Adam Kaufman (2:44)

We appreciate you there as well. Download Rate Review subscribe wherever you find us.

Evan Valenti (2:47)

Keith.

Adam Kaufman (2:48)

Also the co host with Trevor Lane of the Front Office show. Make sure you check that one out.

Keith Smith (2:53)

Pardon me.

Adam Kaufman (2:53)

Hey, Keith, listen, we, we didn't discuss this before the show. I'm just kind of throwing this one out at you and I hope it's not uncomfortable because this is in front of our, our active, engaged audience. We can't give you your normal rate for this show. We're gonna have to bump it down just a little bit. But what we can do. What we can do is make you a, an ambassador of the Celtics beat program on CLNs just to, just to kind of circumvent this thing. We're gonna call it the Kawhi Leonard Special.

Keith Smith (3:28)

Do I need to plant any trees or am I good? Like, like, how will that work?

Adam Kaufman (3:33)

No, I don't think there's any tree planting. All right, you might, it's.

Keith Smith (3:36)

It's kind of a.

Adam Kaufman (3:37)

Kind of a no show job. You might say it.

Keith Smith (3:39)

You might.

Adam Kaufman (3:40)

You might have to periodically just talk about how much you love this podcast, how it's your favorite Celtics podcast out there and you know, that's more than Kawhi did me.

Keith Smith (3:49)

Yeah. Come.

Adam Kaufman (3:50)

Come to meet and greets, that type of thing.

Keith Smith (3:52)

Yeah. Hey, I'll take it that you're. I'll take whatever, you know, you give me. It's only slightly more work than Kawhi Leonard did for aspiration, I think it was called. Or. Or we're learning.

Adam Kaufman (4:03)

Yeah. No show company for a no name company. What do you meant?

Keith Smith (4:06)

Let's.

Adam Kaufman (4:06)

I know this is not a Celtics thing, but it could become a Celtic thing, could become a league wide thing. Already you have Pablo Torre, who broke this story there as part of Meadowlark, literally looking into Jalen Brunson's contract. You know what, what kind of floodgates might this potentially open here? Steve Ballmer has already, of course, the owner of the Clippers, who is at the center of this thing, said, you know, publicly, go ahead, investigate, please. We need to get to the bottom of these issues. There's no foul play here. On and on and on. But you tell me, what's your read on this?

Keith Smith (4:35)

Yeah, I mean, it's a huge story. And not just a huge story because it broke. You know, when we're in a very core quiet period in the NBA. This is any kind of alleged salary cap circumvention is massive. The NBA, along with the nbpa, put in very stringent rules to put handcuffs on teams. And it was, hey, if you want to keep spending, you can, but you're not going to be able to do X, Y and Z to then also add to your roster. We know the Clippers at that point kind of said, all right, we can't keep going down the path we've been going down. We're going to have to change things up a little bit and do some different things and, and all that. And to be clear, what's alleged to have gone on with Kawhi, that was kind of pre. Some of this stuff that's had that, that happened with the CBA and all that, but it's very, very messy situation. You just can't have this. It's, you know, the, the idea of sports starts to crumble and fall apart if we don't have the idea of fair play. This is, you know, as much as people like, yeah, it's entertainment, who cares? Well, it, it is entertainment and it should be fun, but it's not sports entertainment, which I remember what a massive deal that was when I was a kid when the then WWF had to rebrand as sports entertainment because there were all these lawsuits that were going on about how it's not a real sport. It's, it's scripted, it's planned out and all that. If we get to a place where our actual sports are not necessarily scripted, but there are people going around the rules and doing all these things, and I've seen some people say, so they found a loophole. What's the big deal? They didn't find a loophole. If, if this happened, they cheated. They 100% cheated. That is not finding a loophole. When the Knicks traded car Anthony Towns and signed a bunch of guys to contracts $1 over the minimum, they kind of exploited a loophole in the system. And that was, you know, an allowable thing that they, they were okay to do. That's, that should, quite frankly, that should be encouraged. You should be trying to find, you know, loopholes that, that break the system.

Adam Kaufman (6:37)

And, but competitive advantages, that's what.

Keith Smith (6:41)

Yeah, but when you're actively cheating, that's not okay. And that's, that's, that's where this is strength, you know, strained toward. Now, to answer your actual question, like, yeah, it's a huge deal and a lot of it's going to depend how much do the other NBA owners want to make it into a huge deal. There's been some reporting out there that they're livid and a lot of them Are like, go after them as hard as can. But there's been some reporting that there are a couple that are like, yeah, let's, like, let's see where this goes. And I think it's because I don't want you turning the tables on me and looking deep into my books and. And those kind of things, but I, I do think this is something the NBA is going to take very seriously. And I think you're. You're gonna see some, you know, real action kind of come out of this.

Evan Valenti (7:24)

So you had. There's like, obviously wild, rampant speculation of potentially other teams trying to find different versions of. Of this, like doing their own version of it. And I was listening to Simmons my way into work this morning, talking about this with Joe House, and they're referring to, you know, there's a little bit of this kind of like going like some guys get like, stock tips, like, hey, you know, we just invested in this startup. You know, take some cash, throw it this way.

Adam Kaufman (7:49)

That sounds like insider trading.

Keith Smith (7:52)

That sounds like another illegal.

Adam Kaufman (7:53)

Yeah, that's. That's a different problem altogether.

Evan Valenti (7:55)

You gotta. You got a bunch of guys pump and dump. Hey, look, I'm just saying. Look, this is just what I'm hearing what. Again, what I'm hearing what I'm listening to on my iPhone. But it's like there's. That there's, you know, guys are getting documentaries, you know, all these production companies that are getting, you know, you know, millions of dollars to make a documentary about so and so. I mean, there are other ways that people have gotten around this thing. Keith, I guess the question is how in your. Because you deal a lot of, like, widespread NBA things, we're trying to apply it to Southern. You know, eventually in the show we'll do that, but in terms of a wide scope NBA lens, how much of this type of thing do you see kind of like popping up around here and there? Because it might not be like, oh, here's a shell corporation that we kind of kind of just made up on paper so that we could pay Kawhi a bunch of no show fees and him collecting another $48 million.

Keith Smith (8:52)

There's that version.

Evan Valenti (8:53)

But there might be other subtle ways that this might be going on. Anything that you've heard or maybe have in your circles and your travels have come up with some similar versions of this.

Keith Smith (9:02)

Yeah, if we go back, I mean, it was 25 years ago, but go back to the Joe Smith situation. Kevin McHale, who was the Wolves GM, said everybody does versions of this. We were just really bad at it. Like, he said that in an interview after they got in trouble and in. But that's a different kind of circumvention. Right? That's where it is. Hey, sign here on a minimum deal, and then when we get better rights on you the next year, we'll take care of you. And they. They did. Their problem was they. They outlined it and put it in writing because people got afraid Glenn Taylor was going to sell the team and all that stuff. And they've been a reminder, yes, he did sell the team. This was 25 years ago that the Joe Smith situation happened. As far as actually paying a guy a whole bunch of money, I don't know how common that is. And if it. If it is happening, teams have been pretty smart about hiding it. And I've seen some people say, well, you know, player X. And they were. It was almost all 30 teams. People were like, this guy has a sponsorship deal where he does commercials for this auto dealership who's one of the team sponsors. As Steve Ballmer said, there's nothing wrong with that. They're allowed to. To get those done. But the difference is that guy's doing commercials for that auto dealership. It was not, here's $28 million. And then nothing happened. There was no press release that he is a, you know, gonna be part of their group. There. There was no then on the board.

Adam Kaufman (10:33)

Right?

Keith Smith (10:33)

Yeah, there was no. There was no video of Kawhi Leonard looking at a newly planted tree like that. You could have done, like, you could have done so many things. And the question that's being put in there, and Zach Lowe did a really good job covering this and calling this out is in the wording within the NBA. And this is where it gets a little messy, because a lot of people went direct to the cba, but this is also covered under the bylaws in the constitution of the league as well. So there are things that are in the CBA around this, but there are also then other things in the league bylaws. But one of the things that is basically in there is the league doesn't need to have, like, a piece of paper or recording that says we're paying him outside of the salary cap like that. That doesn't need to exist. They just need to look at and be like, yeah, something's weird with this money that this guy got. And something seems off here to be able to then punish. Now what will happen is Steve Ballmer, the Clippers, maybe if Kawhi's contract is voided, or anything like that happens, or he faces a major suspension himself, then you'll get the players association involved on his behalf. It will turn into a very messy legal fight is my guess. But. But there's only so much recourse that they have to even fight these things, because these are things that are there. So that's going to be kind of the part that just anybody I have talked to that says the part that really stands out is the amount of money, $7 million a year. Guys don't even get that in shoe deals. And that's like the most lucrative con endorsement you can land as a basketball player is having a shoe deal. Guys don't touch that kind of money in a shoe deal. And when you're getting $7 million a year and then you did absolutely nothing, that's where people are going to have problems with this. And that's what I think the league is going to really seize upon.

Adam Kaufman (12:26)

So for the sake of educating our listening audience, viewing audience here, Keith, because every league is different, teams that do have salary caps, they are worded differently. Obviously, collective bargaining agreements, sport to sport are different. So when it comes to the NBA, where you have this hard cap and you have the aprons and penalties, and obviously there are so many reasons, you outlined many of them, as to why it would be problematic to be circumventing the salary cap, how different is this versus, let's say, the NFL, where you can massage the salary cap, or it is a hard number, but where the contracts are very flexible. For instance, it is very common that you hear in the NFL that a guy's salary, his contract has been in part converted to a bonus as opposed to actual money that goes against the cap. And they do that, these teams, so that they can award themselves more cap space to go out and sign more guys and give themselves that flexibility. Obviously in the NBA, you can't do something like that, like that. But how different is this? You know, this no show. Here's $28 million over four years for this phantom company that he's, you know, obviously never had contact with versus, you know, an NFL player. We've converted $20 million of your contract into a bonus. Here you go. And now your salary quote, unquote, is less.

Keith Smith (13:48)

Yeah, it felt like the last 10 years Tom Brady played for the Patriots. Every year you would get Tom Brady's making $10 million, but he counts 50 cents against the salary cap. And it's like, how does this work? Like. Like, I don't really ever, you know, God, never really fully Got that. But. But the difference is that's all allowed, right? That's all legal. That is all there. And then we, you know, at least, you know, I think we're all Patriots fans. We all know it all came home to roost eventually. Right? Then it was like, hey, remember all those years of deferred payments? Well, now Brady's not on the team and now it all hits the books and, you know, it was a, you know, ugly season where there was all this dead money and that's, you know, eventually what happens. And I think that, I don't think. I know. The major difference is that's all legal, it's all allowed.

Adam Kaufman (14:34)

It's all Bobby Bonilla deferred money, right?

Keith Smith (14:37)

A little bit, yeah. I mean, it's all in there, right? Like, that's all legal and allowed. This is not allowed. NBA players are not allowed to draw off book salary for anything that is compensation for playing. And now some people have really latched on to. Yeah, it's weird that it said in this agreement over the four years, if he wasn't on the Clippers, the deal goes away. That's not actually uncommon. That's pretty common. Like, you see, I, I don't. Hey, because I'm not in the Boston area anymore. I don't get all the local commercials. But if, like, somebody is doing a thing for d' Angelo subs. Yeah, yeah. Derek White doing Sam Adams ads, well, those have an impact because he's in Boston. If he all of a sudden is playing for one of the other teams, it doesn't have as much of an impact. And, and if it's like he goes somewhere else, he's like, now he's running beer ads for another place. Just looks weird. So a lot of those endorsement deals are like, hey, for as long as your tenure is with the team in the region, you know, great. We're going to, we're going to keep giving you money for this. It's also not $7 million a year. And you are going to produce something that we're going to be able to show to, to potential, you know, investors and clients and consumers. So you've got that part of it. But it is that. That's the difference, though, to that. This is, this doesn't pass the smell test. Like, it just. Something feels off and wrong about this. That in a lot of the other things, when you look at me, like, yeah, okay, like, it doesn't really like it. Yeah, the guy's the 15th man. He's got a million dollar endorsement, but like, he's the 15. Like, Luke Cornette was wildly popular in Boston. If he was running local ads for, you know, Joe's Toyota, like, people would love it because people loved Luke Cornette. So it's like, yeah, okay, you know, good for him. He got some money, and clearly that's not the Celtics trying to pay him off. Books like that, that. That's where it kind of all becomes sideways. So this.

Evan Valenti (16:40)

Well, go ahead. I was gonna say, you know, I know.

Keith Smith (16:43)

I.

Evan Valenti (16:43)

This is hard to kind of project because we're still kind of in the middle of this invest. Like this news happened this week. Obviously there's investigation coming. We're not done hearing about the story. But, you know, my first inclination is, you know, what does this punishment even.

Adam Kaufman (16:57)

Look like if they're exactly where I was gonna go.

Evan Valenti (17:00)

Guilty of this. Right. Like what, Keith, Any clue? Because, I mean, yeah, draft picks. Is it fines? Is it.

Adam Kaufman (17:07)

What is this on top of that, by the way? I. I want. I want you to answer that question, but I also want you to answer, you know, what. To what measures, to what end might be, because we always hear like independent investigator. But to what degree, especially if this is as bad as it sounds, will the league go to try and sweep this under the rug like it didn't happen?

Keith Smith (17:28)

Yeah. So to answer your part first there, Adam, I think they're. They've already come out and it's come out who they hired to do the invite the investigation. They hired a law firm or a law firm or a investigative law firm. I. They might not be exactly that, but. But it did come out. Who's going to handle the investigation for them? So I don't think they're sweeping it under the rug. I think it is, hey, we're going to take it serious now. I think they would be very happy if the answer that came back was, yeah, there isn't anything we found that is provable beyond what's out there. And then from there, that becomes a decision of a lot of people say, well, then it's at up to Adam Silver. Yes and no. It's a Tadam Silver as an agent of the owners and in this case would be the other 29 owners. And if the other 29 owners push Adam Silver and say it's bad enough, then we go into the punishment phase. Evan, to your. Your question and it's question everybody's mind. And I tweeted what the Joe Smith penalties were, but again, that was 25 years ago. Like, we don't. Who knows, there are some things laid out in the CBA. And one of the things is a $4.5 million fine voiding of contracts. There can be suspensions that are handed down as well as loss of draft picks. But again, every contract, and this goes beyond sports, almost every contract has a for the good, especially in sports, usually for the good of the game clauses that, that that get put in where it is say we somebody did something really bad that we didn't anticipate and we know it's bad for the game. So we're gonna give the commissioner again, as an agent of the owners to do what they need to do. So I think they are really kind of gonna gonna go after this hard and I think we will see some form of suspensions. I don't know that they're going to force Steve Ballmer to sell the team. That would get in a whole other type of legal fight. But I think we're going to see suspensions. I think we will see loss of draft picks. And yes, I know the funny joke to be made was Clippers don't have any draft picks. They've traded them all. But they do have some picks now that they, you know, have recouped. Also, the NBA, while teams are limited to they can't trade picks more than seven years out. There's nothing to say the NBA is limited to that. They could go beyond that seven years and say, all right, great, you don't have draft picks and X year X your X year, but we're going to go. It's important to know with the Joe Smith punishment, it was five draft picks. They did give two of them back later because I think they're like, we went a little harsh on them. Give them a couple picks back. They Glenn Taylor was suspended for a year. Kevin McHale effectively was suspended. He ended up taking a leave of absence for an entire year as a general manager. And Joe Smith's contract was voided. He was not allowed to sign with the Timberwolves for that season that the contract was voided for. And crucially, which then became a fight with the Players association, the league took the unprecedented step of saying we're going to void the bird rights he accrued over the prior two years with his contracts and say those contracts were voided because they were signed specifically in this agreement to do this. People have asked. We get asked this on our show on Friday, our Friday live show. Hey, could they unwind trades in like, say, like, hey, they, you know, they did this. This led to Paul George and the Paul George. The NBA is not going to go back multiple years and then all of a sudden, you know, Shay Gilgis, Alexander's back on the Clippers and they get draft picks back. So because, well, how would that be a punishment? They'd be like, thanks, you helped us out. This is awesome. So none of that's going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a push to say, hey, we're going to avoid Kawhi's contract. And if it's also known like, hey, Kawhi was a big part of this and a willing participant, which I don't know how, how he wouldn't have been, I think then they're going to hit him with maybe some form of suspension, too. And again, that's when the players association will get heavily involved. And this is going to be a fight whenever we get to that point. But this is not going to be quick. It's going to take a little while to get to that point, too.

Adam Kaufman (21:45)

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Evan Valenti (22:08)

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Keith Smith (23:12)

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Evan Valenti (23:15)

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Keith Smith (23:19)

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Adam Kaufman (23:21)

I don't know. There are people thinking this could be the year chemistry with Michael Penix not buying it.

Evan Valenti (23:27)

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Adam Kaufman (23:41)

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Evan Valenti (24:24)

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Adam Kaufman (26:51)

Back here with Keith Smith again from the front office show with Trevor Lane as well as spot track now. Guess we may as well kind of keep doing what we're doing. We've been talking about a lot of the financial implications and potential cheating involved, obviously, when it comes to Kawhi Leonard, his situation with the Los Angeles Clippers league wide as we get right around this time every year, updates on the salary cap going forward and the projection as it stands, because it is not official, Keith, is that the 20, 26, 27 season when Jason Tatum is expected to return, maybe sooner. I know we, we've had this conversation about him trying to beat science, but let's just say they play it safe, everybody involved. And he returns the following year when the Celtics hope to be contenders once again, even if they are a playoff team this upcoming season. A salary cap that will be, roughly as it stands, $166 million, which is 10, 11 higher than this upcoming season where we are at 154.647 million went into effect on July 1, just a couple months back. Now, you being known as a salary guru, a salary wizard out there. What is the impact on this as it relates to the Celtics? We know that we've seen them, you know, shed all these salaries. Kristaps Porzingis, who's, you know, taken Euro basket by storm, is now with Atlanta and Drew Holiday, obviously they were able to get out of that deal, which I really supported, much as I do like Drew. He is off with Portland. They've made other moves. Yang, they got rid of him after acquiring him. So the hometown kid will not wear a Celtics uniform, at least not this upcoming year. And who knows what Anthony Simon's future in a Celtics uniform is going to be, be it going into the year or even come trade deadline time or something along those lines. But they have gotten themselves under the second apron. They're, you know, making things, you know, it's all about Mike Zarin, obviously, at the head of this for the Celtics, as he's been for a long time. It's about massaging things in a certain way to get you fewer penalties going forward, more flexibility going forward. Not have penalties, not have things taken away from you. I know there's been a lot of discourse over the course of the summer about how important that is versus how manipulative the whole conversation is. But you tell me, when the salary cap goes up, but not necessarily as much as people expected it to go up, what does that mean for the Celtics when Tatum is back?

Keith Smith (29:16)

Yeah, it was very funny. That news comes out first reply I get that I get tagged in is, does this mean the Celtics shouldn't have traded Porzingis and Holiday and should have kept them? It's. It's literally a million dollars more for next year. This year is already done. Locked in stone, as you said, 155 million. Just let's keep it simple. Round figures here. Next year, the expectation was that the cap would go up about 7%. Now the salary cap is maxed out, capped out to, no pun intended, at a 10% growth. That was one of the things they agreed to because they don't want the massive cap spike like we saw in 2016, which just resulted in one class of free agents getting wildly overpaid. And then everybody else was then, or excuse me, every team was capped out, and then every other free agent was like, cool. So all that money, I wish I was a free agent a year before. So now they cap the growth. It smooths the cap. It comes in, too. What had happened initially was when the new TV deal was signed, it was like, okay, we're gonna see 10 growth for at least, probably two, three seasons of this. This will be great. This will really help teams in the position of the Celtics where these caught. The cap will grow faster than the contracts will grow. Max contract growth is only 8%. So that just when you're. When you're dealing with the second apron, every couple million dollars counts, right? So it's. Let. Let's get up there. Then it came in at only a 7% projected growth for next season. And part of. And when I say next season, I mean 26, 27. What part of what's factoring in there is. There's a lot of issues, Boston being one of them. But around the league with local TV deals, which those local TV deals, yes, they're the team's local TV deal, but that money all goes into the pot for everybody. At the end, if there's not enough money in the pot, cap doesn't go up as high as it should. Even if the national TV money is massive, enrolling in national media rights, they, they. Every time I say it, someone's gonna send me a message, hey, it's meteorites, not TV money. Because it's, it's not just TV anymore because apparently streaming is very important. But anyway, it is. So it's good news, right, that it goes up. The NBA generally has historically been very conservative with the early cap projections because nobody yells at them. If it's like, hey, it went up 10% and you told us it was going to be seven, no one's going to get mad about having extra spending power. So for the Celtics specifically, the good news is next season they're in a position to be in pretty good shape. They, you know, realistically, if we, let's say they kind of keep everybody who's got a guaranteed contract on the books and then a guy like Baylor Shireman's on the books, they should be around 15 million ish or so under the luxury tax, which then that could be enough wiggle room to go use the mid level exception, get a player that way, maybe make a trade or two where you can add some money to the books and, and you start to rebuild this roster around what at this point looks like Tatum, Brown, White, and I'll include Pritchard in there as big parts of it. And then you go forward rebuilding it. So if it goes up, we'll probably get another projection usually around January or so heading into trade deadline season. We'll get another projection then we'll get another one shortly around the start of the playoffs and then sometimes one more right before the off season starts. If it continues to go up, that's just so much better news for the Celtics because what's done is done. Porzingis is gone, Holiday's gone. Now what you want is you want to, you want that gap between the team salary and the taxes. You want that to continue to grow. Right? So it just continues to grow because that's more flexibility for them to add guys as they start to build this back up next summer.

Evan Valenti (33:24)

Yeah, we've, we've been talking about how flexibility is going to be kind of the key for this stuff that's going forward here. There's a reason why like the. The. I. I can sense a lot of people after port and we're recording this on a Saturday for all just, you know, transparency purposes, obviously. Saturday, Chris Sams Porzingis goes off in Euro basket for. What was it, 34 and 16 or whatever.

Keith Smith (33:46)

I think he had 19 rebounds. Yeah. Yeah.

Evan Valenti (33:49)

Which is unusual for Porzingis, as we all know. We've been watching him for two years. Getting 19 rebounds, I think would have been maybe his. His career. I with the Celtics, like by a.

Keith Smith (33:58)

Good 19, including eight offensive rebounds, which he did not get very many of those.

Adam Kaufman (34:03)

No, but rebounds, yeah.

Evan Valenti (34:05)

Oh, that's. That's tough, Kaufman. No, I mean, you don't know.

Adam Kaufman (34:10)

He might have been rebounding his own misses over and over.

Keith Smith (34:12)

He didn't shoot very well. He was only getting AC6 for 14 on 2. So it might. Might have been a couple of those.

Evan Valenti (34:20)

It might have been a couple of me bounds. I guess I'll let that slide. Thank you. I'm not a. I'm not a big Kaufman does pun guy.

Keith Smith (34:25)

I don't.

Evan Valenti (34:26)

I'm not a big. I don't like puns.

Adam Kaufman (34:27)

Put you on the list.

Evan Valenti (34:29)

Thank God. I'm sure it's a long one, but the idea of being like, okay, was this really worth it? Getting off poisonous, getting off Drew Holiday. I can already see people whining that back like, well, Porzigas does this. And it's like we have two years of evidence that shows that Chris has Porzingis when it really matters. Like, it's just like not going to be available. And I.

Adam Kaufman (34:48)

It's.

Evan Valenti (34:48)

I know it's circumstance and I feel bad, but at the same time, like, data is the data. There's a reason why they got off that money. It's important for them to have flexibility going forward because again, this team keeps on getting more and more expensive as they keep going with Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. That being said, it's a nice game, but Keith trading those two guys, still the absolute thing they should have done right from the get go. Right?

Keith Smith (35:12)

Yeah. Nothing has changed for me with the idea of moving off of holiday and porzingis. I1, I don't think even having them changes where the Celtics fall in terms of where the season ends in a drastic way. I know some people are harboring this idea of they'd kept them and they could have been like the fourth or fifth seed and then Tatum is back by playoff time. They could have gone on a run. I just. I. If Jason Tatum comes back and plays at Any point in this season. That's incredible. That's amazing. That's great. But I'm just not going to believe it until I see it. So I think the fact that it is Tatum is out. They're not. They. Yeah, they would have been a better team with those guys. Of course. I mean, the front court is still yo. Very much a major question mark, despite how well Nami Escape has played in Euro Basket. It is. You're still going in with all these questions. You've got your depth questions and other things. But I don't know that having those two guys because kind of your point of they like Porzingis, so. All right, yeah, the 40, 50 games he plays, we're probably going to be pretty good. But I don't know, like, is he gonna play that much? Like, where's he gonna be? And then what happens the half of the season he misses? Holiday was starting to trend towards missing some time. He's just an older player. That's going to be a thing. And. And now you're talking. When they do play, we need you to do even more because Jason Tatum's not here. So that also becomes a little bit worrisome as far as wear and tear goes. So, yeah, I, I don't think they, they. Nothing has happened that's changed my mind. Cap wise, league wise, any of that stuff. I think these were the right decisions to make. I think you kind of, you know, I very. Gotten very fond of telling Celtics fans, every time you get frustrated with what the team is this year, just look up at the 2024 Banner and remember it was all worth it. Like, that's what they did it for was to get that championship. They did it. The mission was accomplished and now we, we move forward.

Adam Kaufman (37:24)

So let's talk a little bit of Celtics beyond obviously the salary cap conversation. Another week, another update on Jason Tatum. Even though we haven't had him sort of mainstream meet with the media, have a scrum type of interaction despite all these appearances in the off season that Celtics players have made. But we did get something on the Celtics Talk podcast, a little cross promotion there from his teammate, Jordan Walsh. I mean, who would have thought Jordan Walsh would be the one delivering an update on Jason Tatum. But that's where we are. Says he's been a familiar face at the practice facility. We see him often. I've seen him from when he messed up his Achilles to now. It's a big difference. He's moving around way better. He's progressing well. I'm definitely happy to see him getting back healthy to see him in the gym definitely sets a precedent for everybody else. If a guy's hurt trying to get back, then you got to do the same thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Brad Stevens obviously, as we know, has on record by saying there is no timeline. There is no, they're not gonna, I've made the comparison. They're not going to pace us this thing where it's going into the year. You know, Halliburton is not playing. The Celtics are letting this thing play out, whether for the kind of mental, psychological, emotional component for Jason Tatum, just to kind of give him that carrot that he continues to strive for to again beat science, which again, based on the math, if he were to return at the earliest we have seen a player return from this injury in NBA history, he'll be on the court playing games in January, February. Now, there are a lot of people that don't believe that's going to happen and that it shouldn't happen because honestly, what is there to necessarily gain? Let's just say, as we have outlined before, Jason Tatum returns for a small sampling of games in late March, beginning of April. What are you doing it for? He's either coming back to play in games that are completely meaningless, so why, or he's coming back to playing games that actually matter a little bit. So why? I mean, you need to know with the utmost medical certainty that Jason Tatum's return cannot impact him in a negative way, in any way, shape or form. And I'm not sure that's an answer that anybody will have. And so, Keith, I'm just assuming this is where I put words in your mouth. I'm assuming that you are in line with most people in the belief that Tatum is not going to return. But what do you make of these periodic updates?

Keith Smith (39:44)

Yeah, I, I, my going in assumption is we will not see him play this year. I will say I, if let's say the games are relatively meaningless, right. They're not gonna change their fortunes drastically as far as home court advantage or top six seed or I do still think this team has enough to be playing tournament team. That also speaks to the relative lack of quality at the bottom of the Eastern Conference as well. So. But if they won, I 100% believe the team will not put Jason Tatum on the floor again until they feel like he is past this injury. Nothing more can be done to make us feel better. I do think there is a chance that they could do. Remember when Paul George broke his leg in the lead up to the Olympics, broke His leg the next season, it was thought Paul George is going to miss the entire next season. In March, April of that very tail end of March, April of that season, Paul George came back. I think he played in like six games. And part of why they did that was let's just get it over with, right? You're back. You did it, you're. You played the Memphis Grizzlies when Brandon Clark was coming off his own torn Achilles. Not this just season that just ended, but the one before the absolute disaster of a season for Memphis where I think they rostered and played 35 different players in games that season because it was just crazy the amount of injuries that they had. They brought Brandon Clark back when there was no reason they were chasing wins, but it was and at the time they said now when he comes back to do his summer work, it's not in the back of his head. There's no one, he's done it. He's played, played in NBA games and he knows that he's good and there's something to be said for that. So if ready and by ready I mean like 120% ready. Like we've already, like he's already done scrimmaging and every like, like we feel good. Like he can play. Maybe you just throw him out there just to hey, let's get it out of the way, knock the rust off a little bit. I've seen people say maybe he sits out all year and then they play him in the playoffs. I just find that super far fetched to be like, hey, you missed the entire year. Now it's three in the most intense games of the season. Like for the first action you've had. That's not going to be the way this plays out. If we see him, it'll be because he could get some run in in the regular season and go and then we go from there. But I tend to think we're probably not going to see him because one, I just, I don't know that there'll be the need to and I don't know that he will be ready. I, I do think he's going to come back better. I mean we're all of an age where Achilles stairs used to be. That was it your career was if not over, significantly changed. You just weren't going to be the same player. But the only guy that I really remember initially kind of being like he's kind of the same guy was Elton Brand. Elton Brand couldn't run and jump before he got tore his Achilles. So the Fact that he couldn't do it after didn't really matter either. So, you know, but now we. We see, like, Kevin Durant. We're, you know, several years removed, and he's still going strong and. And looks really good. He's had other injuries, but the Achilles stuff he got back from and everything I've read. I mean. Right. We all turned into amateur doctors. And in that. And everything I've read was, again, the surgery done right away, the way they did the surgery, all that stuff that all promotes healing, faster and better healing and all these things. So I. I think it's all good news all around as far as it being a, you know, absolutely horrible thing that happened. But, yeah, I. I just. I don't see them just being like, all right, let's go. You know, here it is, January or February, and Jason Tam's back. You said, if. If it happens, I'll be. I'll be incredibly excited. But I. I just. I did that. That. Straying a little too far and extreme hopefulness for where, you know, I think it'll go.

Evan Valenti (43:44)

The one thing that. From that quote that Kaufman just gave that I do want to highlight is this. This notion, it really kind of has bugged me a little bit because everybody has their own leadership style, but, like, Tatum trying to bust his ass to get back to playing in playing shape. And as. I think it was Rich Goffman that had the quote of, you know, Jason's gonna make us make a decision on his future. If I know Jason, right, He's gonna. I'm paraphrasing, but he's gonna make us make a decision whether he's gonna play or not. That kind of stuff. People always talk about the leadership with Jalen and Jason, and that's the kind of stuff that I'm like, you don't know anything. You're not there. You're not in the locker. You're not a practice. You're not doing any of these things. We don't know what it's like. Just because he's not super vocal about it doesn't mean it's not happening behind the scenes. And so if you. If you listen to this quote from Walsh where you're sitting there and he's. He's talking about how. And later on in that. In that podcast, just talk about the. You know, the leadership of Jalen and Jason, how they're more the silent types and all these things. Like, that's the stuff that. That really. That's a rah rah guy in the huddle. And starting to do stuff like that's the stuff that, that matters to me. Right? And like, and you look at that and then you look at a guy like Peyton Pritchard, who Bobby Manning cls his very own Bobby Manning wrote a great piece about Pritchard and his training in the off season. How he hires guys to, to play pick up with him. And they guard them like hell. They double team them. And they're physical with them and not overly physical. Like these are the things that some of these guys do to set the tone for this franchise. And I think it's something that, yeah, there's not a lot of rah rah in your face. You know, KG's not screaming at guys like, there's nobody yelling at anybody yet. There is some serious leadership that's happening, happening in that locker room at this moment. And I think we ignore that. So when you see something like that and you read stuff from other guys that highlight these things that in your mind give you more movie. No, Jason and Jalen are great leaders. Just because they don't do it in your face doesn't mean they're not doing stuff behind the scenes. Does this put a little more like another feather in your cap, so to speak, to try and figure out the type of leaders that Jalen and Jason really are?

Keith Smith (45:51)

Yeah, I, I think so. I did. And that's, I mean, gosh, we go back to obviously pre title, that was a huge question mark of like, are these two guys ever gonna get there? And like, they never yell at anybody, right? They never scream and yell at guys and it's like, it's just not how they do it. Right? Like some guys do that and it's super effective. And if Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown just showed up and started being like, and I'm gonna use Chris Paul because it's been a very visible example for 20 years of a guy who's constantly in his teammates faces in that. And it's not even a bad thing because it works for Chris Paul. But why it works for Chris Paul because it's extremely genuine. That's who he is. Tatum and Brown started doing that, it'd be like, okay, look, why are you doing this? This is not you. When Marcus Smart did it, it was genuine. That's the kind of player leader that Marcus Smart is. Not all leadership has to look exactly the same. And to your point, Evan, it is. You don't have to see it. Like, that's the other thing. Like I, I always try to remind people we get snippets of what happens in the facility in, you know, things. And sometimes they're very controlled snippets. We, the first time Jason. We get footage of Jason Tatum shooting and going through, like shooting drills is going to be. Because they want us to see it, right? Like, it's not just gonna happen. It's not going to be somebody happen to catch it because it'll be kept under wraps until they're ready for us to see it. And that's where, you know, that's just how they handle things. But yeah, I, I think these guys have grown into being really good leaders because they've always kind of stayed true to who they are. And I do fire back when people are like, yeah, Tatum's not fire at all. And I'm like, he's not. Because this is a guy who's like, after big plays, jumping on guys backs and like, you know, shoving Peyton Pritchard and screaming in his face after, you know, he hits yet another half court bomb like, like, he does get fire. He does, you know, do that. I mean, part of what we don't like is he gets a little too fiery when he's complaining of the refs and gets technicals for, you know, stuff. And it's like there are things that happen. It's just, you know, it becomes very pick and choose of. Like, well, it's not the way I want it to be. Oh, okay. That. Well, it is what it is there. But yeah, I think he's, you know, obviously, and I love what Jordan Walsh said to. When you see Tatum in there busting his tail to get back, and you're like, like me a little under the weather and you're like, I'm just gonna skip today. You're like, I can't, man. Because he's gonna be in the gym. Like, he has every reason to take a day off and he's not gonna like, I should get there. I should get. Get in the gym and do my thing.

Adam Kaufman (48:28)

Well, and again, guys, Tatum reminds everybody in the media about this, what feels like annually at this point in time when people question or at the very least bring up his leadership style. And I won't, you know, just re. Emphasize everything the two of you have talked about. Everyone just heard it. But there are different styles. There's the very visible Marcus Smart style of leadership, yelling at everybody on the court and on the sidelines. And then there's more of a lead by example and what happens behind closed doors that we're not exposed to and, you know, just softer, maybe stern but softer in nature and, and Tatum has talked about his style for quite a while at this point in time. So guys, before we call it a day here, I actually planned on doing this off the top of the show. I feel bad that I'm saving it for the end of the show, but I would feel worse if we didn't do it at all. Jeff Twist, who has been a member of the communications and public relations staff for the Celtics for literally longer than I have been alive 44 years. 1981 is when he started with the Celtics and you know the, the lone red hour back higher that that remains obviously with, with just an incredible career that he has had with the organization and he's not walking away. He's, he's still going strong but not I've just to clear this up, unless I'm wrong, I've seen people tweeting about like Jeff Twist inducted into the hall of Fame. Jeff Twist has not been inducted into into the Basketball hall of Fame, but he has been honored by the Basketball hall of fame with the 2025 John W. Bunn Lifetime Achievement Award for his contributions on and well, not on the floor but off the court for the Boston Celtics. And I mean we could go on and on and on talking about the different things that he has had a hand in been involved with. There are great articles be it on the NBA site, obviously on the Celtics site written that that I would encourage people check out. The speech is floating around on social media so you can see it in its entirety. It's only about six minutes and certainly well worth your watch. But you know, he's not I'm sure we all know Jeff, the three of us at varying levels. I would not claim to know Jeff Twist well at all, but I have dealt with him over the years and nothing but professionalism and kind and graceful and help, you know, helpful. Just again a we joked earlier about Keith being an ambassador of the Celtics Beat podcast. I mean when it comes to ambassadors of the Celtics organization, Jeff Twist is very much at the top of the list. Keith?

Keith Smith (51:09)

Yeah, I think one of the really cool things you hear hear repeated often about him is he tells players when they first get to the Celtics. You're part of the family now, right? Once the Celtic always a salt doesn't matter if you're there on a 10 day contract, a two way call up like you're you're part of it now and then tries to connect them to what it means to be a Celtic. And there was clearly periods during his tenure where that was in question. Right? It was like, you know, there were the patino years where it was like, we're getting rid of a lot of the stuff that meant what it meant to be a Celtic. And clearly he kept that going, going, and that's huge. And then I'll just tell a very quick personal story. So for those who maybe don't, I think most do now. I'm located in Orlando. The entire time I covered the team for Celtics blog, I was located in Orlando. I was not, you know, around the team very often. And. And he traveled with. With the team and was at a game in Orlando, and pre game, everybody just eats in the media room. And he came in with his. With his plate. He said, do you mind if I sit down? And then I was like, yeah, of course. And he's. Then he goes, hey. He goes, so tell me how somebody who lives in Orlando is covering the T, right? And we just had a really great conversation. I told him, like, I grew up in Massachusetts. I grew up a Celtics fan. Like, I grew up on these teams. And I told him about my uncle taking me to games. And then I was telling about how my uncle had, at one time, his company provided all of the copiers and printers to the Celtics back in like, the, like, late 80s, early 90s, when these things were, like, a whole room worth. And that was how my uncle got, like, tickets a lot. He goes, who's your uncle? And I told him. He's like, I remember him. And, like, wasn't just a throwaway. Like, them was like, oh, yeah, you know, does he still have that crazy mustache? Because my uncle had a crazy, like, it was unbelievable that, like, this person who wasn't part, like. And he clearly, like, just made that connection. It was super cool moment there. My uncle got such a huge kick out of it. When I told him about it and everything, he's like, yeah, he was. He was like my contact. Because back then, yeah, you're a PR guy, but you're gonna do 15 other jobs, too, because we only have 10 total people that work, you know, not on the. On the floor with the team. So it was. Yeah, it was just really cool to have that moment. Moment.

Evan Valenti (53:33)

Yeah. We talk often, confident on this show, at least during the off season, because there's not a whole ton things to talk about. But Celtics have this, like, through line that they really care about about honoring the entire legacy of the Boston Celtics and trying to keep past heroes in the, you know, the. The present in the future. And. And Jeff Twist is, like, the guy that Keeps us all connected right now. You know what I mean? There are past legends. I mean obviously Shedrick Maxwell being there, Seth Sanders, like all these guys still being around helps, right? But like Jeff being involved in the day to day stuff every day helps kind of keep the Celtics lineage and history and, and the, the beauty of being a Celtic like still present top of mind all the time just because he's been there for so long. So like again, a shout out to Jeff Twist who's one of three, I think media relations guys to be in honored with this award, I believe. I think he's one of three.

Keith Smith (54:27)

I think that's right.

Evan Valenti (54:29)

So that's in one of the, if not the best PR guy in the NBA. One of the best. And I'll tell you how you know he's one of the best because you know his name, right? Like how many, how many media relations people do you know the names of? Like I, Stacey James is excellent with the Patriots. Right? Just excellent. Top notch stuff. You don't know too many of these people unless they're really, really, really good at their job. And Jeff I, I, part of it.

Adam Kaufman (54:53)

F2 is like the, if we were to mentioned the, the Bruins and the Red Sox, there's, there's just been more turnover over the years. You know, Stacy's been with the Patriots forever, Jeff Twist forever and ever, you know, with the Celtics and so that, yeah, after, after a little while you're going to make an impression.

Keith Smith (55:11)

Yeah, it's super cool too that the number of national media folks whoever responded and replied about Jeff Twist, like it's not, these are not just Boston people. And like I've told story about. Yeah, he was the one who got me the access to do this story or, or whatever over the last week or so. It's been, it's been really cool. Like that's just, you know, what a, you know, what a great honor. You know, it's, you know, it's, it's, it, you know, well, well earned.

Adam Kaufman (55:39)

Well, I think, you know, we, we can wrap the show. But just to echo one element of what EV was alluding to there and talking about the through line of the organization, it is not just these legends on the floor and these guys that we celebrate and all the years of alums coming back and all of that, you know, you think back, it's, it continues to be a talking point. Maybe not as much so as, as it was in the initial aftermath, but Heather Walker, who was on the Celtics communication staff, PR staff worked under Jeff Twist for a long time who sadly passed away two years ago from brain cancer has been, I mean the, the celebration for her over the couple of years that she was fighting for her life. And obviously since with the move for Heather, you know, movement and, and just raising money and the foundation and everything that it's been involved. Again, I think a lot of this not to give. I, I don't know if he deserves this much credit, but I'll, I will give it to him. Anyway, a lot of this does not happen without Jeff Twitter Twist and just the importance of the organization in general celebrating its people.

Keith Smith (56:52)

Yep.

Adam Kaufman (56:53)

So anyway wanted to mention that. But again, congratulations to Jeff Twist. Once again, the 2025 John W. Bunn Lifetime Achievement Award. Check out the speech on Twitter. Mark d', Amico, who of course is on the Celtics staff, he tweeted it out. You can just easily go to his Twitter account at Mark Underscore d'. Amico. Full speeches there. Six minutes worth your time. But Keith, it's been a little while on this show since we have had as much salary cap and sort of financial related conversation here during this off season. So I'm, I'm especially glad that you're around for it because I, I think it's been been due and, and we, we got that kind of kick in the butt to get there thanks to Kawhi Leonard and Steve Ballmer in the LA Clippers. But always a pleasure having you on, my friend.

Keith Smith (57:37)

I appreciate, I'm just glad we didn't spend 45 minutes discussing the second apron because that's like I think we've been there, done that. It was, it was good. But yeah, thanks so much for having me. We're, we're almost there guys. We're, we're, you know, not, we're getting so close again.

Adam Kaufman (57:52)

First preseason games I believe are a month away almost to the day. It's, it's coming. So get excited. But again for Keith Smith who is on Twitter at Keith Smith NBA part of the front office show as well as spot track. You see if you are watching along on the CLNS media page, the YouTube page, the all access page where you can get a whole boatload of great Celtics content across multiple shows, not just this one. Do rate review, subscribe if you are listening but if you are watching the video, you see Keith, you know, company man rocking the spot back shirt. So we love to see that. Love to see the Beastie Eagles that as well. And again, football season's coming. We are all Patriots fans. Take care of Pete Carroll, your old coach and the Raiders there in game one. For Evan Valenti, I'm Adam Kaufman. We'll talk to y' all real soon.

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