← Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford
Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford
"They fall behind and are slowly crushed" - Board Games and Economics with Richard Garfield
00:47:33
Loading summary
Transcript140 lines
- [00:00]
Tim Harford
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Richard Garfield
Guaranteed Human.
- [00:04]
Malcolm Gladwell
This is Malcolm Gladwell from Medal of Stories of Courage. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal is proud to serve over 2 million veterans and their families because their service inspires Navy Federals and your service opens the door to membership, which means you get access to exclusive rates, discounts and financial tools that that you can share with your whole family. Become a member@navyfederal.org veterans and from all of Navy Federal. Happy Veterans Day. Navy Federal Credit Union. Navy Federal is insured by ncua.
- [00:42]
Public Investing Representative
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. Public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures when.
- [01:51]
Richard Garfield
You buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com the.
- [02:21]
Sprite/Coca-Cola Advertiser
Holidays are already in full swing, the lights are up, you got good people, good food and good vibes. And there to help keep that energy going is Sprite Winter Spice Cranberry with that crisp cranberry flavor with a smooth winter spice twist. It's the drink that livens up game nights, gift exchanges, or just catching up in the kitchen with a burst of Holiday flavor. It's a seasonal favorite, but it's only here for a limited time, so grab it while you can. Sprite Winter Spice. Cranberry Sprite. Obey your thirst.
- [02:58]
Tim Harford
Pushkin. We get lots of emails dropping into the Cautionary Tales inbox. Ideas for shows, reflections on episodes, you know, honest feedback. By the way, it's talesushkin FM and do keep them coming. But a few months ago I spotted an email from a name I recognized. Richard Garfield is a mathematician, inventor and the game designer behind the huge game the Gathering and many more synths including King of Tokyo, Robo Rally, and Keyforge. But Richard had a bone to pick with me about one of my previous episodes of Cautionary Questions. So of course, of course, rather than argue with him on email, I'd much rather argue with him in person and maybe ask him a few questions, yours and mine, about games and game design. I'm very excited. Richard Garfield, welcome to Cautionary Tales.
- [03:58]
Richard Garfield
Hello, Tim. It's a pleasure to be here.
- [04:00]
Tim Harford
The pleasure is all mine. I think this is going to be a lot of fun. I'm very grateful that you have agreed to do this and, and thanks also for being a listener to the show. So very kind of you to know you're out there listening to. Listening to Cautionary Tales.
- [04:14]
Richard Garfield
I'm devoted. Have listened to everything and easily my favorite podcast.
- [04:20]
Tim Harford
Wow. Well, that's. I'm blushing. Now, Richard, you got in touch following an episode of Cautionary Questions involving me and Jacob Goldstein. This episode, in fact, what are your.
- [04:34]
Richard Garfield
Thoughts on UBI Universal Basic Income as a solution to an AI crisis and. And the widespread philosophical and economic implications of this?
- [04:43]
Tim Harford
If what Alex is thinking about comes true, and if most people just have no economic value, they have value as human beings have value as members of society, but there's nothing that they could actually sell their labor to do, then that's completely uncharted territory. We've never been anywhere like that before. So everything we do is kind of speculative.
- [05:05]
Richard Garfield
The idea of more or less everybody losing their jobs I'm skeptical of for the simple reason that it hasn't happened in 200 years of incredible technological progress. I don't think we're going to have everybody losing their jobs to AI. I definitely could be wrong, but that's what I think.
- [05:19]
Tim Harford
No, I think that's a good working assumption. If you think back a few centuries, basically, almost all the labour that people did, they might wash their clothes occasionally. Well, that's been outsourced to the washing machines. Almost everything we used to do is now done by machines, but somehow we still all have jobs. Tell me what you felt when you. When you heard the conversation between me and Jacob.
- [05:42]
Richard Garfield
I've been interested in the effects of technology on our economic system for a long time and I'm particularly interested in universal basic income as a possible solution. And the core of my disappointment was that I didn't feel like the universal basic income aspect of it was being engaged with in the way I wanted to hear it talked about. Often economists seem to write off some of the concerns in a way which doesn't seem helpful. Yeah, I was particularly interested in what you had to say about it and that wasn't really there.
- [06:19]
Tim Harford
Yeah. And we didn't do any of that. We mostly said, don't worry, the robots aren't going to take our jobs. Which, you know, we may be right or we may be wrong, but it kind of left the universal basic income question to one side. So thank you for raising that, Richard. We. We will talk about universal basic income. Hopefully I'm going to be able to talk to you a little bit about games, but before we do any of that, we are going to play the cautionary tales theme. I am talking to Richard Garfield. Richard, you are a huge star in the gaming world. When did your love affair with games begin?
- [07:19]
Richard Garfield
I was always attracted to games, but I don't think I really became a gamer until Dungeons and Dragons. Dungeons and Dragons blew my mind. It was just a complete revelation for me. I had no idea the range of things that could be done with games. It became really a lifelong obsession with Dungeons and Dragons.
- [07:45]
Tim Harford
What is it specifically about the tabletop roleplay games? I mean, I'm a huge fan of them as well that you love so much. Is it the sort of just the endless possibility? Like it doesn't even seem to be a game in the normal sense.
- [07:59]
Richard Garfield
What originally drew me to it was that it broke all the rules I had understood about games. There was no time limit on them. There was no explicit victory condition. The responsibility for play was much more in a recognizable way in the hands of the player rather than a system of rules. And so its value to me was really showing the range of what could be done with games. I just think that role playing is in itself an amazing pastime because of the endless possibilities, you know, that anything can be done with it.
- [08:36]
Tim Harford
Yeah, they are remarkable. I remember quite vividly being told by a friend about this game and I couldn't quite get my head around what he was describing. So was this a computer game? I was like, no, it's not a computer game. Is there a board? No, not really. There's a map. And I think we should probably help people who don't know how these games work to conceptualize them. And fundamentally you've got, in your classic role playing game, you have a game master or a dungeon master who is describing situations and then the players are adopting roles. That's why it's called role playing. So they might be a. Astronauts, space explorers, wizards, and they're describing how their characters respond to the situations.
- [09:22]
Richard Garfield
Yes. If you just, if you play traditional games and you first run into role playing games, it really challenges all your preconceptions about what games are and what they can be.
- [09:34]
Tim Harford
One of the things that interests me though, is that you're, I mean, you're deep into Dungeons and Dragons. You were, I think, one of the primary play testers for the, for the third edition. Is that right?
- [09:43]
Richard Garfield
That's correct, yeah.
- [09:44]
Tim Harford
But you're, you're famous for your board games and your card games, which are more structured, and the tabletop role playing games, which are so, can be so freeform, they feel quite different to board games. So. So I'm curious as to why there is such a lot of overlap. I mean, I love both, you obviously love both, a lot of people love both. And yet that. It seems a little bit like saying, well, if you love cricket, then then obviously you should love marathon running. They're not really the same thing at all. But. So why this, why this affinity between the two?
- [10:16]
Richard Garfield
Yeah, that's a really good question. I've asked myself why I ended up devoted to more traditionally structured games than role playing, since role playing was my introduction to the hobby. And I'm not sure what the answer is, but one difference between the way I looked at games and a lot of my peers was that my peers found a game they loved and they became devoted to that game and I became devoted to games as a whole. So, for example, I became interested in classic games like Go and chess and cards, but I also became interested in sports and what the games were that were being played within sports and trying to see the connections between all these different areas of games. So I'm not sure why I ended up in that area in specific, but I do know that there's been sort of a lifelong exercise of mine to expand and unite games under one umbrella rather than be a bunch of separate things. Like, one of the things that was very interesting to me when I was beginning out is I would ask people what games they played and they say, often I Don't play any games. And then we'd talk a little further and it would turn out they played poker, they just didn't consider it a game. Or they played chess. Oh, no, that's not a game, that's a sport.
- [11:37]
Tim Harford
Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, do we have a definition of games that satisfies you?
- [11:42]
Richard Garfield
No, no, I follow the fuzzy definition of games where there are things that are more or less game like, but that you're not going to have a precise definition. There's always going to be fuzziness. And often exploring that fuzzy boundary is quite interesting.
- [11:59]
Tim Harford
One game that is definitely a game, there's no fuzziness about it, I think, is Magic the Gathering, which is your game. And I mean, I think has got to have a claim to be one of the most successful tabletop games of all time. So, astonishingly popular game. Tell us a little bit about that game and how you developed it.
- [12:24]
Richard Garfield
Magic began with a eureka moment, which is not common with my game design. My game design is more evolutionary than revolutionary, typically. But I was hiking and had this thought which overwhelmed me, which was that not all the players had to have the same equipment in the game. And I just. I just felt like there was endless possibilities with this idea that people would bring different cards or different components of some sort to the game and. And compete with those. And it took me a little while before that became what it is now, which is a game where the players have cards which represent magic spells and they have a duel with these spells. And. Yeah, it was published in 93, and it was instantly very hard to keep enough in print to satisfy the growing and ravenous player base.
- [13:28]
Tim Harford
One of the things about it that. That I. As an economist and as a gamer, one of the things that struck me as so clever was that it's kind of. It. It's got this kind of collectible baseball card quality to it. This idea of that you would buy packs of cards in the hope of maybe getting a rare one. I mean, that's kind of genius, both in terms of gameplay and of course, in terms of economics. I mean, suddenly people have a reason to buy and buy and buy the game. So, yes, well done, you.
- [13:58]
Richard Garfield
It was a surprise to me as much as anyone how the idea took off. I knew that it was a good game because my playtesters were playing it devotedly, even after two years with the same set of cards. But I still expected people to buy maybe a deck or two and then just trade after that. I did not expect them to buy like they did. And it has been an ongoing tension with the game. The industry standard name for them is collectible card games. But I've always fought that as the name because I, I don't like the emphasis of collectible. I like calling them trading card games because it emphasizes the original intent, which was that players trade the cards between themselves. And history of the game is filled with speculators interfering with gameplay because they drive the prices up so high that people have trouble getting the cards to play. The economics of the game is fascinating. I have a friend whose thesis, economic thesis, was entirely about magic.
- [15:08]
Tim Harford
I think this interaction between games and trading is interesting. As an economist, when I occasionally play Monopoly, I'm always trying to get people to trade because there are gains from trade. If you're playing with five, six people, any two people who get together and trade, they're really stiffing the other players and they should do it. But in my experience with kind of non gamey gamers who are the kind of people who you're likely to play Monopoly with, they tend not to want to trade.
- [15:38]
Richard Garfield
One of the things in designing a game, I have found, is that you do have to consider not what the optimum play is, but how, how people actually do play. So if they play in a way which is in some theoretical sense not optimum and they end up having a miserable time, that's a fault of the game, not the players. And one has to take that into account.
- [16:03]
Tim Harford
Yes, that feels like a lesson for economic policy as well as for game design. You've got to deal with how people actually behave rather than how they might behave in some theoretical world. Which I guess brings us onto the question of universal basic income, which I promised you I'm going to get to. So let's do it. So the issue on the table was let's say the robots take all our jobs or the robots take a substantial number of jobs from a substantial number of people. What would we do about that? And might a universal basic income be a response? And the basic idea of a universal basic income, it's pretty simple. It's universal and it's an income and it's basic. So everybody gets some cash. Maybe not loads and loads of cash, but they get enough cash. So, very happy to tell you what I think about this, but what's your take? You said you've been thinking about this for an enormous amount of time.
- [16:57]
Richard Garfield
Yeah. In fact I would like to give you the thought exercise which I'd had. So I've had so much trouble getting seriously considered, which I would ask my economic friends, as a thought experiment, what would happen if the jobs went away. It became almost pathological how often that wasn't taken as a thought experiment. That was taken as an opportunity to talk about how that can't happen.
- [17:25]
Tim Harford
Yes. And Jacob and I just did exactly the same thing. So I apologize for feeding your frustration. I mean, I understand why that is a response, because I think there's a long history of people overrating this possible scenario and getting too worried about it. But sure, let's entertain it. So what I'm imagining is we're living in a world now where most people. There's no real economic value to their labor. It's all being done one way or another by automation. That's super radical. Because our work has always had value in the past. And therefore the implicit bargain has always been, you know, if you want to eat, then you got to work. You trade your labor, you get consumption, you get good stuff. So in this hypothetical world, you can't trade your labour for consumption because your labor doesn't have any value. You still have value as a human being. So what are we going to do? Technically speaking, it doesn't seem that hard. I mean, one way of thinking about it that ties it to today's economy is you just say, well, the government, which we'll assume is still a democratic government representing the citizens. The government just taxes capital. So we levy a tax on companies, will levy a tax on anyone who has a robot, and we redistribute that income to all the citizens. Everybody gets $20,000 a year or whatever it is, and they just spend that money buying stuff from the robots. Or if we're talking more Star Trek, more futuristic, maybe the rule is it's not about income. You just have a robot who works for you. Everyone's got a robot who works for them. Or everyone gets some kind of voucher that entitles them to services from this kind of production system that is all automated. In principle, it's possible because you've got this tremendously productive economy and you've got a bunch of people who want to consume stuff. So what you're trying to do is bridge the gap. Like you're trying to figure out who has the rights to consume the output of all of this production and how do we assign those rights. So there are other possibilities, which is you've got some dystopian state and Elon Musk controls all the robots and they all have guns and nobody else gets anything. And then we're in some nightmare future. But Assuming we still live in a wealthy democracy, it's incredibly radical to say to people, your consumption is no longer tied to your production at all, but it doesn't seem impossible to set up that kind of system.
- [20:10]
Richard Garfield
Yeah, that describes it very well. And it has engaged in the thought experiment quite well. I would say that that is one of the things which I find appealing about universal basic income is that it seems like a dial, that you can spin it and get some result which might smoothly bridge that gap rather than change everything. And the thing is that if you don't, if that really is a possibility and we're really on the road there, then at what point do you actually make a change? Because I suspect if you don't make a plan for it that you're going to end up in a worse situation. It won't be simply, we're going to get to a point and people say, oh, we need to do something. It'll already be a dreadful state. Possibly you'll even get to a place where you can no longer really take the steps necessary to get a smooth transition.
- [21:06]
Tim Harford
Yeah, I mean, we already have a universal basic income in many rich countries. It's just universal, subject to the condition that you're over the age of 65. The age varies. What worries me, Richard, is the transition. And I think one of the things that is worrying is, is people are very concerned, maybe too concerned, but in any case, it's a fact. People are very concerned about the idea of the undeserving poor. The idea that you're giving money to people who are. They're taking advantage of you, you're working hard, you're paying your taxes, and then some other guy is just laughing at you and collecting this money on benefits and they're just a scrounger. It's a very powerful rhetoric and very powerful concern. So the moment in a society where most people can work, that concern tends to be fought by people saying, well, we're going to have tight restrictions on who can get paid. But the shift to a universal basic income, in the end, you're basically saying, well, everyone's going to get it. So I imagine at a stage where the robots are doing all the work and everybody gets this income again, it won't be problematic there. It's the getting from A to B that's the problem. And I think it seems in this hypothetical world where automation takes all the jobs and they're not going to take all the jobs all at once, they're going to take some people's jobs first and other people's jobs later. And so you get 20% of the jobs are automated, then 40% of the jobs are automated. Sure, people are trying to retrain, they're trying to get new jobs, but, you know, it's hard. Then it's 60% of people's jobs and then you've got the people who remain who no doubt will be telling themselves a story about how incredibly special they are and how incredibly special their skills are and how they're working hard. But in fact, it's just going to be pure chance. What stuff is automatable and what stuff is not. And I can imagine that kind of those questions as to who deserves to get this income and who exactly is going to pay for it are going to loom very large.
- [23:15]
Richard Garfield
I agree. I think that has definitely been a big part of the story around universal basic income. But one way I like to look at it, because I view everything through a lens of games, I like to look at it as a catch up feature. In games, when you fall too far behind, you can feel like you can't contribute, can't participate in the game in a productive way. And in game design, you can make good catch up features or bad ones. Now, a bad catch up feature encourages people to lean on it rather than do what they're supposed to be doing, which is playing the game. So when we start talking about these people get universal basic income, but these don't, that really opens up this possibility for I feel like these people are not playing the game, they're just leaning on the catch up feature. And that feels bad. But if it really is universal, if it's a citizen's dividend, then it's something where it raises everybody. And the people who do have work, they're going to have a better lifestyle because they're getting paid above and beyond. They won't feel like, oh, I shouldn't be participating because I'm denying myself this dividend.
- [24:37]
Tim Harford
Yeah, I mean, there is an argument that the most successful kind of government programs are always the universal ones. So whether it's the UK's National Health Service, where everyone who lives in the UK actually they're slightly tightening it. But basically the National Health Service is for everybody. Most rich people, for the most part using the National Health Service. And the same is true for the state pension. I mean, rich people have private pensions as well. But nevertheless, everybody gets the state pension. Nobody is told, well, you know, you're a millionaire, you don't get the state pension. And that I think has been quite important in building support for this sort of thing. So maybe Universal Basic Income could potentially benefit from that as well.
- [25:19]
Richard Garfield
Yeah, I think that's almost a necessary ingredient of getting it to work.
- [25:23]
Tim Harford
Richard, I have loads of questions from our listeners for you before we do that. Are you happy? Have we entertained the hypothetical enough?
- [25:32]
Richard Garfield
Absolutely, yes. Thank you. It was very, very engaging. Very pleased.
- [25:37]
Tim Harford
I'm here to serve, so it's good to hear. It's good to hear. Right after the break, we will be dipping into the virtual mail pack.
- [25:54]
Malcolm Gladwell
In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at Ookla Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch Super Mobile, the first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security and seamless satellite coverage. With Super Mobile, your performance, security and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand. With built in security on the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business Supercharged. Learn more@supermobile.com Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance coverage layers and security features. Best network based on analysis by OOKLA of Speedtest Intelligence data 1H 2025.
- [27:16]
Public Investing Representative
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, LLC SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures of available@public.com Disclosures this message.
- [28:26]
Apple Card/Mint Mobile Advertiser
Is brought to you by Apple Card Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com hey Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
- [28:55]
Malcolm Gladwell
You know one of the perks about.
- [28:56]
Tim Harford
Having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [29:14]
Richard Garfield
Of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent.
- [29:16]
Public Investing Representative
To $15 per month required new customer.
- [29:18]
Apple Card/Mint Mobile Advertiser
Offer for first 3 months only.
- [29:19]
Public Investing Representative
Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks.
- [29:20]
Richard Garfield
Busy taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.
- [29:24]
Tim Harford
We are back. I'm here with game designer extraordinaire Richard Garfield to answer your questions about games. So Richard, we have a question from Ronan who was a member of our cautionary club. He got in touch via Patreon to say, I would love to hear about the creative process of creating a game. Is it often a flash of inspiration, refined and polished and then released, or is it much more iterative? Does the theme arise first or the mechanics? So mechanics basically the rules of the game. You've told us a little bit about the flash of inspiration behind Magic the Gathering, but you said that was unusual.
- [30:06]
Richard Garfield
Yeah, I engage in a very iterative game design process and part of the reason for that is the games are often really complicated systems and I found that it is not worth my time to try to analyze everything up front, that it is much better use of time to make a prototype and play it just because you can. You can think about things forever and just miss fundamental stuff. So I design games, play them, iterate on them, and then eventually, sometimes often actually give up on them and maybe return to them years later or take pieces of them and combine them with other things. There's occasionally a eureka moment like I had with magic, but usually it's much more gradual.
- [30:53]
Tim Harford
Yeah, the theme of magic is your wizards dueling using spells. But it didn't have to be that theme. It could have been some other theme. So how important is the theme?
- [31:03]
Richard Garfield
So magic in particular was a mechanics first and then theme. And I would say more often than not, I do mechanics first, then theme, but I do it the other way as well. One of the most extreme examples of that was that I was playing a quiz game with my wife, Cony, and we were putting together these words to try to find the answers to these questions. And two of the words we put together were Fat Dracula. And we started laughing because it was such.
- [31:38]
Tim Harford
I'm immediately engaged.
- [31:39]
Richard Garfield
Such a good image. And it has a rhythm to it, so it makes a good game title. So I started making a game based on that. The idea was basically that these vampires get up at night and go out and eat a bunch of people and try to waddle home before the sun comes up, because the more people they eat, the slower they get. And it didn't actually end up being even called Fat Dracula. It's called the Hunger. The publisher decided to go with the Hunger as the name, but that is as close to beginning with the theme and ending up with and adding the mechanics as I've run into. So for me, it works both ways, and for designers, I think it often works both ways.
- [32:20]
Tim Harford
On the subject of this iterative process, we had a couple of listener questions about playtesting. So Andy's been in touch to say, please tell Richard I played a lot of Treasure Hunter with my son when he was younger. He's now 14. It's a game I intend to keep on the shelf for the day when I have grandkids. So I think that's a rave review. But Andy wants to know how you test your games. And Mike B has another question. Similar question. He says, richard, how much playtesting goes into a game before it gets released? And have you ever had a mechanic that you just couldn't make work or if you solved it, how?
- [33:00]
Richard Garfield
Ideally, a lot of play test, it's hard to model in your head what's going to happen with the gameplay to begin with. So that's solved by playtest. At first, just play test with the designer and friends. But then in the long run, you have this other issue, which we. We talked about a little earlier, which was that if people are playing in a way which isn't necessarily optimum, but that's the way they want to play, then it should still be a fun game. It should still work. I mean there can be some, some situations where there's a line of play which isn't fun and is discouraged. But, but in general, you shouldn't design this game for the best players and assume it's going to work out for everybody else.
- [33:45]
Tim Harford
But that must be an issue with, with the play testing because presumably, or maybe I'm, maybe, maybe this is the wrong assumption. I was assuming a lot of play testers are very keen gamers and are going to play very well. But maybe that's not true.
- [33:57]
Richard Garfield
No, that's often an issue and that is true. So when I play test, I do keep around often the same play testers throughout the development, but at the same time I try to mix in other play testers and I try to mix in, depending on the game, more casual players and people who, who have no idea what's going on. And I look at how they play because I want them to enjoy the game as well or to have something to work with. It's very easy to find yourself designing and designing and designing and iterating until you have a game which people who have played for three years love but nobody else can really get their head around it.
- [34:44]
Tim Harford
Yeah, I can imagine. Barbara writes to say please bless Richard for the joy that is Bunny Kingdom smiley face. You've got a lot of fans here, Richard. I've not even heard of Bunny Kingdom. You've designed so many games that I can't even keep up with them all. Anyway, Barbara loves it and in fact, her cautionary club profile photo comes from the Ladies Gaming weekend where she first played it. Anyway, her question what is the process you like best for collaboration with the artists that illustrate your board game designs? And is there a visual artist in the gaming world or not that you would really like to work with on a game?
- [35:26]
Richard Garfield
My favorite way to work with artists is to give them as much room to work as possible because they're generally in art, because they're creative. And so this went back as to the original work I was doing with.
- [35:44]
Tim Harford
Magic, which as a whole, I mean an amazing visual aesthetic. I mean the art is an incredibly important part of that game.
- [35:50]
Richard Garfield
Yes, the original 300 cards there were maybe 20 artists, maybe more. And in the early days there was this idea of setting up a bible of how to do the art and description of exactly what you wanted. In my approach and the way we tried to keep it for as long as I was around was to Instead, give them as little information as possible and see what they did. And I liked the variety that would give. I felt like you got more special things. And I've tried to keep that in my games in general, in magic. At some point they had to really turn up the prescription part of the art because it was becoming too crazy where one artist would draw goblins in one way and the other one would draw them, you know, as a completely different species. But still as a, as a philosophy, I like to give the artist as much room to work as possible.
- [36:46]
Tim Harford
Well, that does feel very Jim Henson, though. If all the goblins don't even look like they're the same species, everything's different. But yes, that's true.
- [36:53]
Richard Garfield
I think you can make it work.
- [36:55]
Tim Harford
Yeah, I think you probably could. I mean, what, what is a fantasy universe for, after all? And so to answer Barbara's question, the second part of Barbara's question, any particular visual artist you'd love to work with? I mean, let's broaden it. Live or dead. You can have Rembrandt, you can have Frida Kahlo, you can have anybody. Who would you love to work with on a game?
- [37:16]
Richard Garfield
Oh, Escher, maybe.
- [37:19]
Tim Harford
And why is that?
- [37:20]
Richard Garfield
I like the graphic sensibility of Escher. I like the imaginative quality to the work that you like. He was clearly somebody who liked to play with the rules and sort of see where that took him and these.
- [37:33]
Tim Harford
Kind of, these visual illusions, almost a.
- [37:36]
Richard Garfield
Game designer personality that was expressed in the, in the art.
- [37:40]
Tim Harford
Very good. So I've got more questions. A question from John, who asks. Magic the Gathering is more popular than ever, but digital collectible card games seem to be on the decline. Do you think there's a necessary component of in person play for games like this? So before you answer, Richard, you should tell us what digital collectible card games are, because this is kind of. I think this is going to be new to a lot of people.
- [38:08]
Richard Garfield
Yeah. So the most popular digital collectible card game was probably Hearthstone. And so, yeah, these games exist basically the same idea as, as Magic or Pokemon, where players build a deck, they construct something, and they bring it to a game and play it against competitors who bring their own decks. And so this is something which lends itself very well to the digital world because it's so easy to modify and add and change cards in your deck and do all the shuffling and all that great stuff. And there's a lot of things you can do that you can't do in paper.
- [38:43]
Tim Harford
Yeah.
- [38:44]
Richard Garfield
So is it important to be face to face the face to face quality of board games is very important, very valuable. And the community which you develop with it is critical and is much more critical with these massively networked games like Magic than it might be for a game which is played more with in a less networked way. But at the same time, the digital world brings its own stuff and there is a digital community as well which people get really real value out of it. I think right now we might be in a collectible bubble where there's a lot of the value of these games, these paper games are very high because the cards are being seen as very valuable.
- [39:37]
Tim Harford
It's part of the idea that there's a bubble in everything. Right. So there's these bitcoins in a bubble and maybe AI is in a bubble and yeah, everything's in a bubble at the same time. So these rare cards also may be in a bubble.
- [39:50]
Richard Garfield
Yeah. And this has been an issue with Magic from the very early days. In fact, very early on we had to intentionally crash the market because we were afraid that the speculators were just going to drive out the actual players. And people thought the game was going to be dead because we printed so much of the Fallen Empire's expansion.
- [40:13]
Sprite/Coca-Cola Advertiser
But.
- [40:13]
Richard Garfield
And they said it was the worst expansion ever and so forth because they were conflating whatever the play value was with what the value of their collection was. But it was very good for the game to see that crash. And we got a lot more players and people engaged with the game as they were intended to.
- [40:30]
Tim Harford
Yeah, interesting. Possibly this is all good practice for running the Federal Reserve. Learning when to pop the bubble. I hope you're enjoying this games special with Richard Garfield. I know I am. And Richard and I will be answering more of your questions after the break.
- [40:55]
Malcolm Gladwell
In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the experts at OOKLA Speed Test. And they're using that network to launch Super Mobile. The first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security and seamless satellite coverage. With Super Mobile, your performance, security and coverage are supercharged. With a network that adapts in real time, your business stays operating at peak capacity even in times of high demand. With built in security. On the first nationwide 5G advanced network, you keep private data private for you, your team, your clients. And with seamless coverage from the world's largest satellite to mobile constellation, your whole team can text and stay updated even when they're off the grid. That's your business Supercharged. Learn more@supermobile.com Seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Best Business based on a combination of advanced network performance coverage layers and security features. Best Network based on analysis by Ookla of Speedtest Intelligence Data 1H 2025 support.
- [42:17]
Public Investing Representative
For the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra, SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures this message.
- [43:26]
Apple Card/Mint Mobile Advertiser
Is brought to you by Apple Card Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com.
- [43:56]
Sprite/Coca-Cola Advertiser
And Doug, what a horrible call.
- [43:58]
Richard Garfield
Hey ref.
- [43:59]
Sprite/Coca-Cola Advertiser
Open your eyes ref.
- [44:00]
Richard Garfield
You're really not gonna call that. Come on.
- [44:03]
Public Investing Representative
Hey ref, why don't you customize your car insurance with Liberty Mutual and save money?
- [44:08]
Tim Harford
I don't think you get what we're doing.
- [44:11]
Malcolm Gladwell
Sure I do.
- [44:12]
Public Investing Representative
We're all just giving him advice. You guys on sports, me on saving money.
- [44:16]
Sprite/Coca-Cola Advertiser
Nope, that's not it.
- [44:18]
Public Investing Representative
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty.
- [44:24]
Tim Harford
We're back. Richard, Garfield and I are answering your questions about everything from Universal basic income to games. And Gaurav would like to know what are your favorite stories about games? For example, movies, TV shows, comic books featuring games.
- [44:42]
Richard Garfield
There are a number of poker movies that I like. Rounders and Cincinnati Kid. Yeah, I'm trying to think of some which deal with games in general.
- [44:52]
Tim Harford
There's Queen's Gambit, it's about chess. There's Tron, of course, and war games. So classic Early 80s movies about computer games.
- [45:02]
Richard Garfield
Yeah, well, Queen's Gambit was excellent. I enjoyed that a lot.
- [45:05]
Tim Harford
And Iain M. Banks, the player of games.
- [45:08]
Richard Garfield
Oh, well, that's amazing. Yeah, that is that. I'm a big Ian Banks fan and that is certainly a top draft for me.
- [45:18]
Tim Harford
Yeah. It's an incredible sci fi novel about a culture where game playing is incredibly important and about a person who's unbelievably good at playing games and becomes of civilizational importance.
- [45:33]
Richard Garfield
Something that sort of qualifies. There is also Ender's Game. Ender's Game had the protagonist being taken away and training to fight aliens. But they were a kid and so they played these sort of arena games. And it was very. It was very interesting how game like the Evolution was like how they built up strategies and within the game. They gamed the system, they did meta games and all that. So when you read it, it feels very game oriented.
- [46:04]
Tim Harford
Yeah. To see the more I think about it. So there's a Cory Doctorow novel for the win, which is all about its massively multiplayer online games and trading within those games. And it's all about economics. There's. There's lots. Does the Hunger Games count?
- [46:18]
Richard Garfield
Yeah, yeah. No, no, absolutely it does. Absolutely it does. Because I would say what. What ends up being, you know, counting is. I don't know when they're making moves in it that feel like they're playing a game. And that's kind of a fuzzy thing, but they definitely do that in the Hunger Games.
- [46:32]
Tim Harford
Richard, any chance Magic the Gathering will ever become a movie?
- [46:36]
Richard Garfield
There is a chance. I've seen Heard Noise and that it was definitely going to happen many times over the last 25 years. So certainly not holding my breath, but. But. But it's always possible.
- [46:49]
Tim Harford
And they made a movie of Angry Birds. They could. They could. Magic the Gathering seems a lot more promising than Angry. A piece of material, but there we go. We will see.
- [46:58]
Richard Garfield
I wouldn't have bet on it back in the 90s where games made into movies were awful these days. Yeah, it's a. It's a die roll. It might Work.
- [47:08]
Tim Harford
Richard, we. We have a. We have a question about a classic episode of Cautionary Tales.
- [47:14]
Richard Garfield
Yeah. Susie writes, in the episode Do Not Pass Go, you talked about how Monopoly doesn't really work as a critique of capitalism, even though that was the original intent behind the game. Instead, it ends up being more about the fun of crushing your opponents and getting rich. So here's my question. Why is it that games like the farming game actually succeed in teaching how hard and unpredictable farming is, while Monopoly totally misses the mark when it comes to critiquing capitalism? What is it about the design or gameplay of the farming game that helps its message come through? And why does Monopoly lose its message and the way people play it?
- [47:52]
Tim Harford
I love the question. So just to refresh people's memories or to inform people who hadn't heard the episode about the creation of monopoly. So Lizzie McGee, who created the immediate precursor to Monopoly, and her game looks like Monopoly, and it plays quite like Monopoly in its capitalist version, but it was supposed to have two modes, and in the other mode it was more cooperative. It embodied principles of georgist land taxation. And basically, if you played it that way, everybody got rich together. And that did not catch on. And I think when you describe it like that, it's pretty obvious why it didn't catch on, because that sounds like a really bad game. Everyone just gets rich together. When people are playing a game, they want a challenge. So feel free to disagree with me, Richard, but my theory is that it's not much of a game unless there's a challenge. Cooperative games do exist, and some of them are very good, but they are designed to present the players with obstacles. Whether it's a game of Dungeons and Dragons or it's a board game like Pandemic, they're very carefully designed to be difficult. And so when you succeed, you're cooperating with all the other players, but you're trying to beat the game. Whereas this kind of Landlord's game that Lizzie McGee designed seems to be a game where there is no challenge. The whole point is to say, hey, if you all kind of reformed capitalism, then everything would be fine and no one would suffer. Which sounds great as a political message, but sounds terrible as a game. Am I wrong?
- [49:24]
Richard Garfield
No, I think that's correct. One of the reasons why it probably doesn't work as the critique that she was intending for is she did put the players in the role of being the capitalist. And so I did this game, King of Tokyo.
- [49:41]
Tim Harford
It's a great game, by the way.
- [49:43]
Richard Garfield
I put the players in the role of being monsters tearing down Tokyo and beating each other up. And if I was aiming to make people see how bad it is to tear down cities, then I wouldn't have chosen that approach. But it doesn't mean that they come out of this thinking, oh, tearing down cities is great either. It's just people are able to get into the game. They can watch a horror movie and not end up thinking, horror is a terrific thing. Also, I actually wonder if it's as bad at showing the evils of capitalism as she saw them as it's viewed in the sense that Monopoly, there's a lot of people who really dislike the game. And those people, one of the things they really dislike is because they fall behind and then they're slowly crushed and they don't feel like they can get out of it. That's not the only problem with the game, but that is what a lot of people will take away from it. That kind of is a critique of capitalism.
- [50:45]
Tim Harford
Yeah, I think it probably is. Success breeds success, and a small amount of capital early on is often decisive, which I guess is a critique of capitalism. But it also makes for a terrible game. But there you go, people still play it. Richard, on the subject of Monopoly, I mean, that is a game that brings families together at Christmas, possibly because it's just a game that everybody knows how to play. Are there any games that you associate with Christmas that people might play as an alternative?
- [51:17]
Richard Garfield
Oh, sure. One of my favorite games for big get togethers is hive mind. The basic idea of hive mind is that you ask a question and everybody writes down the answer. Then you tally up points based on how many people answered the same way. So if your question was. Then the question might be, you know, name three planets. Which I guess isn't properly a question, but that's the sort of thing which you do. So the three. The three planets I would name are Earth, Mars and Jupiter. And so I should have let you think of some planets also. So in retrospect, what would you name as your planets?
- [52:02]
Tim Harford
Saturn, officially the best planet. Uranus, the most amusing planet, and Venus, goddess of love.
- [52:11]
Richard Garfield
So I should have said, you are allowed to choose the same. So let's say you said Saturn, which is a very reasonable answer, and Earth and Mars. Then each of us would get two points for Earth and Mars, because we both named those, and we would each get one point. One for. You would get one for Saturn and I would get one for Jupiter. And of course, you extend this to the whole group. And whoever scores lowest gets a strike. And when you get three strikes, you're out. And the questions can be very open ended, like name three things that are in the refrigerator or name three things that begin with the letter S. And you get crazy answers and people trying to sort of get on the same wavelength. Anyway, it's a game which is very social, handles any number of players and we sort of find it endlessly engaging at holiday time.
- [53:04]
Tim Harford
Yeah, that's a good one. The thing I do every Christmas is gather together my tabletop role playing group and we always play a Christmas themed game. So in one way or another the characters have to save Christmas or there's something Christmassy about it. The game that I'm running this Christmas, it's based on a game someone else has created called the Wassailing at Klaus Manor or Claws Manor. And it's basically a kind of social satire Upstairs, downstairs, where all the players are playing the role of the kind of the domestic staff. It's kind of Edwardian, so the butler, the maid, whatever at Santa Claus's manor. And basically everything is falling apart the Night Before Christmas in various chaotic ways. And you're playing the domestic servants and they can't, they. They cannot afford to lose this job. So no matter how unreasonable the requests from Santa Claus or Lady Claus or whatever, they've just got to, they've just got to keep the show on the road. And there are. Yeah, I'm looking forward to. It should be suitably ridiculous, but we will see. Richard, it's been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining us. One more question, what are you planning to do next?
- [54:21]
Richard Garfield
I'm working on a couple of auto battlers. Auto battling is a fascinating digital game concept where they feel very much like paper games, but whatever it is, you're building sort of fights by itself and, and so it unites this. I, I've been fascinated with games that are played digitally but feel like they could be paper games for a while. And this is in that. That between space, which is good. So one of them is Vanguard Exiles and it's an early release on Steam. And the other is Chaos Agents.
- [55:02]
Tim Harford
One of the best games I ever played was actually an auto battler and this is in the 19, would have been about 1991. I played it at school. We had a game called Robot arena where you had to program your own robot and send it into an arena. And it used a programming language, a bit like logo, which used to be drawn. You know, you move a turtle around. Great game.
- [55:25]
Richard Garfield
Yeah. I played a game very much like that. Yeah, I hadn't really thought of them as auto battlers, but you're right, they certainly do qualify and it was very, yeah, very interesting.
- [55:39]
Tim Harford
Richard Garfield, thank you so much for joining me on Cautionary Questions. I hope being roped in hasn't hasn't put you off listening to the show.
- [55:47]
Richard Garfield
No, not at all. I'm completely caught up and, and intend to stay caught up. So yeah, please keep them coming.
- [55:55]
Tim Harford
We will, we will. Merry Christmas and thanks again.
- [55:59]
Richard Garfield
Thank you.
- [56:05]
Tim Harford
Cautionary Tales is written by me, Tim Harford with Andrew Wright, Alice Fiennes and Ryan Dilley. It's produced by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original original music are the work of Pascal Wise, additional sound design by Carlos San Juan at Brainaudio and Dan Jackson. Ben Nadaff Haffrey edited the scripts. The show also wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Greta Cohn, Eric Sandler, Carrie Brodie, Christina Sullivan, Keira Posey and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review. It really does make a difference to us. And if you want to hear it ad free and receive a bonus audio episode, video episode and members only newsletter every month, why not join the Cautionary Club? To sign up, head to patreon.com.
- [57:11]
Richard Garfield
That'S.
- [57:11]
Tim Harford
Patreon P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com cautionaryclub.
- [57:22]
Public Investing Representative
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you try transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures Amazon Five.
- [58:32]
Richard Garfield
Star Theater presents Real customer reviews performed by Ed Helms Tonight's Review Tactical Jacket I was living a simple life. Didn't get out much. Then I bought this jacket and everything changed. Women came flocking to me from lands domestic and foreign. On the 245 day sailboat voyage home, I was attacked by a shark. I knew it was the jacket he was after giving up the jacket in exchange for my life. 5 stars Amazon Customer 69 Shop the perfect Gift this holiday on Amazon.
- [59:13]
Sprite/Coca-Cola Advertiser
What a matchup we got y'.
- [59:15]
Richard Garfield
All.
- [59:15]
Sprite/Coca-Cola Advertiser
This is that classic HBCU vibe. Non stop action. The band is rocking and the crowd lit. Chance echo drum beat. Everybody showing that school pride. Game like this. Yeah, it caught calls for an ice cold Coca Cola. Ah, crisp and refreshing. That's a game changer right there. Yeah, that taste always hits the right note. Just like the band at halftime. And just like that, we're back at it. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere and in ice cold Coca Cola. That's a winning combo no matter the sport, no matter the yard. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work. So grab a Coca Cola and keep that HBCU pride going.
- [59:59]
Richard Garfield
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.