Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford

Episode: "They fall behind and are slowly crushed" – Board Games and Economics with Richard Garfield
Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Tim Harford
Guest: Richard Garfield (creator of Magic: The Gathering, game designer, mathematician)

Overview

In this episode, Tim Harford welcomes Richard Garfield, the pioneering game designer behind Magic: The Gathering, King of Tokyo, and many other influential games. The conversation explores the intersection of games, economics, and society, with deep dives into the philosophy and mechanics of game design, the economic principles that underpin the games we play, and the real-world analogy of Universal Basic Income (UBI) in an age of automation. Listeners' questions, ranging from playtesting to artwork to game adaptations in fiction, further enrich this thoughtful and playful discussion.

Main Themes and Purpose

• Examining how board games, especially those designed by Garfield, reflect and teach economic and societal principles.
• Debating the merits and challenges of Universal Basic Income (UBI) as automation potentially displaces jobs, drawing analogies to game dynamics.
• Illuminating the creative process and decisions behind game mechanics, theme, and playtesting.
• Exploring the impact and interpretations of games in popular culture and storytelling.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Trigger: UBI, Automation, & Economic Anxiety

(02:57–06:19)

• Richard Garfield wrote in after a previous episode on AI and Universal Basic Income (UBI), feeling that the discussion hadn’t properly considered UBI as a solution to technological unemployment.
• Tim and Richard articulate their positions:
  • Tim: The economic scenario where automation renders most people’s labor obsolete is unprecedented and thus speculative.

    "We've never been anywhere like that before. So everything we do is kind of speculative." (04:43, Tim Harford)

  • Richard: Skeptical that "everybody losing their jobs" will actually happen, given 200 years of tech progress, but still finds UBI worth serious discussion as a solution.

    "The idea of more or less everybody losing their jobs—I'm skeptical of...but that's what I think." (05:05, Richard Garfield)

2. The Magic of Game Design: Origins and Philosophy

(07:19–12:24)

• Richard’s love for games ignited with Dungeons and Dragons, which shattered conventional boundaries by lacking explicit victory conditions and putting narrative control in players’ hands.

  "Dungeons and Dragons blew my mind. It was just a complete revelation for me. ...Its value...was really showing the range of what could be done with games." (07:19, Richard Garfield)

• He was always fascinated by the connections between types of games—from tabletop to sports to cards—a perspective that led to innovation across genres.
• Garfield espouses a "fuzzy" definition of games, resisting attempts to strictly categorize them.

  "There are things that are more or less game like, but that you're not going to have a precise definition. There's always going to be fuzziness." (11:41, Richard Garfield)

3. The Creation and Economics of Magic: The Gathering

(12:24–15:08)

• Magic’s unique feature: players bring different cards to play, leading to endless possibilities and an emergent "economy" of cards—something both intentional and surprising for Garfield.

  "It was a surprise to me as much as anyone how the idea took off." (13:57, Richard Garfield)

• He prefers calling it a "trading card game" over "collectible card game," as the latter overemphasizes collection/speculation over play.
• Magic’s in-game economy and real-world speculation have produced both thriving community engagement and challenges with accessibility.

  “The economics of the game is fascinating. I have a friend whose thesis, economic thesis, was entirely about Magic.” (14:58, Richard Garfield)

4. Trading, Economics, and Human Behavior in Games

(15:08–16:03)

• Tim notes that gains from trade exist in games like Monopoly, echoing real economic principles, but most casual players don’t seek trades.
• Garfield emphasizes the designer’s responsibility to account for how people actually play, not just theoretically optimal play—a lesson for economics as well as game design.

  “If they play in a way which is in some theoretical sense not optimum and they end up having a miserable time, that's a fault of the game, not the players.” (15:38, Richard Garfield)

5. Universal Basic Income as a “Catch-Up” Mechanic

(16:03–25:23)

• Richard presents the hypothetical: What if automation made human labor largely economically worthless? How, then, do we distribute the fruits of automation?
• Tim explains how UBI equivalent systems already exist (i.e., state pensions), but the issue is transitioning to a world where consumption isn’t tied to labor.
• Richard draws a game-design analogy: UBI as a "catch-up feature"—a system to prevent players (citizens) from falling so far behind they can't enjoy or participate in the game (society).

  "I like to look at it as a catch up feature. In games, when you fall too far behind, you can feel like you can't contribute, can't participate in the game..." (23:14, Richard Garfield)

  • Good catch-up features encourage continued participation, but shouldn’t be "leaned on" to the point of no engagement in play (work).
• Both agree that universal, rather than conditional, benefits tend to be more broadly supported and effective (see state pension, NHS, etc.)

  “I think that's almost a necessary ingredient of getting it to work.” (25:18, Richard Garfield)

6. Game Development: Inspiration, Iteration, and Playtesting

(29:24–34:44)

• Garfield’s design process is typically iterative (“make a prototype and play it”), though Magic began with a rare eureka moment.

  “It is not worth my time to try to analyze everything up front, that it is much better use of time to make a prototype and play it.” (30:06, Richard Garfield)

• Themes often come second to mechanics, but he also works the other way (e.g., "The Hunger" started from a theme-joke “Fat Dracula”).
• Playtesting involves a mix of 'power' gamers and casual players to ensure that the game is enjoyable for all—not just optimized for the most experienced.

  “You shouldn't design this game for the best players and assume it's going to work out for everybody else.” (32:59, Richard Garfield)

• Iterative feedback leads to refining or sometimes abandoning mechanics that don’t work for wide audiences.

7. Collaborating with Artists

(34:44–37:15)

• Garfield prefers giving artists creative freedom, providing minimal direction initially to allow their imagination to shape the game’s aesthetic.

  “My favorite way to work with artists is to give them as much room to work as possible because they're generally in art, because they're creative.” (35:25, Richard Garfield)

• For Magic, this led to a diverse visual style, though some standardization eventually became necessary for consistency.
• Asked for a dream artist to collaborate with, Garfield chooses Escher, admiring his playful approach to rules and illusions.

8. Physical vs. Digital Games and Speculative Bubbles

(37:40–40:30)

• Garfield notes that face-to-face play is essential for community and engagement, especially in collectible games, but digital games (like Hearthstone) bring unique opportunities.

  "The community which you develop with it is critical and is much more critical with these massively networked games like Magic..." (38:43, Richard Garfield)

• He observes a possible “collectibles bubble,” paralleling bubbles in other markets, and recounts deliberate efforts to stabilize Magic’s market by increasing supply.

9. Games in Popular Culture

(44:24–47:07)

• Garfield and Tim discuss favorite game-inspired stories: - Poker movies ("Rounders", "Cincinnati Kid"), "Queen’s Gambit" (chess), "Tron" (video games), "Player of Games" by Iain M. Banks, “Ender’s Game,” Cory Doctorow’s “For the Win,” and “The Hunger Games.”
• Possible Magic: The Gathering movie? Garfield’s answer: There’s always a chance, but he’s not holding his breath.

10. The Seriousness (and Irony) of Board Game Morality: Monopoly as Capitalist Critique

(47:07–51:16)

• Listener asks why Monopoly fails as anti-capitalist critique, while "The Farming Game" succeeds in teaching about hardship.
• Tim argues that challenge is essential in a good game; Monopoly didn’t survive as a cooperative critique because it was unengaging.
• Garfield adds that putting players in the “villainous” capitalist role makes them root for their own success:

  “She did put the players in the role of being the capitalist... If I was aiming to make people see how bad it is to tear down cities, then I wouldn't have chosen that approach.” (49:23, Richard Garfield)

• Yet, Monopoly may accidentally critique capitalism, as players “fall behind and are slowly crushed”—a direct allusion to economic inequality.

  "There's a lot of people who really dislike [Monopoly] ... because they fall behind and then they're slowly crushed and they don't feel like they can get out of it. ... That kind of is a critique of capitalism." (49:42, Richard Garfield)

11. Holiday Game Recommendations

(51:16–53:04)

• Richard recommends “Hive Mind” for big gatherings—a social game where players try to think alike for points.
• Tim enjoys Christmas-themed tabletop roleplay games with his group, emphasizing the variety of social, collaborative play experiences.

12. Looking Ahead: Garfield’s New Projects

(54:20–55:38)

• Garfield is developing “auto-battler” digital games (Vanguard Exiles, Chaos Agents) that blend strategic board game sensibilities with automated digital play.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Richard on game design and real economics:

  “If people are playing in a way which isn’t necessarily optimum, but that's the way they want to play, then it should still be a fun game...you shouldn't design this game for the best players and assume it's going to work out for everybody else.” (32:59–33:44)

• On UBI as catch-up, and why universality matters:

  “If it's a citizen's dividend...the people who do have work...won't feel like, ‘Oh, I shouldn't be participating because I'm denying myself this dividend.’” (24:03–24:37)

• On Monopoly's real feedback:

  “There's a lot of people who really dislike [Monopoly] because they fall behind and then they're slowly crushed...[which] is a critique of capitalism.” (49:42–50:45)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:57 – Tim introduces Richard Garfield
• 07:19 – Richard on discovering Dungeons & Dragons and the definition of "game"
• 12:24 – Magic: The Gathering’s origin, mechanics, and economic insights
• 16:03 – Trading in games, real vs. optimal play, and UBI scenario intro
• 20:09 – Tim explores UBI as a policy response to automation
• 23:14 – Richard’s “catch-up feature” analogy for UBI
• 29:24 – Listener Q&A: game design inspiration, playtesting, collaboration with artists, digital vs. tabletop play
• 44:24 – Favorite games in popular culture (TV, movies, books)
• 47:07 – Monopoly as a failed board game critique of capitalism
• 51:16 – Holiday game recommendations
• 54:20 – Garfield’s upcoming projects

Takeaways for Listeners

• Game design is both art and science, blending player psychology, fairness, and economic principles.
• Lessons from games can illuminate real-world challenges—from economic inequality to the disruption of automation.
• Challenges and universality in systems (whether benefits or board games) foster engagement and resilience; neglecting them breeds discontent and disengagement.
• The heart of a good game lies not just in its rules, but in its capacity to draw people together, challenge assumptions, and, sometimes, reflect uncomfortable realities about ourselves and our societies.

For fans of policy, games, or simply great conversation, this episode is a treasure trove of ideas, analogies, and practical wisdom about playing, designing, and understanding both games and economics.