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- [00:01]
A
Discover the extraordinary fragrance Ariana Grande REM Cherry Eclipse. Delight in Black Cherry Jubilee, Sugared Honeysuckle, Marshmallow Meringue and Glowing Amber. Get the perfect fragrance Ariana Grande's REM Cherry Eclipse exclusively at Ulta Beauty.
- [00:20]
B
Today is Friday, November 21st and this is Celtics Beat on the CLNS Media Network, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of the Boston Celtics. I'm Adam Kaufman. Episode 651 features WEI's Justin Turpin.
- [00:34]
C
And I'm Evan Valenti. And today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of CLS Media. Download the app today, use the promo code CLNS and get $50 in lineups when you play. $5.
- [00:58]
A
Hey everybody, welcome in new edition of.
- [01:00]
B
Celtics FE on the CLNS Media Network. We always encourage you not only download the podcast wherever you get your audio, of course, Apple, Spotify, Pandora, you name it. Check out the CLNS YouTube page, specifically the Celtics All Access page, to see our content, all the Celtics Beat shows and a number of other great Celtics themed podcasts across CLNs. And don't look now. Or maybe do. Honestly, this is weird. I don't know whether this makes you, the viewer, the listener, happy or if it upsets you. But the Celtics, they have won three in a row. Four out of five. They're over.500 at 8 and 7 for the first time this year. It took 15 games, folks, but they are over.500. And guess what? As we sit here on a Friday afternoon, knowing full well the Celtics do play tonight, the back half of the home and home series with the Nets, the 2 and 7 winless at home. Brooklyn Nets. It's only going to get better or worse for Boston, depending on your perspective again surrounding playoffs versus ping pong balls. And I'll tell you what, as someone who just wants to be entertained on a nightly basis, give me the wins the lottery. It is uncontrollable. I'm not going to worry about that as we sit here not even at effing Thanksgiving. So it's going to be four in a row after tonight. That's why we're not waiting until after tonight. And God forbid there's a serious injury that throws off the entire importance of this podcast leading into this Orlando game, which is coming your way on Sunday. It's back home. It's at the Garden. Justin Turpin is here with us. First timer on the program with me here anyway. And of course Evan Valenti and Justin, welcome to the show for one. And secondly how are you enjoying this Celtic season? If we take a 10,000 foot view of what has been happening so far this year and this little stretch of catching fire against inferior competition, are you happy or are you sitting here kind of game to game watching, not knowing what you want in the moment?
- [02:56]
A
Well, yeah. First off, thanks for having me on. And to answer the question, it's weird. I think that's the best way to put it. Like you don't really know what you want. Like you're talking, people are talking. Tanking before Thanksgiving. Like you alluded to there. It's like, what are we doing? Like, what are we looking for? It's just kind of not what you're used to with this team. So it's been fun. I mean, looking at different kind of projects and how they're developing and, you know, looking for different silver linings and what many people are looking at as a developmental year, it's been kind of entertaining. And for them to be over 500 with the, the start to the season they have, with that schedule, you feel pretty good. I mean, there were people talking about them being 07, you know, going into that those first seven games, like there was just a brutal stretch. And for them to be sitting at 8 and 7 on the year after tonight, it'll be 9 and 7, two games over.500. You'll feel a lot better. And I think you would have signed up for that 10 times out of 10.
- [03:48]
C
I want to point out here because this is Justin's first time on the show. Kaufman, we're recording this before the Brooklyn game on Friday and you and I had a conversation. Does this really matter or not? I just want Justin be prepared for some, some to happen tonight because this is, this is just how the show works. There are countless examples since Kaufman and I have been doing this show and I don't remember, what are we in year seven here? Year six, something like that?
- [04:14]
B
Yeah, 2018 we started.
- [04:16]
C
Yeah. So it's been a while. The amount of things that happen right after this show's done recording that we're, that we can't just like, hey, let's hop back on and do it entire show. So just be prepared for, you know, you specifically. But everybody else, something's gonna happen tonight. And I apologize, Kaufman, that we didn't take this into consideration.
- [04:39]
B
No, listen, two ends of the spectrum, Ev, like one of two things is going to happen and it's not. This isn't as simple as win loss because they should win. They're double digit favorites at home and I know. Celtics double down. What could possibly go wrong? They should obviously win. But even if they lose, other than effing up my parlays, this is going to be a situation that doesn't really impact the team one way or the other. So it's the nitty gritty of the news, and it's either a great thing like Jaylen Brown is going to drop 65 points or Derrick White is going to suffer an injury and miss the next three weeks. It's pretty much one of those two things and no in between.
- [05:20]
C
Yeah, I am just trying to prepare Justin for this because this is. Again, this happens to us frequently. And I just want to get him as part of the lore of the show to make sure that he's on board with. Like, if something happens tonight, you're just gonna be like, you guys were totally right. I cannot.
- [05:34]
B
Yeah, he's gonna go. They told me. They tried to warn me.
- [05:37]
C
We did. We tried to warn you about this.
- [05:38]
B
This is what they were talking about.
- [05:40]
C
It's annoying. Yeah, good. I'm glad. But like. Yeah, so the back to what you guys were actually firstly talking about. About, is this more exciting? What is going on? Is there enjoyment? What is it? I. I gotta be honest with both of you. Like, I have. I do root, like, I root for the wins because I don't like watching shitty basketball. Like, can you imagine being a Kings fan right now? Can you imagine, like, the Grizzlies, Okay. We were recording this on Friday. The Grizzlies took care of Sacramento. But was the final score a 40 point blowout? 50 point blowout?
- [06:12]
B
I believe so.
- [06:13]
C
And.
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B
And, oh, by the way, Memphis sucks.
- [06:15]
C
Yeah, that's my point.
- [06:16]
B
Right. Like, that's a pretty relevant detail.
- [06:19]
C
The three of us watched the Celtics play Memphis a couple of games ago. Like a week or so ago.
- [06:25]
B
Basically beat them by 40.
- [06:26]
C
Yeah. And that was. That's a team. You look, you watch Memphis. No jaw. There was obviously no Desmond Bain. Triple J played, you know, Jordan Walsh covered him, which was the best part of the entire game, but held them all for five. That. That's a team that in the first two weeks this season is already just sleepwalk into May. Like, they don't. They do not care. Like, it's very obvious that's what's happening. Do you imagine how bad you have to be to get blown out by 40 points by that team? Like, I would much rather be on this side of the. Yeah, they could win tonight. They could lose tonight. You know, as long as nobody gets hurt. Like, I'M not really worried about it. Like, yeah, if they get the lottery, like, whatever, cool. But at least this brand of basketball is entertaining. They're not getting the doors blown off. I'm like, the Sacramento Kings, the Memphis Grizzlies, like, even the Washington Wizards have more fight in them than what, what, what the Kings are doing and what the grids are doing. So as we sit here and try.
- [07:25]
A
To be like, oh, is this fun?
- [07:25]
C
It's not. Like, it could be way, way, way worse. And this is like the worst season the Celtics are going to have in like a decade is like this season right here where they're like going to kind of figure out what the hell they are. This is amazing that this is the down years of the Celtics recently. I just want to just take a minute to say is, we get ready, we're getting closer to Thanksgiving. Something to be thankful for here that the subjects are at least entertaining. And there are storylines that, Justin, you could admit, like, that are very interesting every single game this season.
- [07:53]
A
Oh, for sure. And you can respect how they play. I think that's another thing as well. Like, they're going out every single night and giving their best and the effort's always top notch. And if it's not, they're not in the game. Like, that's the best thing about this is Joe's holding them to a high standard, as if they're still contending for an NBA Finals. And everyone knows he. I think Joe even would admit himself that that's not the expectation. He would never say that publicly, but, you know, he's not naive enough to think that this team actually has a chance to win a championship this year. And the whole organization feels that way. But for them, all the top guys down, every player on the roster coming in and just giving it their all every night, like you could respect that. And I think especially in this city, they can get behind, like a scrappy underdog, a team that just earns their respect, that they're going to make it worth your time each and every night. And I think that's something you can respect about the way they're playing. So, yeah, it's much better so to be on this edge of the spectrum. And also it's like you're looking at these other teams, no matter how hard they try, they're just not going to out tank them. They had 20 turnovers against the Nets and still won by double digits. Like, you're just not going to out tank those teams. There's just no way around it. So why not root for the wins. Like, why not? Like, at least make this more entertaining. And you know, if they're project like everyone's projecting them to be around.500, that still might be good enough or bad enough rather to get you to where you want to be in the draft. Not, not near the top, but you might be able to still get a good player there. So, yeah, it's been fun. It's been fun. You can respect how they play. They made it interesting. They're making it worth your time. And it's much better to be above here, like you said, than, you know, looking up like the Kings or Washington or Brooklyn or any of those teams.
- [09:21]
B
Well, look, 15 games, seven losses. As mentioned, there's only one game the Celtics have just outright not been in and that was the Houston Rockets game, which honestly probably shouldn't have been. That's a team that is considerably better than you as constituted right now. That is a legitimate contender. The Celtics are a fringe playoff team as they exist in this moment. But while you guys were talking, you got me thinking about something that Ev, it's interesting there. I feel like in, in this mode, you know, basically all that has happened since the end of last season with getting under the second apron and selling off pieces and Tatum being heard in this, not a rebuild, but a reset, the restructure of what is happening as we wait obviously for Tatum's return, whether that's this year, start of next year, positioning yourself for Banner 19. There aren't too many topics that we have not touched on. Here's one that we have not touched on. Joe Missoula. We've had a lot of conversations around his coaching philosophies. Missoula ball. Did they change? Does he experiment? Do they do different things while they are a different looking team? In this incarnation, he's a championship winning head coach. He's had a lot of success in a very short Runway as a head coach. He has been extended. He's not going anywhere. Despite what some fans, not us on this program, but some out there think of him. He is here to stay for a good little while. I would say at least a few more years. We're in a weird year. We keep using that word. It's a weird year for the Boston Celtics. Everybody involved, management, the players, and maybe most especially Missoula. Is he the right coach? Not that there's an alternative. So just go with me on this. Justin and Ev, I want your opinion too. But Justin, you'll start. Is he the right coach for this situation? Is he the right coach to be coming off of being a perennial contender, building up to once again be one, but now having to deal with a back half of the roster that there's a lot of youth and or inexperience and a collection of guy the guys that you're trying to decipher, whether or not they're part of your future. Is he the right mind for that? Because we have these conversations at times like, oh, Doc Rivers, he's not the right coach for a rebuild. Not really sure he's the right coach for a contender either, but you know what I mean. Is Joe Missoula the right coach for NBA purgatory?
- [11:45]
A
Yeah. @ the risk of sounding like a mega homer here, I think he's the best option for them in this situation from an X is an O standpoint and from a mentality standpoint. And we'll start with the mentality side. Like, you look at that starting four right now that the start the four, the four position, the forward, the in the starting five, it's been so fluid, right? It started with Sam Houser, Ugo Gonzalez got run. Then they went to Josh Minot. Then it was Jordan Walsh. Now tonight could be Baylor Shireman. Like, it's been so fluid and you really haven't heard anyone making a big deal out of it. Like, they are so invested in that and they understand that he's holding them to the highest standard. Jalen Brown the other night played 10 minutes in the first half. He goes, well, Joe's just holding me the standard. Like, I get it. I was playing poorly. Like, he's got them lot, like, so bought in from a mental aspect. And that's important when you're dealing with a team like this. Like, everyone's fighting for their opportunities. Like, you think Josh Minot is really happy that he come out of the starting lineup as he's trying to fight. Before the season, he said this could be his last chance. And now he was a starter and now he's on the bench. Like, you think he was really happy with that? Like, probably not. And you didn't really hear anything about it. And then we're talking about this roster being a transition year. And this gets to the X's and Oats part, their top six offense, their top 10 in net rating and they're just outside the top 10 in defensive rating at their 11th at that time of recording here. Like, if you're looking at that and then you compare that, like, compare and contrast that with the roster, you're like, oh, wow, he's doing a pretty damn good job with what he's got. Like, because you look at that team, it's like, that's a top six offense. Are you kidding? Like, you wouldn't think that. Especially when your best scorers, like, well, two of your best scorers and Peyton Pritchard and Derek White couldn't hit water out of a boat for three weeks. Like, you got to feel pretty good with what he's doing.
- [13:25]
C
Yeah, I like to look at not only those things, but also some of this. Like, you've seen developmental jumps from certain guys, like you're seeing right now with Baylor Scheireman, who's starting to really come out a little bit here. Saw that with Jordan Walsh earlier. Minot obviously has gotten better as they've used him the May Escada through the summer, obviously with Portugal and now here. Like, those guys have all gotten better. Like, even Peyton Pritchard, who is the sixth man of the year last year, has gotten better. So all those guys in this umbrella, in this system with Joe Missoula, have gotten better since they were last year. Like, there's no question about it. I also would use the. They are playing a little differently and there's some examples of this, but the biggest one to me, and this is defensively, is they've gone from one of the worst turnover forcing teams in the league to like middle of the pack, which is a ginormous jump from what they were. They were more of a we're not going to follow guys. We're going to try and, you know, contend on rebounds, both offensively and defensively. We're not going to go for steals. We're going to try and, you know, guard our yard, so to speak, try and stay in front of guys and not gamble this year. Fouls are up. No question. They're following the out of guys. I mean, what did. Garza had six files in 14 minutes the other night? Like, that's. That's just rough. Minot's been pulled early for follows. Jordan Walsh has been pulled early for files. There's been a lot of fall trouble, but there's that for a reason. They're gambling a little bit more. They're going for steals, they're going for deflections a little bit more. Yes, they're still shooting a ton of threes. I get that they're not getting out in transition as much. Right. They're not. The pace has been slow. There's reasons for that, but there's at least some differences that Joe has said. This is my roster this is what we're good at, this is what we're bad at, and I'm going to maximize that. And so I question whether Joe was the right guy for this job throughout the summer. Kaufman, you've heard me say it. I didn't think that Joe was, you know, locked in after the season. If it was really rocky, then I would entertain a, like a coaching change. Nothing so far this year has made me feel like that particular storyline is actually going to happen. This has gone, I think, as well as anybody could have reasonably asked for. And if you were expecting better, I think you were a little crazy. And if you're expecting worse, then I think you're a pessimist. But I entertained that for a while. This has been pretty good. And I would say, Justin, like, pretty encouraging, given the guys that weren't contributing a ton last year are really stepping up this year.
- [16:07]
A
I mean, to that point, like, this was make or break for Jordan Walsh. Like, you had gotten nothing. And part of that is because of his age. Like, people Forget he's only 21 years old. He's played less than 75 career NBA games, and he hasn't had much opportunity because of the team that he's been on. Like, there's just been so much talent. There really hasn't been opportunity for him. But he was in Maine last year. He struggled in every summer league. It feels like. It's just. You really haven't seen those flashes that you were hoping for from him. And then, boom, he's in the starting lineup contributing and, you know, locking down guys like Tyrese Maxey in. In the fourth quarter. Like, doing a great job holding his own against J. James Harden, shutting, holding Jaren Jackson to 0 for 5 shooting. Like, you're seeing the things that they drafted him for. Like, he's rebounding the basketball, he's crashing. Offensive rebound is such, like, a big thing for this team now, and he's done a great job with that. And defense is why they went out and got Jordan Walsh. And he's done that same thing with Baylor. Scheireman, you're seeing him make leaps on the defensive end. To me, Ashkeda, it's not hyperbolic to say has been one of the most impactful centers in the entire league. Only Chet Holmgren has a better net rating than he does at of bigs. So, yeah, he's been great. And that's kind of what this year was all about. Like, who steps up and who can contribute to the next iteration of this team. And you're looking up and down the roster and you're like okay, like most of these guys have shown at least something and you feel confident about them with them moving forward. Obviously you know we're so young into the season, like there's a lot that needs to go right still like you can do it for a 15 game sample. Can you do it for across a whole 82 games? So we'll see that. But all in all you have to be very pleased with the developers development for some of these guys.
- [17:38]
B
Let's take a quick break, tell you about our good friends over at Prize Picks.
- [17:42]
C
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- [19:49]
B
With Justin and Justin, something you mentioned earlier was, you know, the Celtics for a little while, their best shooters. And I'm, I'm taking Jaylen Brown out of this equation and all due respect to what he's doing in the mid range, maybe we could talk a little bit more about JB and all the different things that he is achieving on his Twitch stream and on the court and everything in between. But the, the pure shooters in terms of key role players here. So sorry. Sam Houser, Payton Pritchard, Derrick White, how they couldn't, you know, hit water earlier in the year, that has obviously changed. Look back over the last six games. Peyton Pritchard all of a sudden is shooting 46.3% from three on an average of nine attempts per game. Derrick White over his last five games, similar window, 38.6% from three on 8.8 attempts per game. The volume is there, the results are there. Have these two guys found their shots to the degree that you believe they're here to stay? They're not going anywhere. Everything behind them is a blip.
- [20:51]
A
I think they have and I think it would be oversimplifying it to say they were just missing open shots. And part of that is true. They were missing shots that they typically make, but they also had to adjust to their new roles. And Derrick White in particular is doing a lot of creating for himself like last year, almost like what, over 50% of his threes were assisted. That's not the case this year. He's creating for himself a lot more. It's a lot more off the dribble as opposed to catch and shoot. And that's a difference. Like that's a big difference and that's how he's been getting his threes the last couple years. So yeah, it's. There's a little bit of an adjustment period with that. With Pritchard, I think it was more so he was missing looks that he typically makes. Like you go back and look at some of those shots, it's like, why is he missing these shots? Like these are wide open threes that he should be making. But part of that is true for him as well, where he has more of a responsibility as a playmaker. So again, it would be oversimplifying it to say that it was entirely them missing shots that they could make that they usually make, and that was certainly part of it. But they were getting used to their new roles. And of course with three point shooting, it's always going to fluctuate. Even the most consistent ones, shooters go up and down. Like that's just the reality of how it is as a three point shooter. But I think these guys have found it and they've now grown comfortable enough in their new roles where this is what you can expect.
- [22:05]
C
Yeah, the, the Pritchard stuff is to me like it just was for me, just a three pointer because all the other stuff that he was doing by getting to the basket or at least the in between game from 12 to 15ft, like all that stuff's been really, really good and really positive. The fact that he can create space and still get a shot off against guys that are much, much taller, much, much bigger than him. I think it's been one of the again we talked about a year of developments, maybe the best development they've had other than kata being a serviceable big man that could play. Like, I think what was it for? What game was it this week? Maybe it was the Brooklyn game where yeah, we played what, 33 minutes, which was at least a Celtics team high, like a Celtics career high for him.
- [22:47]
B
That's.
- [22:47]
C
That's been huge. And you know, there was a Steve Bopet article that came out yesterday, Thursday, talked a little bit about Keda, about him being. That might be Steve right there.
- [22:59]
B
It came out on Thursday, Evan.
- [23:02]
C
I know Thursday, but it talked about Keda and you know, somebody quoted in there said Kate is a third big. And I would just blatantly disagree. I think he's at the very worst a starting center on a team that's pretty nah. But on a team like Boston that who has higher expectations, like he's definitely your backup big a la Luke Cornette coming off the bench at a very minimum. I think he's very serviceable. And the fact that he has to play starters minutes is more of a reflection on Boston's just real bent and not on Keda's skill in general. And like I got a little side sidetracked here, but I do think with Keda I want to go back to Pritchard in a minute. But like Justin with Kate, like I don't know what else. If he just like started hitting threes, that's pretty much all I got left that I need to see to be like, no, this is A guy you definitely need to roll with going forward. He's been remarkably good and you mentioned that. The plus minus. He's one of the plus minus darlings of the year so far. But the. The eye test backs that up. He looks significantly more comfortable so far this year.
- [24:14]
A
Yeah. To your point about the depth behind him, the Celtics are outscoring opponents by 131 points with Kate on the floor. That's a team best. They're a minus 53 with them off. That's a team worst. And Kate has been great. And again, like, I'm not taking away from him at all, but he's. Has he been that great that, like, the numbers are that stark? Like, I don't think it's necessarily that. I think that has to do a lot with the lineups. And, you know, Garza's starting to turn it around a little bit, slowly but surely. But he struggled at the beginning of the year and I think that kind of inflates that a little bit. But he's been great. And I'm with you. Like, he's shown that he can be a second center on this team and that's a big deal, especially with the new second apron restrictions and all this. It's so imperative now to develop young talent, to get talent that's homegrown and that you can get on cheap money to stick around. And I think Kate has proven that he can do that. And they have just such a high standard for him. The Celtics, the organization, all the teammates, Joe Missoula, like, they truly believe in him and they have since he arrived in Boston. And he's proven them right this year. So I think part of the net rating and the on off numbers are reflective of the depth behind them. But he's been great this year and I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody that wouldn't feel comfortable with him being your number two right now. Again, we're still early in the year. Can you do it consistently? But I've been very impressed with him and I think he's been one of the more encouraging developments this year.
- [25:35]
B
Something we were texting about earlier. Evan, our Celtics themed NBA themed group thread regarding Keita is obviously, you know, where exactly he slots in. So there's one end of the spectrum like you were talking about with the Steeple Pet article. There's kind of the other to where people like Justin and others are. Are very high on him, obviously. What's the middle ground? I guess I'm wondering here, Justin, to where. Thinking ahead, thinking big picture thinking about Banner 19 and what it takes to get you there. I assume you're still of the belief that, okay, like Kata should be on the roster. Kate is a, a serviceable piece. He's. This is a good big, but backup big, starting big. What kind of role would you like to see him have on this team? And if the answer is backup, is there a desirable, attainable, affordable acquisition that fits in?
- [26:24]
A
The answer would be backup. And I, I would have to dive into the affordable numbers. I think this is going to change, right, because this would be for the summer. So I think depending on where they're at with the, with the cap restrictions, like, they can really be creative and go out and really get whoever. Like, they're going to have a lot of open money this summer. So I would think I really want more of a guy that can stretch the floor. And as good as Kate has been, he's just not, he can't shoot right. And you want guys, especially in those Tatum lineups that can stretch the floor in space. Like, that's why one of the, like, the biggest components of the Celtics success over the last two years was just how good their spacing was. And you're just forcing defenders into such a hard decision because you're not going to help off Al Horford, you're not going to help off Kristaps Porzingis. It's just like it is so hard to guard them when their spacing is as elite as it was the last two years. And granted, it's going to be tough to find a player like that like you had with Christoph Sportsingis when he was healthy. Even Al Horford, like, he was just so reliable in those corners. Like, you need somebody that can be a true spacer. And I think that's what I'd be looking for this summer. And like, I don't really see them going out and getting somebody at the deadline this year. Unless, like, I know Anthony Simons is going to be an interesting trade piece, but, like, what's the market for him right now? I know he's been doing a great job, like with his three point shooting and he's been scoring off the bench not, albeit not very consistently. The defense hasn't really improved as much as people would like to see. The effort given night necessarily hasn't been there either. And that's probably why he's seen less minutes. So I wonder like, what they're going to do with the trade deadline looking ahead to there. Like, I just feel like they're content with what they've got. They knew going into the year that this was a developmental year, this was a gap year and they're going to load up this summer when Jason Tatum's back. And like that's the. Brad Stevens has been clear about this from day one. Like the most important move, the most impactful move that they're going to make with between now free agency, the trade deadline, whatever it is, is getting Jason Tatum back on the floor. And it's going to be all about complementing him with players that best suit him. And I think that would be a true stretch five, which as good as Kate has been, that's not his game. So I think I'd feel more comfortable with him in that backup, backup center role. And that's still an important role. Obviously like Luke Cornett was great for this team and part of the reason they were able to be so successful is because anytime a big man went down, Luke Cornett was able to slide in and just immediately be impactful. And I think if Keita can get to that, you're going to be really happy with what you have.
- [28:44]
C
I think I would use the Cornet in the KEDA minutes as a way to say I don't need a floor stretcher. I think they've done just fine with guys that are your normal pick and dive. You know, if they could shoot a 12 foot jump shot, 15 foot jump shot, that's great. But I don't know if they necessarily need that. It's a bonus. I'm not saying you're wrong on that. Like it's definitely a bonus to be able to step out to the three point line and hit three point shot because it does change geometry on the floor a little bit. But I think they're playing a guy, Nick Claxton, who I would be trying very desperately to figure out how to way to get that guy because he does a lot of the things that Keita and Cornett do, but he does them at a much better level. He's a little bit more fluid as an athlete, although I would say Kate is a pretty good athlete. He's just a little, he's got a little bit more miles on him, has played a little bit more so he can read things a little bit faster. Heck of a defensive player, heck of a rebounder, heck of a shot blocker, would be a really good presence at the rim for them that they're kind of desperately missing. I mean they get it from guys like Derek White, who's the best shot blocking guard. This is crazy ever. But I I think they could use a guy like Claxton is a guy that is similar to what they already have but a better version of it. And yeah, yeah, it would be awesome to bring a guy that could search the floor off the bench. But like Boucher kind of does that and he can't get any playing time because he can't do the other stuff. I think they really value some of the other stuff too. And I would, I wouldn't just pigeonhole myself into finding a serviceable three point shooter over all the other things that a center is supposed to do for you. You know what I mean?
- [30:16]
A
Yeah. And you're right with Boucher. I think that's what people were hoping that he would be kind of. Not to the level that obviously poor Zingus and those guys did it, but somebody that can come in and be a floor spacing big because again, like Garza was another one that I honestly thought he'd be doing a lot more pick and pops. Like it's really pretty much all entirely rolling. Which has kind of surprised me a little bit because we heard about his three point shooting before the per 36 numbers really liked him as a three point shooter, but he really hasn't taken those shots where again, like he's taking.
- [30:44]
C
More practice shots than any player in the league. You know what I mean?
- [30:48]
A
He's definitely working on it. I, I bet you Cato's up there too. He gets up a lot of threes in practice and stuff. It's kind of surprising. Like what was against Philadelphia? He had that open above the break three and just missed it brutally. I was like, oh, this poor guy. Like that wasn't even close but like he hits them in practice. And granted that's a lot different than actually in a game sense. Like when you're shooting in an open gym, you're not really being contested. It's a lot differently, but they do work on that. But I think the, the, another cornet comparison, like I was saying, like kind of similar to Garza. Like Garza, you thought there was kind of a three point shooting there. At least Cornett was more of an established three point shooter when he got here and just phased it out. And I think Garza's kind of done that as well.
- [31:26]
B
Have you been. We've mentioned him a few times. Anthony Simons. I came into this year with relatively, I'd say more than modest, I mean high expectations for Simons and what he was going to look like in a Celtics uniform. Not only in terms of performance performance, but opportunity And I think those two things have kind of gone against one another. The performance, you know, has not been great. Therefore the opportunity has been sparse. Even when the opportunity is solid, he might still vanish. In terms of minutes, you know, there was the one game where he had 25 points in the first half, for instance. I think he played two minutes in the second half. So we have again, it's, it's, it's Joe Missoula playing with the rotations, the lack of a pattern. He acknowledged that, you know, this week, asked about substitution patterns, he said, in order, you know, for there to be a pattern, a pattern would have to exist. Basically, you know, he's, he's seeing the coaching staff, they're, they're figuring this out on the fly man. But Simons, ultimately, if you just look at the raw numbers, he is getting 25 minutes per game. He is averaging 13 points, two rebounds, about three assists, two and a half assists. Anyway, he's getting into two fouls per game. The assist to turnover ratio is two to one. Terms of the shooting specifically, he is at 41% overall, 40% from three, 84% from the free throw line. No issues with any of that. I thought that the volume would be higher in terms of the shots. 11 attempts per game, six and a half from three point range. Is he playing less of a role through 15 games than you thought he might coming in?
- [33:02]
A
Oh, for sure. When you're reading those numbers specifically at 25 minutes of game, like he was like, it feels like some of those minutes are invisible. I think the second half in Brooklyn on Tuesday was a perfect example of that. It's like he was out there playing, but you don't even see him. He's, that's not really making an impact. So I'm with you. Like, I had pretty high expectations for him as well. Because when you're looking at it, and this is just Jason Tatum, like if you're looking at the production that Jason Tatum accounted for about 25% of the shots that make the makes, the points, the rebounds, the assistance, like, you know, you have so much ground to make up. And I thought Simons would be a perfect guy specifically on the offensive end to kind of help make that up with this playmaking and his scoring ability. He's a 20 point per game scorer over the last three years and it's just, I feel like it's a weird fit for him. First of all, he doesn't look comfortable coming off the bench and he kind of alluded to that in the preseason where he's like, yeah, I'd done it before, but it's still a little weird. I was overthinking a little bit and that kind of raised some antennas a little bit. It's like, oh, he really does not like this. And it feels like just we're back to the Derrick White, Malcolm Brogdon and Marcus Smart trio here where it's just such an odd kind of mixture, where it just doesn't really work out. And it's a bummer because I really had higher expectations for him and I feel like a lot of his scoring nights have been aided by just these explosive stretches. Like you mentioned the first half against Orlando, like he just went crazy for like a 10 minute stretch and that accounted for almost all of his points on the night. Like, he's had great stretches, but he just hasn't really put it all together yet. And you know, it's still early. Like, obviously this is a big change. He went from being the number one option the last couple of years to now coming here, coming off the bench and really kind of fighting for his opportunity. So it's been a little bit different. But yeah, I'm for sure with you. It's like I expected more from him this year.
- [34:47]
C
At the same time. At the same time, though, I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, they should pull Pritchard off the starting lineup and start Simon.
- [34:53]
A
No, I'm sure not.
- [34:54]
C
Absolutely not.
- [34:55]
A
And that's, that's the issue with it. Like, we're just kind of wrestling with.
- [34:59]
B
What'S, you know, what's the goal of the franchise. Right. I, I think, I think it's pretty evident. And I'm not saying this is bad. In fact, I think it's good. I think it's evident that the team is prioritizing, giving minutes to guys that they're trying to evaluate whether they're part of their future. And it seems pretty clear. And there was no debate. Debate wouldn't be the right word. I think there were some people going into the year making the case for if Anthony Simons could be good, how would he look as a real part of the team? With White, with Brown, with Tatum, when he's healthy, if you get him back on a reasonable contract, sort of feels like the organization has decided that he is not part of the plan already and they're just kind of using them when it's convenient, using them when they need some, you know, some microwave action rights and buckets off the bench. But this if the moment, the second an appealing trade pops up, he's gone.
- [35:57]
A
And I feel like you do that trade again. I know Drew Holiday has been great, but obviously that was not getting rid of jrue Holiday. That was getting rid of the contract and getting under the second apron. And if you're able to get an impactful player like Anthony Simons, you do it. Like, you absolutely do it. And you see if he can fit, especially on an expiring deal. Like, see bring him in. Like, see what happens. See if he can contribute to this team. And I'm with you. I feel like that decision has been made. And honestly, it feels like it was made in the summer. Like, they shopped him pretty hard all summer long and there were no suitors. And I think that said a lot about his value around the NBA. Maybe teams are really looking at that defense, but I feel like at the trade deadline and this is something to monitor because they can obviously get under the luxury tax by moving him. Like, if they do decide to move him, I can definitely see a team possibly over paying for a shooter. Like, they get desperate for scorers like that. And you have a scorer like Anthony Simons who's just so established in what he does. Like, I can see a team maybe overreacting a little bit and trading for him. So that's going to be interesting to see. But it has been a little bit of a bummer because, you know, for as well as everyone's played this year in their new roles, I feel like everyone's kind of elevated. It's taken some time, but everyone's kind of slotted in pretty nicely with the exception of Anthony Simons and Chris Boucher. I feel like those are the only guys right now that you're like, you haven't really seen much from those guys. And Simons, again, has had his moment, his moments. But just relative to expectations entering the year, it feels like it hasn't been great.
- [37:18]
C
But is there any validity to the argument of, like, you're tanking your. Your draft, your. Your asset, right? Like, you're not putting him in the best position to get the best return back. Is there any validity to that? Because, like, again, you're looking at everybody and like, yeah, maybe Houser's eventually going to get moved for somebody, you know, maybe one of the young guys you can trade off in a. As part of a package of. For something bigger. Is there any validity to the, like, hey, if you're looking to really move Simons, you need to put Simons in the best position to do stuff and bring him off the bench. Isn't the best way to do this.
- [37:52]
A
I don't really see it that way because, again, like, it feels like the summer was pretty telling about what the league thinks about him as of right now anyway. Like, they worked pretty hard to try to trade him this summer, and it didn't work out. So, yeah, it feels like that kind of said everything that you needed to know that, like, the league really wasn't a ton of interest in him. And, yeah, you can look at it that way. But they're also trying to tinker, like you said, like we've been talking about. They're trying to see what's next for this franchise and that they hope, I think, would be Peyton Pritchard starting it as your point guard, like, and you want to give him that opportunity, let him get used to that. And I think part of the problem with this whole Simons and Pritchard argument is that Pritchard won six man of the year last year. So everyone's like, oh, look how impactful he was last year coming off the bench. Like, why'd you take him off the bench? Like, he was great as a six man. Like, the reality is I think Pritchard had the ambitions to be a starter, and the Celtics want him to be as well in the next iteration of the team. So, yeah, like, I can see why people are saying that, but it just. It doesn't feel like it's really. There's not much there.
- [38:49]
B
Yeah, I. I'll. I'll take it a step further with what you're asking. Ev. I know you're not asking this exactly, but this is, I guess, where I take it is I think if a team in the summer, we're looking to trade for Anthony Simons, or if a team right now we're looking to trade for Anthony Simons. The Anthony Simons you're getting back is the Anthony Simons that we've seen for years in Portland. I think your opportunity, you know, but right now you are. If you're not taking the asset, you're certainly not elevating the asset. I think if you were trying to give him any sort of a value, that to Justin's point, to all of our points, we've said this a million times over on this show. If you're trying to give value to someone who didn't have value elsewhere during the off season, you need to use them differently. And that doesn't mean starter. It doesn't have to mean starter. I mean, he's a starter in Portland. Peyton Pritchard, as we just Said was sixth man of the year in start. It's not about starting. The minutes are the minutes. Whether you come off the bench or whether you're leading, you know, leading the second unit, starting what like it doesn't matter. What matters to me, I would think is again playing through him, making sure that a la Derrick white, he's getting nine three point attempts a game, not six. You know, that the shot that he's getting 15 shots a game, not 11, that you know, there's real opportunity to score and produce in a high volume way. Like you mentioned, bullpet. Opet had the article that we talked all about back late in the summer into the, into the preseason about the executive that believed that Anthony Simons might be Boston's leading scorer this year. You got to use him in a way that's going to make him more appealing to somebody else. You know, right now you're just seeing the same guy that you saw in Portland, but worse, arguably because he's not producing at that volume. He's not getting the opportunity to produce at that volume. The minutes are obviously lower. And he's still a sieve defensively, as our buddy Seth likes to say. Routinely, he's just a bad player. So if you're going to attempt to attach any sort of a value, even if it's, you know, hey, we'll give you Anthony Simons, you give us two second round picks, something along those lines. And getting off of that contract, it. He needs to be able, be able to showcase something. And I just wonder, I wonder if the Celtics just feel like this is not a guy that ultimately can help us win.
- [41:12]
C
I just want to make a quick point about you'd mentioned, like this is not what they're used. Like he's coming from Portland. Where he started was their, you know, one of their main offensive weapons in Portland. And the, the not the, the notion around the NBA is that we know what Anthony Simons is. Couldn't you make the argument of like, dude, if you just came off the bench and killed it, it would change the perception of you around the league. Instead of being a guy that's just like he's got it or he doesn't have it. Like again, we mentioned that Orlando game where he was on fire in the first half and then like disappeared the second half. Him being a reliable bench weapon actually would potentially slightly change his perception of like, oh, you know what? He doesn't need to be in the starting lineup to be a guy that you could use. He's, he could, you could go to him at any time. You could just call his number whenever you want. He's ready to go. It's like you talk about the stay ready group that we talked about with Abby last week. Yeah, I just, you look at that mantra, that mentality of I'm always ready no matter what my number is called, even if it's not called. Like, if Simons were to adapt that philosophy, it's possible you could even change his opinion around the league because again, I do think that some of the. Again, if he was, if everybody wanted him, if he was so if he was such a hot commodity, he wouldn't be on the roster right now. Somebody would ever, somebody else would have. Again, I know it might be a straw man argument, it might be something that's way but it's possible he could change his own perception by buying in here a little bit more. That's all I'm saying.
- [42:44]
A
Yeah. And it feels like. Yeah, no, it definitely feels like this would have been a role going into the year. You would have probably even felt comfortable with them because he's getting, he's just such a pure scorer. Like he's just a bucket getter. And you feel like he could have just kind of adapted into whatever role. And again, when the opportunity is not there, it's pretty tough. But even at times when they have tried to run the offense through him, it hasn't looked great. Like, there's been a couple times where it's like, oh man, like this is this, this is getting a little, little ugly. Like he's forcing shots, turning the ball over. Like that's happened a couple times. But I'm with you. I think the opportunity needs to be there for him to be at his best. And that's anybody that goes for anybody and especially him in this role. So, yeah, it's been a little bit of a disappointment, but again, it's so early in the year that you got to be a little bit patient.
- [43:30]
B
All right, so Justin, before we decide to wrap this thing up, you look at this upcoming stretch. Of course, this tonight is as we sit here is an NBA cup game. I realize many people won't listen until after this game has been played, so I don't want to do a Nets preview. Plus, as a double digit favorite, basically a 15 point favorite, I'm guessing all three of us do believe cover the number or not. Boston ends up winning this game. So we look ahead to another game with Orlando. You've split with the Magic in a couple of battles. Both at Orlando earlier this month. This Time, it's at the Garden coming up on Sunday. Who's going to be watching? I don't know, because football's on. But putting that aside, then you have Detroit, who is the, you know, if the Oklahoma City Thunder didn't exist, this team is hotter than the sun. You know, the best team in basketball, certainly in the Eastern Conference. And then of course, you know, we'll be back before this, but a little two game trip to Minnesota and Cleveland, couple of, you know, conceivable contenders in the NBA. So this right here is a stretch. Whereas you had Memphis crap team, Clippers, vastly underachieving team, back to back with the Nets. Bad, bad winnable game against the Magic, but obviously a team that a lot of people were very high on coming into the year. Magic, Pistons, Timberwolves, Cavaliers. I, I never would have said this obviously in, in previous incarnations, installments of the Boston Celtics, but where we are right now feels like you'd be lucky to go two and two during this stretch. What is your feeling about these upcoming games?
- [45:00]
A
This, this little stretch is going to tell you a lot about this team and, or this Orlando team's a lot different than the one you last saw. Like they've won five of their last six. Detroit's won 11 in a row. No bank arrow. Yeah. And sometimes like, you know, they were decent last year without him, so maybe.
- [45:15]
B
That could be finally playing like the guy they wanted him to be when they acquired him.
- [45:19]
A
I thought the offense would be better with them. I'm kind of surprised it's taken them so long to get it going and now they're starting to turn around a little bit. But this upcoming stretch is going to tell a lot about this team and like how much can the, the effort and all that stuff, how far can that bring you? Because that's not going to fly again. Some of these teams, it's worked where they haven't necessarily shot the ball well, but they've been able to still win because of their defense, because of their rebound. That's really not going to fly against these teams. Like you're going to have to shoot the ball effectively to win these games. And even the Cleveland game, like, I think we'd all be in agreement that this, you're going to see a different version, the Cavaliers, than you beat earlier in the year. Like that was probably a down game for Cleveland that you're probably not going to see again. So this is going to tell a lot about this team and how, how good or how competitive they can really be.
- [46:04]
C
All right.
- [46:05]
B
Well, I think we're going to put a bow on this one. If, if you're listening to the audio, everything sounds great. No mic issues with Ev, by the way. Those are a thing of the past. He sounds terrific. We may, if you're watching the video, have discovered a new issue, however, where Ev, for the last several minutes has looked frozen in time and kind of has a sad kitten face. Is. Is sort of best I can describe it. I don't know why you're a smiley guy and the.
- [46:30]
C
I know it's, it's.
- [46:31]
B
It's just grabbed you in the wrong.
- [46:33]
C
Way of par for the course, buddy. You know, just if it's not one thing, it's another. I was, I was doing some stuff, you know, pre show, trying to record some things and I, I was having. I don't know.
- [46:45]
A
I don't know.
- [46:46]
C
I bought a new laptop. I'm trying everything I can, guys. I don't know. I even found my, my HD camera.
- [46:53]
B
I found that.
- [46:53]
C
I was fooling around with that a little bit earlier. Maybe that's what screwed everything up. I don't know.
- [46:56]
B
It could be. It could. Listen, last week, it was great. Whatever you did last week, do that again.
- [47:01]
C
Yeah, I'm gonna restart this computer right now.
- [47:04]
B
Right. All we need is a graphic over your head. Says like on the phone.
- [47:08]
C
Evan Valenti, Breaking news, breaking news.
- [47:11]
B
All right, Justin Turpin with us for the first time on Celtics beat. You can get him on Twitter, I believe. Justin M. Turpin, correct?
- [47:16]
A
Yep, that's right.
- [47:18]
B
Awesome. Of course, covers the Celtics and the NBA for weei. Make sure you check him out there. And Justin, a pleasure, man. Always enjoy, you know, checking out your content, having you on Nesson when we do that as well. And let's make sure we have you back on the show with us again real soon.
- [47:32]
A
For sure, guys. Thanks for having me on.
- [47:34]
B
Definitely. For Justin forever. And I am Adam. We remind you, Celtics all access page on the CLNS YouTube page. Great place to explore all your favorite Celtics content across several podcasts, including, of course, this one. Rate Review Subscribe Leave Comments we love seeing you in the comments section. Be nice, be mean. It doesn't matter. Just be appropriate. Be something that we don't have to wipe from the Internet because it's, you know, volatile or something like that. But you can, you can or whatever. I mean, say whatever you want. Honestly, as long as it's clean, we might even read it. We definitely look to respond to it. We will see you again next time after the Celtics. The surging Celtics pick up their fourth win in a row. And then who knows where it goes from there?