Theileria Diagnosis, Cow Size Economics, and Heifer Rebreeding Strategies

Summary

Cattle Chat - Episode Summary

Podcast: BCI Cattle Chat
Episode: Theileria Diagnosis, Cow Size Economics, and Heifer Rebreeding Strategies
Date: May 15, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Brad White (A), Dr. Dustin Pendell (D), Dr. Philip Lancaster (B), Dr. Bob Larson (C)

Overview

This episode of BCI Cattle Chat explores important listener questions regarding the diagnosis of Theileria, the economics of mature cow size, and strategies for improving rebreeding rates in first-calf heifers. The BCI experts from Kansas State University address emerging disease concerns, dissect economic drivers and animal management strategies, and provide hands-on advice for producers aiming to enhance their herd’s productivity.

---

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Diagnosing Theileria in Cattle

[03:26–08:30]

Background:

• Theileria orientalis is a tick-borne blood parasite first noted in U.S. cases in Virginia and has since been detected in several states.
• It causes red blood cell loss, similarly to anaplasmosis, but can affect calves as well as adults.

Diagnosis:

• There is no rapid chute-side test. Diagnosis requires lab testing:
  • PCR test (using a blood or spleen sample) is the primary method.
  • Blood smears may reveal the parasite but are not always reliable.

At Necropsy:

• You may observe icterus (yellowness of body tissues), including yellow fat and eye sclera, suggesting liver problems or blood cell breakdown.
• These necropsy signs are indicative but not definitive because they overlap with other diseases like anaplasmosis.

Context is Crucial:

• Disease impact is often more severe in naive, newly introduced cattle versus those long-exposed and already positive but asymptomatic.
• Laboratory confirmation needs to be interpreted alongside herd history and other causes of death.

Notable Quote:

[06:27] Dr. Bob Larson (C): “No one piece of evidence will convict Theileria. I need several pieces of evidence kind of pointing in the same direction.”

2. Economics of Mature Cow Size

[08:31–17:20]

Industry Dynamics:

• The industry favors heavier finished cattle (1600–1800 lbs) to maximize beef yield, especially as overall herd sizes decrease and prices increase.
• Cow-calf producers, however, may prefer smaller cows (1100–1200 lbs) due to lower maintenance costs and grazing pressures.

Cost-Benefit Considerations:

• Larger cows eat more and often require supplemental feed, especially if stocking rates aren’t adjusted.
• Research indicates you gain about 6 lbs of weaning calf weight for every 100 lbs increase in mature cow size—not always enough to offset the increased feed and management costs.

Geographic and Operational Factors:

• Forage capacity and local environmental conditions play a big role in the optimal cow size.
• Labor requirements often don’t scale linearly with cow size; more total animals typically increase labor less than expected.

Disconnect in Segmented Industry:

• Cow-calf producers and feedyards operate independently:

  [17:08] Dr. Brad White (A): “The person who is concerned about the labor for the cow, feeding the cow, number of grazing days is a different person than the person making the decision of when do I harvest these cattle.”

Notable Quotes:

• [10:41] Dr. Bob Larson (C): “A big cow has a higher cost. Now if I get enough bigger calf from her that the income is coming in, that might be a good trade... But I need to know... what's the cost difference... and what's the value difference in their calves.”
• [11:49] Dr. Philip Lancaster (B): “If you’re running the same number of cows with that big a difference in their mature weight, then I’m either got to shorten up my grazing season... or I’m overgrazing.”

Practical Advice:

• Adjust stocking rates for bigger cows.
• Consider trade-offs between additional calf weaning weight and cost to maintain larger cows.
• Labor increases mostly with more hay feeding days, not just number of cows.

---

3. Strategies for First-Calf Heifer Rebreeding

[17:21–23:11]

Challenges:

• First-calf heifers notoriously have a longer postpartum interval (time from calving to first heat)—often around 100 days vs. 60 days for mature cows.
• Proper rebreeding is critical for establishing a productive cow for life.

Key Strategies:

• Heifer Development:

  • Begins at weaning and includes ensuring early puberty and on-time first pregnancy.
  • Preferentially breed heifers early so they calve early and have more time to resume cycles before second breeding.

• Nutritional Management:

  • Continue managing heifers separately from the mature herd after calving.
  • Provide higher nutrition (energy, protein, and mineral supplementation)—especially if calving before high-quality spring forage is available.

• Mineral Supplementation:

  • Having mineral available is important, but only a “big rock” if you’re not providing it at all.
  • Best practice: Mix minerals into feed supplements so all animals receive adequate intake.

Notable Quotes:

• [18:27] Dr. Bob Larson (C): “Heifer development... doesn't stop with her first pregnancy. It's really about getting her through that first pregnancy, have a calf hopefully unassisted, and then rebreed for her second calf.”
• [20:15] Dr. Philip Lancaster (B): “One thing we could do to improve breed back... is keep them separate from the cowherd and feed them a little bit better… and feed them an energy and protein supplement during that early lactation time period.”
• [21:45] Dr. Philip Lancaster (B): “If you've got mineral out there and they're consuming it, it's a little rock. If you're not putting mineral out there, it's a big rock.”

Practical Takeaways:

• Breed heifers early and select only those that conceive early for the next generation.
• Manage first-calf heifers separately through early lactation to ensure optimal nutrition and mineral consumption.
• Starting nutritional management or supplementation at or after calving is too late—proactivity is crucial.

---

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On diagnostic context:

  [06:27] Dr. Bob Larson (C): “No one piece of evidence will convict Theileria. I need several pieces of evidence kind of pointing in the same direction.”

• On disconnect in the beef industry:

  [17:08] Dr. Brad White (A): “The person who is concerned about the labor for the cow... is a different person than the person making the decision of when do I harvest these cattle.”

• On mineral supplementation:

  [21:45] Dr. Philip Lancaster (B): “If you've got mineral out there and they're consuming it, it's a little rock. If you're not putting mineral out there, it's a big rock.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Theileria Overview & Testing: 03:25–08:30
• Cow Size Economics: 08:31–17:20
• First-Calf Heifer Rebreeding: 17:21–23:11

---

Conclusion

The BCI team offers science-backed, practical insights into three critical beef production issues. From emerging disease diagnostics to balancing economic incentives for cow size and fine-tuning heifer management, the episode is a must-listen (or read) for cattle producers and industry professionals seeking actionable advice on common and evolving beef herd challenges.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, welcome to BCI Cattle Chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us and happy to have our crew here in the studio. Morning, Dustin. Good morning, Philip.

[B]

Hello, guys.

[A]

Bob.

[C]

Good morning, everybody.

[A]

So we're glad you guys are here because we've got several listener questions today. One's on heifer breeding, one is on mature cow weight. I know we've discussed it, but we had actually a listener that listened and said, hey, let me give you some feedback and I've got some other ideas. I'll share those with you and we'll talk a little bit about the Lyria. And we've talked about that before on a previous podcast with Dr. Olds, who's really the expert. But there's a couple follow up questions that we've had that I think are worthwhile to address. Before we jump into those, I want to remind you, if you want to listen to some of those old episodes like I just described with Dr. Olds, those are all available on Spotify or itunes or on our BCI website if you want to find them there.

[D]

Or.

[A]

Or if you've got a question for us, you can send us an [e-mail]. before we get into our topics today, guys, I did have a question for you and I was wondering. So a lot of times the mascot of a college brings a lot of. It represents a lot to the college and it's important. And you have certain mascots that they have the person version that goes to events or you have the symbols, wear it on the clothing. I wanted to know if you had your own personal mascot that symbolized you, what would your mascot be?

[C]

Wow, let me see. It depends on the day. That's a tough question.

[A]

What would it be today?

[C]

Today, you know what I feel like today, you know, that kind of that unbroke horse that has some potential, but just kind of not focused and kind of scattered. Just picture, picture an Unbroken.

[A]

That's great place to be because you got lots of energy.

[C]

Yeah, I'm not really focused though.

[A]

I see the potential.

[C]

Yeah, see, so I like it. The scatterbrained two year old unbroken cult.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You're way better at this than I am. I have no idea how to come up with a mascot that represents.

[C]

But you know, here's good ones to think about. Like then here in Kansas, the Pittsburgh State Gorillas.

[B]

Yeah, Gorilla or wildcat or. I was trying to think if today I feel a little bit scattered. So I was trying to think of a Looney Tunes character that is a little bit scattered.

[A]

Elmer Fudd, Bugs Bunny, Wile E. Coyote. I was trying to watch out for anvils,

[B]

Daffy Duck for.

[A]

I think almost all the Looney Tunes characters are pretty scrambled. Dustin?

[D]

Yeah, I'm pretty much spot on with Philip. I'm not sure. But the last 10 days and probably for about the next, what, nine or 10 days till we get done finals, it's just been all over the place.

[C]

You know what? I could see the old Miss, the old country gentleman caricature. I could see Dustin kind of being the old Miss Guy should have had

[A]

two mascots for each other. Yeah, there you go.

[C]

I'm coming up with some for these guys.

[A]

Yeah, Dustin would be the Ole Miss. The Ole Miss Rebel. You might be maybe the Tasmanian Devil. Maybe that would fit into your unbroken cold.

[C]

Maybe so.

[A]

I like yours though. Excellent. Well, I. I wanted to jump in. We had a couple questions relative to thaleuria. So Deliria orientalis is a parasite that is tick borne and potentially transferred by other blood transfer mechanisms. Started coming to the front of notification a few years ago with some disease in Virginia. Subsequently, there have been cases confirmed in several states. One of the issues is it causes loss of the red blood cells. So you can see similar signs as we might expect with other diseases like anaplasmosis. One difference is you will also see this in calves. One of the questions we got Bob was, okay, I've heard a lot about this. Is there something I can look at if I have a cow or a calf in the chute? And I think this is a potential problem. Is there some test evaluation I can do, chute side to figure out if this animal has deliria?

[C]

Yeah, good question. And there's really not something that I can do that I'll get an answer back immediately. We have pretty good accurate diagnostic tests, but those require basically taking a blood sample and sending that into the lab and. And you'll get a pretty good answer. The problem with this disease, as in a lot of diseases, is you do have to think about the context. And for instance, I was talking to a veterinarian that investigated a case where they confirmed that they had some deaths due to thaleuria, this bloodborne parasite. And so then they started testing. And it was interesting in that the base herd was positive and been positive for a while, but the disease wasn't in that group. It was in new cattle that came in. Probably like in a lot of diseases we talk about, it's a lot worse early in the time frame. As in when the herd or individuals are very naive they haven't been exposed before. And so for. In that instance, the veterinarian said, yeah, the cattle that had been on this pasture for years, they were positive but weren't showing disease signs. New cattle they brought in became positive and they had serious health issues, even some deaths. And so my point behind that is the diagnostic test tells you whether they're infected or not. And if it fits the history, then that's probably why they died. But you need to keep the context in mind and consider the whole history about other things that could have caused death as well, because infection doesn't automatically equal the cause of disease.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a great point. And you have to. You really have to send it off to the lab for the PCR test to get a positive. But I think considering that context makes a difference. If another question that I received was, well, what if we look at necropsy? Is there something there that we can see when we look at those animals? That would tell us, yeah, this is the laria.

[C]

Well, there are some thalaria deaths. When you open up the body, you'll find that there's a lot of icter. So yellowness. So the fat's yellow, the sclera, the whites of the eyes are not white, they're yellow. And there's just a lot of yellowness to the body cavities when you open it up. And that would be indicative of some liver problems, the breakdown of blood cells, those kinds of things, which could certainly be filaria, could be anaplasmosis, could be a couple of other things that can cause that. And then, of course, you've got some of those animals, if they die really rapidly, you may not see that yellowing of body tissues and things like that. So again, there are some indications that this is certainly possibly deliria or something like that, but not always. And so it's still. It's all about kind of the context and putting several. Think of it as a crime scene. And you're putting in several pieces of evidence. No one piece of evidence will convict the laria. I need several pieces of evidence kind of pointing in the same direction.

[A]

Yeah. And I think, again, that's where our lab tests come in. And the recommended sample from our lab and most of the labs I'm aware of is that you get a piece of the spleen. So if you're suspicious, the spleen is not something we often look at, but you. And you won't see anything often grossly abnormal about it. With anaplas in cow, anaplasmosis in cows, you'll sometimes see an enlarged spleen, but frankly, that's hard to tell. I mean, we do a lot of our necropsies with left side down. The spleen. Spleen is buried under everything. You can kind of pull it up a little bit. If you easily find it, it's probably enlarged, but. But you can take a small piece of the spleen, you send it in. The, the testing that that's done now is, is primarily pcr. The other thing I'd add, for years we'd look at a blood smear with anaplasmosis. And yes, you can sometimes see the parasite. And if you see it there, it's there. It's there. Same way with Deliria. However, in many cases you're not gonna be able to see that parasite. So just a simple blood smear could be useful if you find it and identify it. But often you're not going to see it there. So this, the unfortunate thing about this one, yes, we can have signs that point in that direction, but you do need to send a sample to the lab. The other thing that I would say to follow up on your point, positivity does not equal cause of death. So just because they're positive for some of these, and we have some other diseases that fall into this category. So it has to be interpreted in light of what you see as far as signs. So I think that's good discussion there on the laria, and I'm sure we'll have more as we learn more about that disease that's been emerging relatively recently. The next question, and Dustin, I'm gonna go to you first, because the first part of the question is how do the industry. And it's on mature cow size. But this is from a person that has a cow calf operation. They said, how do the industry economics dictate these really big cattle at the time of harvest? 16-1800 pounds. But then I'm supposed to have a cow that's. That's relatively small. What. Why are the economic drivers set up that way in the industry?

[D]

Well, I mean, the economic drivers, I guess, as of today, I think it's a little complex. I don't know. It's real straight in the sense that we've got small herd size, it's driving up prices. How are we going to offset some of those smaller numbers, lower pounds? Well, you make the cows a little heavier. Right. So I think that's. Maybe that's not as complex as I thought it was.

[A]

It's complex, but you explained it really well.

[D]

But then you come back to the 1100 pound cow. You said it's a smaller cow. I guess I don't know how to correlate that 1600 pound to 1100 pound cow. But the vat cow, 1600 pound is, it's small.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Prices and we need more meat. And so you're going to, you get

[A]

a frame size difference. So if you have a, if you have a smaller cows, you're putting more weight on those smaller frames because that's her mature size and it's a very segmented industry. So there's different economic drivers for the cow calf producer and the feed yard. And Bob and Philip, you guys have done research on this and as I understand the results of your research, sometimes big cows are better and sometimes little cows are better.

[B]

Is that straightforward? Yep. There you go. Yeah.

[C]

Well it is a complex question about, you know, best mature cow size. And you know, one of the things I think we need to point out right away is geography matters. You know, so you know, forage capacity, grazing capacity, those kinds of things, they dictate a lot about what kind of a cow fits in different environments. This is a conversation I'm going to have with, with Philip. It seems to me that on, on a bigger cow is going to require more calories in a year. So in her 365 days, bigger cow is going to require more calories. Therefore she's either going to graze more acres or I'm going to have to deliver more calories to her in the winter or while she's on forage or something like that. So she's, she's got a higher cost. So a big cow has a higher cost. Now if I get enough bigger calf from her that the income is coming in that, that might be a good trade. But I need to, I need to know how much my cows are. What's the cost difference between a 1600 pound cow and 1100 pound cow and what's the value difference in their calves. And if I understood those types of things, I'd have a somewhat of an idea for my operation. What kind of a cow size would work best for me?

[B]

Yeah, so two things about the question and kind of, and back to your comment, he, he talks about having 1001500 pound cows and 1001100 pound cows. And so if you're running the same number of cows with that big of a difference in their mature weight then I'm, I'm either got to shorten up my grazing season because the 1500 pound cows are going to consume more forage per day and my land is still producing the same amount of forage or I'm over grazing. And I think a lot of guys with the, over the, over the last 30 years our cow size has increased and I'm not sure we've adjusted stocking rate, which can, can be negatively hurting our productivity of our land. But if that's the case, then we're probably having to bring more feed to that 1500 pound cow than the 1100 pound cow. And so, and then back to your question of overcoming that extra cost. There's some, some research out of Oklahoma State. If I remember the numbers right, you gain about, on average about 6 pounds of weaning weight for every 100 pound increase in mature cow size. So about a 400 pound increase in mature cow size. Here we gain another 24 pounds in weaning weight. So is that enough to offset the additional cost of maintaining that 1500 pound cow? And so that, that all depends on your forage base and your feed costs and things in your calf market.

[A]

And yeah, I was gonna say and the price of cattle. I mean, so this year you could do some things differently than you could 10 years ago. The other point that he brought up, and this is one that we've not really addressed, is he said my labor cost is not that much different. So if I have bigger cows, my labor cost is not that much more. So granted you may have to put a little more feed out. You may have to, but not that much more. Between those two, what do you guys think about labor and how does that work into your models?

[B]

I'm not exactly sure how, how he means that his labor is the same Because I would think if my grazing season is shortened up with 1500 pound cows, then I've got more hay feeding days. So that means I've got more days where I'm hauling feed to cows. Which in my mind would increase your labor cost for those 1500 pound cows.

[C]

Yeah, I think the way to think about it is, I agree. I mean once you get to a certain number of cows, there's, there's a pretty low slope as far as increased labor. You know, I can have a bunch more cows and it's really about the same amount of time. But what really is, is how many grazing days do I have versus how many days do I have where I'm delivering feed? And I think it's not so much the number of cows that I have, it's the number of days that they're not grazing that really is what increases my labor in most cases. So I think that's the way to look at it is from a labor standpoint it's how many days are they not grazing?

[A]

Which the counter point would be if you have the grazing land to support 1001500 pound cows, you might also be able to support. I didn't do the math exactly, but you might be able to support more than 1251100 pound cows.

[C]

And that probably wouldn't really increase your.

[A]

And it probably doesn't change your labor much. Right. So if you have 100 cows versus 120 cows, how much does your labor increase? I don't think it's a 20 increase.

[C]

Right.

[A]

In labor. I think it's something much smaller than that because you've, you've already got most, your sunk cost going to feed them, doing stuff. And if I put out an extra bale or two what it, it doesn't take much. Any other thoughts on that one, Dustin?

[D]

I'm still going back to that first. I'm still trying to think through that first one about the, the animal that's going in the packing plant, right? About 1600 pounds. But we got the 1100 pound cow. Are we seeing a lot of these, you know, bigger animals that are going into the slaughter, Are they having health issues, Is there morbidity, mortality issues or.

[A]

I think that's a great question. So the, that's been one of the questions. As we feed animals bigger and bigger, are there an increased number of health issues? We've done some research in that area. We have not identified what I would term as an increase in the incidence, risk of disease or the daily risk of disease. However, the more days that we feed those cattle, the more total days at risk that they have. So in other words, we're not seeing a spike at the end of the feeding phase. That's telling us, okay, we're feeding them so that it's leading to or contributing to some of these health issues. But we still have health, I mean we have potential health risk any day that you're alive. So that's, that's one of the things that we've seen. But I think that's a great question.

[B]

Well, I think one of the things too, we've increased the cow size. So I'm not, I don't know that we're taking 1100 pound frame cows and getting a 1600 pound fat calf out of them. But we've also increased the, the physiological endpoint. We're not finishing cattle at the same level of Fatness as we were 10, 15, 20 years ago. We're, we're getting more yield grade fours and fives out of a group and we're pushing them to higher levels of fat. And so that's why we're getting heavier cattle out of those frame sized cows.

[A]

Even three to five years ago. Yeah, oh yeah, pretty dramatically. And I, I think though the, the crux of that is the disconnection between the cow calf and so the single person does not hold them all the way through in most instances. So the person who is concerned about the labor for the cow, feeding the cow, number of grazing days is a different person than the person that is making the decision of when do I harvest these cattle. So frame size, obviously it's built into the calf right when he, when he starts. But there's different people making those decisions along the process. So great question, great follow up. Appreciate any. Anytime we say something and you have a question or follow up and you want us to dig in further, you can always send that to us at bcisu Edu because we appreciate getting that feedback. Last topic I want to address is heifers breeding and I'm going to, I'm going to reframe this question a little bit. It's written as getting heifers to breed back, but I'm going to say first calf heifers. So after their first calf and how do I get them to breed back? Because that's our most troublesome group. So a lot of times those 2 year olds that have had a, had a calf and she's, we're trying to get her to breed back. We know with her first calf her postpartum interval is going to be longer. So, so if a cow is 60 days, that heifer is going to be 100 days or so. What do I do to get her bread back?

[B]

Bob?

[C]

Yeah, so I think heifer development is one of the most important things that we do on a ranching operation to really set up a good sustainable producing cow herd. And when I think of heifer development, it starts basically at when that heifer is weaned and getting her to the size so that she reaches puberty and gets pregnant for her first pregnancy. But it doesn't stop with her first pregnancy. It's really about getting her through that first pregnancy, have a calf hopefully unassisted, and then rebreed for her second calf. If I can get her bred early for her first calf and she has a relatively short period of infertility after that first calf, which is probably going to Be longer than the cows from that same herd and then get her bread for her second calf. If I can get that to accomplish early in that second breeding season, then that cow is pretty much set for life. She'll be fine. But that being said, there is work to be done and it's really about monitoring those heifers. It's about getting them bred early enough that first pregnancy. So even though, you know, we talk about a 60, 70, 80 day breeding season for cows, I like to limit that for heifers so that I force them to calve early. My preference is actually for them to start calving before the cows start calving. In fact, it'd be nice if they were finished calving about the time the cows start calving. But that's a relatively short, confined breeding season. So back to my heifer development. We'll get them bred early and if they don't conceive early, I'm not sure I want to keep her as a replacement and then have her calf early enough that she's got those extra days after she calves to resume fertile cycles before we start the breeding season for her second pregnancy. Now the other part is, and I'll turn to fill up on the nutrition side is those, those heifers are still growing. They're going through their first lactation. They have a little different nutritional requirements than a mature cow that's four or five years old.

[B]

Well, and I think that's maybe where sometimes we get in trouble is we get the heifer bred, we develop them separate, we kept them separate, we fed them, we got them bred, and then we turn them out with the cows and we feed them like they're a mature cow. I think one of the things that we could do to improve that breed back on those first calf heifers is if you can keep them safe, separate from the cowherd and feed them a little bit better. Especially if you're calving them early and they're trying to resume estrus and lactate and grow prior to having good green, high quality forage in the spring. So if they're, if they're calving a little earlier in like late winter, then they probably need some better nutrition during that early lactation period than the mature cows. And so if we can keep them separate and feed them an energy and protein supplement during that early lactation time period, that will help them to breed back better.

[A]

Yeah, still a growing animal, not a mature cow, just a little bit smaller. And we got to feed them differently. One part of the question that they Asked too was what's the role of minerals in this equation? Or vitamins and minerals, if I lump those two together? Because I think there are times we like to throw things at the mineral and say, well, maybe my mineral supplementation needs to be better. Or some of the other issues is that I'm going to start with asking, is that a big rock or a little rock?

[B]

If you've got mineral out there and they're consuming it, it's a little rock. If you're not putting mineral out there, it's a big rock. So, and I think that you're right. I think some of the times we don't have a good idea of what the mineral concentration is in our base diet. Like especially like our hay, our pasture. For we don't measure that, it's expensive, so we don't do it much. And so we don't have a good idea. And so we're putting out a mineral that's supposed to match that type of production system. It's formulated to supposed to match that type of forage and whatever. And so lots of times, because it's an unknown, it's a little bit of a black box. We tend to put some blame on, well, my mineral program wasn't very good and that's why they didn't bring back breed back. If we've got a good quality mineral out there and they're actually consuming it, consumption is the huge factor. There is every animal in the herd consuming it. And if I'm going to feed a supplement to those early lactation first calf heifers, I'm putting the mineral in the supplement. I'm not giving them the option to avoid it. Free choice. I'm forcing them to consume it in a supplement. And then that is the big unknown is how much of it and is every animal consuming it?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's. You guys hit on several of the key factors. And Bob, your point is, if I'm starting at the time of calving, that's way too late for me to get them bred back or even a little bit before calving because the die has been cast. And when she calves is important. And Philip, you're saying similar on nutrition. I need to have a solid program all the way through. And those heifers are not adult cows. And so yes, I manage them separate. But even through this, and I get it, this phase is the hardest one to keep them separate. Right when she's getting close to having that calf, you're like, I want to put them in the calving pastures, do those sorts of things, but keeping them separate to manage that nutrition, including the minerals as part of the process. So appreciate you guys answers to those questions and thanks for sending us your questions. If you have other questions you'd like us to discuss, you can send us an [e-mail].