email [e-mail] or reach out to us on social media before we talk about our topics today. Guys, I wanted to tell you we were cleaning out one of our storage rooms at the house. The kids are gone, so making a little bit of room. And I found, well, actually in the trash that my wife had put out.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

But I found Lando Calrissian, the little plastic figure from Star wars, the little action figure. And I was telling somebody, and they're like, well, he may be worth money because he was the original that I had when I was a kid. He's a little worse for the wear at this point. I don't think he'd be worth money. But if you could go back and find a what toy from your youth do you think would be worth big bucks today if you had it in mint condition? And I've already got the corner on Star wars action figures.

[B]

You may not remember the thingmaker. It was like a little hot plate with molds, and you poured liquid plastic into it, and then you heat it up. So you had this, like, hot plate in your child's room? Yeah.

[A]

With no chips and plastic?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Molten plastic.

[B]

With molded plastic. And you'd make the coolest stuff. I mean, you make little spiders, you make little figures. And so it was fun to make the stuff. It was fun to try not to burn down the house. And then once you had the little toys, it was toys. So I would bring that back in a heartbeat.

[A]

Yeah, we had a thing one time. You make your own crayons, which was kind of the same thing.

[B]

You're melting something up. Yeah.

[C]

I'm trying to remember or think of something that would Be like unique. And I mean we played outdoors a lot. I'm trying to remember stuff that we did inside. I don't know, we had some action figures. We had. I mean, when I was growing up, he man was the big cartoon thing for little boys. And we had several of the he man action figures and stuff like that.

[A]

And my brother had the he man action figures. They were pretty cool.

[B]

The G.I.

[A]

Joe or G.I.

[B]

Joe with kung fu grip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's good stuff, McKenna.

[D]

When I was little, I had a Swan Lake Barbie. I also had a couple Christmas collection Barbies. So those might be worth something today.

[A]

Yeah, see you brought something totally different. Cause these guys didn't say anything about their Barbies.

[B]

I got mine.

[A]

I know they had them.

[C]

I'm one of three boys, there were no Barbies in our house.

[A]

So. Excellent. Well, let's talk a little bit about your research, McKenna. So as I mentioned, you graduated from veterinary school. While you were in veterinary school, you did a couple projects with us where you did some necropsies looking at the feed yard, developed an interest in some of the pathology that we see. And you followed that up by your most recent project where you looked at some cattle health things at harvest. So cattle that made it all the way through. Tell us a little bit about broad overview of your project.

[D]

Yeah, so my project, we took heart scores of cattle and then grouped them into normal being heart scores, ones and twos and abnormal. We took heart scores, threes, fours and fives. So we took cattle from each of those and then we collected four heart samples, four lung samples and liver samples and sent them off for histopathology. So I've been kind of diving into that, looking at fibrosis in the heart, fibrosis in the liver, necrosis of both of those things. And then we also surprisingly found a lot of sarcocyst within those hearts.

[A]

Okay, so a lot of stuff there to unpack. So you looked at a population of cattle that made it all the way through the feeding phase, went to harvest, and then in the packing plant you had a. There was a team that went in and they collected some abnormal heart abnormal looking hearts and normal looking hearts. And then you looked at the histopathology, which tells us a little bit about what's going on inside. And let's talk about that first. And I'm going to come back and ask you about the sarcosyst. But what did you find in those abnormal looking hearts when we just visually evaluated them, how did they look when we looked under the microscope?

[D]

Yeah, so the Idea of these hearts that were abnormal is that we would have necrosis of those hearts from pulmonary hypertension, causing them to get bigger and then causing necrosis and damage to those cells, which then would eventually lead to fibrosis replacing those cells. When we looked in the histopath of these hearts, we didn't see a lot of that. We only had five out of the 98 cases that had fibrosis, and then three out of those 98 cases had necrosis in their heart.

[A]

Yeah. So fibrosis would be like scarring.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And necrosis would be like an active lesion.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And it was very rare, even though the hearts looked big and abnormal. But you did find some of those same changes in the livers, correct?

[D]

Surprisingly, no. We found a few livers with fibrosis and necrosis, but again, a very small amount of our case population.

[A]

Yeah. Because if the heart is not working well, you'll have some feedback to the. To the liver. And you did see some of those livers that were abnormal were associated with some of our bad hearts. So tell me. Tell me a little bit about the other thing that you found. Was you found something that's called sarcocyst. And maybe I'll. I'll ask. Tell us a little bit about what is sarcocyst.

[D]

Sure. So sarcocyst are a parasite, they're a protozoa, and they're similar to toxoplasma or Neospor. So they have a two host life cycle. There's several species within cattle that have different hosts, but one of the most common is Sarcocystis cruci. Which one of the host is canids.

[A]

Yeah. So dogs. And it's basically a protozoa. And we see other protozoa that may end up in cattle. And as it's been reported, no typical clinical signs or anything. And with this type of research, we can't say, did it cause any problems. We can only say it was there, and it was actually there a little more frequently in cattle that had big hearts. So it could be kind of the chicken and the egg. Right. We don't know if it came first and then the big heart came later, or if the big heart came first and because it was damaged, you saw more of those. But that was a little bit of a surprising finding.

[D]

Yes, it was. Sarcocystis has been often described as an incidental finding in harvest cattle. So we weren't expecting to see as many as we did. But 85 out of our 98 cases had sarcocystis within at least one heart sample, and 74 of those cases had it in all four of those heart samples.

[A]

Bob, surprising to you?

[B]

Yeah. That is surprising. Well, yes, it is surprising. And maybe this is what might be surprising to a lot of our listeners is bodies, human bodies, cattle bodies. They're pretty complicated. And we do live in the real world with parasites and bacteria and viruses. So we're not sterile, and neither are the cattle. And so we know, we've known for years that, yeah, these parasites can be in the muscle. And traditionally, we've said. And they don't seem to be causing big problems. You know, that that's kind of just evolved with the cattle. They, they infect cattle, but they don't cause a lot of damage is what we've always said. And I'm not ready to get rid of that idea that they're just there and they're. They're not a big deal. But McKenna's research says maybe we should take another look at these organisms. Yeah.

[A]

And the way that research is structured, that's the main conclusion.

[B]

We should maybe we should maybe look at it again.

[A]

The other thing that I thought was a little bit surprising, and she shared this one. There are cattle that make it all the way through to harvest and have a grossly misshapen or big heart that may not be working as well. But the interesting part of her finding was we didn't see a lot of damage when we look under the microscope.

[B]

You. Yeah. And I don't know what to make of that. We've talked to some of the cardiologists here a little bit, and you get a little bit. Still kind of an unclear story in that what may be happening is that there's some structural changes to the heart, but it takes a long time for problems under the microscope to show up. So maybe it's just a structural difference and it's minor in its effect, or maybe it's the progression of the heart damage is very slow and for a long time it's, yeah, it's damaged, but you're not seeing the cellular changes. Again, this is another area where we just don't know what exactly to completely conclude by some of the findings.

[C]

So you looked at normal hearts and abnormal hearts at cattle that made it to slaughter. Right. And we're not seeing big differences in histology and things like that. So why are we interested? They made it to slaughter. Is there these. Did we know? Are these cattle underperforming while they're alive? Are we? I guess big basic questions. Why do we care what's the interest there?

[D]

Yeah. So the interest is mostly we haven't looked into this much other than it being incidental. Also, when you do see gross lesions at the slaughter plant called bovine eosinic myositis, they're like gray green lesions of the heart or diaphragm that can lead to carcass condemnation.

[A]

Yeah. And the heart scores themselves have been associated with. So you talked about scoring them as abnormal or normal. Those that score abnormal have been associated with decreased performance during the feeding phase. And we've talked a little bit in the past about congestive heart failure, which causes mortality prior and that one of our questions was is that kind of the tip of the iceberg?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Do we see some mortalities? But we have a lot of subclinical disease that's unidentified that make it to harvest? She didn't. Her project wasn't really set up to assess that, but we wanted to figure out of those cattle that made it, what type of lesions are we seeing? So I think great, great question and interesting research, McKenna, and we'll look forward to your follow up as you find out more information. And I know you're looking for, to see if you see those sarcocysts in other populations as well, something at this point that is good for us to kind of generate a what's next question, but doesn't actually solve the problem at this point. Now, I want to shift gears completely and I'm going to go Back to you, McKenna, and these guys will have some questions for you. But thinking about you're going to be leaving here in the spring, you're going to go out, you're going to start a new job in a community. And we have discussed from our perspective before about hiring a new professional or hiring somebody new to come into the community and start up in a new community to get engaged and form those relationships. I want to get your perspective on what do you see is that what are you most excited about in getting into your new job and new community?

[D]

So I'm really most excited about just jumping head in and getting into that clinical practice aspect of things, getting to be on the go and getting to see everyone and make connections with clients and things like that. So that's where I'm at at the moment.

[A]

What do you see as some of the big challenges or hurdles as you move into a new area?

[D]

Definitely some of the challenges are going to be finding new hobbies, you know, finding friends. You're leaving everything you've known, especially being in vet school for the past Four to eight years. So it can be challenging, just kind of moving and integrating into a new community like that.

[B]

Yeah. I can remember my wife and I moving to a new community. We moved to a small town with about 1500 people. And I remember pulling up in the U haul truck, you know, to the house we had rented. We didn't know a soul. I mean, we knew the guy that hired us. We knew the veterinary clinic we were going to. We didn't know a soul. And that was a little bit daunting. I mean, good thing is, my wife is very outgoing. And kind of a funny story is it wasn't too many weeks later, we're driving down the road and we see another young couple out for a walk that looked about our age. And she's like, pull over, pull over. We gotta go. We gotta go meet somebody. But the point of that story is we actually, you know, we enjoyed our job. We had, you know, good mentorship and those kinds of things from our job. But as, you know, young people in a community and, you know, the thing about a rural community is the people that grew up there and come back home, they've already got a friend group. But if you're a transplant, if you're in from another area, another state, you got to kind of break into that. And we did end up making friends with that couple that my wife, you know, pulled over. Yeah. And they were scared.

[A]

They're like, should we have a stalker or should we be friends?

[B]

We didn't actually pull over. But the good thing was they came into the vet clinic like, two or three weeks later, and my wife had remembered what they looked like and said.

[A]

Oh, we saw you.

[B]

And so it is an interesting about, again, having a young veterinarian or. I've. I've had this conversation with some of the guys from my community that are, you know, big farming and ranching operations. And they actually encourage their kids to not come home. You know, even if they want to come home to the farm, to not come home immediately after school and that they go out and get some skills, they meet some people. And then I've been talking to their parents about their kids sometimes struggle with being plopped into a new town. And they want to just come home where they know people and their parents are kind of pushing them out of the nest and saying, no, you have to make your own way in another town first. All of those are just about retention of veterinarians, Retention, getting young people into agriculture, and the importance of a community or friendships in that. In that retention.

[A]

Well, I think that's for anybody that talking about veterinarians, but anybody that's hiring a young person into ag, remember, that's not their entire life.

[B]

And the job could be good. But if it's lonely at home. Yes.

[A]

What do you do to get them integrated with the community? What are the opportunities? And that's what leads to kind of long term retention in that environment and being sure that we can get them to where we want them to.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I haven't been in a lot of small towns, except the one I grew up in, but moved. I've moved around a lot in my career. And I get it. I mean, you go to a new place and like you're the new person and everybody else knows everybody and you are kind of like sit there trying to figure it out on your own and. And one of the things that I guess just kind of happened. But we tended to make friends and get to know people through church. You know, we went, we'd find a local church and we started attending. And that's where we started to meet people our own age and find and make those friend groups and things like that. And so I think from a young person's perspective, finding ways to just get into being part of the community with going to church, volunteering at some other organization on weekends, or, you know, something where you can try to meet people outside of work.

[A]

And some. And sometimes I like that approach. Well, I like that approach better than driving, rolling down your window, yelling at people. But sometimes you have to have somebody invite you along.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It makes it easier. So if you're the boss and you're hiring somebody to come in, figure out ways that how can I help them not just get good at their job, but how can I help them integrate with this community? Because I want them here long term. We don't want the focus to be just on recruiting. It should be retaining people that come in. So I want to switch gears again and I want to talk to you guys and I'm going to present you with a scenario and I want to see how you'd like to evaluate it. So if I come to your operation and I've got a new product, it's called Purple Power and it is fantastic. You give one injection, the cattle are going to gain weight better. What kind of information would you want to decide if you want to use this product on your operation or not? And McKenna being the newest, I'm going to ask you because you're going to get this as a veterinarian. Someone's going to come to you and say, hey, I want to sell you some purple power. What do you want to know?

[D]

I think if my master's has taught me anything, it's to always ask questions and never blindly trust anything. So I would definitely need to look into it more. And you know, whether it's the product insert or talking to other professionals that have used it, I would need to see some research to back it up.

[A]

Okay, so if I told you, well, we've tried it and, and I'll give you 100 doses and you can just try it out on your own, does that increase your interest?

[D]

Not really. I'd be nervous. I'd need to see what are the adverse effects, you know, what is this product going to do to my clients cattle?

[A]

So I'd want to know. Safety and approval would be. One big thing is how is this approved? Because some products fall into a category where they're considered generally recognized as safe, in which case they may not have an FDA approval for a drug or a center for veterinary biologic approvals for a vaccine. Whereas if they have approval from a federal agency, the safety has already been tested. So you need to first understand which category am I looking in and is it safe? I like your approach there. First off, we're going to do no harm, Bob.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm going to come at it as the old guy in that over my career there have been a lot of products come on the market and some of them highly touted, really marketed pretty aggressively that really didn't stand the test of time. And there's a couple reasons for that. One is it's actually hard to come up with an idea that makes a big enough impact to cause changes in the way we do things. So a small impact may be real, but it's not a big enough change to change. Because a lot of times you don't change just one thing. A lot of times it changes the timing of other products, the timing of other management. It has the potential for some occasional side effects, those types of things. And so I'm a little bit jaded. But I'm also, again, sometimes one will hear about things that almost sound too good to be true. And the interesting thing is usually they are not true. But occasionally they are. I can remember early, early the ivermectins came out and it really sounded too good to be true compared to the previous dewormers we had. And this one stuck. This was good. Metaphylactic antibiotics, long term antibiotics, sounded too good to be true. And no, they, they really did what they were advertised to do. And so I have both an excitement about new products that can be really transformational, really great tools. And I'm also a little bit skeptical. There's. For every one of those successes, there have been a number of things that have come to market and gone away because the impact just wasn't great enough.

[A]

I like that. It's kind of as you described. It's an optimistic skeptic.

[B]

Yes, that's exactly right.

[A]

You're putting both those together.

[B]

An optimistic skeptic. I know that most products don't really live up to the original hype, but some do.

[A]

Yeah. So, Philip, I'll turn to you. What type of information do you want if you've got a new product? McKenna mentioned she's, she's concerned about safety. Bob says he's going to be optimistically skeptical. What do you want to see? Does it need to be a large scale trial? Can it, can it be a small pilot trial? Is anecdotal evidence enough? Where does that rank on your.

[C]

Well, so to specifically. I would say specifically answer your question then I've got some other thought. I think I want to see multiple research trials in different environments and see that product is repeatable or I want to be able to identify the specific situations and conditions where it does have a benefit and which ones where it doesn't. Those are things I want to, want to be able to say. And so I was looking up some stuff because I was trying to remember and so. And McKenna, I can't believe you didn't remember from nutrition class. We talked about this. All right. So it took me a minute to find and remember them all. I couldn't remember them all either, but four Rs for evaluating feed additives and whether they should be used on farm. And so they talk about, and this is an extension publication from the University of Illinois. And they talk about what's the anticipated response? How much, how much benefit am I going to get? What's the economic return? So it's a return on investment. So what's the available research say which we've been talking about? And then what are the field responses? So this is focus, this, this is particularly focused on dairy. But they talk about what, what are you seeing in your DHI records and things like that on farms that have tried it and seeing like that, what is it working in field conditions? So those are, those are four things they talk about in this extension pub to evaluate new products. And then they go on and they give some more specifics on, okay, whether this seems to be pretty consistent. This. They talk about different products fall into the category of is it pretty consistent response, Is it kind of. Well, try it out and see if it will work. If it seems to be giving benefit in your particular situation or is it experimental and what. This is still under research and it's not really recommended for general use yet.

[A]

So.

[C]

Response return, research and field responses.

[A]

Field response. So responses on the list twice.

[C]

Yeah, kind of.

[A]

Yeah, that's what confused me. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, so.

[A]

But that's a. That's a good way to look at any product that comes to you. The one I'd add is the one that McKenna brought up first is safety. Ensure that there's no detrimental effects within, whether it's a feed additive or an injectable as I described, or pour on or anything of that sort. And I think that's a good structured methodology because you will be confronted with new products. And I like Bob's approach of optimistic skepticism. So. Excellent. Appreciate you guys sharing with us today. And McKenna, thanks for spending a little bit of time with us. And as always, if you have questions or things you'd like us to talk about, you can send us an email at BCISU Ed.