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- [00:02]
Commercial Narrator
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- [00:55]
Bobby Manning
Here's my 32nd story with Guinness.
- [00:57]
Adam Kaufman
As soon as my sister and I.
- [00:58]
Bobby Manning
Get home for the holidays, we don't even unpack. We head straight to our pub. The bartender already knows our order Guinness and fries. We laugh all night, catch up with.
- [01:08]
Adam Kaufman
Old friends, and walk home with faces sore from smiling. It's one of my favorite nights of the year. That was my 32nd story with Guinness.
- [01:15]
Evan Valenti
Guinness Drafts Stout. Please enjoy responsibly.
- [01:18]
Adam Kaufman
Imported by Diageo Beer Co. USA. New York, NY today is Saturday, December 27th, and this is Celtics Beat on CLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of the Boston Celtics. I'm Adam Kaufman. Episode 656 features CLNS's very own Bobby Manning.
- [01:39]
Evan Valenti
And I'm Evan Valenti. Today's show is powered by Prize Picks and Omaha Steaks Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of CLS Media. Download the app today, use the promo code CLNS and get $50 in lineups when you play. $5 and visit Omaha steaks.com use the promo code patriots for an extra $35 off.
- [02:10]
Adam Kaufman
Hey everybody. Happy holidays. Welcome in new edition of Celtics Beat. You got a Syracuse Trifecta. I was gonna say the Syracuse Trifecta, but you know that would be unfair to our guy Brian Barrett. You know, he drops on with us from time to time and, and it's, it's all cues all around. We like to have our fun on the pod. Bobby Manning with us has multiple shows including the Garden Report right here on the CLNS Media Network. And Valenti. I'm Adam Kaufman. We hope everybody had a happy Hanukkah, a merry Christmas. You enjoyed Boxing Day. You're underway with Kwanzaa. Whatever it may be, we hope that it is nothing but Fun, but really the most fun it's happened on the hardwood because the Celtics, despite some hiccups, you might say, against the Indiana Pacers, they battled back, they got through against the dregs of the league and they are right now sitting four games into what I termed four games ago, a nine game winning streak. Again, it hasn't been easy, but they're on pace. They're still on the way. Upcoming games, fellas, against just gross. At Portland on Sunday. Tomorrow, as we sit here at Utah, the rematch, the revenge game on Tuesday, New Year's Day at Sacramento at the Clippers one week from today. And then at home against the Bulls before a real team, the Nuggets, come to town led by the MVP Nikola Jokic. Because, yes, he will be again. So again, this should be a nine game winning streak for the Boston Celtics. And that is exactly where I want to begin. Boys, how are we, how we feeling about this team sitting here at 19 and 11, Bobby?
- [03:47]
Bobby Manning
Great. Better than you could have imagined, I think. And I was optimistic going into this year, but they are now on pace to win over 50 games this season, which I think there are a number of questions about whether they can sustain that level of excellence here. But one of the things I think we all took into account this year that has played out is that the east just is not that great. And as we sit here, they're, you know, in that top three echelon right now. And if health maintains and who knows what happens at the deadline and obviously we're on Tatum watch, I don't think there's any reason to not think that they could finish the season there, which I think, again, no one had in mind going into this season. But it's a huge credit to Jalen Joe, who I've talked a ton about and written a ton about at this point, his imprint on this team. And they're a fun group to watch night in and night out. What a pleasant surprise this group has been.
- [04:38]
Adam Kaufman
If I'm gonna push back on the no. 1. Anyone who listens to this. Okay, listen, I, I'm not gonna say I had him at a 50. I'm not gonna say. But I did have him as a top four seed in the East.
- [04:50]
Bobby Manning
Okay.
- [04:50]
Adam Kaufman
Which, you know, those things, I, I didn't delve into a win total. We never gave a win projection prediction, anything like that. But I think those are fairly correlated, especially if the east was going to be as. Even as we all thought it was going to be and as it looks right now. But yes, I mean, there's no doubt, Bobby, that this team is doing things in the way in which they're doing them, the pace at which they're doing them, that a lot of people have to be a little bit surprised here.
- [05:19]
Evan Valenti
Yeah. Like, I'll just point out there are two things that happen repeatedly, I think, on shows during the summer months, and they're tough because you just have to come up with content. First thing was Kaufman. I feel like every show you went through the gambling odds for the Eastern Conference and you're like, milwaukee sixth, Boston's eighth. Like, what is this? So to your credit.
- [05:43]
Adam Kaufman
Yes.
- [05:43]
Evan Valenti
You, you were a little bit ahead of schedule on this again, 50 wins. I don't think anybody was on that. But you were rightfully saying, look, this conference is terrible. There's a chance Boston finishes the top four record. I just want to see it. I want to point out that I routinely on this show during the summertime talked about how Joe Missoula. I needed to see something different and how I, I was adamant that no job is safe in the NBA with Mike Malone getting axed with Thibodeau and Jenkins and everybody that's gotten basically fired over the past five years, that at no point should we feel safe that Joe Missoul is entrenched here in Boston. Until I've seen what I've seen this year, I, I cannot overstate how incredible the job that Joe Missoul is doing this year with the roster that he has. It is a complete reversal of what they've done in certain ways in the past. Like now they're. They're what they've been in the past. One of the. The least foul heavy teams in the league. Now they follow at maybe the highest rate in the league. They're crashing the glass on, on both ends, but especially on the offensive glass. Their steel rates way higher. They're. And they went from literally like dead last and steel right to like middle of the pack. But that's a huge difference.
- [06:59]
Adam Kaufman
Well, giving up defensive rebounds.
- [07:01]
Evan Valenti
Just saying. Well, that's. Again, it's by roster, because they don't have. Sure, in part.
- [07:08]
Adam Kaufman
But strategically it's changed. Like there's, you know, we've talked about the fact that there's there like in terms of points in the pain, there's nothing going on in these games. The Celtics suck in the paint and they are amazing defending the paint. And so just in terms of point production in the paint in these games, you are looking at a league low in the NBA.
- [07:28]
Evan Valenti
Just pointing out that my, my, my, I Guess my plea of like, I need to see something different from Joe Missoul this season, I'm seeing it. And at this point, I know Celtics are usually pretty tight to how long the extension is for guys. Like, Joe's just got like a. A blanket extension for however long he wants to be here. This has been an incredibly enjoyable season. And you just feel like whatever he, whatever buttons he wants to press, he can press. As an example, he's holding guys out of the rotation for a couple of weeks. Right? Okay, no Josh Minot this for. For a while. No Luca Garza for a while. No Ugo Gonzalez for a while. No Jordan Walsh for a while. And every time one of those guys come back, comes back, they're like awesome. Like, Luca Gar is the thing. Now, that might just be because they played the Pacers for two straight games and that's worked out. But Kaufman, you know me, I was, I was like, I was disgusted every time Luca Garza saw minutes on the floor after the first couple of games this year, I'm like, this, he doesn't have it. This isn't working. We got to try something different. This is killing me. I can't watch this anymore. Well, the last couple of games, Bobby, Luca Garza's been absolutely ridiculous. I think we was like plus 26 in the game last night against, or I should say Friday night against the Pacers. He was, I think a team high, like +26 or something like that. I was dead wrong. Missoula just has a way about him this year that every button he seems again, I know they're 19, 11. They went owing three to start the year. Yeah, I got that. But considering the body of work with the group that he has, Missoula's done one of the most impressive jobs of anybody in the NBA this year, bar none. No, no question about it.
- [09:12]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, and he keeps one upping himself. I thought that Knicks win was the most impressive moment of the year for him. The way he managed that game. Ugon Cat, that was awesome. I didn't think this team could beat New York the way it looked in that first matchup, the second game of the year. Then you beat the Pistons, who were leading the East. Another well managed game, Wallace on Cade, all the other things they did that night. And then you get to this week, which has just been exceptional. When you start with the Heat game where they close with small ball and Ugo playing center and Hauser out there and Simons over Pritchard, that was a bold choice. Next night, Toronto, the Garza thing, as you mentioned there, Evan, him coming out of nowhere, replacing Jalen in the rotation, winning a game without Jalen, I didn't think that was impossible play, especially against a team like Toronto on the road on a back to back. That was ultra impressive, especially making that rotation switch with him out, going with a center in his place effectively. And then this last one against Indiana, both games really going with Ugo in the second half on Monday. In this one you're going with Shireman. They're just so on a dime, this coaching staff in terms of what the matchups are. Who's got it rolling each night. They're willing to sit down Jalen, Pritchard and White in that game on Monday when they didn't have it early in the third quarter, even ruffling feathers a little bit. Jalen obviously wasn't thrilled with that decision, but he trusted and it worked. And there's a level of buy in on this team. Joe doesn't like the phrase I asked him about it a couple weeks ago, the level of buy in he has right now and he doesn't see it in that way, but that's how it looks to me. Guys know that they have to sacrifice sometimes. Guys know that's going to come back around. That's what Luca Garza said on Monday after a couple games back in the rotation. He knew he was going to get it back at some point. And these guys are being put in a great position to succeed across the board. And I probably go in terms of credit for the start. They've had Jalen a little bit over Joe, maybe like 25% to 20% something, something that affects just because I think a player deserves more, a little more credit than a coach. But man, I said coming in this year, this is a great opportunity for Joe to make his imprint here. Doesn't have as talented of a roster, isn't going to just be, you know, snubbed in terms of discussion and credit for the success of this team by the talent that he has on the floor. This was going to be because of his coaching in many ways this year if they were going to succeed. And I think that's absolutely been the case and you see it. They've changed so much with the system, the defense they're running, the way they play. Offense is still so distinctive to his, you know, emphasis as a coach. Emphases. It's, it's great to watch and I hope a fan base that's been a little bit hot and cold on Joe at times is appreciating what he's done this year.
- [12:01]
Adam Kaufman
Let's talk for a little bit about Jaylen Brown a few different ways and this is where I want to begin the conversation. He is this month. This is the game log and I'm not going to read everything. I'll just give you the points. 42, 30, 30, 30, 34, 30, 31, 30. You will notice if you're paying attention, I didn't say a number below 30. He is averaging 32 points per game this month. He is leading the NBA in points per game this month. On the season he is at 29.4 points per game. That is sixth in the league. He is averaging six and a half ish rebounds, about five assists, living in the mid range, finding incredible success shooting there. Not a lot of three point volume, only five threes per game attempted. He is shooting about 44% by the way. And those are stats this month. Over the course of the entire year. It is five and a half shooting about 37%. If I'm going to celebrate things that I had right, like the Celtics would be a top four seed, I will readily acknowledge things that I had wrong, which was I, like anyone believe that Jalen Brown was going to be instrumental to this team's success. I thought the points per game were going to be consistent to what they've been. I didn't think we were going to look at a jump that had him averaging around 30 points per game. I thought he was going to be more deferential. I thought maybe the assists could even. Now don't get me wrong. Earlier in his career, if I told you Jaylen Brown was averaging five assists per game, I mean that was euphoric. You never would have believed that you would like, okay, sure, I get a bridge to sell you kind of thing. Jaylen Brown, I would have thought coming into this year off of what he's done in recent years, maybe we're looking at five and a half, six, something like that. Because he's just going to work that hard to get his teammates involved that we're going to see Derrick White averaging more. We're going to see Peyton Pritchard averaging more. We're certainly going to see Anthony Simons averaging more. I didn't think Jalen Brown would become this guy and something that ev floated on our group thread and I think it's a good talking point here. Is Jalen Brown in the mix? Not for mvp. He's not winning that. Anyone who wants to do the MVP conversation, you're just talking yourself into something he's not winning that. That is a couple guy conversation. But is he in the mix for first team all NBA Bobby?
- [14:25]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, absolutely. I think when you're looking at first team, Luca's in trouble with the games played and that's where he's going to benefit is he's played so many games this year, all but two. The durability coming off the surgery in particular has been super impressive. And you know, at times he doesn't look, I know he had the hamstring to begin the year. It doesn't look like he had quite the same burst to begin the season. He had that dunk attempt on Siakam on Monday that, you know, maybe a little bit of a younger version of Jalen throws down. But last year I think put him in a good position to succeed despite maybe not being the most athletic guy on the floor anymore. And he still certainly is up there among those players. But the way he can get to his mid range spots, the overall ball control he's improved at, like there's a lot of different ways even getting to the free throw line this year. That was a real struggle for him early in the season and obviously when they talked about a bunch and he lobbied for more calls, I'm sure that helped after that Cleveland game, I believe that night. But he was like 34th in free throw attempts a night now up to a tie with Jokic for 14th, which is super impressive to turn around like that in about a month. Definitely had that loss on last Monday against Detroit I believe now, where he missed seven of them. So he's had his moments this year where he could be better at times. But when you're looking at players carrying their teams this year and looking so instrumental that it's hard to imagine a win without them, you are talking about Shay, you're talking about Jokic, you're talking about Jalen as well as Jalen Brunson, who's been incredible in New York. Giannis can't see him getting the games played at this point with the injury. There's a handful of guys like Reeves is out of that mix now. Cade's going to be the swing guy, right probably here and Luka's games played because I think Cade has probably been the best player in the east by a hair ahead of Jalen as well as Jalen Brunson. So I'd say he's on like that fifth, sixth line right now atop the league here. We'll see what Steph Curry does down the stretch of the season as well. He's been outstanding as well as Juan Benyama rocketing up the list of probably most impactful players in this league. He's missed a lot of time, too. So it's going to be tight, it's going to be a battle. But the good thing, and I think Jalen's biggest advantage in this is how important he's been to his team's success, which I'm sure it does come into play here, especially if they're a top seed in the east as well as the games played, which it looks like are just going to keep rolling here. And, you know, I think that would be a real factor for him. I don't know, finishing top five in that MVP conversation right now. Because especially me, if I was a voter, I. I do put games played high up my list of things that I would be evaluating. How available are you night in and night out? I think he's fourth in total scoring. I actually do look at the total scoring list because it is a credit of how much you're available. So he's just been ultra impressive this year on the court, but also off, you know, holding guys accountable after that awful Brooklyn loss. Even himself, like lobbying for the calls there. I thought that was important because Joe's not going to do that, so someone has to. And he, I think, has been willing to embrace, you know, getting other guys going. He was a big reason Pritchard scored 42 in that game against Cleveland. Just setting him up over and over and over again. And I'll also throw this out there because it was, it was still, you know, even after all these weeks have passed here, my favorite moment of the season where they start. Oh, and three, they're going to New Orleans. It's a back to back. It seems like they almost certainly had a rest night lined up for him. Again, he was going through that hamstring thing early on and he just seemed to say effort and just played and got them that win that night. It was their first win of the season and obviously they've been on a roll ever since. Just brutal start to that first week of the year. That was important. And I do wonder what would have happened if he sat out that game and they started 0 and 4. Like with. Things have gone in a completely different direction this year. Great season for Jalen and he hasn't made it about himself. He easily could have, but everything he says has been about team and I think they followed in his. In his lead there across the board.
- [18:25]
Adam Kaufman
And I will mention just looking at one of the sports books and they're fairly consistent book to book in terms of the odds do fluctuate, obviously. But if we're using MVP as our guide for, you know, your top for first team, the order is this currently as we sit here on December 27th. Joker, SGA, your runaway favorites in terms of the top of the odds board. And then Luca, Cade, Brunson, Wemby, and then a tie between Jalen Brown and Tyrese Maxey.
- [18:59]
Evan Valenti
Max has been pretty unbelievable this year. I mean, he's had a ridiculous minutes load, but again, Philly just hasn't been that good of a team in terms of what Boston has done. Although again, different body types, what Max can do versus what Jalen can do, like whatever. Yeah, I think you just have to entertain this guy. I never thought we would entertain the discussion of Jalen Brown being a first team all NBA guy, but here we are. I always believed that Jalen was a top 15 guy. I mean, coffin, we had Brandon Anderson on here when he ranked him what, like 37th or whatever of this top 100 players in the league. And we were like, hey man, I know you get like two sentences to blurb about this in your article with Matt Moore. You want to come on and talk about it because, because the Internet's pretty fired up about it. We had him on and he talked about how, you know, he, he rated Jaylen Brown similar to like Klay Thompson during the Golden State, you know, winning a championship basically every year. Era of like, yeah, Steph's the engine, Clay's very important. But like, understand they're two like fundamentally different players. Steph is in a whole different stratosphere. And they had the conversation of Tatum is basically Steph and Jalen is basically Clay, blah, blah, blah. I wonder if we had BA back on where, if you would rank him.
- [20:08]
Adam Kaufman
Maybe that's, that's him calling now.
- [20:10]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, you know, let's. I wonder if we had him back on if he would change the rating or like where he, where he thought Jalen Brown could ultimately at his apex end up. Because I think, I don't think a lot of people saw this version of Jalen Brown coming. Like, I, I believe like, yeah, the second team, all NBA stuff like that was pretty. Yeah, he's, he's top 12 player in the league, especially when it really matters. I, I would. I. Joe Brown's one of the best 12 players league to him to ascend to top five status is pretty remarkable. And you know, you're gonna, we're gonna have to play this whole season out With Luca, plays enough games, Wemby, etc, etc. But for him to be in the mix I think is a testament to how great Jalen is. And I've been saying this for the past couple of weeks. The, the leap that he made wasn't a small one. To be who he is right now, this is a, this is a huge to be, you know, the second guy but like one A on a change of level, like that's one thing. To be the primary guy on a team that's contending for the number one seed in the Eastern Conference, that's a different guy. And for him to go from there to there is the hardest leap to make I think in the game. And he made it essentially over the off season and it's been ridiculous close.
- [21:32]
Adam Kaufman
He's.
- [21:33]
Bobby Manning
And think of the fact, think of the fact that they're maybe the best offense in the league right up there with Denver at least over the last month or so here. And they do do it the hard way. All the mid range shots he takes, I think he was 9 for 13 on twos outside of the paint against Indiana on Friday. Just ridiculous there in the third quarter. Felt like every single one he put up went in. He's maybe the best mid range shooter in the league this season. Right up there with anybody else certainly. And then you just look at the way this offense plays. They don't run super fast. The pace did not increase this year. We thought it might after all the talk in training camp. In fact, it's at the bottom of the league. They're still a pretty slow, methodical team. They don't have post up threats, they don't run a ton of pick and roll regular amount. They don't cut like they don't go to the free throw line ever. You said it earlier Adam, they don't shoot at the basket, at the rim ever. It's all jump shots and they hit him, he hits all his mid Rangers. Pritchard has done a great job this year. Like the three point shooters have come around, the way they play offense and what they've had to do to reach the top of the league. To what you mentioned there, Evan, it's extremely difficult the way they play night in and night out and it does make me question the sustainability of this all a little bit. But it also impresses me how effectively and consistently they're able to do what they do. And Jalen is the head of the snake in that sense.
- [22:56]
Adam Kaufman
Well, to that point, I mean what we're seeing in the mid range because that's where Jalen likes to live and hasn't really had the opportunity in recent years to do it schematically with the way the Joe has run this offense. Obviously when you have both J's among a bevy of other star, fringe, star, past stars, whatever available to you. I mean he's, he's become Kevin Durant. I mean I'm not saying that it's sustainable at all, but at least in the early goings of this season, you know, when we're always reciting like who's the best mid range player, you know, like Kevin Durant, Kevin Durant. Well, Jalen Brown has become that guy this year in the opening months of the season. And just go back to those advanced stats by the way, because no matter how many times I look these things up and read them and they don't change all that much from game to game, it still shocks me equally every time. Boston has the second best offensive rating in the entire NBA. The only team that is in front of the Celtics is the Denver Nuggets. I will remind you the Celtics don't have their best player, haven't all year. Traded off Drew Holiday, Kristaps Porzingis, lost Al Horford, Luke Cornett. They have a rotation of kids or guys off other teams scrapings and they have the second best rating in the NBA, the fourth best net rating in the NBA behind only Oklahoma City, the defending champs, Denver, who just as easily could be the champ this year, and the Houston Rockets with all that size. I mean it is so unbelievably impressive what Joe Missoula is doing with this roster. To circle back to what Evan has said before and what we've talked about on the show ad nauseam. I want to keep going with Jalen Brown, take this in a different direction. Before we do, we're going to take a quick break and let you hear a good word from multiple sponsors of the program.
- [24:48]
Evan Valenti
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- [28:58]
Adam Kaufman
Salivating over here. Honestly, with all the Omaha Steaks talk and looking forward to EVs social media.
- [29:04]
Evan Valenti
Videos as I am trying to get, I am trying to secure some Omaha Steaks to cook. Like I will do a video I'll do.
- [29:12]
Adam Kaufman
Tell me when to come over for the barbecue. Man, I'm in.
- [29:14]
Evan Valenti
I'll even, I might even just come to your house and cook it there. Like, we'll figure this out, both of us involved. That'll be the best way to do it. We'll get Bobby over. Bobby's hanging around.
- [29:22]
Adam Kaufman
Oh yeah, not far away. We'll get Barrett, we'll get all the.
- [29:25]
Evan Valenti
Local guys, get all the Syracuse guys.
- [29:28]
Bobby Manning
Nice glass of wine.
- [29:29]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah, we'll sit there, we'll watch a Q's basketball game and cook up some oma.
- [29:34]
Evan Valenti
I'm gonna be terrific.
- [29:35]
Adam Kaufman
We'll be watching Mellow's kid. It'll be awesome. So hope you're listening. We're in. We're here. We are at your service. All right, let's keep going with Jalen Brown. Now there's something that, that I do want to get to, but Ev, just to keep going with the mid range point. For a moment you were talking, I.
- [29:51]
Evan Valenti
Mean like you made the point like he's basically Kevin Durant from the mid range. This isn't the first time that Jalen Brown has turned into Kevin Durant from the mid range. And if you go back to the championship season, he was one of the best high volume mid range shooters in the league. But he was doing more damage. If you go to, you Know everybody's got their own favorite stats, whatever, blah blah, blah. If you go to NBA's shot tracking, shot distance data, Elon Brown was arguably the best player in the league. From 10 to 14ft, he was 51% from that area. 60 makes and 117 attempts, he's basically doing that. But further away right now from 15 to 19ft, he's 56% 65 for 116, which is just an insane number. The other thing I'll point out from that championship year, he was gonna, he was getting to the rack like pretty, pretty easily. He was finishing through contact a lot. I remember talking about this a ton. Jalen got really good in 23, 24, absorbing body contact at the rim and finishing, if you go back to that season, less than 5ft. He was 306 of 465, which is 66, which is just an insane number for a guy that's not like 7ft tall. He's 69, 70 right now at that same spot. So like we talk about Jalen morphing his game a little bit, but this mid range assassin stuff, he's kind of had it for a bit. I think last year with the injury, his numbers deteriorated a little bit. He wasn't getting into the, into those areas as much. He clearly has his spots like you would watch Paul Pierce play. And Paul Pierce clearly had like three favorite spots inside the arc where like he got there. Doesn't matter what you do right now, Jalen's in that zone of like. And you saw, I, I, I, I was showing a buddy of mine who's a Lakers fan but loves Jaylen Brown, which is a really interesting person. I was showing him the highlights from the Friday night game against Indiana and I'm like, just look at what Jalen Brown does to each one of these Pacers defenders. Just setting them up exactly how he wants to set him up. Gets the right amount of space, gets a great look at the basket, all of them go in. It's, it's just, it's, it's like watching a painter paint. It's like watching a conductor conduct the symphony orchestra, you know, Kaufman reading.
- [32:11]
Adam Kaufman
One.
- [32:12]
Evan Valenti
Of the same, you know, it's just, it's just like, it's just like watch, it's like watching that round. You're watching a master at work and it's, it's beautiful, beautiful stuff. The shot profile is slightly different between now and in the championship year, but, but he's been doing this for a while and it's just again, I think More impressive now, as you alluded to earlier, Kaufman, without Tatum on the floor getting all that attention, it's all Jalen right now. And, and he's just. We're all. It's Jalen's world. We're all living in it currently. Buddy.
- [32:39]
Bobby Manning
Yeah. And they do it every game. That was my question coming into the season. We knew he could do this. It all showed last year, two years ago. But could you be consistent specifically with that attention? And without Tatum and having to be the guy every single night, there's not a night he can't show up. It's not going to work, I guess, unless you're going to Toronto on a back to back. But it feels like on most nights if he's not playing well, they're not going to win. And he's been able to do it pretty much every single game so far. He's had a few conquers. Again, the seven free throw misses against Detroit there were tough. He said, you know, he got benched in that Brooklyn game on the road for the first half and then finished strong. So, you know, I can probably count maybe like three games where he hasn't been great. And other than that he's been out of this world. And yeah, it's, it's that expectation you have of him continuing to take steps each and every year. And I think he's such a mindful player. Like, I think he thinks the game in a great way. And so being able to have those conversations with Joe and discussing how they want to play, how they want to attack certain things, like, I think that's been super productive for him and has probably changed his career to some degree considering where he was that first Joe year as a playmaker, as a ball handler and how he's continued to evolve. I know that was ime's intention when he first got here, was to really improve that side of Tatum and Brown's game. And it is for both of them astonishing how far they've come with it. The decisions they make play in and play out. I mean they're truly top notch point guard, level player playmakers at this point. And you know, you'll still have the couple turnovers here and there. There were a few bad ones in that game on Friday. Just going to be part of his game. It's like that. And the free throw shooting are still the two weaknesses. You know, off ball defense a little bit too. But man, as a scorer, he's right up there with anybody and I am looking at those mid range numbers like he's tied with Shea in efficiency 49.4%. He's ahead of Durant in at 47%. Ran the same class as Devin Booker. He's ahead of Jalen Brunson. I mean these are, these are the best mid range shooters right here. Luca Doncic, he's ahead of the only guys ahead of it. Shay. Yeah, it's Shay and him. That's pretty much it at that class in the, in the NBA.
- [34:50]
Adam Kaufman
I want to ask you guys this so there are as anyone out there watching, listening is well aware. I'm, I'm not gonna be so arrogant as to believe that Celtics beats the only show you listen you. There are plenty of Celtics podcasts and shows out there, national, local, what have you that I'm sure fans of this program are also tuned into, including multiple shows that again, Bobby is involved with. There's a lot of Celtics content you can find. That being said, maybe I'm living under a rock, but a talking point was brought up to me. Someone slid into my DMs earlier today and asked me a question. Wasn't even a show question. It was just a question for me that I'll be honest. Maybe I'm shortsighted. 30 games into the Celtic season, this particular topic had not occurred to me even one time to think about. And maybe it's been discussed elsewhere, but if it has, I just haven't heard it. And I'm curious as to what you guys think. The question is this. Would The Celtics be 19 and 11 as they are right now? Better or worse if they had Jason Tatum and not Jalen Brown?
- [36:02]
Bobby Manning
You want to go first, Evan?
- [36:05]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, I, I mean, I think they'd probably be right where they are. It's, it's not just, it's not just Jalen Brown, by the way. Like, we, we're talking about this because Jalen Brown is having just the most unbelievable season of all time. We haven't talked about how Peyton Pritchard's freaking nails right now, like just been unbelievable.
- [36:22]
Adam Kaufman
Couldn't miss the three yesterday till he started. Check.
- [36:24]
Evan Valenti
That's the other point. You know, we brought this up with, with Washburn last week. You know, we're talking about how to make this team better, how to improve it, blah, blah, blah. And he asked us the question point blank. Well, are you trading Hauser? I said yes, because that's, he's just not giving you anything right now. Well, since then he's done a lot. And he went what, like seven to eight from three.
- [36:43]
Bobby Manning
Seven to seven to start that game.
- [36:44]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:45]
Adam Kaufman
Then he had that awful off Balance Heat Check 1.
- [36:49]
Evan Valenti
No chance of going for it for a second. I would have done the same thing. I mean he's just been, he, he's been a lot better from three point range this month. He's starting to heat back up. I think he's hovering close to 37 now, which is, which is like for some guys, good, but for 38.38.1.38.1. All right, so he's, he's getting back to where he normally is. As I said, I've been saying for a long time, he is, is. He's basically been Kyle Corbin from three point range as soon as he got on the NBA floor. And I say that as a, as a, a way to paint the picture of like how good of a three point shooter Sam Houser really is. If he's going to contribute like that, then, then life is great. Tatum does more stuff than Brown does. He's a much better distributor, playmaker, creator that, that kind of stuff. He's a way better rebound, like a way better rebounder than Jalen. I'm not trying to give Jalen.
- [37:45]
Bobby Manning
That's where I was gonna go. The playmaking, the rebounding, that's where they've been we times and he's exceptional at it. They'd probably be a few games better, I'd say.
- [37:52]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, and he's better, he's better defensively than Brown is.
- [37:55]
Adam Kaufman
Well, it's like play making, the rebounding the defense. And oh, by the way, he can also average 30 points a game, right?
- [38:00]
Bobby Manning
Yeah.
- [38:00]
Evan Valenti
So.
- [38:01]
Bobby Manning
And they've blown a few games late. The Utah game, I think of Nets.
- [38:06]
Adam Kaufman
Games they should have won.
- [38:07]
Bobby Manning
Yeah. So you know, they could be a couple games better. I'm sure they've stolen a couple two, you know, when you think it through and look at them all. But yeah, and listen, I think I've said throughout their careers, Jalen can be every bit of a good player is Tatum on any given night. But I do contend that Tatum's still a little bit ahead of him in terms of the overall game. And it is that rebounding, it's the level he got to as a playmaker last year in the championship year certainly as well. It's shooting, you know, the three point shooting is a big edge there as well. The free throw shooting he's just exceptional at. And defensively, I mean the stuff he was doing right before the injury there, guarding Towns and those other kind of bigger matchups, it's a special thing. And listen, I mean he's what, four or five time first team, all NBA. So, yeah, it's no knock on Jalen that they'd probably be in a little bit of a better place with Tatum in that spot. But, you know, credit to Jalen, who's never had to do it, stepping into it and being so comfortable and acclimating to it so quickly again, I thought there were going to be some ups and downs to getting used to this process for him. And it does say a lot that all these other ancillary players on the roster have succeeded so much playing alongside him. Like, there is some element. And obviously White plays a part in this too. And Pritchard, who's been great playmaking as well, of getting the best out of those guys, putting them in position to succeed. Everybody, you could have wondered whether they'd go one way or another, has probably played better than you would have expected overall to begin this year. Garza, Minot, Walsh, Ugo, Keda. It's pretty amazing how, like, if one or two of those guys popped, you'd be thrilled and pretty much all of them have. It's unbelievable.
- [39:48]
Adam Kaufman
Well, at least halfway through the year anyway, or, you know, a little more than a third of the way through the regular season. Well, let's just continue this, this Jaylen Brown centric episode with this then. And this is such a. A dumb semantic kind of question anyway, but I'll ask it, since we're teetering around this type of thing anyway, which is, you know, I. I think there were questions surrounding Jaylen coming into the year.
- [40:10]
Evan Valenti
Like, if we did, excuse me, the.
- [40:12]
Adam Kaufman
Whole Jaylen versus Jason thing. If Jaylen were out and it was Tatum who was available, there wouldn't have been those questions. Nobody would have had, well, what can Jason Tatum give you? Can Jason Tatum be a number one? You know, there wouldn't have been any of those questions because we all either just knew or believed we knew. Right. And so coming into this year, there was that extra chip on his shoulder, the disrespect that he has vocalized how, I don't know how many times about his draft position and going all the way back to whether he's wanted in Boston Times they've considered trading him and so on and so forth. You know, even when he was out there winning East Finals mvp, NBA Finals mvp, there were still people that were saying, okay, great, great performances. He was awesome. Tatum, still your one, Brown still your two. I think what Brown had in front of him this year to try and achieve, if this type of thing was important to him. And I think knowing him as, as we believe we do in this way and he is becoming much more front facing with the twitch streams and all that, you know, we're getting to know his personality better beyond the media. I think it is important to him, which is, okay, I'm not a two, I'm a one. And so we can now, I think comfortably say at least people who couldn't before comfortably say Tatum's your 1A, Browns your 1B, but you do have two 1 caliber guys versus no, no, no, he's a 1, he's a 2, you need a 3. Blah, blah, blah. Conventional NBA team building. Do you believe, I mean, Bobby, you're closer to Jalen obviously than, than Evan. I are you being at all these games and in the locker room and at charity events, community events, talking to these guys, do you believe that to be true or is this, you know, kind of one of those feather in the caps that he wasn't looking for?
- [42:08]
Bobby Manning
I think it matters to him. You know, deep down he's not going to say it this year and make it a storyline, but I think he's been open about the fact that yes, I've had a sacrifice, I'm capable of leading a team. You know, there's a level I can get to this things I can show that I haven't been able to like. I think in one interview he said, I've been asked to do things other stars haven't been. So I think it's going to set up an interesting conversation coming out of this year. And I think, you know, the best case scenario for everybody involved, I think, is Tatum coming back this year and easing his way in and playing off of Jalen a little bit and having that naturally reset itself, that dynamic between the two. But ultimately I think it's going to come down to them both understanding that their best case setup for them both winning as much as possible is together. And you know, is when we have these discussions and we've done it for years now, it does boil down to the fact that you can just have one of them on the court for the entire game if you have both of them available, which is obviously beneficial and there's things to work out like who's handling in what situations, who's getting the matchups, this and that. Sometimes I do wish, even as great as it's gotten, that dynamic that they played off each other a little bit more directly. But when you think about some of the great stars who have played together all time, this is about as comfortable and strong of a dynamic, as you've seen between two guys. I think there were probably times where it teetered a little bit. I think the frustration in particular for Jalen has just been the constant trade chatter around him and the fact that he is always the guy in those conversations, which you can understand. Even this past off season. Again, the name just floating around everywhere. It never stops with him. I'm crazy to think about now, given what he's done at this point, but I think both of them understand the importance of having the other. And I think Brad, from the moment he took over as president, obviously they've had to listen to certain things and have tough conversations at times. But I think his North Star has always been, as long as you have these two, you can figure out everything else around them. And the fact that you've only had one this year and you've been able to figure out everything else around him probably only reinforces that more that like, all right, we can draft, we can add, we can sign guys, make some savvy additions. And as long as we have these two pieces. And again, think of all the things they could have potentially done there along the line. Kevin Durant, the early trades going back to like draft night with Jalen. Keeping them together has been so crucial. And you look around the league, so many stars are just stuck by themselves and it's all on them. These guys have each other to lean on. I think it's so important. It's going to be ultra important for Tatum because that comeback's not going to be easy whenever it happens. And he is going to have to lean on Jalen a little bit to help get him through it and get back to the level he's capable of.
- [44:57]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, what's funny about this is the way the league has shifted. There's just too many good players in the league. Like, this is the talents everywhere. But to have like the actual, like the franchise defining talent is a whole different story. Like, there's only a collection of guys that really move the needle and Boston's got two of them.
- [45:17]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, the toughest part's done for them. They have a lot to figure out, but it's way easier to figure out the edges of the roster and the bench and everything else we talk about here than those two guys.
- [45:28]
Evan Valenti
You're not searching for a 30 point per game score. You got two of them. It's just, it's worked out. But the, the thing is, Boston has it, I think at the position that's hardest to maybe find this stuff I Mean, Boston has. Has. It's gone so well to the point where, like, I don't. You guys know Snotty. I don't know what Snotty Drippin's real name is. I forget his name.
- [45:48]
Bobby Manning
But James.
- [45:49]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, he tweeted out yesterday, like, when Wiseman got waved by the Pacers, like, should the Celtics take a look? That's how good Boston's been at developing big guys recently. Where you're like, oh, maybe, should they. Should they take a crack at James Wiseman and see if they can figure that out?
- [46:02]
Adam Kaufman
They also.
- [46:03]
Bobby Manning
And what is that about? Like, is that the organization doing a great job? I'm sure they certainly have, but. Or is it just. It's great to play with Brown and Tatum?
- [46:11]
Evan Valenti
Could be that.
- [46:12]
Adam Kaufman
Could be that. I mean, still finding success with San Antonio obviously developed here. So, you know, I. I think there's. There's a.
- [46:21]
Evan Valenti
Both.
- [46:21]
Adam Kaufman
You know, there's a little Carl May column B component to it.
- [46:24]
Evan Valenti
I just want to make this quick because I know, Bobby, we're running out of time here. You have, you know, centers. Boston did really good at developing them over the years. They've had Missoula and Brad. There's a ton of. There's a billion guards in the league. There's a lot of them. They're everywhere. But finding good, elite wing talent, that affects the game two ways and shot creation, all these things that's really hard to find. And Boston has arguably the best wing player in the league this year in Jalen Brown. I wouldn't say he's number one, but I'd say he's. He's definitely on the list.
- [46:54]
Adam Kaufman
I thought you were gonna say Jordan Walsh.
- [46:56]
Evan Valenti
Well, I've been on Tunnel Walsh, but they have a guy waiting in the wings that's better than him. And to have that much power on the wing is really hard to find. And Boston's been able to do that and have that in their back pocket for years. And it's just a huge luxury that they've been able to have it. And it's to. Kudos to everybody, whether it's Danny, whether it's Brad or Zarin or any angel that's been in the front office. They've held on to those two guys as long as possible, and they're reaping the benefits now.
- [47:25]
Adam Kaufman
That's all I'm saying.
- [47:26]
Bobby Manning
You mentioned Walsh, too. That's another credit Jalen deserves this year, is advocating for him to play and start and all the things he's done since then. I mean, that you can just wrap. There's a great narrative with Jalen this year of the things he's done off the court, his productivity on the court too. And then obviously the fact that Tatum's been missing and they've done what they've done is it is too bad that you just have those two all timers at the top of that MVP conversation who just seem unassailable because right behind them it's like Cade, Brunson, Brown, all have really good cases among others at those spots. But as you mentioned, Adam, there's just miles and miles of of ground between the top two and everybody else in that conversation right now.
- [48:06]
Adam Kaufman
Well, before we wrap here because I think we're probably going to ask this of all of our guests ev over the course of the next month and a half, at least until something happens. We know the Celtics need to be make a move. I, I feel as though maybe I'm wrong, but I believe anyway that that Brad Stevens, Mike Zarin, the whole basketball ops, you know, front office there for Boston, their hand has been collectively forced. This team is good enough to contend in the Eastern Conference. It needs to make a move. And so pending obviously the Jason Tatum return. And I know those calendars don't necessarily entirely sync up. For instance, a move is probably going to be meet need to be made before Tatum's return, which I presume will be after the trade deadline. So you're, you're kind of speculating a little bit here that that hey you're getting two maybe massive additions or one minor one massive. The massive being what percentage of Jason Tatum are you getting back when he does return? Because I do believe it is an if not or a when not an if. But in terms of what you would like to see or even specifically who you would like to see added to this roster, what are you looking for?
- [49:16]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, I wouldn't mind another front court piece just because of the depth situation. I'm thrilled Garza reemerge here over the last week because I think the sustainability of Keda and small ball lasting was not great. I think they were giving up 123 points for 100 with that small ball group out there. Mina and others. So great to have someone back. Although Garza has his defensive limitations too. So I think you're gonna take a look at maybe like a four who can play some five or five as well there. Like one thing I do find interesting maybe is like sending out Hauser to Detroit maybe for one of their bigger wings or center. You know, I'm a big Paul Reed fan. I probably wouldn't do that necessarily, but something I've looked at, it's boring. But if they can, and I've said this on our show as well, standing pat would be a win to me because it means you're going to pay a little tax, you're going to stay above that line, you're going to keep this group together and you're going to go for it with them. And honestly, you know, it's that old adage, but it's true. Like Tatum could be that addition in the front court. Like you add him to the mix as a rebounder and a big defender and even if he's not the same player offensively, that's, that's going to give you pretty much everything you're missing right now. Rebounding and post defense and shooting, which they need a little bit of here too. So yeah, I would not make any moves. They're certainly going to have to talk about that tact situation and I think the more successful they are and the more competitive that they've been atop the East. Tatum's return, where that's at in a month or two here, I think you have a pretty good idea where that's going by the start of February. I think those will all be factors in whether they decide to stay over that tax line, especially as far as they are right now. I think they're still 12 over the Simon's conversation. We've had it since the summer. He's like top of the league in, in plus minus over the last month or something here and he's really settled nicely into that six man role defensive improvements they keep raving about there. I I've said going back to the off season as much as we talked about, should they trade him, they need him more than any other team does. Really like as depth, scoring as, you know, a nice piece who can play over one of the guards. If they're not having a great night, then you know, have a conversation the off season like is it best for you and him to stay together long term, maybe at a lower price or for him to go elsewhere. I think you take advantage of his expiring salary at the end of the year, even if it is for just tax relief at that point. It's way better than salary dumping him right now or trading for a worst player who's a rental. If you can find something that helps you long term, great. And that's the sense I do get going into the deadline is this team will do something if it helps them for the long run. But I think it's less likely that you're just going to grab something to help you this year, especially with that Tatum return being so impactful in that same sense. So, you know, I would root for nothing going into the deadline, keep this group together and see what they can do. They really have everything they need except that Tatum piece.
- [52:14]
Adam Kaufman
Pretty big piece. Let's hope they can get that one back. Obviously here toward the. I don't know, people are looking at their calendars, looking at medical backgrounds, looking at, you know, man, this guy did it in this amount of time. A lot of people are thinking about January, next month, me, February, March. That's. That's what's been.
- [52:30]
Bobby Manning
I just, I'll plug this here on clns. I just put out a pod. We have a new Celtics Daily podcast on the beat here going inside, like the reporting I'm doing and talk to all the Achilles guys because they're all in town over the weekend. Drew Smith and Isaiah Jackson, James Wiseman, you know, didn't get Tyrese, didn't expect to, but gave it a shot. And you know, good insight from those guys. I was surprised how quickly they felt like themselves again. Like Drew Smith said, it was just a couple preseason games and he felt comfortable and assured of himself being back on that floor. And it's different for everybody. But you know, I think those guys bounce back so fast. I know the different players, different bodies. But I think that's encouraging right now is just how much the science has evolved. I know. I talked to Duran earlier this year too, and he learned how much the surgery has changed. Like they ripped his wide open to do his procedure. Now it's muscle, much less invasive. So yeah, I'm feeling super confident about that return right now, obviously, given how hard he's pushing for it too. But they'll be careful as they've said.
- [53:29]
Adam Kaufman
Well, make sure you're checking that out. The slew of shows that Bobby is involved with here across the CLNS media network, Garden Report, Celtics Daily and on and on. A host and reporter here and writes obviously for the website. A lot of great features that he will and travel abroad for. So there is no limit to what Bobby is doing here for the network. Make sure if you want to see any of what he has been talking about, any more of this show, other Celtics podcasts, go to the CLNS Celtics All Access page. You will find clips, full shows from Celtics Beat, among other shows that Bobby is involved with and others that are part of the network as well. Again, there are a lot of these Celtics shows, and we are grateful that you spend any amount of time with ours. Rate Review Most importantly, subscribe if you download the podcast, wherever you find your podcast, of course, leave comments in the YouTube section. We'd like to bring those into the show every once in a while as well. Read them.
- [54:21]
Evan Valenti
What's that last A lot of comments in the last show for Gary Washburn.
- [54:25]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah, a lot of people were fired up about that one with Carrie, which was good. That's what we want. So we thank you. Check Bobby out on Twitter, by the way, at real Bob Manning and Bobby Enjoy, man. We'll talk to you again real soon. Ev, thank you as always. I am Adam and hey guys, next time we do this, we're going to be in 2026, which is just kind of nuts. So thanks to all of you for making 2025 memorable. And here's to an even better New Year ahead. And Doug, here we have the Limu.
- [54:58]
Evan Valenti
Emu in its natural habitat, helping people.
- [55:01]
Adam Kaufman
Customize their car insurance and save hundreds.
- [55:03]
Bobby Manning
Of with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating.
- [55:08]
Adam Kaufman
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [55:11]
Bobby Manning
Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [55:14]
Adam Kaufman
Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [55:18]
Bobby Manning
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Adam Kaufman
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Bobby Manning
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