A (2:10)

Beat on the CLNS Media Network. We thank you for finding us. Whether it is on the YouTube page, specifically the CLNS Celtics All Access page, you can always find Celtics Beat there and of course podcast form. Great review. Subscribe download all of these things. We always appreciate it and we'll talk more about that maybe a little bit later on in the program. I am Adam Kaufman. My thanks to my partner here, M. Valenti, for holding down the fort last week. It's good to have the two of us back together and of course to welcome in a veteran of the NBA Beat, but also part of the clns family as well as the A List podcast. Gary Washburn, welcome back to the program. How are you, sir?

B (2:49)

Great to be here. Happy holidays.

A (2:52)

Same to you. And well, I get.

B (2:54)

Look, happy holidays, Kwanzaa, Christmas, Hanukkah, whatever it is.

A (2:58)

Yeah, listen, light the candles upstairs. You got the, got the tree. We're a, a in interfaith home here, Gary. We, we celebrate all of it because we just love parties.

B (3:10)

Yes.

A (3:11)

Whatever it is, whatever it is.

C (3:14)

Let's.

A (3:14)

I'll tell you who loves a party. The New York Knicks. Love a party. Before we even talk about the Celtics, let's talk about that celebration of, of the third now annual NBA cup, the Emirates NBA Cup. The prestige of Adam Silver's brainchild of the in season tournament for the NBA. Which by the way, I will say if anyone has not been paying attention to this, it's a very small sample size, but it is a predictor of playoff outcomes. If you go back, we had the Lakers two years ago beating the Pacers. And last year we had the Bucks beating the Thunder. In both cases, the Lakers and the Bucks went down in five games in round one. And then the Pacers and Thunder at minimum reached the conference finals. Pacers, of course, got swept out by the Celtics on Boston's way to a championship. The Thunder, they won the whole damn thing last year, as we know. So basically, Gary, what I'm saying here is Bing Bong, New York, good luck. One and done. Five games. Best of luck to you and Spurs. We'll see you in the conference finals. I'm looking forward to it.

B (4:24)

Yeah. If you want to put two and two together. Yeah.

A (4:29)

Yeah.

B (4:29)

I mean, I think it's, I think it's a good sign, you know, I think to see the Knicks come together and play some of their best ball. I mean, if you're, if you're a Knicks fan and you know, for the Knicks, a team that's kind of been looking for an identity and, and has had their rough start to the season in terms of playing on the road, it hasn't gone as well as could be expected. And for them to kind of find this, I think it's a, is a good situation for them. Do I think the Knicks are like the best team in the East? I don't know yet. Tough call. I like Detroit, but I think for the Celtics sake, if the Knicks are the best team, that's some, that, that's a team. I think with the right luck they could push in a series. I don't think The Knicks are this juggernaut. They're not the Thunder. You know, they're. I don't even know if they're the Nuggets or the Rockets, but to me, maybe I think this does something good for their psyche in terms of. I, I think the Knicks post Tibs losing that series last year, firing Tibs. They're still trying to figure things out. Mike Brown, is this gonna work? So I think it was good for them, that comeback. I. I watched most of the game, second half especially, and, you know, they were down 11, and it looked like they were just going to lay down and for them to come back and, you know, they're the team that, that last night was a team I think people fear with Brunson. And then Anobi is capable of good things. Cat. Like, they got a lot of talent. It just hasn't come together. So we'll see if this lasts or. This is a thing where they peak.

A (6:19)

Gary here, of course, covers the entire NBA, not just the Celtics, for the Boston Globe. So always enjoy having you on, to be able to speak on the league as a whole. By the way, just. We don't need to talk about this, but I applaud the Knicks for announcing they are not raising a banner for this stupid thing. This tournament is dumb. Gary. You know, since we're just before this, it's not Nick's beat, it is Celtics beat. We'll get to the Celtics and how they match up throughout the East. But here's what I do want to at least voice is that the NBA, like, decide what you are, right? One foot in, one foot out. Decide what you are. With respect to this, I understand the introduction of this tournament to the league. And Silver. Wanting to make regular season games in the middle of the season versus just a random, you know, Tuesday in December or whatever it is, like, make it meaningful. I get that. And there's no question, because these guys, they're not motivated by hats, T shirts, banders. They're motivated by the $500,000 check that they each get for winning this thing. Fine. Whatever gets you out there playing hard and avoids more load management, I'm all for that. What I don't like is that the league can't seem to decide kind of what this is. And what I mean by that is last night's game, for instance, the championship game of the NBA cup, statistically doesn't count the numbers. The stats for the guys, they don't count toward their regular season stats. Good luck, by the way, even finding their stats to these Games. If you look back on the Lakers game against the Pacers a couple of years ago, you go to like LeBron James game log. You're not going to see it. You got to go, you got to dig deep to find box scores of these games that, that don't actually matter. But whereas the stats don't count, the game played counts. Doesn't count for your win loss record. For instance, the Knicks entered that game last night 18 7. They came out of it still 18 7, but the game counts toward the 65 required to be eligible for postseason awards. So Wemby, whereas that game doesn't actually count. It's kind of generally meaningless. Doesn't do anything for him statistically. Oh, wait, it does it. He gets the game played. Which matters, of course, when you're a guy like him that everyone is saying, yeah, first team all NBA defensive player of the year, MVP conversation. Oh, but can he stay healthy? Because he's not eligible for any of that if he doesn't play 65 games. So every single one counts. To me, that's backwards. The, the N. You can't have one without the other. It, like, it can't not be a win, but it's a game. It can't not count, but it's a game. The stats can't not matter, but it's a game. All for award consideration. That to me, it's just, it's stupid. The league needs to figure this out.

B (8:54)

So you're saying like, just because the semifinals and all that count, it's just the final doesn't count?

A (9:00)

Yeah.

B (9:00)

Okay, so you think that they should just find a way to make it count or make it an 83rd game?

A (9:08)

I guess so. I mean it. Ultimately I just want there to be some consistency. Like even, even the, you know, I'm going down the rabbit hole here. But like the play in tournament, unless something has changed, those stats are not playoff stats. They're obviously not regular season stats. They're just these isolated, weird games that don't count. They count toward getting you into the playoffs, but statistically for a guy and for a team, they don't count. So it's a lot of like, what is this and what are they and what makes sense? And I just don't like the confusion. I don't think the players like the confusion.

B (9:41)

Yeah, I don't think that there's a. I don't think that there's a good answer because you're going to have to add an extra game to have this tournament. I think that to make the Championship kind of null and void. You're right. You know, in the play in stats don't matter. I think that what Tatum had that 52 point playing game against Washington a couple years ago and it didn't matter for his stats. So. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm, I applaud Adam. You, you really trying to get these guys paid. Like you're trying to, like you're looking at the like incentive clauses and all that. Like you're trying to make sure Jason gets another 50 point game on his resume.

A (10:20)

Sure.

B (10:21)

Yeah. Okay. You're, you're, you're. For the players here. Okay. Okay. I, I think the tournament has worked out better than people thought. I thought it was not a good idea. This is not soccer. People do not care about international soccer. But it has worked and it has added some incentive into the season, into the kind of the doldrums of early mid December where we would generally be talking about the College Football Playoff bowl games and the last few weeks of the NFL season. Now there is NBA discussion. Then flip, you know, flip it a week ahead. Now we're talking about the Christmas Day games and now the NBA seasons begins to roll a little bit. So I think it was a pretty good idea from Silver. But I don't think you're ever going to get a perfect situation where every game matters, every game counts and somebody's not playing more than 82 games unless you want San Antonio, New York to be. To play 83. Now what we don't have is, and luckily hasn't happened is a major injury in one of these games. You know what happens there if we pulls his calf muscle or tears his calf muscle or anything like that. We haven't had that. We have no idea how teams should celebrate. Obviously the banner isn't going up in New York, but what does this really mean? Both teams, last two champions, lost in the first round of the playoffs. So it does not mean some kicks. Kick. You know, kickoff to a great season and you're just going to be a dominant team. It means you, you're hot at the right time, you had the right matchups. You know, it wasn't, you know, New York played Orlando without Franz Wagner. San Antonio was able to get by Oklahoma City. And then, you know, you beat a good San Antonio team, but with their best player when Binyamin. A minutes limit. However, I think for momentum, for confidence, it's great. And for generational. Sorry, generational general league conversation in mid December where people are looking and saying, I ain't going to pay Attention to the NBA till around the All Star break. And that's what you know, because it's. It's a. All about football. And remember, Adam, like, you know, we're. We're in this time now where everything's undetermined. Like the last week of the NFL season. Like, isn't there games that still haven't. The days haven't been decided.

A (12:47)

The, like, Saturday, will it be Sunday?

B (12:50)

Exactly.

A (12:51)

Like we're 18 is entirely unknown.

B (12:54)

That was never. That was never. I think. I think the most ridiculous thing is the NFL all, you know, division opponents must play each other on the final. That adds more intrigue to the season. It does. Like, really, like, you know, the Patriots playing the Ravens on the. The last game of the season wouldn't be intriguing. They have to play the Jets. Are they playing the Jets? The Dolphins, one of them. Like, that's intriguing. Like, you know, like, to me, it's. This is ridiculous. Like, I'm a Rams fan. The Rams have to flip and play the Lions and three days later play Seattle on Thursday night to fill the ratings for, you know, to play their biggest game of the season three days after playing the Lions. I mean, that's ridiculous. This Thursday Night Football or three games on Christmas day. And I haven't looked at the schedule, but everybody's telling how bad the games are on those Christmas Day games. Like, we are bending over backwards for television. We're bending over backwards for attention. We're bending over backwards for ratings. That's part of what this play in or in season tournament is to get ratings, to get attention. And it's still playing. Played in probably two thirds of field arenas in Vegas. It's not like Vegas is all fired up for this. The players are. But it's not like this is. Oh, my God. I go the in season like it. So I think it's a good idea. Will it last for the long term? I don't know, but for now, I guess it's okay.

A (14:27)

Yeah, Ev. I think one of the other things for me, I don't want to, like, go on and on about this tournament, but one of the other things, and it's all part of it is, yeah, you know, what you're building up to with these isolated semifinals, finals in Vegas. But before that, this thing is spread out for weeks of. Of fans wondering, probably even players wondering, honestly, are, is this a cup night? Is this a cup night? Well, which court's on the floor? And, like, there's no you. The cleanest way to do it, obviously, would just be to, you know, pause the regular season in the middle of the season and have this two week tournament or whatever and just blow through this thing and get it over with. And you can kind of achieve the same thing if we're going to have this whole in season soccer tournament or Maui Invitational or whatever the hell it is. But it's, it's just so all over the place and feels unnecessarily chaotic. That's where I'm coming from on this. I can, I can digress after whatever parting thought you have on it.

C (15:18)

Well, you just kind of sound like a nerd, my guy. I mean, I just, just take a step back for a second. I thought the basketball last night was amazing. I thoroughly enjoyed with the product. Well, but part of the reason why they have it is because the product at this time of year is usually not so great. Right. It's usually not as intense. Last night felt a little like something. It felt like kind of like an event. And I think it's kind of what they're going for. They kind of want to make a spectacle out of these, you know, boring, ish regular season games. I think part of it had to deal with, you know, the Knicks obviously command a ton of spotlight women. Yama basically does like three things every game that you maybe have seen once, twice, three times before in your entire life on a basketball floor. So I think part of it last night has to do with the, the parties involved with the game. But I do think the fact that last night was fun and interesting and people were talking about it is the exact reason why it exists. And I think last night was a little bit more of proof of concept of. Yeah, we gotta tweak this a little bit. Like your point of we gotta make these games kind of count for something. I, I agree with that. I think it's weird that the stats don't count, but yeah, it sort of like, I get your point there. I think that's fine. But I do think the fact that that game mattered a little bit more last night carried over. It was conveyed. I think Amazon did a great job of kind of laying out the red carpet. They had like an hour and a half pre game show. You had Adam Silver on the show, you got Taylor Rooks in the house, you got Dirk Nowitzki, you have Blake Griffin, you have Steve Nash, you have this big event. I mean, Spike sitting courtside, whatever the, I don't know the guy next to him, no idea who that guy was, but Spike was sitting courtside next to the Knicks bench. Love that, like, I think there are tweaks to be made, Kaufman. But it was fun. It was great. I enjoyed it. And I think that's sort of the. The spirit of the idea. Am I wrong?

A (17:23)

No, I don't think I. I don't think you're wrong about the spirit, I guess, on foot. Well, Gary, tell me if I'm off base with this comment. This tournament's three years old, so let's just go back five years. You know what?

C (17:35)

The.

A (17:35)

The league is not all that much different now than it was five years ago in terms of, you know, it's gotten worse with respect to load management and that type of thing. Thing. But the general mentality of the modern athlete is the same as it was five years ago. If you take this back to, you know, 25, 30 years ago, when you still got Jordan and guys like that out on the floor, did you feel like.

B (17:59)

Because I was.

A (17:59)

I was younger, like, you know, to me, every night was exciting because I was a kid. But you in. In watching the league, did you feel like mid December games had enough pull on their own? Or were they, you know, to use the word that. I think we just used boring, lethargic, unimportant, whatever to where it was, like, you gotta spruce this thing up somehow, the way that the commissioner is looking to do now and obviously has over the last few years.

B (18:28)

Yeah, everything was, let's say, 95, okay. Like, you know, or 2,000. Okay. Let's look at that time. I think every. The NFL was. The NFL, but it wasn't as big now as it is now in terms of, like, obviously, the fantasy implications. Everybody's into every team. There's, you know, multiple shows every day examining every NFL team or most of.

A (18:56)

Them, every gambling, social media.

B (18:59)

It wasn't. It wasn't that. Right. It was, you know, so football had its audience, baseball had its audience, you know, and basketball had its audience. And college football had his audience. So right now would be 30 years ago, would be the bowl season. Right. And none of the big bowls were until after the New Year's Eve. Right. It was when the. When the. You know, when the big teams. And then sometimes I don't even know if they had, like. I don't know, I forgot the playoff system. Like, I remember, you know, Michael Vick playing Florida State in the Sugar bowl. And I was like, you know, I'm saying they lost in Florida State the year.

A (19:37)

Florida State, back when the Bulls mattered.

B (19:39)

Yeah, exactly. Like, New Year's Day was huge. Right. So. But I just think all the tv. The emphasis on TV has just really changed everything. It was, I mean, you know, in 95 or let's say 2,000, like, most Celtic games were on TV. Some of them were on cable. Some of them, I'm sure sports channel Boston. I want to probably say some of them were on regular tv, the regular network. I still get people who ask, why aren't Celtic games on, like, Channel 5 or Channel 7? Why are they on in. Like, I don't have cable. You know, they just literally, they got their regular TV without. With a. You know, I don't even know the. If they have basic cable packages, they want to know why they can't watch the Celtics on regular tv. So I think the emphasis was just different. It was much less. It was much. No one in December was like, oh, basketball sucks. I'm not paying attention. Like, if you were a hoop fan, you were. You were paying attention, especially. Let's go to 95, 96, 97. You had. I mean, the league had Jordan. It had Kobe, a young Kobe. It has Shaq Duncan. I mean, you had superstars, right? Young superstars. You know, when the Duncans and those guys. And then you had the Shaqs and Alonzo Mournings and you had a lot.

A (20:58)

Of superior talent before all these guys.

B (21:03)

Yeah, all of them were either at, you know, some of the end of the career. You had young Iverson that came into the league in 96. Like, you know, you had. You had talent. So there was interest there. It's just now everybody's focused on ratings, and we have to compete with the NFL and. And we don't want the NFL and especially with this college Football playoff dominating. Like, I don't know how much of that really monetizes for the NBA. I don't know how much the having discussion really puts money in the league's pocket or is it just, you know, it's like, we'll see, like, what the ratings were on Amazon last night. Are they big or what Are they large? Are they. Are they. Not so much. So I just think, honestly, then there was room for everybody, and there wasn't the competition. But the NBA wasn't trying to compete with the NFL. The NBA was just trying to grow its own entity. And then they also had Jordan. Jordan helped the NBA immensely. You know, I mean, and then you had Shaq. You had personality. So I don't know if this would have been. I don't think it would have been necessary in 1995 or 2000 to do this. I think. I think Adam Silver is coming to this league and tried to revolutionize it and more internationalize the game. That's what the. If there was no. Nobody cared about international players in. In 2000. No one you know Dirk, you had, you know, oh, that dude from Germany had never seen like nobody was watching Euroleague games. Nobody cared. Nobody was going to Slovenia and watching a young Luca. You know, like they were like they like they were probably eight, nine years ago where they gave this a 16 year old kid who plays for the Sylvanian under 18 team who's ridiculous. Like no one, you know, no one cared. Basketball was a strictly American sport and now obviously Silver's quest is to go international. So let's adapt some things from international soccer. Let's, you know, let's. Now we're doing this ridiculous ass us against the world All Star game. Oh, that's going to go over well. So he. That's been his campaign to be. To make this game global. Where and but then again so is the NFL. How many games do we need to see from Germany? Is that because how many games we need seeing in England? Is that really fire you up Adam to watch the Patriots and Colts in England?

A (23:38)

Not even a little bit.

B (23:39)

Yes.

A (23:41)

Broncos jets. That a 1311 game in Brazil? No, thank you.

B (23:46)

Yeah, I'm sure the European fans were thrilled by that game. Like, you know, give me a break. Like does that really help the league? You know, it's just doing everything you can besides putting the damn team there. It's too far to put a team. So hey, we'll bring Jack and then Jacksonville. Oh we'll go over there every year five times. Like Jacksonville plays their half their home schedule is in Wembley Stadium. Like what are we doing? But that's the international aspect of the league. I mean to me being an old schooler, I hated when they did it made you guys feel differently that they. When they wore the individual uniforms for the All Star game in basketball when they. When Kobe had his leg. I hated that I wanted West All Star. That's what the. Damn it. You're a West all star. And they. Why did the league do that? Because of the international fans didn't recognize Kobe. Like, like you. You see, you know he looks like right. He's just got a different. Oh no. They want the fan. The Chinese fans want to see Kobe in his Laker uniform. They want to see Duncan and Spurs uniform. I hated that. I couldn't stand. That's. That was the worst. Now they've gone back. So you know, I think that this like fascination and Consumption with like making the game international is affected the American fans and sometimes to a detriment.

A (25:08)

Yeah, I'm just pretty much old man shaking fist at cloud for the last 25 minutes. That's okay. We'll talk about the Celtics.

B (25:13)

We're going to do that right when.

A (25:14)

We come on back here after a word from our friends at Prize Picks. This episode is brought to you by Prize Picks. It's the holiday season. Best time of the year for sports. Bowl games, basketball matchups, playoff pushes. It's all happening at once. Football. I mean, there's a lot of football. While you and I are out here making decisions every day. What gifts to buy, what to eat, which game to watch. All of these really tough holiday calls is one place, if just the one where it feels good to be right. Prize picks.

C (25:45)

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A (27:11)

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C (27:13)

Yeah, right. Jamar Chase is the next part of the Play. More than 86 and a half receiving yards versus the Dolphins. No T. Higgins, I believe in this game a lot of Jamar Chase targets We're going to roll with that. And then finally, Michael Carter running back for the Cardinals More than 44 and a half rushing yards Falcons Falcons defense used to be good. According to dvoa, they were number one at one point. They've dropped considerably more towards middle of the pack. Michael Carter is, I would say the only running back basically left for the Cardinals at this point. Plus there's this little bit I will tell you that I'm going against Michael Carter in in one of my fantasy leagues. Call this an emotional hedge, folks. We'll get used to that. That so we're going Darren Waller more than a half a touchdown Jamar chase more than 86 and a half receiving yards Michael Carter more than 44 and a half rushing yards Flex play cough. I've hit three out of three. It's 4.25x. A little extra juice on this one. And if I had two out of three, 1.25x so I do make a little bit of money on top of this one. If I only get two out of three, which is the best. And prize picks now has early payouts. So if your lineup gets off to a hot start, Kaufman, you might have an option to cash out the winnings before the game is even over.

A (28:30)

Well, getting that money couldn't be any easier. Once you do in less than 15 minutes, you watch the money roll into your account. Prizepix even uses Venmo Truly, it's as easy as it gets. So download the app today. Use code CLNS get $50 in lineups after playing your first for only $5. Again, download the the Prize Picks app. Do it today. Do it now while you're listening to this show. The promo code CLNS. You get 50 bucks in lineups after playing your first for only $5. Prize picks. It's good to be right. All right, back here, Evan, Adam, of course, Gary Washburn with us from the Boston Globe, part of the CLNS media family as well. If you have fast forwarded beyond our break past all of that conversation about the NBA cup and where the game stands globally and Adam Silver's influence and all that stuff. Yes, as promised, actual Celtics talk. And Gary, part of the reason that I'm thrilled you're here is this team is sitting really kind of right where I thought they would be coming into the year. Not record wise, but seeding wise. I had them top four seed in the east and right now they are at the moment 4th tied with the Magic, who sit based on the tiebreaker behind them. But each team is 15:11, half game back at the Toronto Raptors in third. I don't think Toronto's particularly good team. I'm not convinced any of these teams in the east are particularly good teams. And that's why I go back to you because you, when you joined us over the summer, there was a lot of discourse at the time as to Boston's off season moves, whether or not this was going to be a team that should be tanking and actively pursuing, you know, Debonsa or you know, Boozer or you know, you name it, versus a team that could theoretically stay afloat, make a run, maybe justifiably make a move, get Jason Tatum back hopefully at some point this year and actually somehow avoid the whole gap year, quote unquote, and get back and represent the East. And you know, there we had ranging opinions across the board from every guest and you came on and said, have you guys looked at the east like please tell me why this Celtics roster, even without Al, Luke, Kristaps, Drew, Jason, tell me why this team can't hang around and be a playoff team. A top six team, a top four team like who is, is dramatically better than this group. And sure enough, Boston is, you know, had a five game win streak, dropped its last two. Both are winnable games. There's a version of this where this team has won seven in a row at the moment and they've beaten everybody around them. They beat the Pistons once, they played them close the other two times. They've beaten the Knicks, they've beaten the Raptors, they've beaten the Magic, the Cavs who right now are toiling in the play in vicinity. They beat them. That was supposed to be the class of the Eastern Conference. So you know, what do you make of what you've seen so far as we're ballpark a third of the way through the year?

B (31:40)

Yeah, I mean I think that the Celtics are have a chance to be competitive. They have a chance to me to get a top four seed in the East. Now the question is, are the teams behind them that were picked like, you know, Orlando is without Wagner. When are they going to get him back? Are they going to take off after that? Cleveland has Mobley out for a month and they've been completely underachieving the entire year. There's some issues in Cleveland. The Knicks are playing well along with the Pistons, but you know, Toronto, can you really rely on them to really be a 50 win team? Atlanta has been a kind of a disappointment. Now they've been, you know, Trey is coming back after Being out a month. Chris Staps out another, at least another two weeks. He's. Chris Staps is playing 13 games for them, I think of their 27. He's already missed 14 games. Like this is kind of what you expected. And, and I don't know if this illness has ever. He's ever quite gotten over the illness that, you know, really impacted and hampered his. His final year in Boston. So there's opportunity. Is there now? Do they need to upgrade the roster by the trade deadline if they're going to make a run? I think of course they do. I don't know how much of the future you sacrifice to do that, but I do think this team, they're 15 and 11 and they have home losses to Brooklyn and Utah. Like, they could be 17:9, very easily be 17:9 in the game. I mean, and they've lost some close games. You know, they could be near 20 wins if they had any luck and they had some execution down the stretch and they played better against some bad teams. So they have a chance here. Now, the que. They're not championship level. And if you're a Boston fan, do you want this team to have, you know, the 20th pick in this draft and kind of make the playoffs and go at it and maybe lose to Detroit in six games or lose to New York or. You know what I'm saying? Would that be an enjoyable season with Jason, let's say take out Jason coming back. Let's say Jason misses the season. Okay. Or, you know, is that enjoyable or that. Will that be kind of a. Kind of wet your appetite for 26, 27 when they'll make some more moves and they'll really ramp it up and Jason comes back fully 100% Jalen. And then all of a sudden you can now you're back to championship level and you probably make some tweaks here and there. I all think. I think it all depends on the kind of the expectation of Brad Stevens and what he's willing to give up for the future. Because as I said to someone today, like, the Celtics need a big teams are not going to say, hey, you know, just give us an expiring contract. We don't want to pick. We don't want to sacrifice your future. Boston, we'll make sure that, you know, you can get a player that you need now and want to sacrifice any assets for the future. No, like, they're going to want one of your future pieces. They're going to want a first rounder. Are you willing to give that up? Like, that's what Brad has decided. Like, how much do I toy with the future to make a team now better, but not championship level? Or is it all just chase the title? If not, just throw it by the wayside and. And just, you know, run this running, you know, like, run it out and, you know, just play it out. And. And if they lose, they lose. Like, what do you like? Because the east, you know, I think Detroit, Boston would be a very good playoff series. They've played three close games, three very competitive games. And that's your number one team, right? And that's the team that's at this point, completely healthy. So there's a lot of questions, you know, but I. I think, as I said, the east was not good. The east is not good. There's a lot of teams just muddling. You know, Milwaukee's falling off a cliff. They, you know, after they beat the Celtics and talked all the mess and the trash talk, they lost by 32 at Brooklyn. I mean, that's embarrassing. I thought. I thought Doc might lose his job. I mean, I was like, man, I'm feeling Doc might get fired after that one because they just. They gave up. Like, I turned the game on in the third quarter, and they were literally down, like, 74 to 46 or so. It was like, wow. So there's a lot of problems in the east, and the Celtics don't have a lot of those problems, too.

A (36:16)

One of the tricky things is that Brad Stevenson company, you know, Mike Zarin, all these guys involved, they're gonna have to make that decision, decision about whether or not to add a big. Or whatever it is, really, before, in all likelihood, before Jason Tatum comes back. So they're going to have to feel out, you know, not only what assets are we willing to part with to improve this year's team to see how good we are, but to determine, okay, what's our ceiling if Tatum is coming back and what does he look like? And they're getting all the behind the scenes of, you know, medical evaluators and seeing him behind closed doors and have a much better idea of how close to a return we have versus, you know, just seeing social media videos and whatnot. But timeline's not exactly on Boston's side in terms of the order of operations here.

B (37:03)

No, it's. I think you have to expect. I'm sorry. I mean, I think you have to expect that Jason's not going to come back. I'm not saying he's not. Don't. Don't quote me on. Oh, he's out. But I think the Celtics are fully preparing that Jason, like, they're not going to put any type of pressure on Jason to come back, although Jason might put pressure on himself. They. I think you treat this team as is right now, not with Jason Tatum.

C (37:29)

Yeah, Brad spoke about that Wednesday afternoon with the media about, you know, how, you know, we want to make sure Jason's 110% and he's got to hit all these strength thresholds first. Then he's got to play, you know, 1, 1, 3 on 3, 4 and 4, 5 and 5. All that is going to be sc scripted and then we're going to do, you know, different variations of. Of encore play at random. Like there's. I think we all are getting caught up in this. The snippets that we see on social media and the stuff that gets posted from practice, we get caught up in that when we don't even realize where in the process they really are as a unit, as a team. Like you see Jason Tatum dunking off two feet and you're like, holy cow, he'll be back by December. He'll be back by January. When we don't know the protocols in place that they all, you know, jointly have agreed to to make sure that Jason Tatum comes back as. As best as he possibly can have the best version of himself when he comes back. And you know, I have always trended on the, you know, they shouldn't hold. They should hold them out. And then once you started seeing some stuff, you see the way this team goes, it's like maybe I should rethink my. How they should do this. And Tatum, you know, is going to want to come back. So at this point I've gone on either side of the spectrum. Kaufman. I've been hold them out, I've been bringing back. At this point, I think it's just the eggs are going to fall or they fall. There's nothing I can really do about it. But to go back to the big conversation, Gary, do you think there's a guy out there that sort of satisfies a few of their needs of impacts them this year can be a contributor on a team further down the road. Works well with Jason Tatum. Like the. We've talked about a couple different guys on this show and is attainable of the world, the Nick. The Nick Claxtons of the world. Is there a guy out there that you think is like the. There's nobody perfect but an ideal sort of contract fit scheme sort of person that maybe we're not Thinking of, in terms of a guy that they should be looking at to bring into the roster because to be fair, most of the things that Brad and that front office has done so far has worked. I think this year is like the best picture of it, where Minot's giving them great minutes, Ugo comes in, gives them great minutes, Walsh turned into an indispensable player for them. Shireman has, has definitely grown. Like a lot of the, the dart throws they've thrown have hit certain targets.

B (39:56)

Yeah, there isn't a guy that. I'm just saying to myself, like, man, they, they've got to get this guy in. You know, to me, you, you probably have to go on the cheap, right? I'm not. We also have the trade. The, the trade exceptions. I think 22 million from Chris Staps and I think 4 million from the Drew. From the Drew deal. I tend, I tend to. There's nobody that I just like, yeah, they should get that guy. And I'm looking at the, the list like, I'm looking at like, you know, impending, impending free agents. And you look at Brooklyn like, would you, would you want to bring in a guy like Cam Thomas, like, who can score but can't do anything else and is not a good locker room guy? Apparently his body's getting his buckets. Cam Thomas is probably going to be available. Zaire Williams, a guy who can hit threes. Like, there's a bunch of guys here that could probably, you know, help.

A (41:10)

But, but the emphasis is on a big. Isn't it?

B (41:13)

Yeah, I'm just talking about like scoring. I think they need some points off the bench, personally.

A (41:20)

But that's more of a concern to you than.

B (41:22)

Yes.

A (41:23)

Size.

B (41:24)

Yes. I think your defense is fine. I think, I think they need point. Like, I think the reason they lost to Detroit was they got outscored 47 to 14 off the bench because the Pistons came out with Caris Lavert, Jade Navy and Javante Green and all those dudes can score. Not Green, not as much. But we've seen Lavert. I saw him had a 52 point game in the Garden for Brooklyn and then Ivy's a former lottery pick who can score. Like, you got dudes who come off the bench. Joe does not have anybody besides Simons who can really drop buckets. My not.

A (42:00)

Well, he's not even doing that consistently, which I, I don't know if, if that to you is just a byproduct of. It's hard.

B (42:06)

I think he doesn't get. I don't think he play I don't think he plays enough and I don't think it's enough shots to be honest with you. I think he's averaging 13 points a game. He's shooting 38 from three. I don't think you can blame Simons, I think he's played pretty well. But I also think Joe is not playing him as much as he should. And then you're looking at Ugo. You're not depending on who goes score, you're not depending on Jordan to score. Even though Jordan is shown Jordan's average is 7.7 points a game. And now if anybody would have said before the season Jordan Walsh would average eight points a game, we'd have been like the hell out of here. And, and he's averaging 7.7 points a game Minot. Same thing. He's, he's, he's, he can hit the three. You know, he's shooting 40 something percent from three which is kind of crazy because I don't think he was considered a three point shooter when he was in Minnesota. But they need a bucket getter. But Biggs, Claxton. Yeah, like, you know, do you want, you know, do you. He's, he's a guy who's available. I mean to me there just isn't that, you know, there's guys I'm sure Brad is looking at. I don't have anybody that's like yeah, that guy would be perfect. I think everybody's going to be flawed, you know, or expensive, you know. And who do you trade for such. Who do you guys think they should trade? Is it Hauser? Do you trade Simons and his 27 million? Like I don't think you trade Simons need his buckets. So you trade Hower. Like who do you trade for such a, for a big.

C (43:40)

Yeah, Hower. Seems it been to me that because Payne Pritchard has basically taken a step to the point where he's a way more reliable player offensively night to night. Sam, and I love Sam, like I've always said, Sam has basically been a Kyle Korver esque shooter since he got in the end. He's 42 from 3 every year he's gotten on the floor. It's been weird this year for him and maybe, I don't know, maybe it's mental, I don't know. But he's just not holding down his end of the floor in terms like we expect you to space the floor, hit threes, attack closeouts and hold up the best he can defensively. And he does do a Better job of that in the $10 million contract that he's currently under is an extremely tradable asset for a team that's desperate for shooting. So like, we all have been trying to trade Simons because it just seems, oh, it's 27 million, it's expiring. I just gotta attach a pick or two. It's fine. I don't think it's gonna be that easy because if it were, he wouldn't be on the team right now. He'd be gone. If it were that easy, he wouldn't be on this team during the entire season. I feel like Hauser is the odd man out because Pritchard, you can't, you can't survive without that guy. You know, part of me wants bench scoring sucks because your sixth man is now starting your starting point guard and you're missing your 28 point per game score. So that's why your offense isn't as good. But you're dealt the cards that you have, so.

B (45:06)

But also Hower. Hower isn't hitting shots either. And that damages the bench because you need. Like, I remember that Minnesota game. Sorry to cut you off. But that Minnesota game late last month, right after Thanksgiving, and he had two wide open threes in the fourth quarter, that trot. And he misses them both. Like he's just not been reliable and there's no reason to have him on the floor. You're not having on the floor for defense or rebounding. So Sam's got to hit shots. That's his thing. You're a. He's a bucket getter, you know, and, and in terms of the three and he's not getting to the free throw lines. I wrote like he has four free throw attempts this season. Like he's never got to the free throw line. So his contribution is I knock down threes. Like, what's the kid from Milwaukee, A.J. green. Like, you need him to be that type of weapon and he's not. But I looked at, I've looked at some big skies, like reasonable available bigs. Marvin Bagley, Yusuf Nurkic, you know, Drew Eubanks. I'm looking up here our, our old friend Robert Williams, a guy like Nick Richards from Phoenix, like, you know, we're looking at, at bigs. Those are the kind of guys you might have to scour and get. I don't think. You know, do I think Marvin Bagley could help this team as a backup? Yeah, I do, because I think he's active now. He's not great. And he got, unfortunately for him, he got chosen ahead of Luca and Trey Young, and that will always be on his resume. But to me, I think he's somebody, you know, that you. That you call Washington and you just give him little to nothing because Washington's trying to. He's not coming back anyway. That's somebody you could. To me, I think you could probably get because I don't know what. I guess Luca Garza ain't it. I guess Joe has decided that Garza and I don't know what you thought of Garza's play in the first 20 games since he. When he was actually playing. Yeah, I think he was. He fouled. Fouled too much.

A (47:24)

Moments.

B (47:25)

Yeah.

C (47:25)

Here he's got more practice shots than anybody in the NBA. You know, that's got to count for something.

A (47:31)

But I mean, he's. He's. Joe is whittled out. Whether it's Garza, whether it's Boucher, whether it's Tillman, like basically any big. Who's not Keda Joe.

B (47:39)

Yeah.

A (47:40)

Satisfied with. And you know, Amari Williams will see. He basically just got here. But, you know, it's another one totally.

B (47:47)

Like, I don't know what Boucher did, but he did something real early to get out of the. I mean, he barely played. Yeah, I don't know what he's done. I thought he could knock down some threes and give them some energy, but he is completely out of the rotation. You know, to be fair, though, like.

C (48:07)

Is Joe wrong for any of this stuff? They're. They're playing, I would say, above their playing weight right now. And they actually play better. Whether it's just Kada or no bigs at all on the floor, they actually kind of play better. They. They seem like a much more cohesive unit. So I can't really give Joe flack because.

A (48:27)

I would like to see the NBA.

B (48:29)

I would like to see what Boucher could do with 15 minutes a game. Like, if he's just getting ran up and down the floor. Like, I'd like to see him. If he can give that bench some. Some offensive lift, I would like to see that. You know, as opposed to, like, man, we. You can't even help us, so we don't even try it. Like, at that point, I just think it's unfortunate. And the same with Garza. I thought Garza was. I said I thought Garza foul too much. And that was. You know, he and this team fouls a lot. They foul way too much. Was that the reason why you just completely, you know, tell him to say you can't play. I don't know. I thought he, I thought he served a use. He was a big body. He could get some rebounds. He got some put backs. I thought he did okay. But if you really think, like I said, the guys I would go after, because you're not trying to sacrifice your future. You're not trying to get some like, class that makes how much? 21 million. And like, are you really trying to, like, I think, I don't think they want to pat at any payroll for 26, 27. Like, I think, like, to me, I'm calling Washington and I'm getting Bagley because that dude can run the floor. He's played in a bunch of systems. He's a professional, right? He's not great. He is who he is. But you're looking for a backup and I'm sure Washington will take some second round and I'm not going to. You know what I'm saying? I think that Washington is looking to dump money. So to me, that's a guy or Nurkic. Nurkin's a big, you know, big lumbering guy, but he can rebound and he can shoot. Those are the guys you might need. To me, I said, I think they need buckets. I think they need somebody who doesn't care about defense to come in there and get them. They can get them 15 points in 15 minutes and just keep them in games with Jalen. Because if you look at the Detroit game, and I think they could take a lot of lessons from this, they win if Peyton is Peyton. Peyton scored 10 points in the first quarter, two in the final three. Right. If Peyton is Peyton, they win that game. And then if Jalen hits three to four more free throws, right? But they need to have Peyton, Jalen and Derek play really well for them to win. To me, or unless Jordan comes up and scores 20, like, sure. You can't rely so much on those three guys because you're starting Jordan for his defense in Keda K to get you 13, 14 points on a good night. But he's, he's a guy who's going to give you 11 and nine. That's it. That's good. You know, he's not, he's not a scorer. So you're starting two defenders and rebounders. Three scores and then you have one score off the bench because Hauser's not giving them what. What they thought he would. So to me, I think they need a bucky getter. They need a dude who, who might be. And I'm not saying camp. I think Cam Thomas is funny, but that dude can score. You need a dude who does something really well now, does he respond to a new environment? He's played all these years in Brooklyn. Like, would you be fired up about playing him? Would you? I'm sorry. If I'm in Brooklyn, I'd be about my numbers, too. Like, get me. I'm trying to get me a free agent deal. Like, I.

A (51:41)

Like, y' all ain't trying to bet on himself. He took. He took the one cheap contract. I mean, he was very open about what he wanted.

B (51:47)

Yes. Y' all ain't trying to win. I ain't trying to win. I'm trying to put my numbers up and get me a deal. So to me, that's a guy that I think you could probably call Brooklyn. You make 6 million, that's very feasible. You know, like. Like, to me, I think that's. It sounds funny, but, you know, you put them in a system, but obviously I think that you don't want that kind of adage. Like, it's about my buckets, how much I score tonight. Like, you don't want that, but you want somebody who fits into your system and your culture. We all know how much of a culture guy Brad is, so I don't think that would work, but I think it's kind of funny. I think it's. I think it's intriguing, you know, because that dude scores and you need somebody who's more about putting the ball in the hole, because I think offense is going to be this team's issue all year. The defense, I think is fine.

A (52:40)

So this next thing here, and this. This will be the final thing for me anyway. We could do a whole show on this. Maybe next week. We will, but I want to at least introduce it because we've been talking about a little bit on our group thread, and I'm curious as to, you know, Gary's opinion, his observations of this team, how this team has been constructed, and where it's going next. Obviously, this group. Where. Well, I don't think he's going to win it. Joe Missoula is in the coach of the year conversation. I think he's been coaching his ass off this year, especially with an inferior team to what he's had the last two years in terms of top end talent. You know, he's coaching up the young guys, you know, Walsh, Minot, Ugo, hopefully. You know, some of these guys, they. They look like bonafide rotational pace pieces on. On what hopes to be the next great wave of contending Celtics Teams, obviously, once Tatum comes back, third offensive rating in all of basketball, at least as of a couple of days ago, maybe that's changed. Sixth in net rating. I think they're as ev alluded to before, playing above their heads a little bit. But by the same token, do you think Brad Stevens is getting enough credit? Brad, Mike, the whole basketball brass, are they getting enough credit for the off season moves they made more so you know less about Al, Luke, they tried to retain those guys. They got priced out. So it's more about the salary dump of Porzingis, obviously offloading Drew's contract. Do they. Does basketball ops get enough credit for making those moves? Not just to get under the second apron, maybe the first apron, avoid all these penalties financially, but for basketball reasons and the product on the floor. Because I think one could make the case that this group is actually playing better than if you ran the whole thing back from last year, minus Tatum.

B (54:38)

Yeah, I think that's a. I think they deserve a lot of credit. Rad. And the guys deserve a lot of credit. Credit Joe for coaching these guys up, Brad for scouring the benches. And that's what I'm saying. Like people say, come up with names like Brad's thinking of somebody we probably have never heard of or is at the end of somebody's bench right now. There's like, if, if I had asked you guys who Josh Minot is, you guys would have been, you know, a year ago, you guys would have been like, yeah, no, like, what team is he on, who he played for? Like the same thing. Luca Garza, like, you know, and then the development of Jordan Walsh, I think has been the, probably the biggest surprise, the biggest development of this year, especially after he got off to a very slow start and it looked like, yeah, he's going to be probably in Europe next year or something. He just didn't work. But I think, yeah, they deserve a lot of credit for putting a competitive team on the floor and getting a bunch of young, hungry guys in here with, you know, and then even Simons, the Simons deal, you, you get a 26 year old guy who can put the ball in the bucket for Drew Holiday, you know what I'm saying? I mean, I think they got value for. They didn't get just another bad old contract return. And then, you know, they got the trade exception for Porzingis. As I've said, Porzingis has played in 13 games this year. He's already, you know, he's going to not re. He's probably going to maybe get the 50, if they're lucky in Atlanta. Like, this is kind of who he is. And I think the Celtics finally figured this out. Like, we can retain him, but we're going to have these problems. Throughout his tenure. This is who he is. He's got us a champion, helped get us a championship. He's done well here. We appreciate you, but. Bye. See you later, Chris. Staff. So I think the basketball aspect of it has been, I think, a plus. I mean, in terms of. I mean, of course, could Chris Boucher and Luca Garza be playing more minutes or be contributing more? Yeah, but you filled your bench with guys that people really hadn't heard of, you know, and in the development of Walsh, and I said, in my not playing well, Jalen's taking the next step. Like, I think they've done everything. I think. I think Celtic fans, if you told them they'd have been 15 and 11 at this point, they would have been giddy. I think I said 45 wins, and they're probably on pace for that. Right? Could they.

A (57:00)

Yeah. Even a little better.

B (57:01)

Yeah. Could they get to 50, maybe? And their schedule gets a little softer after these two games against Miami and Toronto, they can start piling some wins together. I don't look at a team besides Oklahoma City. I don't look at a team on the schedule and go, yeah, they. They're going to smash. The stuff's like a grape tonight. Like, I don't, like the Celtics have a chance to win every game. Like, not. They're not going to win every game, but I think they have a chance to win every game. Last year, it was a great chance to win every game. This year, pretty good chance here and there, you know, mostly. Right. Except when you play the Knicks and some of the elite teams on the road, especially on the road, it's going to be tough, but I think that the. The front office deserves great credit for keeping this thing afloat. Now, when you look at the 26 draft, and I don't know if you guys have watched some of these college games and the Boozers and the Petersons and dj, like, all these guys, you're like, damn. That was. They were. They didn't look nice and green, but there was no way you were going to be able to tank with as much talent was on this team. You got Jalen and you got Derek and you got Pritchard. You're not tanking with that team. This is not the Brooklyn Nets. This is not the Washington Wizards. You're not throwing out there. You know, Bub Carrington, Anthony Gill, Cam Whitmore. No, nothing against those guys. But like, you're not throwing out a tank team. This is not the 2017Philadelphia 76ers. Like you're telling you got all star talent on this team and all defense.

C (58:32)

Guy and a six man walking through that door. You're telling me.

B (58:36)

Yeah, Sonny Rhodes is not walking through the. Exactly. Henry Sims is not walking through that door. You know, there's a lot of guys we can, we can point out from that team. So, you know, to me, I think the front office is, deserves a lot of credit for keeping this team entertaining. They still selling out. The fans are still intrigued. They're still hard on the team when they lose. Like, they're not like, oh, go out there guys and just do the best you can and, and hang in there and we'll just wait till next year. Like, this is Boston. You can't do that. You can't do that unless you are making a concerted effort to tank and they're not. So to me, I think the fans would love to see some of those great college freshmen in green, but, you know, and no one moving those picks. So you're not going to trade up. But I think on the other hand, I think they like to see a competitive team that's fun to watch every night. And the Celtics are fun to watch.

C (59:38)

Yeah, they've, they've done a remarkable job getting guys that fit their, their mindset, their culture. Like Minot fits, Ugo fits. You know, I know he's only 19, but he fits. Walsh certainly fits. You know, Shireman fits. These guys all fit. So it's, it's, it's a. Kudos. I did this last week with, with Jack Simone. So kudos to this front office for identifying the type of talent they think is coachable and coaching them up and putting them in positions to succeed. I mean, you know, a couple weeks into the season, Coffin, we were talking about maxing out Josh Minot and maxing out Jordan Walsh because these guys are playing way above what their, what their pay grade is. And, you know, got to give credit to the player. You know, he's being put in a position, he's doing the best he can given the situation and the opportunity they're given. We also give credit to, to Missoula and that staff done a great job of getting everybody in the right places at the right time. And again, the, the, the front office for going out and finding these guys. It's been it again. It's just much more enjoyable than I would have expected, you know, Kaufman, you and I were kind of defense a little bit. You know, I think you were like, if they lose this Wizards game, I am out. I'm completely as. Alex Sar was going nuts for, like, 32 points. You were like, I did. That was that.

A (60:54)

That game was my line of demarcation.

C (60:56)

If they lost game with Alexar and I'm done. I'm just done. Boy, looked, the first quarter was little Dicey.

B (61:06)

They allowed 37 in the first quarter. I. You know, guys, I think, too, I think the Celtics are learning from their past miscues. And what I mean by that is the reason that Hauser is here is because they walked away and they gave up Max Truth.

A (61:22)

Yeah.

B (61:22)

So they said, there's no way we're gonna just, like, walk away and dump a pure shooter like that. We're gonna develop him. And they developed Houser, and it worked out. And I think with Minot and Walsh, it's the Aaron Neesmith effect. Like, in Hugo reminds me a lot of Aaron Neesmith playing with his hair on fire. Just. Just run. Run and defend and, like, you know, run into the stands and, you know, get your head. Like, today, he has a scratch in his neck from practice, like. And everyone was like, wow, he's not very good, but he plays hard. And eventually me, Smith turned into a guy that, you know, obviously, they got Brockton in the deal, and it worked out. They went to the. You know, they. They. You know, Brockton won six man of the year, and anyway, flip Brockton for Drew, so it worked out okay. Not saying, like, but you look at me, Smith, and it's like, he just needed time, right? And I just think Jordan has worked out that way. Minot's gonna probably work out that way. And Ugle, you got three wings now that are going to be on that kind of trajectory that perhaps niecemith took. Remember, like, he was just. He was out of control. He's not very good. He's not a shooter. Like, people thought he was out of Vanderbilt, you know, and they kind of gave up on him. But then in Indiana, he became that shooter.

C (62:49)

He's always.

B (62:50)

He's always had a great NBA body. He got even more sculpted, and he got more confident, and he played. Now he's a starter or whatever, and he helped the team to get to the finals. So I think Brad and those guys learned from the Neesmith effect to say, ugo, go out there and run. You know, run into the stands and. And don't break any legs or anything, but just play as hard as you can. Don't. We're not going to expect a lot out of you. Just play hard. Because I think they expected maybe a little too much right away out of Niecemith and then it happened. And Jordan, right before our eyes, it happened. And Minot, he's just going to get nothing but better, especially under Joe's tutelage. So I do think learning from your past kind of miscues and getting guys who, you know, there's a lot of guys that they dumped that did nothing after they left. But I think niece Smith and then Streuss and Streuss is always hurt. But Strus was a guy that the Celtics, I'm sure said, damn, you know, especially when he was able to do in Miami, we could have used that. And so I think Hauser was the guy. They were like, yeah, we're not going to let this guy go. Even though he's not ready. We're going to get him ready.

A (64:01)

Well, I think it's a good place to close. Obvious. We'll be back with you next week in and around the holiday at some point. Not Christmas Day, that much I can promise you. But while all of you out there celebrating your holidays and hopefully getting a nice, well deserved break and rest before the new year begins, we got plenty more Celtic season ahead and happy to say that it's, it looks like it's going to be a fun one compared to maybe what a lot of expectations were coming into this year. But make sure as you always do, check out Gary. He is on Twitter at G. Washburn Globe. He is out there, you know writing obviously so read all the articles. Has one very recently off that Pistons loss about, you know the Celtics need to address that big situation as we've talked about and complimentary scoring and bench scoring and all of that. And of course part of the CLNS family, you can check out the Big three podcast that is available to you weekly here on CLNS as well. We are always available our show their show over on CLNs All Access show on YouTube and download rate review subscribe to your podcast wherever you get your audio versions. But Gary, greatly appreciate the time as always man. Always insightful fun and look forward to the next one.

B (65:15)

Anytime guys. Anytime.

A (65:17)

All right Ev Happy holidays to you sir. We'll talk again soon.

C (65:21)

I got you buddy.

A (65:22)

All right. Happy holidays to the both of these gentlemen and to all of you out there. Once again for Gary, for Evan, I am Adam. This has been Celtics beat. We'll chat again next week. Want a secret to free holiday gifts TikTok slash and free makes it real.

B (65:37)

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