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Cattle Chat
Summer Research and Herd Management: From Vitamin Stability to Confinement Strategies
00:25:45
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- [00:09]
A
Hi, welcome to BCI Cattle Chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us and happy to have our full crew here in the studio. Morning, Todd. Good morning, Bob.
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B
Good morning, everybody.
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A
Dustin.
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C
Good morning, Philip.
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D
Good morning, guys.
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A
And our guest today is Logan Thompson. Good morning, Logan.
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E
Good morning. Thanks for having me.
- [00:25]
A
We're happy to have you with us because it's always nice to have some of our other K State folks here. We'll talk a little bit about the research that we've this summer as well as address some Vitamin mineral listener questions that we've got. And we've also had some, some other good listener questions that we'll be able to jump into. But before we get into those, I wanted to ask you guys. It is summer. That's a lot of times when you get the new movie releases, new movies coming out. Do you remember when you were. Can you remember any movie when you were a kid that you were super excited was coming out in the summer? There was a lot of hype. I remember the, well, the Return of the jet, the Empire Strikes Back.
- [01:08]
B
There you go.
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A
The Empire Strikes Back was the movie that I was anticipating coming out. Do you guys have one that you were anticipating?
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B
Yeah, the first kind of summer blockbuster that I remember is Jaws. I mean it made a splash.
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E
Oh, yeah, there you go.
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A
You didn't even know this ahead of time?
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B
No, I got that one in there,
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A
Philip.
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D
You know, I try to remember. Oh my goodness. It would have been, I mean, growing up in the 90s, I don't know, I didn't go, I didn't go to movie theater a lot.
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B
Movie theater was a long way from where you lived.
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D
No, not really, but it just didn't go a lot. So I don't know, probably the 90s. Terminator would have been a big one.
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A
Terminator, yeah, that would have been a good one, Todd.
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F
I actually think it came out in the fall, but I remember my dad took us to see Jurassic Park.
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A
Oh yeah.
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F
And that was one of my favorite all time movie theater experiences. Seeing that in the theater for the first time.
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A
Yeah, it's hard to beat that.
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E
Logan, this is a little awkward. I'm not a big movie guy and don't go to movie theaters.
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A
Okay.
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E
I don't have.
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A
So no hype. No hype for you.
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E
Unfortunately not. Yeah.
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A
Dustin first.
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C
I think it was 80s, Phil, not the 90s. You were growing up.
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D
I started high school in 91.
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E
I guess I was thinking I'm a
- [02:30]
D
couple years older than you.
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C
Yeah, Well, I was thinking 80s myself. I guess what I was thinking now is but I didn't go to movies. I didn't go to movies growing up. So I didn't.
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A
Yeah, I just. We'll get you guys out. The new Toy Story is coming out this year. I'll take all of it.
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D
I did most of my movie binge watching when I moved out after college
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A
and was living by myself and had to kill some time and catch up on movies which, which I know none of you have a lot of time for watching movies this summer because there's a lot of different projects going and I think worthwhile to discuss and knowing that they're in progress, we don't have results but I always think it's interesting to get a peek behind the scenes and see what are some of the things that you're working on. Todd, I'm gonna start with you. What kind of projects are you working on this summer?
- [03:22]
F
So we've got a couple of surveys related to rural veterinary practice and things that help rural veterinarians be successful that we've completed and now we're in analysis and write up portion of those projects and that's been exciting to see some of the results that have come in from that. We also have a project where we compared some chute side computer assisted semen analysis systems or CASA systems to a high end bench top system on a large population of bulls this spring. And so we're in the process of analyzing that data right now and seeing how those newer less expensive shoot side systems compare to the higher end more expensive system. And then of course we've got our summer necropsy research that I'm involved with that is a lot of fun, a lot of work, but it's really exciting to see the students out every day doing necropsies on Kansas and Texas and Oklahoma and Colorado feedlots and getting all that data in has been really fun to be a part of.
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A
Yeah, that'll be really good information as well as I'm interested to see on your comparison of some of the semen evaluation systems on bulls. Logan, what about you?
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E
Yeah, so we have a busy summer until mid July and then our summer is largely done but we have a fourth project on a product produced by Altec called Agilen Supplementation Trial going on with stocker cattle. Seen really promising results in the first three and hopefully this one we get more dialed in on the performance aspect and then we're doing another continuation trial with limit feeding. We did a project last fall where we were able to limit feed cattle for a short period of time and maintain carcass quality. So we're trying to step that into a larger pen trial to see if those results hold true once we get more animal numbers.
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A
Yeah, and I think with both of your projects that you described, that's the nice thing about research. But sometimes the downside is we need to do it multiple times to make sure that it's working. And just as you said, to kind of get it dialed in. Philip, what about you?
- [05:30]
D
Got a couple of students finishing up some projects this summer related to beef, dairy, calves, gut health and liver abscess. And then Logan and Bob and I all have a project going on, we're just getting started, trying to look at optimal management systems for cow calf operations depending on the type of producer and what their goals and limitations are. So we're trying to do kind of a producer specific systems and find the optimum for them. And then I got a grazing education project that I'm part of that that's still ongoing. We're in the second year of that for here in the Flint Hills.
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A
Well, and on the optimal producers system, as you think about on the cow calf, it's so varied throughout the country and you guys are doing some modeling to evaluate not just the impact on the animals, but on the, the ground, the grass, how does it look and cow calf. So long term, how do you incorporate for the long term nature of whatever decisions I make this year impact next year and the year after?
- [06:39]
D
Yeah. So that's the beauty of our model is that we can simulate things over long term. We can simulate lots of different combinations of management practices and things like that to come up with a producer specific system where if we tried to do that with actual animals in the field, it would, the project would balloon to something that's unmanageable and take way too long. And so get a grad student sign
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A
up for 20 year program.
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D
Yeah. Yeah.
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A
All right, Bob.
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B
Yeah, we've got a lot of project. I really do enjoy the project that Logan and Philip, and Philip is leading that, that he just talked about. That's going to give us some good information. The other one that we're kind of working on is, you know, I think a lot of cattle producers are very well aware that cattle are prone to pneumonia, bovine respiratory disease, and oftentimes we have an image in our mind which is, you know, the classic pneumonia, but there's other lung diseases, one of which is called interstitial pneumonia. And it's kind of like emphysema in people. It's not exactly the Same, but kind of like that. And the struggling. The part that's kind of a struggle is there's not a clear infectious disease like a virus or a bacteria that's causing that. But we're not real cleared. Maybe some dust, maybe some dietary impacts. And so we've got a student that's working on looking at specifically some of the dietary impacts that might be helping to explain some of this interstitial pneumonia, kind of the emphysema type of pneumonia. And so that's been an interesting project. You know, the warning is this seems to be a tough disease to really get you a good finger on as far as what's actually causing it. So I don't know that we'll find a smoking gun that's always the cause. But what I'm hoping to find is a little more evidence of what some of the causes in some situations might be.
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A
Well, and I think good to approach it from several different avenues because that's been one that's been hard to track down. What are the inciting factors? And that project may provide us some new information, Dustin.
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C
Yeah, so we got a couple projects, Phillips leading one of them on grazing management plans, where I guess my specific role is working with students where we're taking some data that the producers provided us on kind of their. What they're doing with grazing management plans. And we combine that with Kansas Farm Management association data on the financials and some of the production aspects of these operations. So wrapping that up this summer, another project I'm working on with some folks here at the vet school where they've simulated foot and mouth disease outbreak with their different vaccination scenarios. And then from there they were working with some folks on engineering where they come up with kind of game theory decision on what was the best options. And so now what we're doing, myself in a postdoc over there is we're building an economic model to come in and evaluate what the economic impacts of the different vaccination strategies are.
- [09:40]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And you're one of your other students on the economic models is also working on the same disease that, that Bob mentioned, the interstitial pneumonia. How do we. How do we better predict that? Manage it? So lots of stuff going. You guys have have several good projects, which makes for a. Makes for a busy summer. I also wanted to address a couple listener questions that we've got. If you ever have a listener question for us, you can always send it to us at BCI ksu Edu. And the first question is on. And as Philip Pointed out to me they're not both vitamins. It's a. There's a question on vitamin and there's a question on mineral. The first part of it, vitamin A has been reported to degrade over time. So should I. Is that true one and is it okay if I buy my mineral in bulk or is that going to degrade over time with my vitamin A? What are some of the issues there that you're concerned about? Philip, I'll start with you and then I want to get Logan's thoughts on this.
- [10:44]
D
So yes, there's concern that vitamin A deteriorates over time when it's stored. We know that like in sun cured hay. So grass has a high level of beta carotene, green grass. And when in sun cured hay and as that hay is stored over the winter, the vitamin A activity in that hay decreases over time. And so that's why we're usually supplementing vitamin A in the wintertime when cows are on dried stored forages. And but there's concern and then we know that it happens over time in those mineral supplements as well. It's. It's not a very stable compound.
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A
Logan.
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E
Yeah, and piggybacking on Philip there a little bit, you know, with the cow calf aspect, because we provide supplements in the wintertime commonly. It's not a question I really think about all that much. You know, maybe don't buy it a year out if you're nervous about it, but we do think about it in confinement settings. And I recently had this come up with a consulting nutritionist. And one thing that, you know, we've learned over the last few weeks in discussions with him, you can chase the vitamin A, you know, stability concerns in your feedlots, but at the same time, are you just throwing money at a problem that's not really causing you any, any sort of economic or performance arms? Right. So I would say trust your nutritionist if you have one, trust your vitamin and mineral package that you provide and you're probably going to be okay at the end of the day.
- [12:20]
B
I think one of the things is possibly even the timing as these guys have mentioned, you know, green growing grass has plenty of vitamin A. So cows out on green grass, really it's not a concern. It's really when they're eating dormant forages, stored forages, those types of things where vitamin A could be a problem. So if you were going to buy in bulk, I think something like buying it at the beginning of the time that I'm worried about, such as in the fall, going into the winter, then you could probably buy a little bit more. I wouldn't buy in bulk in the spring because by the time I need it, it's been stored a long time. So it's not so much. Should you or should you not buy more than you need for a month? But what time of the year are we talking about?
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D
So there hasn't been a whole lot of research done or whole lot of data out there. But I did find one study from South Dakota State University and they looked at vitamin A levels in a ground corn mix, in a, in a typical mineral mix and in a pelleted cattle supplement. And the cattle supplement was actually the most stable over time. It didn't decrease a whole lot. They looked at this over a 24. The, the ground corn supplement also didn't decrease a whole lot over that time. But the mineral mix, just the plain mineral, over the 24 week period lost about 80% of the vitamin A activity. So that's a pretty large chunk. If you're storing feed for six, what would that be?
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B
Math?
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D
Six months.
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A
So certainly a concern if we're storing feed for that long a period of time. So you may not want to buy a year's worth. But remember in what you guys said, if we're out on grass, we're probably getting adequate supplementation and so that, and there's also some stores in the liver. So our concern time is as we get into mid to late winter usually and if we're, if we're going to have issues, that would be when it is on grazing cattle. Right. Confinement cattle a little bit different as Logan mentioned. But you want to spend the appropriate amount of worry to the type of problems that you're having, which I think was what Logan was saying. The follow up question to this was actually on magnesium and talking about supplementation a lot of times. And we discussed it this spring before you put out cattle on lush growing grass, you want to supplement magnesium and you're trying to avoid grass tetany or low magnesium levels in those animals. And the question was we've been a little bit dry this year and maybe haven't had the growth in grass that we want. From this listener, when do I need to stop and if I'm going to warm season grasses, do I also need to think about it there?
- [15:20]
B
Yeah, I think the type of forage is really important. This listener question says he's basically grazing native warm season grasses and that is a much, much lower risk for grass tetany compared to cool season grasses. Or if you were grazing Something like wheat or rye or something like that. And so, you know, whether it's even needed at all in warm season grass probably depends a little bit on, on timing of your calving and milk production and those types of things. But certainly much less of a concern. So it's, it is the problem of giving Brank blanket recommendations. So in general, yes, we recommend a high mag mineral in the spring, but really only for certain forage types and cows that are lactating. And those are the real high risk type individuals.
- [16:08]
A
Logan, as you, as you think about that is, are you, do you have a set time that you want to feed it and stop feeding it or do you manage that based on how the grass is growing? If we're on cool season grasses.
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E
Well, I'll go back real quick to Bob's point here. You know, if you're grazing recently burned pasture in the Flint Hills with cows with a young calf on their hip, you know, as they're moving into peak lactation, by all means provide some, you know, we provide Mac oxide. Right. It's not palatable. So put it in something that is. But once you get over six inches, I mean that's pretty conservative, you can really pull that supplement. So maybe a couple of weeks right before you really don't have that issue there. And then when you're going on to cool season, you already mentioned it, I think about supplementing it beforehand. Right. And then when, when they get out there on a cool season grass like a winter wheat, you know, keep your supplement out there a little bit that's not stored in the body so you will need to keep it out. Stocker cattle, which are commonly what you're going to graze, really aren't that that susceptible to grass dead?
- [17:12]
B
Once in a while you see a
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E
problem, but not very often. Yeah, it's fairly rare. And I always wonder, I'm not a veterinarian, I always wonder if there's something else going on with that animal that got it. But if you're calving and you have cows going out with a calf on their hip onto cool season annuals as well, by all means keep your supplement out there with them.
- [17:30]
A
Well, and I think you raised a good point relative to the calving often hypomagnesium magnesemia or low magnesium goes along with hypocalcemia or low calcium, which are both associated with what we're putting in the milk. So those cows that have just calved, little more susceptible to both those and those syndromes can overlap. The next listener question I'd like to address, and I think this is a good one. And I've actually heard this in a couple different forums, but this is from a listener that says, hey, I've got some experience feeding confined cattle on the dairy side. What about putting up a cow calf confinement barn? Because land is expensive. It's hard to graze cows on that land to support the number of calves. What if we kept them in a confined environment. Environment, fed them a total mixed ration and had them there all year. And Todd, I want to get your thoughts on this first.
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F
Well, I think the key there is we're coming at this the same way we would from a dairy operation. And you're talking about a different animal, you're talking about a different system. You will have different challenges and you may need a different type of animal to be successful in a confined cow calf operation. The, the biggest problem you're going to have is when you start calving in confinement like that, you're going to have an environment that's contaminated, that's. It's hard to keep clean. And that's going to be a challenge for those young calves and, and you know, dealing with scours, possibly some outbreaks of respiratory disease. That's going to be the thing you're fighting against.
- [19:02]
A
All of the things where we say dilution is the solution. We don't have those present there. Dustin, what are, what are your thoughts on a confined cow calf?
- [19:12]
C
Just thinking just about the, just the economics for a moment. I guess I want to think about the labor. I mean, how much additional labor is going to be required because you got probably bedding that you're changing pretty frequently. So I'd want to know about the labor and labor issue if. Is there labor availability. Also want to know about feed, maybe some of the feeding requirements. What is that going to look like? Again, you know, high percent of the variable costs are due to feeding. So I want to know more about that. Those are two things that come to mind real quick. But then I'd want to know other things. Like what? Are there any animal health issues that we got to be thinking about? What? Thinking about the costs associated with those. Ventilation. I mean, is that going to be a cost thing we got to think about? Again, I'm just thinking about all the different potential costs that come into play.
- [19:59]
A
Yeah. And one of the advantages of cows is they can graze areas that we have other species that can't go graze. Some of those areas, we can't necessarily grow crops on them. However, if you're in an Area where it's high row crop area land becomes very expensive, and it's hard to run cows in that area.
- [20:19]
F
A thought I've had on this one system that I've seen on the dairy side that I think might be fairly adaptable over to a beef side would be a composted bedding pack that would take care of a lot of your pathogen contamination problems if you did it right. Now, the problem with a composted bed pack is you have to do it right. There's very little margin for error. But if you can manage it correctly, and it requires having a tractor with a tiller that can turn over that bed pack regularly, you have to be able to haul in wood shavings, because that's an important component of the compost. But if you could manage that appropriately, you might be able to create an environment that is clean enough to successfully calve cows, beef cows out, and would also create, you know, enough of a comfort issue that those cows could be comfortable. And then, of course, you have a little bit of a side revenue of you have now produced compost.
- [21:16]
C
Yeah.
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A
Bonus. Logan, have you any experience with this?
- [21:19]
E
Yeah. And not too long ago, heard a talk from Dr. Schaake at university of Illinois, who's done some work on this. And I always think, you know, I spent a lot of my formative years in Northern Michigan in my 20s, and we're fairly confined up there. But we do take advantage of a grazing season. You know, a full 3, 365 in confinement. There's. There's a lot of costs. There's a lot of health concerns involved in it. I mean, maybe right now the feed cost isn't too bad relative to what cattle prices are bringing, but it would be a challenge to. To stay profitable in the long term. But if you were to do it around your calving window, it is manageable. Otherwise, people want to run cattle in Canada. Right. So if you think about it in that regard, it can be done. But at the same time, do you have the labor to do it and do it well and keep your animals healthy? That's the biggest challenge.
- [22:16]
A
Well, and I think great point is it's being strategic about when you have them out, and if I can have them out when they're calving and those calves are very small, that makes a big difference. The folks that I've talked to that have done this have struggled the most with the calving period, because that's when it's very, very difficult indoors. Philip, what about the nutritional side of this? Obviously, if we're bringing them everything that they have to eat. It's all going to have to be harvested forages or materials. Do you think it would be easier to calibrate the exact diet that the cows need? Because we can't on pasture. Right? Pasture's pasture.
- [22:53]
D
Yes you can. So there's been some research done looking at feeding cows in confinement and feeding. So limit feeding them more high energy diet than we typically would. And that actually reduces their maintenance requirements because you're actually reducing those organs that are highly metabolically active, the GI tract, the liver, some of those. And so you can reduce their maintenance requirements. And so you make them a little bit more efficient by doing that and using a ration that's limit fed. It's a little bit more higher concentrate. I've seen back to Logan's point. I've seen not in a. I've seen some guys doing it in a barn, but I've seen some guys doing it in dry lot pens. And they graze on cover crops when the crop fields are not in production. And then they put the cows in confinement from spring to fall when the crops are in the field. And so timing your calving up when the cows can calve while they're out on the COVID crops seems to work pretty well. From a little bit of experience I have doing some economics on confinement barns for finishing calves. It's the value of the manure for the crop producer that really pushes you over the edge as far as be able to make it worth it. So because you're getting a much higher quality manure in a confinement barn than you are from a dry lot pen. And so that really helps, especially when fertilizer prices are high. And then I guess the other thing I would think about too is what kind of confinement barn is he building? Is he building a brand new one like mono slope barn or a hoop barn or something? Or is he trying to retrofit like an old pole barn machine shed type thing? And so airflow is huge in those. And so get somebody involved with you that has experience in designing a confinement barn for cattle to make sure that you can get it set up where you got good airflow through that barn.
- [25:03]
A
Yeah, I think absolutely great, great points on all those. And so it has been tried before. There's some information out there I think worth looking up, but it can be area specific. And what type of barn am I looking at? Where does it look? And I would. And I'll echo kind of what Dustin was thinking here. Spreadsheet will help, right? So if you run through and run all your numbers go back and forth, I think will be very useful. So thanks guys for your input on those topics and appreciate you sending in a question. If you've got another question for us, you can email us@bcisu.edu.