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615: Jrue Holiday's Effectiveness CRITICAL to Celtics Repeat Chances w/ Bobby Manning
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- [00:04]
Bobby Manning
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets. Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
- [00:27]
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- [01:22]
Evan Valenti
Foreign March 15 and this is Celtic Speed on CLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage, the Boston Celtics. I'm Evan Valenti. Solo today. Episode 615 features the Boston Sports Journals and CLS Media's very own Bobby Manning. And today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of CLNS Media. Download that Prize Picks app today and use the code CLNS to get $50 instantly when you play. $5. Welcome in everybody. Evan Valente here. Solo today here on Celtic Speed. It's a Saturday coming off a Celtics win. The middle of a back to back Celtics win in Miami. 103.91. Improved up 48 and 19 on the season, punched their ticket for the postseason once again. Lots to get to here on this show and today joined by a guy that's just kind of all over the place in terms of he's on the road, he's at home, he's got a lot going on. You see him on the Garden Report for CLNS Media. Another Syracuse guy which I'm sure a lot of you are thrilled about. Bobby Manning. Bobby, good morning. How you doing brother?
- [02:43]
Bobby Manning
Good morning. Bummed about the Syracuse season but still a lot of hope for the Celtics ahead.
- [02:49]
Evan Valenti
Look man, we're a football school now. That's how I've been justifying this whole thing. And there's a football school now, have been. So for quite some time. We're moving forward with that. I'm not, I'll be honest with you. I haven't watched too much Syracuse basketball this year, although they haven't given me much to watch. Do you feel better about next year, just real quick?
- [03:07]
Bobby Manning
Yeah. I hope they're bringing back Autry. I'm fine with that, I guess. Was it the best year from him or any of the players on the team? I'm sure the team's gonna completely overhaul like college teams do every. Every season now. So that's probably for the best, given just how bad it looked this year. But there is a lot of talent coming in. I think there's some hope that talent could stay. So I guess my take is that it can't get much worse than it was this year. They were. They were hard to even watch this season.
- [03:35]
Evan Valenti
I barely watched you, to be honest with you. But we're not here to talk about Syracuse basketball. We already talk about basketball, though. It's funny, I was coming up with the rundown for today, and I'm sitting here thinking. I'm like, all right, I'll get stuff I want to get to from the OKC game. Because, you know, as you and I were talking about before the show, not a lot left in terms of, like, meaningful games left for this particular team. So I like to use that OKC game as a little bit of a, you know, a launching point for some of the discussion that we're going to have on today's show. And as Adam often likes to remind people, this is a big picture show. We're not here grinding tape, game to game. That's not what we do. We like to take themes and story lines and apply them for, you know, bigger, broader purposes. But given the game last night and given the performance of one player last night, I thought it'd be important if we start here. And considering the Celtics were shorthanded in Miami, I thought last night, I should say Friday night was a reminder, Bobby, and maybe you can expand this a little bit. Drew Holliday is really important to the success and the future of this team. He had his best game this season, I think, by far, last night. 25 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists. His typical, you know, defensive stalwart stuff. But the points, the shots, him being able to contribute offensively was a nice, big lift for them. And I've talked about this. The importance of Drew Holiday last year, I thought was huge for their success in the postseason. And I think this year, given his up and down status, he's been out of the lineup, he's got Mallet finger, all these things. It's been, it's been easy to forget what a good Jrue Holiday does for this team. And I'll phrase it this way, given the landscape of this team and the in the uncertainty of whatever is going on with Kristaps Porzingis, I thought last night, Bobby was a huge reminder that this team, if they're not going to have Kristaps Porzingis and maybe if they have him, it still might be this way anyway. But if they don't have a Drew Holiday, not the same, not the guy that we saw in Miami, but a similar version of that, if they don't have that guy Bobby, I don't think they can win the title. Am I crazy?
- [05:42]
Bobby Manning
I think that's fair. And so I have no concerns about Holiday and some of the numbers declining this year against the average opponent. And that's what the Heat are the average opponent at this point, maybe a first round opponent potentially here. And you saw you could go after Tyler here on some of the smaller guards there, back his way down. I like the way that he got to the basket early and then use that to get outside and hit his threes. And it was amazing looking back on it because that Memphis game in December was such a landmark moment for him this season where Grizzlies ignored him pretty aggressively, forced him in the 26 shots, 173 stuff he'd never really done before, at least in a Celtics uniform to that degree. And it was a disaster. And the game plan worked perfectly. And I know Joe after that game was saying, bring it on. We love to see this, we want to see more of this. But it did lead to a pretty rough stretch for him where he's shooting 44% from the field, 34 from three, just a little down from his career average, but not looking quite the same as he did last year on a lot of nights and missing quite a few games. I think he missed 13 games over that stretch since that loss to Memphis there. So this is the first time the Miami game since that Memphis night he scored 20 points, which is pretty crazy to think about there. It's 30, 40 games where he's in single digits, tens, teens. And you know, I know talk after the game last night was that he's still capable of this. If you get him enough shots, if you get him enough looks, if you find him enough rhythm early in These games. And he's doing it with the finger thing, as you mentioned there. So that's all a good sign because first round, second round, they're probably not going to need Holiday, Evan. But when you get to the Cavs, when you get to the Thunder Grizzlies, even if they end up in the Finals, some of these more elaborate defenses that you'll see that I think almost certainly are going to try to take advantage of Holiday's poor shooting this season to try to put more attention on other guys, he's going to have to make them pay. And the fact that he could shoot, you know, 15 times like he did in this game, eight threes, and be that efficient, be that big of a threat. And I think that's the thing, more than anything, Evan is. He just needs to be a threat. He doesn't have to score 20 points, he doesn't have to hit all these threes, but he needs to draw the defense in on him. And the way he shot the ball this season has made defenses a little more willing to play away from him, shift away from him. And a lot of times he's just parked in the corner. And whether he makes or misses those threes is going to decide if he has a big night. So I would like to see them over this final stretch here get a little more experimental in how they use him because he's obviously much more skilled than being a corner three point shooter.
- [08:27]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, and it's. You talk about him like taking advantage of mismatches down low. He's a really physical player. He's a good post player because of his strength in his lower body. He's able to kind of pin guys and keep them down there and keep them at bay and uses the rim to his advantage as well. And that's, you know, it's. There's a lot of things about Drew Holiday that are important. The corner three point shooting last year was a revelation. It was basically automatic. It was unbelievable. This year, as we all know, not nearly as. Not nearly as proficient from there. But I like that you said you got to get him more comfortable in the flow of the offense because, like, look, playoffs come, as we've seen lately in some of these high end games, the Cavs game, the Thunder game, the Nuggets game, the Lakers game, like a lot. Jason Tatum commands a ton of attention. And Jason's gotten very good at diagnosing where the defense is doing and figuring out the best case of action. A lot of that's going to be, you know, somebody's leaking off Drew Holiday to try and make Jason's life a little bit tougher. Well, Drew's gonna have a lot of open shots, and he's got to knock those down. This is a huge stat for Boston. Justin Turpin last night had this. Dick Leipe also had this. But when Drew Holiday scores 15 plus points in this with the Celtics, the C's are 50 and three. When it's at least 14. Okay, 50 wins, three losses. When it's 20 points, they're 11 and two. Now, I don't expect Drew Holiday to score 20 points a game that often, considering how many other guys on this team are a little bit more lethal offensively. But it shows you, like, a good Drew Holiday game leads to incredibly good success at a high clip with a lot of data. Like, it's not like, oh, they're, oh, they're, they're five and one or five and oh, with one. Drew scores X amount of points. No. 50 wins. When he scores 14 points or more. That's a significant chunk of change. And again, I'm not sitting here, I'm not claiming, I'm not clamoring that Drew Holiday has to be the focal point of anything. No, he stepped up last night when, or if I should say Friday night when Boston was undermanned. But to me, it just again illustrates how important having Drew Holiday healthy right. And in rhythm is to this team. And as you look at the landscape of things, Cleveland is going to be really tough when they meet in the Eastern Conference finals. If they end up playing OKC in the finals, that's not going to be a cakewalk. This is not going to be like last year, where Boston sleeps sleepwalks to their 18th title. This year will be really hard. It's going to take all hands on deck. And I'm of the belief that, well, last year, Drew Holiday's importance, I thought was like, not the. He wasn't the most important guy on the team. He wasn't the second most important guy on the team. Those Jalen and Jason, respectively. He was, I thought, for me, the third most important reason why they won this year. If that happens, that's great. But he still is really important to what they do. And Bobby, I think the numbers reflect that as you look at his scoring output. But it's also more about his defensive stuff, too. But as you look forward, if Jrue Holiday isn't knocking down those shots, they will not, and I'm saying right now, they will not win a title this year. It's impossible, considering how good the other teams are.
- [11:33]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, for sure. And I keep thinking of the Thunder. I hate to play that that series is inevitable because I do respect the Cavs to a high level. And the west is so crazy that the Thunder could even lose in round two or something like that. I don't think that would shock anyone, but I do feel like that's the most likely Finals matchup by far. And I watched a lot of film from that game. You go back and look at the first game, too, and it's interesting how they play out of the corners. Like they bring in their defenders from the corners. They're willing to give up corner threes. The Celtics really didn't take them in that first half. Then they went there in the second half, didn't hit them. But most of those 63 threes that they took against Oklahoma on Wednesday where above the break, tough shots. And it makes sense to me as I looked at it, because if you're helping out of the corners, it's the shortest distance to get back out to there. So even though that they were giving up the corners initially to pack the paint against Celtics, they were able to get back out and Drew struggled in both of those games to hurt Oklahoma. And you know, the one thing I heard coming out of that game, Evan, from someone with the team was we got a cut. And in that circumstance, it's another, I think, important note with Holiday is that he can cut. You know, he can set a screen and roll. I feel like that was the first basket he got against the Heat, was rolling off a white and finishing at the basketball. So there's just so many more different ways you can use them. And if defenses are going to try to manipulate the Celtics by playing off their shooters a little bit, obviously you got to take those shots and you got to be aggressive there, and he needs to hit him. But there's also other ways that he could try to beat defenses that are sagging off him a little bit. And he's so effective going to the basket, but more importantly going to the basket and passing out of there. And I feel like that's something they've underutilized the least with him is his ability to break down the defense a little bit off the dribble and then make a good pass out of there. And you saw that last on Friday against Miami, too, his ability to get inside and work the ball out there. So Oklahoma things ugly right now. They've really, really struggled offensively against that defense in particular. And I think when you look at the game so much of it is that the Thunder just able to really pinch the pain and have multiple bodies in there. So is it going to come down to shooting 63s? And if you hit him, you win and if you don't, you lose. Are there some other things you can do there? And I think in that game on Wednesday specifically and with Holiday, there's probably some other stuff you could do. Some ways to get him moving, some ways to put him in different positions that could have made him more of a threat there. But when you look at those two games, numbers are pretty ugly for him. Against Oklahoma, one of six in that January game where they couldn't score over four from three, then 4 10, 17 from three in that Oklahoma game on Wednesday, looking at the Cavs wins too, the numbers aren't pretty. Aside from that first game where he went 4 7. So he just hasn't been the same this year, Evan. And it's tough to tell if it's because he's banged up and he's playing, you know, so far into the Olympics last summer. And there's fatigue there and he's managing stuff. I know he did a pretty good interview with Forbes where he was talking about managing kind of like the meta this season, the exhaustion, the physical bumps and bruises that they're all dealing with here. And I think that's been a pretty significant part of their struggles at times this season. And he's rested so many games that I think that speaks for itself where he's at physically for this year. Plus the finger now. So I, I wonder if he's just declined a little bit over last year with the shooting or if he's just been so bumped and bruised that it's limited his ability to shoot. And if he can go into the playoffs fresher, we might see this version of him more often. I think the fact that he did this against Miami is a good sign that it's still in there somewhere. And he talked about that too.
- [15:16]
Evan Valenti
Yeah. And it's not just him that we that the cellox are doing this with. I mean the Al Horford thing, which I'll get into a little bit later if we have some time talk about how great Al Horford is. But like every once in a while and some of these big games, Al Horford, like just dials the clock back what feels like 10 years and it looks like, looks like 28 year old Al Horford, not 38 year old Al Horford. Yeah, similar here with Drew. And if, like that's, if that's what they're doing. I think everybody's kind of on board for that. I think that's something that we've talked about ad nauseam throughout the season. It's not about necessarily what their record is. Now that they've clinched the playoffs and they're pretty much locked into that two seed. No matter what happens the rest of the way, unless something completely catastrophic happens, they're locked in that two seed. As long as they just kind of stay the course. And how they manage the, the minutes of this team going forward is going to be a big task for Missoula. It's been a task all season long, but now that they have basically everything figured out, Tatum's gonna get some rest, Jalen's gonna get some rest, Holiday's gonna get some rest. I wonder if Porzingis will ever play again. You know, I will get some rest. Like they're gonna, some of these guys are gonna get some scheduled nights off and like, as, as we've talked about since the beginning of the, of the year, definitely on this show, like just get to the end of April with everybody in the roster feeling good about their, their, their health and rested and ready to rock and roll. Like I, I made this joke after the All Star break. Prichard Caton backed hand from Turks and Caicos and I was like, what? I and it was on fire to start like right after the All Star break. And I was like, tan Pritchard's like a top five player in the league. And if I were Joe Missoula the last like week of the league or the last two weeks, I would just tell Peyton, go back to Turks and Caicos where he stayed and go, go relax, get some sunshine, hang out on the beach and like just get rested up because is you look at again going forward, like Peyton is kind of critical to some of their success when it comes to later on in the playoffs and they might not need him to score a gajillion points off the bench, but those threes as they space the floor and try and keep everybody, you know, out on islands in certain areas of the court, like, that stuff's going to be really important. Drew Holiday knocking down corner threes is going to be really important to their success. Again, I don't think that they're, you know, you might get a 20 point game from Pritchard here and a 20 point game from Drew Holiday there, but it's more about making the defense respect where you are on the floor to keep everything as open as possible. And I'm of The mindset of, like, whatever you have to do to keep to, to make that happen is of the highest importance the rest of the season.
- [17:45]
Bobby Manning
Well, how often do you see Holiday not quite having it in a playoff game and Pritchard needing to play 30 minutes or closing? You know, he closed that Memphis game that we keep talking about here when Holiday kept getting dared to shoot and didn't have it that night. There's been a couple spots this season where they have flipped those two and I think they're willing to. And it might be the right move in certain spots to go with Pritchard if he has it going in a game in May or April. Try to see different combinations there if a team's ignoring Holiday because Prichard's been awesome in the corner this year. He's spaced the floor incredibly going back even beyond this year in those catch and shoot situations. But there's not a massive track record of playoff success for him at this point. I mean, this is the first year where he actually looks like, you know, that six man, 20, 30 minutes per game kind of guy. So that's going to be interesting to me is just how often they swap those two because Pritchard's having an amazing season. Holiday's having a little less of a, you know, good season by his standards.
- [18:48]
Evan Valenti
Yeah. And. Well, I want to get into some more things about the Oklahoma City Thunder game, but before we do that one, take a quick break. Tight. Today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the best place to get real money sports action. With over 10 million members and billions of dollars in award winnings, Prize Picks has made daily fantasy sports accessible to all. Just pick more or less on at least two players for a shot to win up to 1000 times your cash. It's 13 zeros times your cash. Run your game all season long on Prize Picks and folks, the flex play talk about all the time. It's because your guy here, oftentimes it's like two out of three and it gets really annoying or as you follow the Celtics the rest of the way. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna give my, my picks in a minute here. But like, we're not sure if Tatum's gonna play or if Jalen Brown's gonna play or whoever's gonna play in some of these games the end of the season because of rest and injuries and all those things. And with Prize Picks and that flex play, you can still cash out even if your lineup isn't perfect. You can double your money Even if one of your picks doesn't hit. And Bobby, let me know how you feel about some of these, because we got some games tonight. We recording on a Saturday morning. Some games tonight. I like some of these points, rebounds and assist numbers because sometimes it can be kind of fun. Now, last week it screwed me. I thought Nicola Jokic, 51 and a half less than that would be easy. Of course, he went on to have 70 with the 30, 20, 20 games. I was a little off on that. I had to take some lumps for that. But that's okay.
- [20:17]
Bobby Manning
You went less than Jokic.
- [20:19]
Evan Valenti
Well, 51 1/2 was a huge. Of course he. He had ended up with 70, which is crazy. But we're going to try this again. We're going to start with Cade Cunningham and we're going to stick with points, rebounds and assists with Kate Cunningham. We're doing less than 41 and a half and they're playing the Thunder Saturday night. And the reason for that is I think the Thunder have the best perimeter defense in the league. Cade's been unbelievably good this year, but I'm just trusting in the defense of Oklahoma City against the Pistons. I like less than 41 and a half there. Jamal Murray more than two and a half threes against the Wizards on Saturday night. I think Denver, they're in a little bit of a dog fight for positioning in the Western Conference. Jamal Murray average and I think what, 24, 25 a game this year. If he's going to score that many points, probably going to have a couple of threes in there. I'll take the. The more than on that. And then Jason Tatum more than 20, 28 and a half points against the Nets on a Saturday night. We know Jason Tatum shows out for road games, Bobby, that's kind of his thing. He's better on the road than he is at home. Any one of those numbers spooky A little bit.
- [21:27]
Bobby Manning
After hearing the Yokich thing for sure how that one went for you. I love Cade. I'm gonna go the opposite there to you on that one. Murray scares me a little bit this season. He's had some stretches where he hasn't been as hot, as consistent, so he's a guy I'd usually go less with there, especially with some of the higher numbers. But Tatum Saturday night, I will agree with you on that one. No Jalen potentially there. He missed Friday's game with an injury, so could be all on Tatum's hands for the back to back. And one good thing you mentioned it with Evan 2. With it, Evan 2 is he's always going to play more often than not. So you never worry about. He's almost always in the lineup. So that helps here too when you're, when you're picking more on him.
- [22:11]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, if, if I somehow happen to hit all these, that's good for five times my money. 20 bucks turns into 100 just like that with prize picks and getting your money couldn't be any easier. Little as 15 minutes. Just watch the money roll into your account. And like I know Andrew Callahan uses Venmo, I use Venmo when we're using prize picks, it's the easiest way. It's right in the account. Boom. Simple, done, painless. There's nothing easier than that. So download the app today, use the code CLNS to get free $50 instantly after you play your first five dollar lineup. Again, download the app today, use the code CLNS to get $50 instantly after you play your 1st $5 lineup. That's price picks. Run your game. Evan Valenti, Bobby Manning Saturday morning getting ready for Nets and Celtics from Brooklyn tonight as we record as a programming note, a little bit of a home at home here. Bobby's joining me here on. I'll be joining Bobby on the Garden Report later tonight with Noah as well. Looking forward to that. It's a good time. Always on the Garden Report. Always a fun time, getting people timeing in, hopefully after a win time. But we'll see as we get going. But Bobby, I, I spent a lot of time yesterday thinking about this show and trying to come up with certain topics. I want to get on this show and obviously again as a big picture show, we do like to focus on the bigger things and one of the biggest games of the year and what was the most, I know it was a loss. One of the most entertaining games of the year was Wednesday night Oklahoma City vs. Boston at the Garden. Boston loses the game, which, hey, Oklahoma City is an unbelievable team having a historic season. So there's no shame in that. But coming off of that game, I think everybody would agree the big storyline was, look, Jalen Brown was clearly not great in that game and if you want to go up and down the line, I think the blame starts with Jaylen. He admitted after the game that night that that Oklahoma City was the more physical team that night and that he needed to recalibrate a little bit and, and be better the next time if they do happen to play again. And look, I thought first half Jalen was, was it's about as bad as you could get against that team. I thought in the second half he got a little bit more comfortable, he got a little bit in the paint more. You think he was perfect on shots inside the three point arc in the second half, whereas anything outside of, you know, behind the three point line he was bad. But I thought it was notable he got inside a little bit more, he looked more comfortable. Use his strength a little more into the basket. And as we look at Jalen, like, look, I don't think it's anybody any this is not like breaking news. Boston will not be the Thunder if Jalen Brown is not good. I don't think I'm breaking any news there. But I thought he got more comfortable in the second half and showed that, like, hey, I can adjust a little bit. Do you agree with that?
- [24:57]
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- [26:28]
Bobby Manning
For sure. And I, I always like his aggressiveness. I like his mindset of trying to open the paint finish through tough defenses. And he's a tough shot maker, Evan and we're so used to him hitting those ridiculously hard shots that I think a lot of times when it doesn't go in, you're like, what's he doing out there? And it doesn't look as clean when those shots aren't going in. And he took some challenging ones early and I think that played into the Thunder's hands. He probably would have been better suited passing out a lot of those spots. But it's a tough decision when you're playing in those crowds and they're trying to move into the pain and collapse and then go out to the shooters there. So that's a special defense in Oklahoma City. I was looking at it a couple of weeks ago. Their raw numbered defensive rating, which is obviously miles ahead of the rest of the league right now, I think is the best going back to 2020, when you look back at all the past seasons. So they're the best defense of this decade so far and you see it like they're able to take away the paint and get out to the three point line if opponents are shooting 33 from three against them, which is the lowest number in the league. So they're ridiculous. It's no surprise that in this game they forced the Celtics into tough shots and inefficiency, namely Brown in the first game. They forced a million turnovers in that second half on the Celtics and just had them completely out of sorts. And so I guess there's a couple positives I take from this one. Despite it being a tough loss and, you know, it being 02 and there being real concerns about this matchup, I think the Celtics did get on the offensive glass in the second half in a pretty big way. And that's the Thunder's big weakness still, is that they can't really grab a rebound in their own end. It felt like the Thunder were a little nervous about going to that double big look against Boston. They showed the stat for the game. Evan 38 opponents are shooting from three when the Thunder go double big with Hartenstein and Holmgren there. So I think that's going to be a difficult look for them to go to in a matchup against Boston. And even though they won without Jalen Williams, I still look at them and say, there's one guy there that you need to take away if Williams isn't rolling or he's not available for a game like that. I know Chet was awesome in this game, too, but he's not really quite a create your own shot kind of guy. The only guy on that team when Williams is out, who's creating his own shot is Shea. And that shocked me. Evan, I don't know how you feel about it. I thought for sure we'd see Tatum on him. You think back to that road game last year, and Tatum held him to over three, I think, in the fourth quarter or over six, some number like that. He shut him out from the field after he took over that assignment and back to Jalen. I know he embraces these matchups. I know that he really likes to, you know, demand the top opponent on the opposing team. And I think that was a big part of this game because we mostly saw Jalen on Shea, and it didn't go that well, especially early when it looked like Jalen was a little physically limited. Shea was getting by him with relative ease. You saw a couple possessions where Tatum got onto him down the stretch run of the game, but there really weren't that many. And I know everybody's reaction to that was all, they're saving it for the finals, But I was like, why not? Like, it's not like it's some, like, crazy scheme that you're holding, you know, behind your sleeve right there. It's just switching the matchups and seeing how Tatum does on them, but you never really saw it in this game.
- [29:46]
Evan Valenti
The thing for me is I'm. I'm not quite sure anybody in the league can really stay in front of Shay. He's one of the fastest problems. Yeah, I don't know if he's the fastest guy. I go back and forth between him, and, like, when Maxi's really, really humming, like guys that are north, south, that.
- [30:01]
Bobby Manning
Are impossible, he does this move, Evan, and it's kind of crazy to watch in person. He gets to the spot he wants to get to. His body's leaning forward, his arms are leaning forward, and he has this real, like, forward lurching, like, stance when he gets into his shot. And so he's able to get into contact, like, from any position there. Even if the defender is really trying to back off and avoid the contact, he's still able to initiate that contact through his Shot and draw the follow calls there. And like there were plays in that first game, especially on Oklahoma where Pritchard just like throwing his hands up, like, what do I do? There's nothing I can do here because he's just gonna. He's gonna draw the contact.
- [30:39]
Evan Valenti
Peyton, you're not the only one this year, trust me. A lot of guys have fallen to that fate as, as you know, there's a. Obviously sga, one of the two MVP candidates of the year, and he's had just a ridiculous year. It's hard. It's hard to stay in front of him. I don't know if that's the Jalen. I don't know if it's the right guy for that matchup. Again, I don't know if the Celtics have anything for that matchup other than the fact that they try double team a little.
- [31:00]
Bobby Manning
Could do a better job.
- [31:02]
Evan Valenti
It's possible with the length, you know, because Tatum's so long and he can recover a little bit like Derrick White's the best recover. Block a shot, alter a shot guy maybe like in the league. But even like just because of the speed of Shay, it's hard to catch back up. Having a little extra length there for Tatum might help. You know, there's going to be some double teams to get the ball out of his hands. Make other guys kill you. To Oklahoma City's credit, Lou Dort hit some shots, you had Isaiah Joe hit some shots, you had Chad Holgram chip in. Like, they got nice contributions from other guys. Like they, they. That's the thing about this Oklahoma City team. If you go back to last year in the playoffs, they lost to Dallas because they could. They didn't hit threes and they were open. Like, it's not like they weren't open. They just missed them. And Dallas was fortunate that they did. And know they go on to the finals in Boston. Boat races them to a 4:1. You know, NBA Finals win. If Oklahoma City's hitting threes, this is going to be a really difficult team to beat. And Shea obviously being the engine that makes everything go. But like, you know what helps out as well is when Boston's hitting shots. Like, I think Pritchard and hauser were combined 2 for 12 from 3 point range in that game. Jalen was. Was awful from 3 point range in that game. Like outside of Jason Tatum, who I want to get to in a minute, like, I just, I think Boston just flat out didn't have it from beyond the three point arc. I know in the first half 15 of 36. Insane number. But that cooled off and when that cooled off, they didn't quite have enough to keep Oklahoma City within striking distance. And I, I. One of the things I really love about Shea, and this will be a Tatum point kind of in tandem with this. One of the things I really like about Shea is if you go back to that game and it was third quarter, Shay hits a three, it's 77 to 68. I think at that particular time in the game. And I watched like, it felt like to me that Shea was trying to end the game in the third quarter because he knew, like, if I can get this to 20, this game's over. Given their defense has been so good, I know Boston's great offensively, but 20 point deficit against the Thunder in the second half is going to be impossible to come back for him. I just liked the bite of the Englishman. But the thing was Tatum matched him shot for shot during that stretch. You know, shade come down, hit a three. Tatum come down, hit a basket. Shay would come back down the other way, get a two point shot, Tatum would come down and match that. Tatum felt like, felt like Tatum understood the moment a little bit. And I thought Tatum was the only guy really in the game that could do whatever he wanted on Boston side and, and be effective with it. Like Jaylen was, you know, turning the ball over, not shooting the ball well in the first half. I thought, I thought Jason, I know it was 33. What was it? 33, 8 and 8 felt more impactful than that in that game. And if I'm Joe Missoula and I'm thinking about a potential future matchup with them, I think Tatum kind of controlling things maybe on both ends as he suggests, like, maybe he's the, what they do with Shay. But like Jason Tatum in that, in that game, in that series is going to be queen of the chessboard stuff for me. And it's going to be super important on both ends to try and do whatever he can to stop Oklahoma City from, from doing what they do so well.
- [34:18]
Bobby Manning
And I think that's been the story this year for, for much of it. Evan is. Tatum's reached another level in the games. We've all seen the usage stats and all of that. When, when Tatum's a little more involved, they've been better. And some of their best games this year have been those massive takeovers. Let Tatum handle things kind of games. And it's tough for him, it's tough for them as a team because you're always balancing the Ball time, the shots, all that stuff between the two stars there, the rotations, it feels like they've been tinkering with those guys rotations constantly this year. And you know, now that Tatum's back in the driver's seat a little bit there with the full first and third quarters, you suddenly have that early fourth quarter issue there. And I thought a big part of this game was that early fourth quarter, the Thunder come out and win that stretch, even though Shai off the floor has been a really bad look for them this year. So that's something that they're all going to have to calibrate a little bit depending on the matchup, depending on, you know, what they're both doing in the playoffs. I think pretty clearly Brown looks hampered by these injuries and I just, I just hope he's able to sit out for a little while here and get right. I know these guys want to play through everything. I know that they want to gut it out for a matchup like this, but Brown limited them in this game and he took it on the chin after the game. I like the accountability from him after the game too. So I think he's in a good mindset in terms of coming out of some of these poor performances and improving upon them. But there are some nights in game where he has the sense this is Tatum's night defer to him because I, I think the biggest thing in this matchup, Evan, is that there's such a matchup hunting team and there weren't matchups available to them. And I think that hurt Jalen more than anything because he's so used to overpowering defenders and he couldn't do that especially with multiple defenders behind those initial one on one matchup. So he put himself in a lot of bad positions in this game. Tatum was the only Celtic I feel like who consistently beat his matchup. You know, even in the shots he took over homegrown that didn't go in there. He was pulling Homegrown out of the pain and they were getting offensive rebounds on his misses. So he was in full control for much of this game here. I know he slowed down a little bit late too, but they got to be pretty deliberate offensively in this matchup and some of the other better defensive schemes that they're going to see late in the playoffs here. They can't slow down, they can't get into stagnant offensive sets where they're just trying to beat one matchup. They have to keep it moving, they have to be active in their cutting and Their movement and their driving out there. And they just got a little stagnant in this game and that first Oklahoma City game too. I mean, there's such a great offensive and it's shocking to see them struggle the way they did in both of those games.
- [36:52]
Evan Valenti
It's also a credit to Oklahoma City too because those guys are just incredibly good defensive everything.
- [36:57]
Bobby Manning
Everything.
- [36:58]
Evan Valenti
I know. And the one thing that I last year endorsed. Burke harped on this, I think during the, the Oklahoma City game on Wednesday. The, the, the rotations are crisp and they challenge everything. And if you look at, if you think about last year and they, they played Dallas, you know, in Dallas does a great job getting, generating corner threes and hitting corner threes against them. Right. You were talking earlier about how they were giving up corner threes to Boston. But the difference this year is the recovery speed is much better on Oklahoma City this year. They give up that corner three, but they got guys that can go out and get guys off the line or at least challenge the shot. And that's scary stuff. Again, if you're not hitting shots, those corner threes sometimes can be a great release valve for, for teams including Boston. Again you. Last year you have Drew Holland in the corner automatic. This year you have Payton. Pritchard's been efficient from there. I feel like Sam Houser when he's rolling is a great, you know, spot up shooter from the corner. Al to me feels like a better like above the break guy than a corner guy. But like the, the Celtics have certain guys that feast in the corners and if you're not hitting that shot, it's going to be impossible to be Oklahoma City again, especially with the way that they recover. But I do want to get back to Tatum for just a second because one of the things about Tatum and Brown over their careers in Boston is Brown's leap comes in the off season when he puts in all this work and he comes back and he is good. He's better at something this year. I think his dribble is a little bit tighter this year. I think he's obviously a little bit stronger this year and finishing through contact a little bit better. Even though his rim numbers aren't as good as they were last year. Tatum's leap always comes in the middle of the season. It's funny to watch because, like, it's a guy that clearly puts in work in the off season. Not saying he doesn't, but he learned something throughout the season that helps him later. And one of the things this year that I have really Enjoyed. And I've been clamming, clamoring this for years. We saw in the playoffs last year, but you're seeing it way more this year. Is this just manipulation of defenses as a playmaker and a facilitator? And I always Suggested in the 2022 finals, I know they lost to the, to the warriors, but I was like, when Jason Tatum's the point guard of this team, this team is going to just take off. And now that he's way more comfortable manipulating defenses, you see how easy it is for him to not only get his own, but to get everybody else involved and you to instill trust in the teammates throughout. Everybody on the floor with him. Like, one of the things that I love is, and I'm glad Sean Grandy pointed this out on Barrett's podcast last week on off the pike was you're seeing Missoula throw Tatum out there with just like four random guys and them having a ton of success. I mean, there, there have been times where it's it and this is a rare. You know, there wasn't a lot of these moments, but it was like Cornett Shireman, Pritchard Tatum and in Hauser or something like that. You're like, why is, why is Joe Missoula making this so hard for Jason Tatum, not giving him enough firepower out there to keep. But to Tatum's credit, they always, they always end up being. Being positive in that particular regard. So my question comes back to this. This mini leap that we've seen from Tatum mid season, I think has been remarkable from a playmaking standpoint. I think he's getting better at getting to his spots, pulling up or getting in the basket. Is there more to come here or is this the final version of Jason Tatum? Because right now I'd argue He's top five in the league and to be first team all NBA again this year. But he's only 27 years old and there's I think, still more to. More to come here with Tatum and his growth as a playmaker.
- [40:42]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, I could see another level beyond this. I think most guys primes are in that 27 to 31 range. And of course, he just turned 27. I always remember that, Evan, because we were both born the same month, me and him. But the leap I see from him is going to be in that passing category. And it started this year. I think it developed and expanded as the season went on. I think his ability to play long stretches and be in control for longer minutes of these games I think has allowed him to grow in comfort in that role. And when you look at one point recently this season, I think the Tatum on Brown off numbers where Tatum's in full control of the offense are like a plus 13 per 100 there. So I think that reflects, like you said, even in some weird lineups that they can get by with his ability to make plays for other guys almost.
- [41:31]
Evan Valenti
To the level of.
- [41:34]
Bobby Manning
I don't want to go there at this point, but the role he's playing is similar to what LeBron would do for his teams now at this point. And it's not quite to that degree, but it's. It's a similar line of thinking in that I'm going to absorb all the pressure, I'm going to take on these elaborate schemes that I'm seeing and some of the ways I bend this defense and that's just going to completely free up other guys. And the difficulty of the passes he's making, that too. I'm trying to remember the skip pass he threw to Pritchard late in one of these games in transition. I think it was against the Knicks the last time they played them. It was a critical play and it was a difficult one to read in real time running on the break. And it set Pritchard up with this perfect three. And you see him now in this two man game with White. You see him in some of the pick and rolls with Cornett. When we look back on the season, Evan, it's going to be those passing highlights, the plays he made out of difficult spots. I think the best play on Friday against the Heat was Mitchell getting all up on him. Extra pressure came. He's losing control of the ball above the break a little bit and just really recovers the ball strongly and fires it out. I think to Drew for a three or someone to his left there after he finally got control of the bus. So ball control, such an important part of his game at this point. He never turns it over anymore, rarely. And that was obviously the biggest problem on that warriors run that you mentioned there and now there's actually a level of thinking and anticipation and I just think finesse against a variety of different coverages. And we have this debate all the time. And Will Hardy had some interesting things to say about it before that Jazz game on Monday. Do you single cover him or do you throw the extra pressure at him knowing that he's going to pass out of that and may and use his teammates to beat you? And Will was like, oh, you know, it's so tough because you, you'll Double them. And maybe he hits a bunch of shots in that spot and you're like, oh, you shouldn't have doubled them or you single cover them. And it's like, oh, you know, we could have brought more pressure. There's always a second guess for opposing coaches coming out of that. And I think a lot of the time, especially after the game on the Garden report, we're like, why'd they double them? Tatum was just passing out of that all night. But then a team will single cover them and he'll score 40. And you're like, oh, they probably should have power up more pressure against them. So you can't do either of those things really anymore against him. And that, to me, is going to be that next leap where he's just beating any coverage any time. And he reinstilled confidence in me, Evan, that he could win that MVP one day. Maybe when it's just his show or he reaches just another level with all the stuff we're talking about here. And shot making is going to be a big part of it too, I think, if he ever does get there. But I was reaching a point going into this season where I'm just like, all right, you have these Jokic's and you have all these guys run their own team. Tatum might just never get the opportunity to have the kind of season where he's got the numbers and the usage and all that to win mvp. But this year I think he's going to finish third. And next year, year after that, I think you can start to sell yourself a little bit that he could do it just based on what we've seen from him, when he's in full control this season.
- [44:42]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, he's been ridiculous. I don't want to, I. We got to get out of here quickly, but I don't want to get out of here without acknowledging because again, we. I kind of talked about it earlier how amazing Al Horford is. Then some of these big games. I can't believe what I'm seeing. We do this every year. We're like, ah, this is going to be the. Al can't do this. And he's just still doing it. And Noah wrote a great piece about Horford's mother this week. Shout out to her. We'll have her on the Garden Report later. But I just don't want this show to be over without us just acknowledging the greatness of Al Horford, a future NBA famer, a guy that I don't know about you. I, I would, I would probably put him in the rafters 42 is going to go up there, I think at some point in his, you know, after his career is over, considering how long he's been a Celtic for and that he has a title at this point. But the other night against Oklahoma City, you saw him against Cleveland. I just can't believe what I'm seeing in I I in against the Lakers, where he's on an island guarding Luca, guarding LeBron. They put him in so many, and he just stood up every time. I just, I, I, I. At a certain point, I just feel like Al Horford's not going to be able to do these things. But this year is not that year. The guy is ageless and, and, and someone who is. If I had to pick someone to mentor a young Jason Tatum, I think given the way he's taking care of his body and the length of his career, not too many better guys than that. And I just want to acknowledge the greatness of Al Horford on this podcast because he's been the last couple of weeks completely irreplaceable.
- [46:20]
Bobby Manning
Yeah. And you look at some of the offensive numbers, they are down this year. His role offensively, you look at it, it's, it's steadily declining each season, but the defense is still there. And that's what you're going to call on him for in a playoff matchup. In a playoff situation, you still feel good enough that he can knock down threes and play capable minutes at the center spot. I mean, he just did it for an entire postseason run on the way to a championship a year ago, and we're talking about just out of this world minutes from him. I think he started in total minutes or something like that over the last three years, out of all the players in the league, when you account for the playoff minutes there. So he's been playing a ton. You had the rob injuries during the early parts of that run that forced him to start. You had the Kristaps injury last year, and that forced him to pretty much play the whole playoffs at center there. And he just did it. And there's just a level of preparedness. I think the teams manage him well. I know he's talked about doing the Brady stuff and just preparing himself for this late stage of his career to be healthy. He's never hurt. You know, knock on wood here. Even though some nights he's off or he needs to rest or play less minutes, some nights he doesn't look like himself. But in the big spots he does. And especially against these switching matchups, these teams that Attack him. I think Bon Temps tweeted out that this was like the most a player's been singled out going back to, like, way, way back in that Lakers game, they were going after him every time, and he held up, and that was a big part of that win for the Celtics there in that game. And you've seen in so many games where he's able to switch out to the perimeter. And I still think at this point in his career, which is crazy, he's one of the best switch defenders in the NBA. When he's out on guards, when he's out on difficult matchups, sometimes those guys will beat him because they're just difficult matchups. But he's able to contain and funnel them into tough spots and play a team role in that position that I think just makes him the perfect player for that kind of defensive scheme if the Celtics want to go there. And it's. It's uplifting. Every time he has these big games, especially on the scoring side. When that returns, you see all the teammates really get inspired. Joe always waxing poetic about it on the podium. There's just something that really gets this team going. You remember the Game 5 against Cleveland last year, after he really struggled to start that series? That was one of the more special moments in the building last year. And, you know, you always have Tito there and everything like that, so it's a special experience. What he's done in a Boston uniform, you're glad he got the championship. I know Mark Dagnall, who obviously coached him during that Thunder season, was like, you know, guys who deserve championships don't always get them. This guy deserved a championship, and he finally got one. And maybe he'll get another one this year, and it feels like he'll be back next year, maybe even the year beyond that. It doesn't feel like retirement's imminent for him. Despite the age here and the accomplishments, he's starting to stack up. He just enjoys this. And you even see his son on the bench down there in Miami. I think that's a big part of why he keeps doing this.
- [49:19]
Evan Valenti
His.
- [49:19]
Bobby Manning
His family can be along for the ride. So it. It's really special. And, you know, when we. When you think about life beyond Horford, Evan, you're just not going to be able to replace him, because this isn't some guy who, you know, developed later in his career and, you know, you found on the scrap heap and, you know, turned him into something. This is a number three overall pick who, looking back on it, was one of the more special and unique big men, talents that we've seen coming out of a draft who's just been able to perfectly adapt to the modern game after coming in in a different era. And you're just not going to be able to find that with someone that you develop or draft or, you know, this is an elite, elite player who definitely transitioned his role, especially in the second Celtic stint here. But still the foundation is those really special skills. The thing, the ability to make himself a threat from a variety of positions on the floor and then that defense which is really all world. It's incredible what he's still doing on that end of the four specifically. So yeah, you could talk all day about just how, how much fun it is to watch him at this point and they're gonna need it. Evan, you know, if you feel like Kristaps will be there this year, but there's always that chance Kristaps isn't there. And you have Al Horford as his backup, which is pretty amazing.
- [50:37]
Evan Valenti
And Cornet's been great too as a backup to Horford. I don't want that to go unnoticed. But yeah, Al's been insanely good this year and I'm just, every time he has a big game, I just smile just because I just can't believe what he's doing at his age. Coming up this week, looks like we have a couple of games. Brooklyn on Tuesday, part of the home at home, Friday against Utah, Sunday against Portland. So not a, not a lot of.
- [50:59]
Bobby Manning
Big west coast trip coming up.
- [51:01]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, yeah, not a lot of big games in the docket here. But this is the end of the season. Again we talk about rest and, and minutes and all those things and it's going to be very important. This is just, just a little setting, little table setting for what's going to be a fun playoffs this year. I believe in my opinion as Boston again is going to be locked in the two seed and ready for, for again home court throughout most of the playoffs. But it's been a fun time. Bobby, I really appreciate you coming on and joining me here this morning. I want to let everybody know today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Go download the app today. Use the code CLNS. You get 50 bucks after you play your first five dollar lineup. It's a $50. Again. CLNS is the code for that. Make sure you subscribe not only to Celtics beat on YouTube and on Spotify and on Apple podcasts. Also the Garden Report featuring my guy Bobby Manning. I would say probably the most popular show that this company puts out every single week.
- [52:00]
Bobby Manning
And Evan will be on Saturday nights post game against the Nets.
- [52:04]
Evan Valenti
Thrilled for it. Can't wait. It's going to be a good time for Bobby Manning. I'm Evan Valenti. We'll see you next week folks. Enjoy your weekend. Enjoy little Nets basketball.
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Evan Valenti
Yep.
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Evan Valenti
Bundle and safe.
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Evan Valenti
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