Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford: Episode Summary Title: “I love being the person who doesn’t know anything” - Why Steven Levitt has swapped academia for podcasting
Host: Tim Harford
Guest: Steven Levitt
Release Date: April 11, 2025

1. Reunion and Early Success of Freakonomics (00:00 – 10:50)

Tim Harford welcomes Steven Levitt, co-author of the groundbreaking book Freakonomics, marking their reunion 20 years after their first meeting. Levitt recounts the unexpected success of Freakonomics, emphasizing its unique blend of rigorous economics with pop culture storytelling.

Steven Levitt (03:20): "It was pure graft, you know, that made this thing take off."

Levitt attributes the book’s success to a combination of timing, the engaging writing partnership with Stephen Dubner, and unexpected promotional tactics, such as appearing on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart through unconventional means.

Tim Harford reflects on his own experiences, contrasting his appearances on The Colbert Report with Levitt’s experience, and humorously mentions auctioning Levitt’s book copy on eBay.

2. The Making and Impact of Freakonomics (05:15 – 10:50)

Steven Levitt delves into the origins of Freakonomics, explaining how his academic research on unconventional economic topics was transformed into accessible and entertaining narratives with Dubner. He highlights the book’s dual nature—rooted in serious economic studies yet presented with a playful and rebellious tone.

Steven Levitt (08:34): "We just basically have been milking that completely fake image he built about me for the last 20 years."

Levitt candidly discusses the challenges of following up the success of Freakonomics, noting that subsequent books didn’t achieve the same popularity. He attributes this to the initial novel attitude and approach that resonated uniquely with readers.

3. Challenges in Academia and Departure (10:50 – 15:47)

The conversation shifts to Levitt’s experiences at the University of Chicago’s Economics Department. He paints a picture of a highly competitive and sometimes toxic academic environment, citing Jim Heckman, a Nobel laureate, as an example of adversarial relationships within academia.

Steven Levitt (13:37): "We couldn't get it published easily."

Levitt criticizes the high standards and rigidity in academic publishing, which stifled his enthusiasm for tackling broader, impactful problems. This frustration ultimately propelled him to leave academia and pursue endeavors outside traditional academic confines.

4. Real-World Innovations and Social Change (15:47 – 31:50)

Steven Levitt discusses his venture, the Center for Radical Innovation for Social Change (Risk), aimed at applying economic principles to solve pressing social issues. He shares success stories, such as initiatives to increase kidney donations by addressing donor disqualifications related to weight and smoking.

Steven Levitt (21:22): "So all we would do was just work with transplant centers, give them flyers and say, send people our way."

Another significant project involves collaborating with Sal Khan of Khan Academy to establish an online school, challenging traditional high school education models and advocating for data science integration in curricula.

5. Rethinking Math Education (27:09 – 31:50)

Tim Harford and Levitt explore the shortcomings of current math education, particularly in high schools. Levitt argues that traditional computational skills taught in high school are obsolete, advocating for a curriculum focused on data science and practical applications.

Steven Levitt (27:20): "Many of the hardcore mathematicians get upset and they say, oh, we're not teaching deep math. But I will tell you, there's very deep math in data science."

Levitt emphasizes the importance of making math relevant and engaging for students, drawing parallels to art appreciation to foster a genuine understanding and appreciation of mathematics.

6. Transition to Podcasting and New Ventures (34:25 – 40:59)

Discussing his shift from academia to podcasting, Steven Levitt reveals his creation of the podcast People I Mostly Admire. Initially skeptical about podcasting, he later embraced it as a platform to engage in meaningful conversations without the pressures of academic expectations.

Steven Levitt (34:51): "God, I found I'm very comfortable with that second role I love of being the person who doesn't know anything and then is trying to extract information from experts."

Levitt highlights the podcast’s success and its role in allowing him to explore diverse topics and personal stories, including poignant interviews with his own children, which deepened his familial bonds.

7. Insights on Parenting and Personal Growth (40:59 – End)

The episode concludes with a heartfelt discussion on parenting. Levitt shares his personal challenges and the lessons learned from raising his children, emphasizing unconditional love and presence over academic or extracurricular pressures.

Steven Levitt (43:07): "I believe that if your kids feel loved, most other things will take care of themselves."

He admits to struggles with balancing work and parenting but underscores the importance of dedicating undivided attention to his children when possible.

Key Takeaways and Reflections

• Adaptability and Innovation: Levitt’s journey from academia to successful authorship and podcasting underscores the importance of adaptability and pursuing passions beyond traditional career paths.

• Impact Over Prestige: His work with Risk highlights the potential for interdisciplinary approaches to effect meaningful social change.

• Education Reform: The conversation advocates for a transformative approach to education, particularly in mathematics, to better prepare students for the modern world.

• Personal Connections: Levitt’s experiences reveal the profound impact of personal relationships and genuine conversations, both in professional settings and personal life.

Notable Quotes

• Steven Levitt (03:20): "It was pure graft, you know, that made this thing take off."
• Steven Levitt (08:34): "We just basically have been milking that completely fake image he built about me for the last 20 years."
• Steven Levitt (27:20): "Many of the hardcore mathematicians get upset and they say, oh, we're not teaching deep math. But I will tell you, there's very deep math in data science."
• Steven Levitt (34:51): "God, I found I'm very comfortable with that second role I love of being the person who doesn't know anything and then is trying to extract information from experts."
• Steven Levitt (43:07): "I believe that if your kids feel loved, most other things will take care of themselves."

Conclusion

In this episode of Cautionary Tales, Tim Harford engages in a candid and insightful conversation with Steven Levitt, exploring the intersections of economics, academia, education, and personal growth. Levitt’s reflections offer valuable lessons on innovation, the importance of passion-driven work, and the profound impact of genuine human connections.