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- [00:00]
A
Today, Saturday, November 8th. And this is Celtics beat on the CLNS Media Network, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of the Boston Celtics. I'm Adam Kaufman. Episode 649 features the Ringers, Brian Barrett.
- [00:14]
B
And I'm Evan Valenti. And today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of CLNS Media. Download the app today, use the promo code CLNS and get $50 in lineups when you play. $5. Hey everybody, welcome in.
- [00:39]
A
Happy weekend. Happy 10 game. Check in on the Boston Celtics who come in at 4 and 6. There have been some disappointing moments. There have been some uplifting moments and right now, one and one in the NBA cup group play standings for anyone out there who should happen to give a singular damn about that, I don't. Adam Kaufman, Brian Barrett from the Ringer, host of the off the pike podcast. Make sure you check that out. Good friend of the program, Evan Valenti, of course here as always, three Syracuse guys coming at you where the football team and the basketball teams are. You know, one's a roughly 29 point dog today and the other a 28, 29 point favorite. But not going to spend any time talking about that. What we are going to talk about first and foremost before all things Celtics is technology. Because anyone who listens to this program or watches this show on the CLNS All Access page, the YouTube page, or even if you just subscribe to the podcast audio only, you know, we've had some hiccups along the way with Evan Valenti's sound. It is not Evan's fault. Technology has, has been a bit of a bear it Achilles heel to us. But we think maybe ev. The issue has been addressed just to.
- [01:53]
B
We are, we are aware of this. We're totally aware of all the things that have been happening. So let me just try to troubleshoot what the problem was. Has been very interesting. It's not my microphone because we've done shows with the mic without the mic hasn't mattered. We've done different types of Internet. Whether I'm on Wi Fi or if I'm hardwired in, that hasn't mattered. Now I bought a new laptop. So let's hope that this final, the final solution here because after this I'm not quite sure what to do. I just want to say you might.
- [02:25]
A
Just retire from the podcasting game.
- [02:27]
B
I know. I want to thank all of you that have texted me or DM'd me or sent me, you know, tweets on Twitter or in the comment section. I Appreciate all of you. Thank you very much. I'm hopeful that we have found the solution here with a brand new laptop. So if this doesn't work, it's Amit's fault and I don't know what to do.
- [02:48]
A
Ev here cares so deeply about all of you and this show that he went out and spent thousands of dollars on a new computer to rectify this issue. So let us hope, let us pray that we have a nice, crystal clear communication with you over the course of the next 4:45 minutes, hour, whatever it is. And the good news is, so far, Ev, you sound great.
- [03:09]
B
Oh, please, I'm begging you. I hate this as much as you guys do. Trust me. All right.
- [03:17]
A
Normally, guys, I would probably open up the show. I wasn't with you last week. So Ev has touched on more in season than I have. Obviously, I would, I would go on a little monologue, a little diatribe about, you know, all that has gone right, all that has gone wrong, the highs, the lows. And I know we're going to touch on those things sprinkled in throughout the show, really, where I just want to start very simply here, Brian. I don't know if I've ever called you Brian Barrett. Here's where I want to begin is how we feeling, just how we feeling about this team compared to expectation. Everyone had kind of a different expectation coming into the year. Some it's Tank for AJ or Boozer or whoever. Others, it's no. Look at the East. This is a playoff team. They tread water until Tatum inevitably comes back. And then obviously the people who have joined us throughout the last several weeks, months, that kind of landed in the middle. Where were you going into the season and where are you right now after you've seen 10 games?
- [04:12]
C
Yeah, I convinced myself that they were going to overachieve just based on the guys that they had. Right. The pedigree that they had. But it's been disappointing to me for a couple of reasons. Like right now, when you sit at 4 and 6, you're saying, and I think I said with you guys on the pod before, that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if they had like a high lottery pick, right. And have a young player, a star, especially considering how great this draft is to pair with Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown for the long term. But I wouldn't be opposed to them going over the 42 and a half that it got to by the time the season started and being a playoff team. But now it's like, are you Just going to be in the middle and not really have a great draft pick and not potentially make the playoffs or maybe make make the playing game and lose in the first round. So it's kind of weird the space you're in. There's been some bright spots certainly, but it's also not a great brand to watch right now. Like Pritchard and Jalen are doing their Pritchard was awesome in the game against the Magic. I thought Jalen was really good. The Simons thing I know was discussed on the post game show here last night on CLNS Media. Bizarre situation with Simons and I'm sure we'll address at some point but. And the fact that you don't have a big besides Keda. Like we knew the big man rotation was going to be bad but to the point where when he's on the court you have the best defense in the NBA. When he's off the court you basically have a defense that plays like the 27th best defense in the league that you're that dependent on Cater right now. So yeah, it's been. I'll say this number one positive is Jaylen Brown looks like Jalen Brown from two years ago prior to the injury. I think that would be the number one positive. We've seen some stuff from the young guys and I think Minot's been a pretty good find for them. But I'm not enjoying watching the products right now. Guys.
- [05:49]
A
I will say that ev.
- [05:53]
B
No, I mean the thing that I will say that we were right about is this is the worst rebounding team I think I've ever seen in my life. It is comically bad and it's not for like some guys are really trying like Minot's really trying out there to grab every rebound. Ugo is trying as best as he possibly can. Like the guys are trying to. It's just they don't have the size and like if again I'm sure Luca Gars is a nice guy but it's never a good. I. I like can't. I just can't do it. I.
- [06:23]
A
He.
- [06:23]
C
He's terrible.
- [06:24]
B
Is a liability in so many different ways that it's just. It's hard when he's out there to, to take this team seriously at all. And again it's. We all knew this was coming but to watch in reality is is ridiculous and it's like you go from, from the Mayesh Kato who was a depth piece for them would come in high energy and you know if he was feeling it great. If he wasn't looking so hot, he would just get yanked from the game. Now it's if he's not on the floor, this team is a disaster. I mean, an object disaster. I can't believe this team is 10 games in. And one of my biggest questions is, what would they do? Slash, where would they be without Nemes Keda? Because if he's not playing, they're. They're kind of dead in the water, boys. And again, maybe that's just like, hey, let him get as much run as possible, see how this goes, and we'll address this next year. But if you're trying to compete at all this season, this just can't be the solution. It just can't be.
- [07:34]
C
Well, look at this for a second here, okay? Just briefly. 236 minutes with Keita on the floor. Celtics are plus 82. 244 minutes with him off the floor, they are minus 59. So 141 point swing. Garza is a team worse. Minus 4:40 in 117 minutes. He's a minus 40. He is not good. Like, nothing. Like, he's.
- [08:01]
A
What does he do?
- [08:01]
C
I want to know that. Like, he can offensive rebound a little bit. He can't shoot. Everyone's like, hey, look at his three point rate. He takes a bunch of threes. I'm like, yeah, but he doesn't hit them. He doesn't hit threes. He takes a lot of them, but he's never hit him. So, yeah, the big man situation is just a complete. What if Keita goes down? I mean, knock on wood for like three weeks? Like you're. You're pork season's over.
- [08:23]
A
Yeah, it's been. Look, we, it's. This is not a. No, not a revelation. Not. Oh my goodness. Have you guys seen the Celtics front court situation? Like, we knew for months, the entire off season, this has been a topic on every single edition of Celtics. Pete. Any show any of the three of us have ever appeared on, obviously you know what you're doing.
- [08:44]
B
Like, literally titled. This is the worst rebounding team. I think I titled it. Celtics have worst front court in the league.
- [08:51]
A
I don't know how many times I have said on this program that they are dealing with a G league front court. This is the worst front court in the NBA. It's a problem. I will say Kada obviously has been a bright spot, even beyond what I could have expected from him riding, you know, the high of, of euro basket in Portugal and all of these things. He's been awesome. Garza. Not that I had high expectations for him, but he has absolutely been a lot worse than I would have anticipated. Boucher, it is, is not even a part of this rotation that I did not see coming. I thought this guy was going to have an impact on this team. You know, just there are. You could go up and down this roster with just are they meeting, exceeding or coming below your expectations? And we know like three point shooting for this team has been a, a big topic. One of the big questions that we had throughout the off season, Ev, was are the Celtics going to change their style of play or are they still going to be taking 4550 3s a game? Now what I will say is they're at 46, that that's their average and they're shooting at 32%. That's terrible. You know, a couple games ago obviously against Washington, we see their lowest 3 point volume and their highest hit rate. And of course everybody celebrates the success from two and says this is now how you need to play. Even though honestly if you look at some of the metrics, they've been doing a lot of that throughout the early games. But then it goes into this latest game against Orlando that for a while you're down big, you rally, you come back, you inject some life into Celtics fans watching on TV who weren't in the building. And then it all kind of falls apart at the end again because it's, it's this unreliability you, you have. Jalen Brown, who will spend some time on, let's save him for a little bit, has been. This has basically been the perfect version of Jalen Brown. A lot of what we talked about with Jason Tatum in the playoffs last year and over the last couple of years, other than the hair, the hair coming off on other guys uniforms, not ideal, not what you're looking for, but other than that on the court, the way he's playing awesome. But then obviously you have. This is Peyton Pritchard, you know, should he be starting? Is he taking on too large a role? Derrick White, I mean you said Ev before, like I'm sure Luca Garza is a nice guy. We know Derek White's a nice guy. He's awesome. You know what? He's not playing awesome. He's been. He's got to be given expectation versus reality. He might be the biggest disappointment for me on this team through 10 games overall simply because. And this, this may be on me for inflating expectation and I will own this. If you guys think I should own this or maybe you meet me Here on this one, you'll have to tell me. He was so exceptional, so reliable as a bonafide number two last year whenever Brown or Tatum were unavailable. Now that he has been thrust into actually having to own this role, it has been deeply disappointing. Obviously he just looks like a guy who, and this is not a knock on him because he was never projected to be this guy in the NBA. He's, by most people's standards, he is overachieved in his NBA career. But being thrust into this role on a regular basis, night to night without Tatum, even as well as Brown is playing, he has shown whether it's him or a prolonged shooting slump or just the way they're using them or all of the above. Barrett, he's just, he's not equipped for it. And if you can't have him performing anywhere close to a level that he did last year, and I thought he'd be better than he was last year, given the opportunity, then this team truly has no shot at being a playoff team.
- [12:39]
C
Yeah, I don't understand the Derrick White thing. He's now missed 100 shots, tied for the third most in the NBA. He is 149th out of 150 players in field goal percentage at 33.3%. And here's the thing, wide open threes with a defender of 6ft away or further. He's 11 of 34, 32.4% for example, Minot, who's got that long release. And I give him credit like he's knocking down some threes as of late. He's 9 of 21 at wide open threes, 42.9. I get this is all low volume now, but we're 10 games into the season and Derrick White is still not shooting the ball well. I brush it off the first couple of games. I'm like, he's too good of a shooter. Like he's going to find a stroke and he just hasn't. So I don't know how to explain that one. Like he's doing other things. Like he's playmaking, he's doing his thing on deep. I don't understand how he just all of a sudden he goes from last year and this is not hyperbolic. He was one of the best high volume 3 point shooters in the league. Like right now he's taking more shots than he did last year and he's averaging fewer points, which is really difficult to do. Right. And the other thing that I would mention as it pertains to Pritchard, he was struggling a bit Shooting the three shot the ball well against the Magic, of course, but Pritchard has found a way to become this elite driver and elite two point shooter. You look at his numbers on twos away from the rim. This is via cleaning glass. He's 33 of 51. That's 64.7% best of any player in the league with at least 40 attempts on twos away from the rim. He is elite when it comes to that. Derrick White has a nice floater, like we saw one in the game against the Magic. Maybe get to that like a little bit more because I. Right now I feel like this part of it has got to be mental because I watch him and I don't feel like any of them are going in. Like, even the one that he hit one on Wednesday night, that it hit the back of the rim and it bounced up super high and went in and he kind of just like looked up in the air like, wow, I actually got one to go down. But he's like. It's not like the same thing over and over again. How he's missing. Like he was missing a bunch long in the game. He's missed to the right. He's. It's not like, oh, one thing to tweak. I don't get it.
- [14:39]
A
I. It's.
- [14:41]
C
It's probably the most like the craziest thing that's happened to the Celtics this season that this guy just can't shoot. It's weird. And I'm the president of the Derrick White fan club. We meet weekly. I got people dropping left and right. I'm having these meetings. Nobody's showing up. Nobody wants to come anymore.
- [14:54]
A
You got to give more donuts, man.
- [14:55]
B
More donuts. Gotta. You gotta up the refreshment game. You gotta get, get the snacks got to be better.
- [15:00]
C
Maybe I'll have to bring like adult sodas or something.
- [15:03]
B
There you go. Of the things that to be concerned about of the season so far, the lack of bigs Luke Garza experiment has been one and the Derek White's been the other. And I have no faith in the Cell's ability at this particular moment to turn the big man rotation around. There's just no way. The Derek White thing has to eventually find its level because this is getting to a point. Like, this is not the guy that we've watched collectively over the past, what, three plus years here in Boston. Like, he was awesome. Basically, as soon as he got to Boston, it was like, he's awesome. And then there were some people that gave him a hard time in the NBA Finals, not this group in the next year when they won the title. He was awesome. He was awesome last year. And this is just weird. And the thing that I've, I've always looked out for him is that mid range game where he's got this, this like this little mid range floater that he, if he's on that shot is so deadly for him, but he hasn't been able to find the rhythm or the touch for that shot yet. Usually when he's got that going, all the things start to fall in place. At a certain point it's going to be like, okay, at what point is he going to be pressing to the point where it's like, I'm just trying to make things happen. Nothing good is happening. Then it takes us. Something's completely out of the. What they want to do to contrast him with Pritchard. Like there was that stat last night where Pritchard has the highest field goal percentage on like drives in the NBA over Giannis, which, like, I think Giannis is in second place and Pritchard at the top. I think that was the number. It was like 72, 73, which is insane. We can't just say the same for Derrick White. And like, when you look at the landscape and like, look at this team. I think we'd all love to have Derrick White on the team, but I, you know, given what, you know, your boss Bill Simmons said the other day, I don't know if he's going to be on this team come February considering how, how poorly he shot. We. What's really annoying though is if you were to put Tatum back on this team, I bet you he'd be amazing. I bet he'd just be just, just as good as he was the previous years and we wouldn't be talking about this, but because there's no Tatum there, the, the burden might be too much. I, I don't, I don't know, but it just doesn't make me feel good.
- [17:15]
A
Well, I'm sure a lot of people too will look at it and say, well, look who's defending him. Or look at, you know, like his, his. He's taken on more. Like you said, the burden. It's not, but we gotta. This has been pointed out ad nauseam. It's a lot of open looks. It's a lot of wide open looks, open looks, you know, defenders not within four feet, all this stuff where I want. You just brought up the Simmons thing and this is actually where I wanted to go with this. F. And I Want to say one thing for all of our listeners, all of our viewers, we love you. We thank you for sticking around with us. And I hope the reason that you keep coming back to this show is that the two of us and then obviously Barrett, but any guest who's on the show, we make it a point. I know this is true of Barrett show. We believe in, in talking about this team in a high level way. Not just clickbaity kind of conversation that, that like instigates you and rage baits you. As my kids would say in the comments section on YouTube. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that just want to say, yeah, you got to trade Jaylen, you got to trade Derek.
- [18:14]
C
You gotta.
- [18:14]
A
I wanna, I wanna have intelligent conversation around that. And we've had conversation around whether or not you trade Jaylen Brown or Derrick White. Not because you don't like them, not because they're bad players, not because you want to, but because just team building philosophy and the salary cap and the aprons and tax penalties and yada yada, yada, I bring all of that up to say this, Derrick White's performance so far, and we know full well what this dude is capable of. This is a 10 game sample size. But if this continues, is it actually hurting his trade value? Is this sabotaging Boston's desire, if it does have one, to get rid of him for a max return? Is. Is this performance that we're seeing so far, Barrett getting in the way of that?
- [19:02]
C
Yeah, look, it could be. And the thing that I would look at too is I, I think the interaction between him and Pritchard on the court isn't great. Not like that they don't like each other or anything. But just like if you look at the numbers in there. Yeah. Like when Jalen's off the court, those two on the court together, they have a 100 offensive rating. With those two on the court. Jalen off with just White on the floor, even though shooting has been terrible. And Jalen and Pritchard off, they have a 119.5 offensive rating which would rank fourth in the NBA. So I do think there is something to that. Where Jalen's off, it's like, wait, who's running the show? Is it Derek White? Is it Peyton Pritchard? But like Peyton Pritchard, to his credit, he's putting pressure on the defense with the drives that Valenti mentioned with his two point game. Derrick White is not putting pressure on the defense whatsoever. So going back to your point about White like, yeah, if he doesn't get his shot back over the next couple of weeks, his trade value will go down. And like the Rockets make total sense, right? Because you think about that team, they don't have a point guard right now. And I know at last glance they were number one in the NBA and offense still, which is kind of crazy, but we know what they can do from a defensive perspective. He would make sense there, right? Because you're not asking him to take a ton of shots. It's play defense, run some pick and roll, run the team a bit. And you look at that Houston team, you say they have a Phoenix pick, right? I know Phoenix has been sort of better than expected, but you get a first round pick from Phoenix, like, that's pretty valuable, right? So they have all their picks they can, and they have extra picks too that they could trade to you. And I think if you're the Celtics, I mean, you would be foolish not to entertain these things considering where the team's at right now. And also, like, hey, you have got to find a way. And that's why I applauded the Minot deal, considering how he's played, because they put an extra year on it. Like, if he's a free agent next off season, he's getting more than the Celtics offered him, right?
- [20:43]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:43]
C
Because of the, like, he's, he's been impressive. Like, it's been a real positive for the season. So when you look at that, like, part of what I'm getting to here is like Hugo, if Hugo continues to play and there's been flashes, like that's important because in this new cba, it's cheap labor for the NBA standard, right? Like, is the guy not having a big. It's almost like the, the old thing, like the quarterback on the rookie contract. But now in this world, in the NBA, you need to have guys that are on cheaper contracts. So if it's like, oh, we're going to get possibly a lottery pick, maybe two lottery picks at a potential and maybe a young player in a Derrick White trade it, like, you have to entertain it because Jason Tatum, guys, he's only 27, right? I know, like the whole 19 thing, but he, he's only 27. Like, he still has a long time obviously coming back from an Achilles, but he still has what, four or five peak years, like prime years in his career. So you still need to find young guys to go around him.
- [21:38]
A
Have you have a quick thought on that before we hit the break?
- [21:40]
B
It's just tough because, you know the Celtics, I'm not saying, like, the spurs didn't develop him and, but the Celtics really gave him an opportunity to shine at a big level. Right? And you know, if things were different, we, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The CBA was different. We'd still be talking about Drew Holiday, who's looked awesome in Portland, by the way. And you know, Porzingis, you'd still be talking about these guys as a unit together and like, again, trying to compete for titles for the long term. But again, with the current NBA landscape, you, you know, at some point someone is going to have to go and whether it's going to be Jalen or Derrick White, who knows? But given the first 10 games of the season, the, the answer is obvious. Jalen has been unbelievable. And maybe we'll dive more into that later. Jalen's been unbelievable. I mean, the Magic game on Friday night, he just took turns cooking everybody over and over and over again. And Derek just hasn't found the rhythm yet. And so again, this is no shot at Derek. We are all big fans of Derrick White, just the nature of the business and it's a conversation. Frankly, I don't think any Celtic fan wants to really entertain and really have because again, we all love Derek White. But right now, not making it easy for the Celtics team that's already behind the eight ball. Considering no Tatum, the lack of bigs, the Derrick White part of this just weighs more and more because of the lack of talent right now.
- [23:12]
A
All right, let's take a quick break. One to tell you that so far, Evan Valenti just sounds crystal clear. So good. Also, a word from our good friends.
- [23:22]
B
Over at Prize Picks. Quick break to tell you. Today's show is brought to you by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the best place to get real money sports action. With over 10 million members and billions of dollars in awarded winnings, Prize Picks has made daily fantasy sports accessible to all. You just pick more or less and at least two players for a shot to win up to 2,000 times your cash. Run your game all season long on Prize Picks. You guys know I love Flex Play. Flexplay bails me out of so many issues that I've had trying to get all three. But I have two out of three. At least I get my money back. And with that being said, and again, for those who's like Evan, why aren't you doing basketball yet? I'm still collecting data. Okay. I'm still making sure we get this right. Because when we do this, I want to make sure that we actually all can profit. So with that in mind, Back to the NFL. We're going to Week 10 NFL Kyle Madangai, who if you had him in any part of your lineups, he definitely did some serious stuff for you. So with that in mind, we're going more than 50.5 rushing yards versus versus the Giants. Not sure if DeAndre Swift's gonna play. If he doesn't, this will definitely go up. If I had a guess. So we're taking manangai more than 50 and a half rushing yards Demario Douglas pop the patriots more than 36 and a half receiving yards versus the bucks. Now no K Sean Booty Stefan Diggs is still the number one target. Hunter Henry is a favorite of Drake Mays, but Douglas has done some serious damage recently. We're gonna, we're gonna stay on that trend as we keep this thing moving. The last part of our lineup Jameer GIBBS More than 97 and a half rushing and receiving yards versus the commanders why do I pick that? Well, Jameer Gibbs is going to get the ball. I'm not sure if he's going to run it or if he's going to catch it from Jared Goff. I have no idea. But he's probably going to have a big impact on a commander's team that probably won't be able to ball too much. And Jameer Gibbs will probably get most of the playing time over David Montgomery. So like Jameer Gibbs in that spot again. Manung guy more than 50 and a half rushing yards. Pop Douglas more than 36 and a half receiving yards and Jameer Gibbs more than 97 and a half rushing and receiving yards. Those are my flex play for this weekend. And if you get all three three x hit two out of three. That's one x that's your money back. And getting your money from prize picks cannot be any easier. In as little as 15 minutes watch that money roll into your account and and price. Pixies is everything including Venmo, which is what I do. Get my money the quickest Download the app today. Download Price Picks use the code CLNS to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5. Again download Prize Picks today code CLNS and get $50 lineups after you play your first five dollars price picks. It's good to be right.
- [26:12]
A
Back with Barrett Ev Adam. We are talking about the Celtics and the ups and downs of this 4 and 6 start to the season where at this moment Boston is just outside the play in tournament. Again. I'm not going to make a big deal out of that. I mean, honestly, if you look up and down the Eastern Conference standings at the moment, like Orlando, who a lot of people you know, going into the season had as an Eastern Conference finalists at the very least, maybe even representing the east in the NBA Finals, that team is sitting at 4 and 5 heading into this matchup between these two teams on Sunday. 10th, the last play in tournament spot in the East, Atlanta, a lot of people high on the Hawks, 9th play in tournament team as it sits right now, the other teams behind the Celtics, the Hornets, the Pacers, the Nets, the Wizards. That makes sense. That is all clear. But you know, the, the one through, you know, 10 right now and even 11 if you think the second Celtics are going to be better than they are, as I do, it's a little upside down. Even the Bulls, 6 and 2, the Pistons, you know, I obviously a playoff team and maybe even a top four seed according to a lot of people going into the year. But seven and two, I don't know how many people saw that. So it's been an interesting start to the year. Clearly across the board and injuries sprinkled in throughout. Already this load management everything. But a guy who has not taken any time off unless you force him, unless you make him sit down is obviously Jalen Brown, who we've talked a little bit about and so far he's answered the bell, you know, any questions going into the year as to whether Jalen Brown could be a true number one if given the responsibility? I don't think the three of us had that question, but there were people out there that definitely did. Brown so far through 10 games in just 31.7 minutes per game, which is the fewest he has played since all the way back in the 1819 season, Jason Tatum's first year, 28 points per game. That is a career high. 54% shooting on 20 attempts per game, both either career or in the vicinity of career highs. 37% from three point range. He's actually done better than that in the past, but it's been a few years. Six attempts per game though. So he is lived, pardon me, in the mid range. 5.8 free throw attempts per game, career high. Oh, I love to see it. And almost he's on the verge of 80 free throw shooting, which people in his first few years would have thought was impossible. The rebounding, 4.9. The assists 4.2. Those are both fine. I mean the rebounding should be better. Rebounding is actually a lot lower and it's Been really throughout the majority of his career. The assists fairly consistent to what they were last year when the playmaking went up. Turnovers, that's a problem. 3.6. He basically is a one to one assist to turnover ratio that you're not looking for. He's not been perfect. I'm not claiming he's been perfect, but he has been great. What I do wonder guys and the Celtics are going to need to get better a lot better to start the process Barrett of answering this question is right now. Brown has shown he could be a number one on a bad team. Can he be a number one on a good team or a very good team? That remains to be seen. But so far any weaknesses in the Celtics collective game you generally cannot put on Jalen.
- [29:26]
C
Yeah, and I would say too like if you look at his potential assist numbers are at our career high. Going back to the whole idea we were talking about earlier. This team is 27th in the NBA in 3 point percentage so he should have more assists. So I think his playmaking has been good and like to the number one point. I don't think he can ever be like a top tier number one option. But I also say it's tough to judge him with this team considering the lack of talent. Like if you just took Tatum out of the equation and you still had Porzingis and you had Jrue Holiday and you had Al Horford, heck if you still had Luke Cornett, I think you'd have, you could critique the record and put some of that on Jalen. Like if the record was 4 and 6 and you had all those guys then I think like that could be a fair conversation. But right now, I mean it's just not a very talented team around him and he's been outstanding. I do think the three point shooting has come down recently. He's one of six against the Magic and we've seen since the calendar turned to November, October, he's red hot from three. But even if that comes down a little bit, which I expect it to be like if he's better than league average, I'm fine with that because I don't think he's ever going to be a great three point shooter despite the October numbers. But the big thing to me is like his athleticism is back. We saw last year. Of course he had to have the knee procedure got shot up to try to play through it. And he wasn't the same dynamic athlete getting to the basket and getting to his mid range game. You'll like you look at his numbers at the rim this season he's 33 of 39, 84.6%. That's third among guys that have taken 30 shots at the rim. He's behind like Jokic and Subac to like big men. So he's finishing at an elite level. He's. If you look at just two pointers made, he's third in the NBA behind Giannis and Shai. He's made 85 twos and, and to the point about like carrying the team well. When Jalen's on the court, they play like the seventh best offense, 117.7. When he's off, it's 109.2, which would be 25th. He's been, I think he's been better than I would have expected coming into the season. Like, I was wondering, hey, can Jalen continue to get better as a player? Right. Considering where he's at and considering also like one of his. Or maybe his superpower is his athleticism. Right. His ability is first. Like he's a specimen. We all know that. He's extremely strong, he's extremely athletic. Like how is your prime? Shorter. When you're that type of player and he's having his best season, he's been outstanding. It's really difficult. Yeah, he's loose with the ball sometimes. It's really difficult for me to critique anything with Jalen. He's been exceptional. All the areas you want him to get better points in the going back to what he's been great at in transition points in the pain mid range Assassin, all that stuff is back. Like he's playing at a very, very elite level.
- [31:56]
B
And it's really, it's about the athleticism in my opinion because like if he can't get by guys, a lot of what he does, the fancy footwork in the mid range, it all gets kind of wiped out. Like you, if, if you don't have to account for Jalen's speed, then you don't have to worry about him getting by. You can play him way differently. And now that he has his athleticism back and he's blown by guys and I have to respect his first step a little bit differently and then it changes things for him and the way he can attack guys, the stuff that you're seeing from him as a mid range guy is what made you, you know, fall in love with him. A few years ago when he was just unbelievable. There was, I think the year they won the title or maybe the year prior to that, he was like better than Kevin Durant in the Mid range like it was like legitimately one of the best guys you could possibly ask for in the mid range at that time. And he's coming back to that and it unlocks every part of his game. We know he's not an awesome three point shooter. There's going to be moments where he's awesome, there's moments where he's not awesome. It's just more about rhythm. It's more about the other stuff for me that I always get more concerned about and as Barrett said, the potential assist stuff. When I had Jack Simone on last week, Jalen was averaging 11 potential assists a game. Which if you had told me that when he was first playing the league, I would say there is no chance in hell Jalen Brown is going to average anywhere close to five assists a game. Well, if guys are making shots, he's probably five, six, seven somewhere up there. So I, I it there has been a maturation to his game for sure. And of all the things that the Josh Minots and the in the Ugo Gonzalez's, the recent play of Jordan Walsh and Pete Pritchard looking off like there have been some highlights but some, some obvious moments where like wow, that's going well the Jalen Brown is with a bullet like the most important thing that has happened this season. He has shown himself to be a real guy and a lot of people have questioned whether he could really carry a team. I again carrying this team, I don't know. Like I don't know if he can carry this team to playoffs. Could he carry a better team? For sure. And again when Tam comes back, life gets a lot better. But it's hard to look at what Jalen's done and walk away anything other than impress because everything that you've wanted to see from Jalen, from a creator, yeah, the dribble. He's always going to be loose with it. He's always going to average three to four turnovers a game. If he's really the primary initiator, that's just the way it is. But the way he makes reads, the way he cuts, the way he, he gets his shots off like that, all, all that stuff's gotten better and frankly confident. I couldn't ask any more out of.
- [34:22]
A
Him if the NBA worked like the NFL, let's say. And you know who doesn't go back from time to time and think about how The Patriots. Sure they like Will Campbell, but they shot themselves in the foot by going out Joe Milton, Gerard Mayo winning that final game against all the Buffalo players that Obviously SAT didn't play. I mean cost themselves the number one overall pick. Even if you weren't going to use number one, you certainly weren't going to take a quarterback you could have traded down. Still got Will Campbell, gotten all this draft capital. You know what I'm saying? In the NFL you can dictate your future, you can openly tank, you can strategically lose. And in the NBA we see year after year, time after time. I mean ask fans in Washington, Utah among others, how they're feeling about last year's draft when Dallas was a play in tournament team had a less than 2% chance of winning the lottery. Did got Cooper flag everybody shouts rigged in the wake of the Luka Doncic trade. And here we are, the Celtics sure they could be a play in tournament team, lose, not go to the technical playoffs and still finish with a top three pick. I don't think it generally works that way. Usually you do need to at least come close to bottoming out with what you've seen through 10 games. Barrett, Ev you as well knowing and you highlighted this right now it looks like a stud draft class. Not just at number one but one through three, one through five. Like there's a, there's a good crop of prospects there at the top of the draft and different guys that would fit you and your system very well. And you talk about high caliber players on cheap money deals in the, you know it relatively speaking, what would be right now like it's easy to ask in going into the season but right now with what you've seen, now that we put eyes on it, has it altered your perspective in terms of what you want? Like do you, do you, do you find yourself watching these games night to night and saying you know what, screw it, just, just have your rebuild, develop Walsh, develop Ugo, hopefully. You know, Minot obviously incredible bright spot some of these guys, maybe they emerge. You know who Jalen and Derek is, Peyton Hauser, like you know all these guys are let's, let's get a phenom in here. Or do you want that playoff spot and then hope for the best and what is clearly a wide open east if and when you have Jason Tatum back.
- [36:44]
C
Yeah, I mean I rather get a high draft pick and maybe it's not like you said the top three pick but the other reason that you would want that is just because well you can use that as capital for a trade. Right. Like we see all the time in this league. You get disgruntled players like can you use a first round pick to pick up somebody via trade. Brad Stevens, we've seen historically he's been very good in trades. Whether it's the smart Porzingis trade. When you got the draft picks as well, the Drew Holiday trade was kind of just like a no brainer. It's like, hey, this is what you have to give up. First round pick Robert Williams, you do that in a second. But just having that ability to have like a valuable asset if the Celtics do end up somewhere in the lottery. But to the first point, about, like, do you cheer for them? So I can't, like, I, I can't watch a game and cheer for them to lose. I, like, I was so getting so aggravated. The New Orleans game where Zion wasn't playing, I'm like, please. And then the Utah game on Monday night, I was getting so upset during that game. I'm like, what is going on? Like, can somebody guard George just like a little bit? Can somebody, like, try to defend him? And man, that was a really. And even the Orlando game, very aggravated with how that thing turned out. Like, this team is searching for offense and we're not playing Simons in the first half. Wait, what are we doing? Simon's got. Simons went nuts in the fourth quarter, had the 11 points hit critical threes, and then they took him out for three minutes during that and finally brought him back in. I'm like, why is Simons off the court? He's the reason you're in the game. So, yeah, to answer your question, I can't cheer against him. But I do know in the back of my head, like, the best result for this team is to end up somewhere in the lottery. Whether you make that pick and you get a young player to pair with Jalen and Jason Tatum going forward, or you use that pick to trade for some sort of veteran that fits with.
- [38:23]
B
Those guys that I would argue the most frustrating thing was that first quarter against, against Washington. Like, that was especially after Utah.
- [38:33]
A
I told you, I texted you, I said, this is my breaking point. This game is the line of demarcation. If the Celtics lose to the Wizards, I'm out. I'm rooting for a loss every game the rest of the year. Now, obviously they go on and they win that thing by, you know, plus 40 over the final three quarters. But that was, that was the game. That was the needle mover for me. If that had gone sideways the way Utah did, I was, I was done.
- [38:55]
B
Yeah, no, and that made a lot of sense, but it's just like, it's. It's hard. It's it's. Given the current landscape. I mean, look what VJ Edgecom's doing for the Sixers right now.
- [39:05]
C
Yeah.
- [39:05]
B
Literally changed their entire complexion going forward. I'm not even talking about Cooper Flag. It's over here and that. And it's funny that they've had the worst like, offense in the history of the NBA. From an efficiency standpoint, the first 10 games. Never would have seen that coming.
- [39:18]
C
It's crazy when you. It's crazy when you ask an 18 year old forward to play point guard to start his NBA career. What could possibly go wrong on a.
- [39:26]
A
Team with 717 bigs?
- [39:28]
C
Yeah. It makes notes. They have nobody on the team that can dribble. Can I ask you guys this one question? Sure. Do we know is Simon's like anti ufc? Is he anti the Town, Is he anti Man City?
- [39:43]
A
Like, why, why does Joe hate him?
- [39:45]
C
Yeah. Yeah. What is it? Right? Like, he didn't play in the second quarter against the Wizards either. Like, I'm trying to figure this out. I don't get like. Because even if, okay, even if, like, he's not part of, like, you trade him at the deadline, right, to save money or whatever, you'd like to have some value on that player. Like, I, I don't get it.
- [40:01]
A
Well, Unique, he wasn't really good. He played two minutes in the opening half, but he was a minus 11. Like, that's almost impossible. I saw. But a buddy of mine texted me, he's like, was he just laying there like, how do you go minus 11 in two minutes?
- [40:16]
C
Yeah, but he got you back in the game in the fourth quarter. He went nuts.
- [40:21]
A
Yeah.
- [40:22]
B
At a point where Joe obviously kind.
- [40:23]
A
Of decided the game was already over.
- [40:25]
B
Well, he tied it up. Yeah, he was. He got red hot. He hit a. He hit a deep three. That got him in rhythm, which I just killed me because I was like, oh, no. It was one of those no, no, no. Yes. Shots. And he got, he got that. The thing with Simons is he can heat up immediately.
- [40:41]
C
That's the thing. That's why I just think he needs like, it's just weird how like his minutes fluctuate. Like, it's weird he wasn't giving you.
- [40:48]
B
Good minutes in the first half of the Orlando game. Again, he was -11 in two minutes. Meanwhile, Ugo and Walsh and Minot. But Minot has cleared so many people in the rotation that I don't even talk about that anymore. Minot's obviously over here. But you go and waltz like those guys are giving you at least energy minutes and are at least giving you defense. Like Simons isn't giving you any defense right now. He's just, he, he might be trying, but it's just, he's just not that good. Like, how many times did Orlando put him on Paulo get whatever they wanted because they had Simons on Paulo or Simon's on whoever they wanted to get him on, and he got killed. I mean, that's, that's, that's the reality of it, where you have a Walsh who's picking guys up full court and, and, and he, you know, making Paulo pick up his dribble a few times. Ugo is literally insane. Like, I, I love every second of it because it's just chaotic of him running around all over the place trying to try to pick everybody's pocket and then run down. It's just fun. It's fun to watch. Those guys are giving you way more positive minutes and kind of got you back in the game in the second quarter. Like, they were only down eight going into halftime and you had a way different feel for that game than you did at the end of the first quarter. End of first quarter. It's like, oh, God, you're gonna get the doors blown off him by Orlando, who's been absolutely terrible this year. And to be fair, Orlando was red hot in that game, which they haven't been all season long. Like, Wendell Carter Jr. Is hitting threes and it's just like, okay, cool. You know, Bain's hitting threes for the first time this year, which he should have been doing in the entire time anyway. Anthony Black's hitting shots. It's like, okay, part of this is because Orlando's shooting the lights out. But also part of this is just they're, they're getting their ass kicked. But like the two guys that I would argue, you need to see some stuff out of this year with, with Wall, especially Walsh. Like Walsh, it's kind of a make or break year for, for Walsh, but with him and Gonzalez, they were at least giving you something off the bench. If Simon's is a hidden shots, then it's almost kind of like worthless to have him out there.
- [42:46]
C
But he only played two minutes fair. Like, he only played two minutes and he didn't play at all in, in the second quarter. My whole thing is just like, I don't think he's a perfect player and I don't even think he's part of the long term solution for the Celtics. But if I was in the front office, I'd be like, hey, can we play him a little bit more? Like, if we're going to trade him, we'd like to get something back in return. And second, early here with Simons. How many guys on the Celtics can actually get their own shot? Jalen Brown, Peyton Pritchard, and right now, like, I don't even know. Can Derrick White break guys off down off the dribble? So Simons is the third guy, right? Like, he's the only. Like, you and I. I totally agree. Like, it's more important long term to see which avenue go. And he's. He's been so fun to watch. I mean, the other night, he's, like, flying into the stanchion trying to block shots. Right? And my knot's been fun to watch. And Walsh, like, this is definitely a positive development. What we've seen recently, I had almost wrote him off. I was writing him off like, he's not going to be part of the equation. So that's more important. But I do think for a team that is struggling to score so often, Simon just has to have, like, a guaranteed spot in the rotation, right? Like, he needs to get minutes because you need a scoring punch.
- [43:54]
A
You're not going to get any disagreement from me. I mean, I was the one that was sitting here making the case for him to win six man of the year going into the season, simply believing that the opportunity was going to be there. But we've had Steve Bullpet on. He talked to, you know, execs around the league who said Anthony Simons might leave the Celtics in scoring this season because he's fit so well into the Missoula ball system and shot volumes from three, and all of this stuff. And. And listen, he's taken. I'm looking at it. He's taken a dozen shots per game. Seven of those from three, 42% shooting, 39% from three. It's not like he's shooting poorly. I mean, you know, be nice. Obviously, take him up to 45 and 40, respectively. Like, that'd be great. But he's. He's not shooting poorly. The. The points per game average is. Is not terrible or anything like that. He's. He's sitting at 14. I thought it'd be higher. I thought it'd be closer to, you know, 18, something like that. Still could be, again, small sample size, especially for a guy playing 26 minutes a game. But it's that defense, man. I mean, if. If. If he can't stop a nosebleed, and if he's a turnstile out there, he's it's going to cut into his role on this team during impactful in game minutes where the game is still in question. And I realize, yeah, he got hot in the fourth quarter, he tied that game. But I'm not sure Joe Missoula hadn't already kind of decided we've lost this game. Like, I know it wasn't a full on empty, the bench like what we've seen in some of these spots, Houston, Utah. But I don't think it was, I don't think Joe at that point believed.
- [45:23]
C
No, that game was there. They could have easily won that game. That game was there for them in the fourth quarter.
- [45:27]
A
Quarter. It was there for that. Yeah, I mean it was there for them in term in terms of the numbers they got back, they clawed back. It was there to take. I just don't know if Joe at the beginning of that rally believed it was there for them. I think they sort of stumbled into that, if that makes sense.
- [45:43]
C
Well, one thing I would say to that point, like, I think Missoula always think he has a chance to win. I think he's just like an insane competitor. But the other portion that if you look at the minutes, it is kind of like, wait, hold on. Like you would expect, Jalen's playing like 42 minutes and Derek White's playing like 40 minutes a game. Right. And Pritchard.
- [46:00]
B
Yeah.
- [46:01]
C
So that is one thing where it's like, okay, they're not tanking, but they're also, they also know where they are in the landscape of the league where they're not going to go full throttle all the time with their best players because they know it's more important for them to be at their best next year.
- [46:15]
A
You know what, I get it with Jalen, I get it with Derek. You know, these are obviously assuming they're both part of your future. They're, they're well paid, they're, they're assets, their, what's the word I'm looking for, Pillars of the organization. Peyton Pritchard can't play 35 minutes a game. Like, I mean, he's got to be at 32. He seems like a dude that should be living out there and would want to. I think he would play 48 minutes a game if you asked him to.
- [46:43]
B
Oh yeah.
- [46:44]
A
So that one surprises me a little bit.
- [46:46]
B
But again, it's more about just, you know, do we need to tire these guys out? What's, what's the point?
- [46:50]
A
I, I would tire Payton out, sure.
- [46:54]
B
He's. He, I, I love, I love, I just Love watched him. I mean, the stuff that he does by Peyton, his hit, the use. I don't know if anybody uses their shoulders better and elbows, like, better than that guy. He's just so good at just like that little.
- [47:09]
A
Just.
- [47:09]
B
Oh, he creates so much face with that. It's so good. I love it. It's. It's the guy that's short. As a guy. It's short. Like, I just love what. I love watching him do that stuff, it just cracks me up because he's. He's got a lot of strength and he's got a. He's got a lot of. A lot of chutzpah to get in the middle of the paint with these taller guys. Man, he just. I love watching him. I. He's been. Other than Jalen Brown, my favorite guy to watch in this team. He's been so much fun.
- [47:34]
A
It's been.
- [47:35]
C
What was that? Drew Carter calling him on Friday. Was it paint points p. Or something like that?
- [47:41]
B
I don't know.
- [47:42]
A
I missed that.
- [47:43]
B
It's pretty good.
- [47:44]
A
I think it was painful.
- [47:46]
B
You got to keep. Got to keep trying. You got to keep trying them out there, see what happens. I mean, I'm into it. He's always doing it. He does a good job of like, trying to come up with fun, fun ways to give guys nicknames. I think that's fun.
- [47:56]
C
Yeah. He does get so much separation on that, though. You're right. Like how he gets. He a. He can get guys off him and then he has like that two point step back where it's like almost like. Like a follow a shot that he gets to. It's pretty impressive.
- [48:10]
B
Yeah, I like how the. How the refs let him do it. Like, because you could call some offensive files sometimes some of the stuff he does, but it's also like, dude, that guy's six eight. He's six two or six one. Deal with it. Like, we're gonna let it. We're gonna let him have that one. Like, what do you get?
- [48:26]
A
He.
- [48:27]
B
You outweigh him by 60 pounds. Guy like, deal with it. Like, he's got to find a little. You know, I. I love that because you could sometimes you can call for that stuff, but they don't because it's like he's got to find a way to make a living somehow. I think it's great.
- [48:39]
A
All right, as we wrap here, guys, three games before we have our next show. The Celtics will play at Orlando again tomorrow. As we sit here at Philadelphia Tuesday, back home against Memphis and John Morant, provided he is still a member of the Grizzlies at that point on Wednesday. And then there's a gap between Wednesday and Sunday just to look ahead to this next game. In particular, my feeling going into the latest game against Orlando, the first one I had said, you know, when talking about this one, is I think the Celtics will lose the NBA cup game on Friday. They will win the game on Sunday. They will split in Orlando. I don't think anything happened on on Friday that changes my opinion in that regard. Unless obviously like Jalen and or Derek are ruled out or something like that. But, you know, if the Celtics are what they are supposed to be from a personnel standpoint, I do think Boston goes out, gets the win in this one. How do you guys feel about it?
- [49:33]
C
I think they'll lose. I just.
- [49:37]
B
The size of Orlando is too much. Orlando's too big.
- [49:40]
C
Orlando's such a dis. Like there've been such a disappointment this season, but that's. And especially considering what we saw from them that playoff series last year, I'm like, oh yeah. And then they got Bane. I'm like, this is an upand cominging team and Bane is just not. He's better last night, but he has not been great for that team at all. But yeah, I think the physicality will overcome the Celtics again.
- [49:59]
A
Unfortunately, I did hear Sean Grandy on the radio say the and this was when the Celtics were leading at a point in Orlando last night. That seas have not won in Orlando in the regular season in three years. So be nice. Be nice to crack that streak tomorrow as we sit here. But again, Brian Barrett on Twitter it's Brian Barrett, host the off the pike podcast for the Ringer and Spotify. We always enjoy when he hops on here with us and Barrett. Don't be a stranger, man. We'll do it again real soon.
- [50:28]
C
All right, fellas. Enjoyed it.
- [50:30]
A
All right. Make sure you check out the CLNS YouTube page, specifically the all access page for great Celtics beat and other Celtics related podcasts across the CLNS media network. We're all over the place. There's also a lot of great Patriots coverage. That team red hot looking for seven straight in Tampa Bay come Sunday. Plus 125 on the money line if you want to invest. I know, I'm thinking about it. I think Drake may takes down Baker Mayfield. Should be fun to watch. The Bruins surging five in a row. Can the Bees keep up their hot play? It'd be nice to get a winter season out of these Celtics and Bruins to not just sit here and look ahead to spring training. And oh by the way, yes, we have Red Sox related podcasts as well. A lot of decisions for that team to be made here this off season. For Brian Barrett. For Evan Valenti, I am Adam Kaufman. Thanks to our friends and at Prize Picks, thanks to ev's new computer. We appreciate you being with us. We'll talk to you again real soon.
- [51:24]
C
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C
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