668: Jaylen is a Team Player; Leader w/ Gary Washburn

Summary

Celtics Beat Ep. 668: Jaylen is a Team Player; Leader w/ Gary Washburn

Date: March 22, 2026 | Host: Adam Kaufman (with Evan Valenti) | Guest: Gary Washburn (Boston Globe, Big Three NBA Podcast)

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the state of the Boston Celtics during a pivotal stretch of the NBA regular season, focusing in particular on Jaylen Brown’s team-first mentality and leadership. Adam Kaufman and Evan Valenti are joined by veteran Celtics reporter Gary Washburn, who shares insight from his recent coverage—including interactions with Celtics legend Robert Parish—and thoughtful commentary on team development, roster construction, the evolving Tatum-Brown dynamic, the league-wide awards race, and even the impact of NIL/transfer rules on March Madness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Celtics' Current Success: Culture, Depth, and Leadership

[02:26–04:45]

• The Celtics are riding a four-game winning streak, sitting at 47–23, just behind the Pistons for the #1 seed.
• High expectations inside and outside the building—beyond what anyone imagined pre-season.
• Robert Parish is a big admirer of Joe Mazzulla’s “all-in” culture: any player, anytime, must be ready to contribute.
• “He really, really likes the kind of the culture that's being built, obviously, the Joe Mazzulla culture. Play hard, regardless of if you’re playing 30 minutes or 30 seconds.”
  — Gary Washburn [04:45]

Team Atmosphere & Locker Room Chemistry

[04:45–07:16]

• Parish praises the Celtics for not having any “prima donnas.”
• Strong locker room with players who like each other—the necessary chemistry for a championship.

  “...a lot of guys that like each other, that's the necessary chemistry for the championship. And I think Parish noticed that.”
  — Gary Washburn [07:14]

2. The Celtics’ Bench: From Question Mark to Secret Weapon

[07:16–16:39]

• The depth is a true differentiator: role guys like Hugo Gonzalez, Baylor Scheierman, Jordan Walsh, and Luka Garza have become consistent contributors.
• Initial fears about the weak front court have been “completely flipped.”
• Unexpected players stepping up:
  • Hugo Gonzalez: “No one knew what to expect...ends up basically etching a role as kind of the energy guy and a guy who's starting to hit the corner three.” [09:52]
  • Baylor Scheierman: Surpassed expectations as a rebounder and hustle player.
  • Neemias Queta (“K”): Worked his way from a struggling big to a reliable starter.
  • Ron Harper Jr.: Came into camp in shape, transformed into a legitimate NBA contributor.
  • Luka Garza: Excellent rebounding adds “major value,” forcing him into the Celtics’ regular rotation.

Roster Construction & Future Planning

[16:39–22:27]

• With Tatum and Brown ultimately taking up ~70% of the cap, hitting on cheap depth is non-negotiable.
• “The only way you're going to make that work, obviously, is with depth guys. And right now, I’m just looking at salaries for next year...it looks like all of these guys that I just mentioned, that you outlined, can play.”
  — Adam Kaufman [18:24]
• Celtics are well-positioned to “run it back” with minor tweaks: smart management, cheap role players, and key extensions (e.g., Derrick White, Payton Pritchard’s contract praised as a bargain).
• Development pipeline is now a true asset: “You’ve got to have guys in your organization who don’t make a lot of money, who play above their contracts.”
  — Gary Washburn [22:27]

3. Development System: How Boston Found Its Edge

[25:01–32:17]

• Patience and a clear system separate the Celtics from other franchises.
• Past failures (James Young, RJ Hunter) led to a more refined developmental approach; Sam Hauser as a “Max Strus walked so Hauser could run” type of story.
• “The Celtics have just shown patience. I think Brad [Stevens] has a culture that he likes and I think that they’ve learned from some of their past mistakes.”
  — Gary Washburn [26:02]
• Today: homegrown, multi-year projects like Queta and Hauser pay dividends. Even late picks (Grant Williams, Romeo Langford trade, etc.) are examples of learning from prior mistakes.

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4. The "Jays" Dynamic: Jaylen Brown’s Leadership, Team Play, and Media Narratives

[35:11–48:42]

• With Tatum only just back from injury, Brown’s MVP-level play has fueled media/fan debates over whose team it is.
• Gary on the “who’s team is it?” framing: “A lot of that conversation is stupid.”
  — Adam Kaufman [35:11]
• “Jalen does not have to do that. ... He could just be like, okay, dude, you’re not where you’re at, I am where I’m at. I am the a guy on this team right now. I’m going to score all the points. I’m gonna take over. He’s not doing that.”
  — Gary Washburn [39:28]
• Jaylen goes out of his way to help Tatum reintegrate, including playmaking and support on the floor.
• Media narratives inflating minor statements—Gary criticizes “pundits who don’t go to games” and “psychoanalysis from afar” as a distortion:

  “You get people who don’t go to games, who’ve never talked, had a conversation with either of these guys giving their Jason/Jaylen...synopsis of their damn relationship.” — Gary Washburn [45:23]

• Brown is showing leadership, adjusting to the “alpha–beta” dynamic, and still pushing for both personal and team success.

  “He has been a complete leader. So I’m not sure what people expect out of Jalen...of course he enjoys the respect, the recognition, but he’s been all-in.” [45:45]

On Athlete Honesty and the Social Media Culture

[48:44–52:01]

• The episode explores how fans/media simultaneously demand athlete authenticity and then criticize it.
• “We want guys to be authentic, but we want them to be authentic in our way.”
  — Evan Valenti [49:44]
• “As reporters, that’s what you want...but you like the honesty. You like when someone bears their soul. We tend to only like when someone bears their soul when [their career] is over.”
  — Gary Washburn [50:54]

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5. Broader NBA Issues: Awards, the 65-Game Minimum, and “Load Management”

[63:16–71:08]

• All-NBA and MVP voting thrown into flux by new 65-game rule; Cade Cunningham’s absence could cost him awards.
• “I like the 65 game limit...we tend to have short-term history— we did not like guys winning awards playing 50 of the 82 games.”
  — Gary Washburn [64:19]
• Discussion about whether the threshold should be moved, and how other sports compare (e.g., minimum games played for MLB MVPs).
• Ultimately: “People complained about load management, now they complain about the number of games.”
  — Evan Valenti [71:02]

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6. Quick Hitters and Memorable Moments

On Celtics Historical Coverage & Myths

• Hilarious Maxwell/Parish anecdotes about how the media portrayed wins/losses along racial lines in the 1980s.

  “Every time we would lose, it’d be me and Chief walking off the court with our heads down like the brothers failed us again...”
  — [61:08]

On March Madness, NIL, and the Death of Cinderella Stories

[71:17–82:09]

• Kaufman: “It feels like the Cinderella stories of March Madness...are probably a thing of the past.”
• Washburn laments the changing transfer/NIL era—less loyalty, four schools in four years, “old men” playing college ball, saps the magic of mid-major runs.
• “You don’t have the same loyalty and dedication to the players because they bounce around. These guys don’t have a problem going to four schools in four years.”
  — Gary Washburn [73:25]

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Notable Quotes

On Team Depth:

• “If you do one thing really well, you have major value. And if you offensive rebound well, if you get your team extra possessions, you're going to be a valuable player.”
  — Gary Washburn [11:35]

On Jaylen Brown Adjusting to Tatum’s Return:

• “He wants Jason to get going. And I’ve seen them...passing each other the ball. They’re giving each other the...like, ‘got you’...I just don’t see a problem. I just don’t see...I just think Jalen has been a team guy, a leader.”
  — Gary Washburn [43:56]

On Media Narratives:

• “If you want to ask somebody who knows or go to a practice, go to a game, or just give your honest opinion of this is what I see and what I observe, or this is what I think, but to tell the world that this is what’s going on, or everybody’s got an insider, like, no.”
  — Gary Washburn [53:30]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:45] — Robert Parish on Celtics culture
• [09:52] — Underrated bench development (Gonzalez, Scheierman, Queta, Garza)
• [18:24] — Roster sustainability and cap breakdown
• [26:02] — Celtic's unique approach to player development
• [39:06] — The Brown–Tatum dynamic post-injury
• [45:23] — Media criticism of the Jays’ relationship
• [63:16] — The 65-game rule and All-NBA voting
• [71:17] — March Madness, NIL, and the demise of Cinderella

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Conclusion / Takeaways

This episode of Celtics Beat provides a nuanced, insider’s look at the Celtics both on and off the court. Through candid analysis and storytelling, Gary Washburn emphasizes the power of organizational patience and player development, defends Jaylen Brown’s authenticity and leadership, and offers much-needed context on the media’s role in shaping NBA narratives. The conversation is a must-listen for Celtics fans looking to understand the delicate balance required to build a contender around two stars, the formula for NBA development in the new CBA and cap landscape, and the real, sometimes-overlooked meaning of “team” success.

Transcript

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Today is Saturday, March 21st, and this is Celtics beat on CLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of the Boston Celtics. I'm Adam Kaufman. Episode 668 features the Boston Globes, Gary Washburn.

[C]

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[A]

Hey everybody. Welcome in. It's a brand new edition of Selfish Beach. So much to cover over the course of the next however long we typically go. Adam Kaufman, Evan Valenti were always here. Gary Washburn joins us not only from the Boston Globe, part of the CLNS family, of course, one of the hosts of the Big three NBA podcast. Gary, it's good to see you again.

[B]

Oh, really good to be here.

[A]

So much to cover, man. Between obviously, what's going on with the Celtics and The stretch run of the regular season. This Cade Cunningham injury now, or I don't know if you really call a, a lung issue, an injury, but an issue nonetheless there for the Detroit Pistons and what that means not only for the number one seed in the NBA, voting potentially in awards as it comes down the stretch of the regular season, but also come the playoff run and how we would sort of tier those Eastern Conference teams. You have been spending a lot of time lately with the legend, of course, Robert Parish, whether it's, you know, talking about his book, book signings, interviewing him, writing about him, feels like you've been writing every day over in the globe and encourage people to go and check that out. And of course the NCAA tournament is underway. We can touch on that just a little bit later on. And opening day for Major League Baseball, our Red Sox and Gary's Dodgers, that's right around the corner and as well coming up in the next few days. So I don't think there's a better place probably to jump in than by sort of, I guess, sort of melding the Robert Parish conversations with what is happening with the current day Boston Celtics because you've got a seized team that is riding a four game winning streak that is sitting now at 47 and 23, just four back of the Pistons for the top spot, spot in the Eastern Conference. But as we know, we're down to the stretch, the final games of the regular season and aspirations certainly inside that locker room, inside that building, but among the fans, very, very high. Nothing like what any of us could have realistically imagined going into the season. And yet here we are.

[C]

I mean Gary did say top four seed when we had him on the end of the summer. I will point this out.

[B]

He did, he did.

[A]

I, I do remember Gary saying, you know, like have you guys looked at the Eastern Conference who worried about. Exactly. And you know, to be fair, Detroit, you know, sitting again a few games up at 51 wins. Then you have the Knicks, the Cavaliers in the conversation. And then to me, quite a bit of a drop off. But Gary, like I said, let's start with, you know, how, how an NBA champion, a legend, part of the original Big Three here in Boston chief Robert Parish views today's Celtics. I know, like I said, you've been writing about it quite a bit. But as you've had a chance to talk with him, how impressed is he?

[B]

Well, I think he really is a big Joe Missoula fan and that, that's cool to see. You know, he's a guy who hasn't come around all that much in terms of, like, reunions and. And all the gatherings that they have over the years. You know, I've been here 16 years. I haven't. I've talked to him on the phone. I've definitely have built a relationship, but I haven't really seen him much in the Garden, so it was good to see him kind of come back. And, you know, he's telling the story in his book, but he definitely still follows the game closely. He has an admiration for how they play, especially on defense. He's always a defensive guy, as you guys know from his days. And I think he really, really likes kind of the culture that's being built, obviously, the Joe Missoula culture. Play hard, regardless of if you're playing 30 minutes or 30 seconds, anytime you could be ready, you need to be ready to play. So always prepare yourself for, you know, maximum usage, even though it might be minimum usage. So I think he really admires the culture. I think he likes the coaching, and I think he has admiration for, obviously for Tatum and Brown, but also the other guys. And he. He just said that the one thing that Missoula does is he instills confidence in all the guys one through 13, not just one through five, which will put them in good positions to succeed when they do get their opportunity. So that's why we've seen top performances, good defensive performances, rebounds, key plays from guys like Hugo Gonzalez and Baylor Shireman at times, Jordan Walsh, you know, Luca Garza obviously has reemerged as a. As the backup center to the point where, you know you're gonna have to continue to play him, because I just think he's so. Been so productive. So if you look at this team, it's kind of the definition of a team. You know, obviously, you've got the head of the snake right now and Jaylen Brown, MVP candidate, all NBA first team candidate. And you've got Tatum kind of trying to get his legs under him and get back into form, but you've also got a lot of guys who just contribute and who just do their part, and then they take their lunch pail and they just go home and they do it again the next day. And with no prima donnas on the roster and a very good locker room, a lot of guys that like each other, that's the necessary chemistry for the championship. And I think Parish noticed that.

[C]

Yeah, you look at the way this team plays, and you know that the docu series that Bill Simmons put out on HBO talked a lot about the fabric of the Celtics, the family of the Celtics. It's not just one thing. It's a group of things. It's about making an impact on your community. It's about playing hard. It's about team, team effort, teamwork, all those things. And I think you point out the bench being maybe the, the calling card of that sort of mantra. I mean, yeah, Boston has two, you know, all time NBA guys with Tatum and Brown on the roster, no question. And you're not going anywhere without the top guys on the roster. But I made the point last week, I think all of us agreed, Gary last week that the bench guys are kind of what makes this team way more powerful, way more dangerous as they get towards the playoffs. And you know, again, whether it's a Shireman or a Gonzalez or a Walsh or a Garza or A Ron Harper Jr. Coming off the bench, giving him clutch minutes, it just seems to be the next guy up. It's like an old Bill Belichick, you know, trope. That next guy up is just gonna come in and play. We had the discussion last week about their bench, about maybe being.

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The piece that separates them from everybody else. As you look at the conference and you look at how things are shaping up, obviously some time left. I happen to think that the SEAS bench, when you look at it, is just way better than most of the teams that they're going to play. I think it's maybe the secret sauce. And I think they have one of the deepest teams in the league. And if you had asked either of us, either Adam and I or that beginning of the season, we were always of the. The Celtics have the worst front court in the league. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're not even an NBA. They're a G league roster in the front court. You know, what is this?

[A]

What is that?

[C]

How surprised have you been with the contributions of again guys? 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, I mean, this has been the secret sauce and I think it's essentially what you're looking at is one of the three deepest teams in the league as we head towards the playoffs.

[B]

Yeah, Evan, I think that anyone would have been surprised at the performances and how multiple guys have stepped up because we obviously going into the season, you just didn't know how this team was going to shake out. Obviously everybody talks about the gap year or the, or the retooling year where you're just gonna let a bunch of guys play a bunch of minutes, get them experience and then Jason comes back and then you make the big run for 27. You figure out what to do in free agency. You figure out if you need to get rid of somebody, you need to bring new guys in. You try to get a decent, maybe a mid first round draft pick and a good draft and then you just keep it moving. But what has happened is all the guys who have put in all that work in practice and you know, garbage time minutes have all responded and stepped up and they found roles. And I just think a guy like Hugo Gonzalez, no one knew what to expect from Hugo. Very few of us had ever seen him play for Real Madrid. He barely played for Real Madrid. So you're thinking this is a draft and stash. This is a guy who's probably going to spend two years back in, in Spain and maybe when he's 20 or 21 and more mature they'll bring him in. But he ends up basically etching a role as kind of the energy guy and a guy who's starting to hit the corner three. Right. I think we thought that he might be spending most of his season in Maine. He's never spent a day in Maine. I think he might have been in a main practice with Tatum that one time he practiced with, with Maine during his comeback. But he hasn't gone to Portland at all. He's only gone to Portland, Oregon. So that's, that's been a revelation. You're looking at Baylor, Shireman, he was considered kind of a utility guy, a shooter. He has turned into a really, really plus rebounder for his size. Hustle guy, good defender. So Joe can trust Ugo on guys, he can trust Baylor on guys. That's huge, right? Kate has turned into a mid level starting center. You wouldn't put him in a top 10 starting centers, but you wouldn't put him 25 either. You put him in the, you know, 18, 19, 17. That's what you needed from him. You didn't need him to be A top five center. You needed him to be a decent center who doesn't get dominated every night. And at the beginning of the season he was losing some of those battles. Getting out foxed by Andre Drummond or getting out muscled by Jaylen Duran. You know, he was losing some of those battles and now he's, it's more even and sometimes he's getting his licks in, you know, like 27 and 17 game. I mean he, you know, there's times that he, he has the lower numbers, but there's also times he shows up big. Just like against the Grizzlies, they needed that rebounding. So their bench and you know, and I know Kate is not the bench, he's a starter, but just kind of like those complimentary guys have just come up and just delivered. I mean you, you know, even Anthony Simons had a really good stretch here. You know, I, I, I think if you ask Celtic fans, would you rather have him in the lineup and let Bouchevich stay in Chicago, they probably say, yeah, let's bring that guy back because he can give you some scoring off the bench. We'll see how the Vusovich thing, that's still to be determined how that's going to work out. But Garza, Garza is another guy, obviously a great college player. One of those kind of had the Caitlin Clark kind of career in at Iowa where he was all American and number retired and he'll never have to buy another drink in Iowa City to kind of an NBA journeyman where, well, you're slow and you're undersized and so he turns that, he gets his body together and he turns into this rebounding maven and it's like, you know, that's the thing about the NBA. If you do one thing really well, you have major value. And if you offensive rebound well, if you get your team x possessions, you're going to be a valuable player. A player that people do not want off the floor. So with Luca Garza, he has emerged and then Jordan Walsh has had his moments. I know now he's kind of maybe out of the rotation a little bit, but I mean he's, he's played decently, right after kind of two years of kind of, you know, well, is this guy gonna be, is this kind of gonna be anything? Is he just, you know, he's a second round pick. Is it, is he a kid that just came out of college a little too early and probably, you know, is, is mainly a guy who's gonna make his money overseas? Is he just Is he just going to be a bench player? You know, even they got. And then he has good stuff out of guys like, you know, Josh Minot. And I mean, I still don't like the fact that they just gave that guy to Brooklyn. I thought he could have. I thought. I thought he could have still stayed on the roster and then. But he's not there. And I think one of the reasons he's not there is development of Ron Harper Jr. And this is a guy who came into camp last year. He's a little overweight, I thought because of his shoulder, not talking, ripping him or anything like that. He just wasn't in that premium basketball condition. He was still coming off the injuries. He was still trying to get himself right this summer league and in this season, he comes in in premium shape. He's got. He's completely removed from that shoulder injury and he has turned into an NBA player. Right? This is a guy who had a really good career at Rucker. I mean, he's a good player. Before anybody knew about his younger brother, he was a quality college player. And he has turned himself into a guy who you can throw in there at any time. He can guard, he can shoot. And. And that's been a revelation. So you're talking about, like, there's nobody on that roster that you could say to yourself, well, man, he's not had a very good year. Like, I mean, talking even on the bench, because you could look at other. Some guys have been up and down. You know, the Housers have been up and down. Derrick White's had his moments, and Derrick White's kind of at times had his struggles. But you don't look at. No one on that roster's had a disappointing year, right? No one on that roster. And the guys that were kind of there, the Xavier Tillmans, the Minots, they got rid of. So everybody on that team has a. Has a use. You know, it might not be every night, but Joe can go to Jordan Walsh for 20 minutes and he can produce and do the little things. The same with Shireman, the same with Luca Garza, and that's what. And they've like, you know, Vage has been out two weeks now, and I don't. Is anybody. He's not really been missed, you know. Now when he comes back, we will see how that dynamic works and all that. But I don't see people saying, man, they really need Voice. Like, do they need voice to be a championship team that. Could they use them? Oh, I think they could use them. Yes. Do I think he's absolute necessity. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, just to take this a step further and we'll bring it back to this season, but this going all the way back to the off season. Not that again. Evan or I or anyone who ever guessed it on this show believed that Boston would realistically be in the NBA Finals conversation as obviously the Cs very much are and have the best betting odds to win the east and all of that. You know, I, I think the, the main thing we were looking for from this year was if you're Brad Stevens, if you're Mike Zarin, if you're Joe Missoula, if you're, you know, just part of that basketball brass, your, your goal from a year in which you may never see Jason Tatum is to evaluate who's part of the next iteration of a Celtics championship. Who's who, who can you comfortably have on a roster that you think competes a year from, from then to Banner 19 and all of that. And if you go up and down, you know, you obviously just highlighted all the guys on the roster. But if we're talking about salaries, if you're going to have two superstars, if you're gonna have Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown accounting for roughly 70% of your salary cap, the only way you're going to make that work, obviously is with depth guys. And right now I'm just looking at salaries for next year. Derek White, of course, is right around $30 million and deservedly so. And that's for anyone wondering, that's about 18 of the cap. Vuccvic, who I don't expect back, is an unrestricted free agent. We'll see what happens there. Hauser is at about $11 million. Again, perspective, that's about six and a half percent of the cap, but really it's all these other guys that are sub 10. Payton Pritchard is less than $8 million. Hugo Gonzalez, because of that rookie contract is at 3. Shireman less than 3. Garza less than 3. K is less than 3. You have a club option on Walsh, who's coming in at two and a half.

[C]

Harper, they're gonna pick that up, I

[A]

think, I think they're gonna pick, I'd say so restricted. Harper Jr. Is, you know, 1% of your, your salary cap at about $2 million for next year. And it looks like all of these guys that I just mentioned that you just outlined can play. And so I'm, you know, I, I, I just, I, I would love to know. And you're more connected obviously than the Two of us. What do you suppose those conversations are like intern internally in terms of basketball operations and, you know, evaluating what they have seen this year. Clearly overachieving, but then into next year and what types of moves need to be made to take this team to yet another level.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting how it's all going to go down in the offseason because now, you know, you can essentially run it back and then try to maybe tweak something here and there. You're going to have a first round pick come in, you know, who is that going to be? And you know, are you going to do anything in free agency? Do you need some more shooting? Do you need another, you know, wing? Or do you rely on a guy who's not, you know, who, who has played well this year? Expanded roles for Shireman, expanded roles for Jordan Walsh at an interesting position where they don't need major, major upgrades. And everyone's contracts kicking in. Obviously Derek's extension, sorry, Jason's extension's kicking in now. Derek is still back. Jalen's money is still going to be there, as you mentioned. So they got three guys making over $30 million a year, but the rest of the guys are cheap. And that's what you want. I think that, that Peyton Pritchard contract going to turn into a major bargain. And obviously when he signed for 7 and 21 more than a year ago, it looked like, well, that's kind of a lot, but now it's a complete bargain. So I think they're very, they're obviously they're managed very well. And you know, in this today's NBA, as you guys know, like, not everybody can make 30 million a year. You're gonna have to score on some of your draft picks or guys you sign the free. The cheap guys are free. You, you've got to score on those guys. Like you're not going to be able to make pay everybody $35 million a year. And if you look at Oklahoma City, they got the guys like A.J. mitchell, they got the other Arkansas, Jalen Williams, they've got, you know, Hardenstein makes 29 million. He. But he's barely playing because he's been hurt. And you know, Holmgren's extensions coming up and obviously SGA and Jalen Williams. But a lot of those guys, AJ Mitchells, they don't make a lot of. And that's how you have to flourish in today's league. You have to score with some of these young guys. You can't pay everybody with the Second apron all this damn money and expect to flourish because it's eventually it's going to catch up with you like it did. Sort of the Celtics, where you got to clear the decks with Porzingis and Holiday and let Horford and Cornette walk. But when you realign and you regroup and you bring in guys who are healthy, productive, and hungry and that's what the Celtics have done, then it works out well. So this offseason will be very interesting to see what they do if they feel like, you know, does another major player fall into their lap. But they've got to trade somebody who knows how that goes, who becomes available by with other teams, what the draft looks like. The Celtics, you know, and I'm not, you know, do they. Do they sell all out for AJ To Banjo? Like, I'm not saying they would, but, like, you know, are there possibilities like that where there's somebody that they absolutely love in the draft who's a top 15 pick, but they have 28. Do they trade up? You know, like, there's a lot of things that be. That could go on that could help the future of the team that we don't even know about.

[A]

I mean, if you want to. If you want to move up and get AJ who might be the number one overall pick in the draft, that's probably going to, you know, cost you Jaylen Brown plus something.

[C]

You know, that's a.

[A]

That's an organizational reset at that point.

[B]

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[C]

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[C]

What do you, what do you make is different about like Boston does this? I think this year has shown that their, their ability to develop guys is pretty good. You know, Oklahoma City, they identify. I mean, sometimes they just get Jared McCain handed to them, but sometimes they develop guys that they draft on their own. And you look at like Case and Wallace is a great example of this. Obviously Jalen Williams, both of them have been spectacular. You look at San Antonio, they've had some luck obviously with the lottery picking high up. But the guys they've taken, I mean Stefan Castle, I can't believe he didn't go number one. And now he's there, you know, starting whatever guard you want to call them and flirting with. According to Bill Simmons, maybe an all NBA team. They have, you know, Devin Vassell on that team, Kelvin Johnson on that team.

[A]

They've.

[C]

There's some teams out there that do a really good job of developing what makes the Celtics maybe different than everybody else because they've had an outrageous amount of. I don't know if it's luck. I Know, if it's, if it's, if it's skill in terms of picking guys, if it's just their, their system, what is it? Because it's, it's something.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's their system and I think they learned from a couple of experiences. Like Sam Houser walked because Max Trce crawled. And what I mean by that is they gave up on Max Dr. And he ended up becoming a real key contributor for the Heat. Now he's been often injured and that type of thing in Cleveland now, you know, he got his money in Cleveland and has he. Has it paid off? Not really. But in Miami he turned into a really quality three point shooter and the Celtics said, damn, we kind of let him walk. I think would they trade him to the Bulls or whatever? And you know, they kept Javante and that wasn't a bad move. Javante's made a, you know, now as a, as a key contributor for the, for the Pistons. But I think they felt like, okay, we've got to develop better. And the Kada thing is a great example how. The Houser thing is a great example. Okay, this guy is a G league player right now, but in two years. And we want this guy to be a NBA player. So this is what we need to do. Send them, send them to Maine. You know, just work, work on some of his weaknesses. It's gonna be, it's gonna take time and that's what you have to do. That's what they did with Jordan Walsh. I mean, and Jordan is still very much a work in progress, but I do think he has taken leaps and bounds from his rookie season. I mean, we, we live in an, in an, in a college world where, okay, they're the one and dones, they're the Banzas and the Petersons and the Stefan Castles, the guys who are. Can't miss their NBA ready. Then we're getting a group of one and dones that are not ready. Like, stay your ass in school. Just take the nil money. They're coming out. And then you've got like the Cadas and the Housers, the guys, or even the Garzas, guys who are veteran college players who have a skill but they still need tutelage even though they're 23 and 24. And you got to work with those guys too. It's just like I said with the second apron, you have to land on players like, you know, you, you have to, if you're the Lakers, you have to find the Austin Reeves. Like, you've got to Find guys who fit in your system that might be. Take a couple of years. And the fans have to be patient. Now there's really nobody. I mean, you could say Ron Harper's a guy that's kind of in that midst of that development, although you could see more positives coming from that. But to me, I think the Celtics have just shown patience. I think Brad has a culture that he likes and I think that they've learned from some of their past mistakes. You know, the James Youngs of the world and the RJ Hunters, like, you know, they missed on guys, you know, guys who weren't serious about the game, guys who were one dimensional. And now you take guys who can develop into something. It might take time. And that's the thing. There's so many teams now, if you look at the, the previous five or six drafts, that team, some of these guys, teams just give up on. Like, you're not, you know, you're not mean.

[C]

Look at Marvin Bagley. Marvin Bagley got drafted second. And you can always, whatever, whoever the Kings draft, they could. You could make this argument for like, Marvin Bagley bounced around a little bit and found a home in Washington, of all places. And it's like kind of turned himself around a little bit. Like, I remember watching him in college, he get two feet in the paint when he was with Duke and it was game over. He's either scoring two or going to the free throw line. And there was at least a skill there that you could develop. I mean, it's a development thing, but it's also just. There has to be a skill for identifying talent and how talent translates. I think maybe that's the secret that Boston has figured out that a lot of teams haven't. Boston, maybe with the ability of Brad, coached in college football, coached in the pros, knows what guys look like and maybe can extrapolate, but like, nobody's really. I mean, outside of Oklahoma City, you know, Indiana's had a couple of great picks. The, the spurs met a couple of great picks, but it just feels like there's a couple teams that levitate above everybody else and there has to be some. Something going on. I don't know what it is, but it's. I'm thankful for it because it's every night a guy comes out and like his hair's on fire and blows the doors off.

[B]

It's great. Yeah. I mean, and you look. And you look at the guys. You know, a guy like Aaron NE Smith. Right, right. Remember the, you know, he was here and played with his hair on fire and kind of just wasn't refined and he was considered, quote unquote, a shooter and he wasn't hitting shots. But then, you know, and, and you got Brogdon out of him and you made the, you know, and, and, and you know, that worked and Brock and won six man of the year. But, you know, I'm sure there was some regret there. Like, damn, you know, we could have stuck with that guy because now he's a grown man, a great defender, good shooter, helped Indiana get to the final. So I just think Celtics learned their lesson in previous years from some of their previous drafts and turned their kind of maybe made some changes to the developmental programs and, and showed a little bit more patience with guys, you know, to where you can now reap the benefits. Because you're gonna need cheap talent. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna need guys who help and don't make a lot of money because you look at, you know, the, you know, they scored. I mean, you know, J.D. davidson, you know, they, they tried with him. Now he's still on the two way in Houston. Grant Williams ended up working out, although, you know, but you look at Romeo Langford bust, you know, Niecemith traded. You traded the pick that everybody is still furious about, the 30 pick. They end up being Desmond Dane, you know, so there's a, there's a lot of little things I think the Celtics learned from that quite honestly has led to their outstanding developmental system.

[A]

We'd like to remind everybody, check out Celtics beat. Check out the Big Three NBA podcast as well. Available to you on the CLNS YouTube page, the main page, the all access page. You can also subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Always good to check that out if you want to see us, if you want to listen to us, rate, review, leave comments, all of that good stuff. It's always appreciate it. Let's take a quick break, tell you about our good friends over at prize picks. Shoot your shot on prize picks. Get $50 instantly in lineups when you play your first for only $5. That's right, prize picks now giving you 50 bucks in lineups when you sign up and play your first five dollar lineup. Price picks makes every dunk, every dime, every board that much more exciting. So do not miss this chance to get started on America's number one app for sports picks.

[C]

Yeah, Kaufman, it's price fix is the best. We've been doing flex play Fridays on this show for, for quite some time and again, two out of three tends to just do it for me and Koffman. Guess what happened last week.

[A]

Oh, I'm gonna say two out of three. Yeah.

[C]

Guess what? You'd be right. Again. This is getting to the most ridiculous point. And honestly, I had the early cash out option Conkman, and I didn't take it. I should have taken it because I would have. I would have. I would have acquired some more money, but I still got my 21 back and we're still playing with that 21 we missed on the jail and more than five and a half assists versus the Wizards. He got five, so we just missed that one. So we're gonna. We're gonna dive it back up here again. We're gonna start with Kobe White. Kobe white. More than 21 points, rebounds and assists versus the Grizzly. He's been playing really well. There's a guy that got away from Chicago, I guess. I don't know. Chicago tends to keep guys they shouldn't get rid of guys they. They should keep. Patrick Williams still there. Nikhil Alexander walker. More than 18 1/2 points versus the Warriors. He's had a great season, but on fire recently. And then. I can't look, I can't. Don Chich has been incredible recently. He had the 60 pointer against Miami. We're gonna go. Luca more than 33 and a half points versus the Magic. I know the Magic defensively a little bit tougher, but Luca's just been on an absolute heater and it's making a push for the mvp. So we're going to take Luca in that capacity again. You guys know I hit all three. I, I 3x my money, two out of three, get my money back, which is probably going to happen. I'll. I'll update everybody as we keep going here. And again, getting your money into your account couldn't be any easier. At a little 15 minutes. Just watch it roll in your account, whether it's your bank account, debit card, Venmo, whatever. It's easy. And again, in the rare opportunity and I had one last week off, I didn't take it. But sometimes you hit two out of three quick, you can. You can cash out and actually make some money, unlike me. So pay attention to that stuff. If you're watching and you get two out of three, two out of three, you know, parts of your line of pit you can cash out early coffin. And maybe, maybe this week is the week. I'd become smart about that. Maybe it is. Probably not, but maybe it is.

[A]

So download the prize picks app today. Use the code CLNS you get fifty bucks instantly in lineups after playing your first five dollar lineup. That is promo code clns. You get fifty dollars in lineups after playing your first for just five bucks. Prize picks. It's good to be right. We're here with Gary Washburn and again, let's, let's bring it back a little bit, I guess, more to this year's Celtics and what this team is looking to achieve, which again, as we sit here in mid to late March, we're talking Banner 19. We're talking about the possibility of representing the Eastern Conference come the Postseason in the NBA Finals. 3 game homestand on the way. It begins as we sit here the tomorrow Sunday against the Timberwolves and then the Thunder and then the Hawks. So all teams that very well could be part of the postseason field. And then you have the Hornets, the Hawks, the Heat, all on the road, the Bucks as well. Even though Milwaukee has basically waved the white flag on its season, telling Giannis, hey, we don't want you to play anymore. It's a good time for just that. Periodic checkup on Jason Tatum, who now has played and started seven games since his return from injury, averaging just south of 20 points per game, eight and a half rebounds, three and a half assists, a steal, couple Turnovers as well. 30 minutes per game, just a little bit below that. The minutes restriction that everyone pretended wasn't there has climbed from a consistent 27 to 32 of late. He is shooting 39%, 30% from 3, about 88% from the free throw line. Just to give you some numbers around what he has done of late, generally speaking, yeah, there have been some moments that he's not fully Tatum, but overall I think he has exceeded most people's expectations. He's generally been consistent. There have absolutely been those Tatum of old flashes a hell of a lot sooner than I expected them to be here. The, the conversation though, Gary, that everybody wants to have is some people want to pit again, the Jays against one another and identify, hey, how can they play together? How does this work? Whose team is it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think a lot of that conversation is stupid. The, the element of the conversation that I, that I do consistently acknowledge, though, is that there is an L there. There is a part of this that, that does require a little bit of nuance and massaging and trying to figure out how everything works so that everything is comfortable. It's not can they coexist like people used to ask going into playoff run after playoff, one run until they finally got over the hump. But there is a, a basketball component to, you know, Jason is not 100 yet, probably not even quite close. And Jalen is obviously having a career year. And some of the comments in the media, I don't, I, I feel like Jalen at times. I'm curious how you feel could be saved from himself a little bit. Some of the comments come off a little like he's a martyr in this situation, has to again, change himself to make room for another guy. Why do I have to evolve to, you know, all of that as opposed to. Again, he could just say something like, hey, it's great to have Jason back. He's such an important piece for us. And, and this is really exciting. He takes it a step further and I think brings some of the criticism upon himself from again, people in the media, not fans necessarily. Fans are out there giving him MVP chance on a 741 float in Southie, you know, so I think the community relationship is improving. But I'm curious what you think of what you've heard from Jaylen as. As this couple week progression has continued.

[B]

What do I think like, about what his comments and how he's like, yeah,

[A]

more, more how he's kind of accepting all of this versus how it looks on the court. I think on the court it looks fine. But how do you think it's playing?

[B]

I mean, I think he's trying to process it. I mean, I, I think it's, it's. It goes to a lot of things, you know, like my day kicks off

[A]

with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then

[B]

straight to the gym, pre K pickup

[A]

back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius.

[B]

Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits.

[A]

I'm ready.

[B]

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[A]

Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at

[B]

your local retailer or locate [e-mail] Jalen was introduced last in this, in the, in his starting lineups all the first 62 games and now he's fourth again. And it's Jason, you know, things like that. I mean, they're just little things that he's gonna have to adjust to. And I'm not saying anything that he's like, doesn't like. I think their relationship is good. I think that they've always been good. They've always, they've been, they've pushed each other, they've been competitive. Of course they're too, you know, cut from the same cloth in terms of their, their desire to win and desire to be Great. But I do think Jalen wants Jason around, and I think he sees an opportunity. I saw two plays last night, and I asked Jason Jalen about this after the game against Memphis, where he knew Jace Jason was struggling. Jason misses our first eight shots. Jason just didn't have it. He missed a lot of threes, and he gave Jason a nice little pass at the rim. Easy layup. And Jason fumbled out of bounds. Same half, first half, Jalen dribbles, has an elbow, and his three was dropping last night. Has an elbow three, looks at Jason on his right, sees him wide open in front of the Celtics bench at the corner, hits him, hits this first shot of the game. Like, Jalen does not have to do that. Jalen could just. Just be like, okay, dude, you're not where you're at. I am where I'm at. I am the a guy on this team right now. I'm going to score all the points. I'm gonna take over. He's not doing that. And so I'm not sure how. What people expect Jalen to say, like, of course you would love, man. I just missed that guy so much, you know? But I do think Jalen enjoyed the freedom of just kind of. I mean, who wouldn't? He's worked hard, too, you know, but of course, I think he understands and knows we have to have Jason to win a championship, you know, but damn, we was. We were doing pretty well before when he was out, so let's give some respect to that. So I think it puts Jalen in a very interesting and difficult position, you know, because we want guys to be honest, and then we want them to say what we want them to say. Like, which one is it? You know, Jalen's been an open book to us. He. He keeps it real. He's been honest. He does not lie to us. And, oh, man, Jalen, you should have said this. But then we want these guys to be honest. We want the. We don't want these guys not to have any ego. We want these guys to be rah, rah, rah for the team. And it's. I don't care. What about my numbers? I don't care about my respect. It's just as long as we win. There's certain guys who are like that, and there are certain guys on the socks who want to hit a bunch of homers on the ruins who want to score a bunch of goals, and the Patriots who want to score touchdowns or get sacks. Like. And I'm not saying Jalen is, like, all about his Numbers. But I do think he wants to fulfill his personal potential, just as Jason does. You know, he wants his respect, that he feels like his. He has not gotten rightfully around the league. And I think he feels like he's soaking that in. When people say, man, that, damn, I didn't know Jason Jalen was capable of this. I think he likes that. So for me, I don't know what people really want him to say, and I don't think he said anything to where I'm like, you know, he's been honest. It's been an adjustment. You know, it's for the team. But I do think, visibly he's trying to help get Jason going. He doesn't want Jason to struggle. He doesn't want Jason to sit there in the corner and, like, be unsure of himself. What would benefit that. The team? What would benefit Jalen to do that? So he wants Jason to get going. I mean, and I've seen them, they passing each other the ball. They're giving each other the. The, like, got you. Like, I see it, and I don't know what other fans or, you know, people are looking at me, don't watch the whole Celtic game, but I just don't see a problem. I just don't see. I just think Jalen has been a team guy, a leader. Like he said, he's learned all. There's the new numerology, answers. He's learned all their numbers and. And. And. And he has been a complete leader. So I'm not sure what people expect out of Jalen. Like, I'm just, you know, like, could he save him from himself? Do I want him to be honest? Of course. I want every athlete I deal with to be honest. That's, you know, that's what we. That's what we're asking for, right? And then when they're honest, and then you get people and. And. And this is my problem. You get people who don't go to games, who've never talked, had a conversation with either. These guys giving their Jason Jalen, Dr. Joyce Brothers. It's probably for you guys, time. Damn synopsis of their damn relationship. And they've never even been to a Celtic game. They're just, like, harping on radio shows from what they see. And they. And then that becomes Boston media. And then I get. I get the fire from that because they look at me like, damn, what y' all talk? Why y' all ripping us? Like, it's not y'. All. It's some dude who doesn't do his homework, who's trying to make a name for himself, who's trying to go viral with his opinions. That's what we're doing here. So I think we had to be careful with this, Jake, because it's like they've never been to a game. They've never. They don't go to. They don't go to Media Day. You don't have a conversation with Jalen or Jason. They don't even get to know him. And it's okay for guys, everybody to have their own opinions, but when they're doing psycho dam analysis on the relationship between Jason and Jalen, like, and you've never had a conversation with one of them, that gets frustrating for the people who do have conversations with them and know their dynamic and have been around this for nine years and see their dynamic and how, like, you know, they dap each other. They call, you know, Jason calls them old man. Like. Like, people don't know that unless you're there. So I don't mind people having opinions, but it gets shaped as Adam and you know, this Boston media because one dude had a damn opinion because he's trying to go viral with the opinion. He's trying to make your Twitter page. He's trying to make the, you know, not the Twitter, the X page. That is the people you follow, but the ones that says for you.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

The stuff that you should be interested in. He's trying to make that one right. And so I just think we're just going too much into this. It just gets tired to sit there and watch. You know, you see the dynamic as you see the game. You see last night. He's trying to get Jason going. And I was like, Jason and Jay, I just thought we were over this when they won the championship. Right. I just thought this was over. And yes, it's not. It's just going to continue. And the sad part is, like, not the sad part, but the fascinating part to me is that they're going to be associating each other for the rest of the forever. It's just like the big three. It's like Burke, Mckel and Parish. It's going to be Jason and Jaylen. This is their time. It's like Pierce, Garnett and Allen, like, it's going to be. They're going to be associated with each other and spoken in the same sentence. It's like Pippin and Jordan now. Freaking pathetic. Is it, that they're beef like Pippin saying all this about Jordan 30 years after they played together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in any. In Any workspace. If you go, yeah, we're the Pippin and Jordan up at FedEx, then you people know exactly what you're talking about. You know, Oh, y' all the dynamic duo. Yeah, he's Jordan, I'm Pippen. Like, you know what that means. You know, hey, we're the Jordan people to Microsoft. Like, you know that reference.

[C]

And it's like.

[B]

And yet there. This is going to be like, you know, we're the Jason and Jalen of. Of the, you know, Brighton ymca. And it's like, okay, you know what that means? So they. I think they both appreciate each other for that. They both know they're going to be spoken in the same sentence forever. It's. This is how it is. They've been with the same team for the nine, ten years they've been teammates. Nine, ten years. This is how it's going to go. I don't care if Jalen gets traded tomorrow or whatever. They're going to be associated with each other. And so I think they both understand that. And they've done nothing publicly to show that they have any beef. But here comes X radio guy, ex Boston guy, who's like, hey, man, I wanna, you know, I want to make some headlines. Let me throw this out. Let me psychoanalyze their damn relationship. Like, stop it.

[C]

No, I feel that. I feel that.

[B]

I mean, like, like, that's. That's the thing. And it's. It's, you know, everybody. Everybody. The problem is, guys, it's not. Everybody wants to have an opinion. That's fine. Everybody wants to be a freaking insider. Yeah, everybody wants to be a freaking insider. Everybody.

[C]

You know what's crazy about that? If you actually had that job, I bet you'd hate it. Like, people don't understand what John's does on a daily basis.

[B]

Yes. To text, to call, to. To make these relationships, to get calls in the middle of the night. Are you serious?

[C]

You don't want that job?

[B]

What?

[C]

Could you go on TV every day and everything you say goes viral? Is that what you want in your life?

[A]

Don't you remember what Chefter said? Going to the bathroom, holding yourself in one hand, your phone in the other.

[B]

Yes. Hold your. Your.

[C]

You want that lifestyle. I walked that out for a reason. Why do you think Woj left?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Exhausting me out of here.

[A]

Go ahead.

[C]

I just wanted to point out, like, Gary's argument, an argument, I should say, statement about, like, we want guys to be authentic, but we want them to be authentic in our way. Right. It's a very Unique grasp on. On how people need to act in public. I had a similar feeling with people getting upset about Jason Tatum's docu series that he promoted leading up to his return. People are like, you know, this is ridiculous. Whatever. I'm like, first off, it's three minutes, okay? It's three to four minutes of your day. It's like five episodes. And it's also about a person who everybody says can't be the face of league because we don't know much about him. He. We don't know about his. We don't know about his character. We don't know about this, we don't know about that. He's so secretive, whatever. And I'm like, so he shows you an inside look of it, probably the hardest time of his life, and gives you three minutes five times. And everybody's like, this is stupid. We don't like it. This is ridiculous.

[B]

And I'm like, I'm like, come. I'm like, this is what you wanted

[C]

and he gave it to you and you don't like it. Like, screw. I just.

[B]

I.

[C]

Similarly, I have. I. I agree with you, Gary. I think you're right. It's like, heaven forbid someone's honest with everybody about how he feels about things in real time. Like, heaven forbid.

[B]

I mean, that's, I think as. As reporters, as journalists, that's what you want. And it might not be what you want to hear, but you like the honesty. You like when someone bears their soul. We tend to only like when someone bears their soul when the is over, when their career is over. And then they want to tell you about the 78 socks or the 86 socks. They want to tell you about the beer and chicken. Like, they want to tell you stories on a podcast. Like, that's the only time. And, you know, is that what we're headed, guys? Are we headed with all these former players arguing with each other over old beefs on podcasts? Because every former player now has a podcast and he's telling stories, and then the one guy talks about it like, that's not true. That didn't happen back in 2000. Now we're telling 25 year old stories.

[A]

But, Gary, this here's the problem. This. This goes so far beyond sports. This is where we are as a culture. I'll give you a terrible example. You guys remember that. I mean, this was more like my era than. Than either of yours. But you guys remember that show Boy Meets World was popular for a little while?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So the hosts of that show, your Little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive. Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider your future growth. Bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details. A few of them anyway. The, not, not the main one, not Ben Savage, but the others, the other main people on the show. They've got a podcast now. I don't listen to it. I see clips pop up on my Instagram and all that and I'll, I'll check those out and they, it's the same kind of thing. It's like they're, they're having old cast members like guest stars on the show or people who are on for one season on for a show who they've had these, you know, falling out situations where, and like they'll come on to talk about the, that they fought about 30 years ago or whatever it was and why they're still not over it and trying to, oh, so this person's trying to, you know, heal it. This person's still angry. And it's like, this is just where we are as a society. This isn't just the old heads, the former athletes doing this stuff. These are, these are, you know, like kid actors that are, that are barely in Hollywood anymore that are rehashing from the 90s. I don't know what it is, but it doesn't stop, it doesn't go away.

[B]

I hope, I mean, I don't know, Adam, I mean, you're the, you're obviously in that world where you're talking to people, but that's the problem. Everybody's going on podcasts and then they're saying, hey, what happened with this? What happened in this situation? He gives his side and then the person who he's talking about then gives their side. Now we got Kenyon Martin and Tim Thomas arguing over some club incident in 2004 in Dallas. Like, this is where we're have, this is where we've declined to, you know, and we got guys telling old stories. And if you deal, you guys have dealt with athletes. Like some of their memories are not accurate. Some guys, most, most professional athletes are completely oblivious and at. And clueless about the impact of their own careers. Some are very much downplay their career. Like they're very humble that, you know, you would Never know that they were eight time all star, hall of Famer. And then you got guys who literally played seven years in the league telling you how good they were and how they were cooking folks in practice and how it was this, that the reason why they didn't get the chance to be an all time great. And oh man, I was dominating like that practice and you know, like, really you were like, look at the numbers. And so now you have. Because the all time great, a lot of the all time greats aren't doing podcasts. It's the meat, it's the, the middle guys who are talking about their careers and talking themselves up because it's what they wanted to do. Or now that they're older and they're over the money and the women and the life and they, they would say, man, I should have dedicated myself more to the game. So, you know, I was still pretty good. But man, because they're now, now having like remorse about that they didn't take advantage of the window that they had. Right? And so to me, that's what's hurting sports journalism. That's what's hurting. It's just, it's just ridiculous. And I just think what's hurting our credibility as journalists, especially in Boston with this Jalen and Jason stuff is people who come in out of the blue with these opinions, who, trying to psychoanalyze relationships. If you want to ask somebody who knows or go to a practice, go to a game, or just give your honest opinion of this is what I see and what I observe, or this is what I think, but to tell the world that this is what's going on, or everybody's got an insider, like, no, you know, like, that's what, that's what makes this whole thing with Jason and Jaylen confusing. And I'm sure one day, like Shaq and Kobe did, they're going to get on a podcast or they're going to have a, a show from NBA TV or from Netflix or Amazon, and they're going to discuss everything that went on in their careers together, from the Gordon Hayward stuff to the Kyrie Menagerie to winning a championship to, you know, to the email year, you know, all that. And they're probably going to bring Marcus on and they're like, like, and they'll probably talk about all the good stuff that happened during their, however long they played together. But in honesty, from what I see, and I've been there since the beginning, they are good and they root for each other. And I said, but does Jalen Enjoy being the primary scorer? Like, does he enjoy shutting up critics that have been there as old. Of course he does. Of course. Does he enjoy seeing Jason try to come back? Like, did he want. Does he want Jason to come back? Yeah. Could he have done. Could he have worked? Could he, at one game wore some Tatums and then pointed to the shoe like Pippen did 30 years ago? Could he have done that? Yep. You know, and how. How. How that relationship turn out? How Pippen, Jordan relationship turned out great right now. Yeah, exactly. So is that what you want? You want to do some symbolic stuff? You know, wear some Tatums one game and then point, like, we. We need you back, brother. Like, give me a. Like, you know, does that mean Deuce

[A]

will be dating Jalen's ex one day?

[B]

Well, God, don't even.

[C]

Don't even go there, guys.

[B]

Leave that. Yeah, let's move on from that. But before. Before, that's the thing. Oh, God. Boy, Adam had to. Adam had to. Adam had to go. You know, he had to take it there.

[A]

Full picture, that's all. Just give it a good. If we're gonna do the comp, let's do it right.

[B]

Deuces. Deuces. What? How old?

[A]

Seven, eight years old.

[C]

Yeah, he's like five. Seven already.

[B]

He's eight. He's eight. So, yeah, like, he's eight. So, yeah, let's. Let's. Let's pause.

[A]

By the way, is that Jason's other kid? That's. That's in the commercials now?

[B]

Yes. I think that's the kind of the debut of Dylan. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I. I hadn't. Yeah, I mean, this. I hadn't really seen Dylan before this.

[B]

We have not seen Dylan. And, you know, we know, you know, he's exists, obviously, and the mother. But Jason's private about his family, you know, without. In terms of his, you know, and like, honestly, his. His personal life and what. He does not interest me at all, like, in terms of. Unless he wants to talk about it. Sure. I think he comes from a great structure. You know, him and Jalen are different. You know, Jalen is traveling the world. Jason's a dad. That's what makes them different. Everybody look like, you know, McKellen, McHale and Bird did not party together and hang out together. Like. Like, we give this. We glorify all. The big three was inseparable. Like, there were issues with the big three. You know, the funny thing is, this is. This is hilarious. Okay, so the globe. So Cedric Maxwell has beef with the Globe. I mean, Cedric, Max has beef with everybody but. And including me. And. And he is my closest ex Celtic friend. Like, he is. He is a great guy. Amazing guy. I love, man, but he's like, you know what y' all used to do at the Globe during our time when the Celtics won and it was Bird. It was always Bird Mikhail and Bird Mikhail and Danny on page eight, C1. Hey, the good guys win. Bird does it again. A triple double. When we would lose, it would be me in chief and Dennis like, what the hell's wrong with the Celtics? The brothers messed up again. It had to be one of their faults. It couldn't be Larry fault, Kevin's fault. He goes. Every time we would lose, it'd be me in chief walking off the court with our heads down like the brothers failed us again, hysterical. And that's. And I read Parish's book and he said the same thing. And we got hassled in the paper when we lost. It was the brother's fault. Damn, if Dennis didn't make that, should have made that pass. Damn it, Chief. Should have got that rebound. Max, how about hitting a mid range jumper once in a while and then when we win, hey, Walton the good guy. Hey, you know, Jerry C. Stein, Scott Redmond. Way to go, buddy. You know, I mean, so that's. I. I wasn't there. Like, if Shawty C ever comes to a game, Maxwell says the same thing to him. Like, you killed us. Y' all killed us with your photos. Especially after losses, we would pick up the part because that's the. That was the medium. The main mode of communication was the newspaper back then. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't the Internet. And we would look at the front page, and if we lost, we knew who was getting on the COVID It was us. It was me, Chief, Quinn Butner or Sam Vincent or Dennis Johnson, dj, You know, David third kill. Hey, you up too. So everything. So we. We glorify those days, and they were glorious days. They won championships, but they still hold grudges on those days. And I don't. I wasn't there during those times. I did not work at the Globe.

[A]

Your fault. Your Globe by association.

[B]

Yeah, that's 25 years before my time at the Globe. But I just think it's hysterical. And, And I think Max even brought some proof of, like, a front page with, like, him and Chief walking off the floor. And after a loss, like, yeah, the brothers messed up again, you know. You know, I don't know how much we can trust these guys. We ain't beating the Lakers with these trumps. And I just think so we glorify. But that, to me, that is hysterical. And, and Sean as. He just laughs because he has no defense for it. So. No, that's all that was. That was. That's. That's my story.

[A]

So many other things that I could ask and none of them feel important anymore. I know you, you had one more on the way out the door, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I just think like there's been a lot of talk about the 65 game limit and whether they should do that. Should be 60, should just get rid of it entirely. And it started to affect, you know, Cade, you know, has this problem. It's, you know, hopefully it's gets healthy shortly and gets back to 100. But everybody's talking about, you know, do we need to change the rules, blah, blah. The only thing I want, I, you know, do you have a, all NBA vote? I think you do, yes. How hard is this first team on B a vote for you? Because there's a lot of guys that are, you know, viable candidates pending if they play so many games. Yeah. Versus, you know, you got a guy like Jalen who's been there all year and you know, he's has carried a team to a top two seed in the conference. I think that's impressive. But there's just a lot, a lot up in the air. How do you make sense of it?

[B]

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[C]

Try it today at Starbucks.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I just think you're gonna have to look at the 65 game limit. I know, like when Benyama, I think, can only miss two more games before he. For him to hit 65, you got to look at Jokic because he had the knee injury. So you're just gonna have to look at games play because if Cade Cunningham misses the rest of the regular season, he's not going to make it. I do, I do think that completely opens the door for Jalen to make first team because I just think it's unquestionably he's a first team. But you had Cade, Jokic, Wimby and sga and then you want to throw in. If you wanted to throw in a Donovan Mitchell, there was going to be some questions about, you know, who was going to be first team. So I think Jaylen has probably got that locked up as long as he, he makes. And I think, you know, he's. He's going to make the 65 game limit. I like the 65 game limit, but. And I think we have, we tend to have short term history in terms of we did not like guys winning awards playing 50 of the 82 games. I remember Mike Miller won rookie of the year. He played 50 games once upon a time. You know, we just didn't like that. And I just think the guys were falling far short of the 65 game limit and not in winning awards. And so which way do we want it? Do we want to lower it to 60 or 55 to where you're playing? If you play 2/3 of the season? I mean, I don't know about other sports. If Aaron Judge plays 120 of the 162, is that good enough for MVP? Like, would you vote for him for MVP if he played 120 of the 162? If March. If you know, Brad Marchand played, you know, 55 of the 82 NHL games? Like, we're like, let's look at other sports. And how does that go? If, if, if Drake May missed six games and played 11 games of the 17, would he have still been a viable MVP candidate? I don't. I think the answer would be absolutely not. Right. So I think the NBA has to set some type of standard. You can't have guys playing 48 games and being up for MVP.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

And then if it is a certain amount of games. Well, how many is it? 48 is not good, but 58 is okay. Like, what do we like? I think 65 is a line that needs to be drawn because of load management. Unfortunately, what we've had is a influx of injuries for major guys to take them out of contention. And that's what we don't like. We want to vote for Jokic. We want to give Cade Cunningham, who has led the Pistons, the number one seed, his flowers. But so do we lower the number of games? So we say 60, then we say 75 of the season. And does that 60 make a difference? Because when someone plays 58, someone's gonna have a damn problem.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Oh, we need to all this game limit sucks, you know, like, because your favorite players aren't winning MVP because they're missing games. But look at the other sports. If A guy missed 40 games in baseball, would he have MVP consideration? Because that's what we're talking about. That's. We have to ask ourselves, right? I, I'd have to do research. Like the lowest of the, of the MLB MVPs over the last. Let's go 40 years. What's the lowest games played for a non pitcher? You know, I remember we got mad at Felix winning, Felix Rodriguez winning, cy Young with 14 wins. Like there's, there's just stuff that happens, especially nowadays in baseball. It's guys not going nine innings so you can't really count complete games anymore.

[A]

And guys, I just pulled up baseball if you're curious. Non Pitcher Mike Trout 2019 Al MVP played 134. Then you have to go kind of way back. Mike Schmidt, 81 NL only played 102. That's the fewest for any position player to win MVP. So he missed 60 games but never. That was a strike shortened season. So that has an asterisk there. Willie Stargell 1979 NL126 is, is another one of note in, you know, in the last 50 years.

[C]

Anyway, yeah, it's funny because Gary is now gone. I don't know what happened. He, he, we're gonna bring it back here. He's rejoined, he's back.

[A]

I started talking about baseball. Gary said I'm out. Trout was at 134 in 2019. I was saying Schmidt was only at 102 and 81. But it was a strike. 79, 126.

[C]

So.

[A]

But yeah, I mean you're, you're talking about a considerable number of games obviously.

[B]

Yeah, you know, that's 36 games that Starjill missed. That's a chunk. So the question is, do you lower the number of games? Do you make it no limit or minimum games? And then what do you do when some dude plays 51 games and has, you know, are we, are we okay with that?

[C]

Right?

[B]

Because what we're trying to do is shut people up and just have a nice system where people fairly can win the mvp. But there's always going to be some people complaining. People complain when they're, when, when load management and guys are winning lower number of games. We set the standard at 65. Now people are complaining. That's too many games. It's 17 games. Like that's a lot of games to miss, you know. But if a guy has 60 games, is that we lowered to 60, is that cool? Let's ask all the guys, let's, let's ask the guys who just come up with these crazy basketball opinions like Jason and J about Jason and Jaylen, analyze their friendship, their relationship, about what's the number of games it'll be, that'll be okay for you so we don't have to hear about this stuff anymore. Because I'm kind of tired. Like, this is why we did it. Load man. Everybody complained about low man. Remember that? Remember that? Yeah.

[C]

This has been my argument on. On Twitter has been you guys complain about load management forever. So they had to put this rule in it to get people to play games. So now you're upset about how many.

[B]

Never.

[C]

The point is we're always going to be upset about something. I mean, it's. It's just going to be that way. Everybody's gonna be pissed and whatever.

[B]

How did that guy win MVP? He only played 63 games. My guy played 80 like you. This is like. I mean. Yeah, you know. No, you're right.

[A]

You're right. And I. I wanted to. I wanted to ask you more about Chief. I wanted to ask you about the hierarchy of the eastern conferences. We come down the stretch, the Cade injury, all the. All this stuff that we could go on and on and on about. One more for two minutes and let's get you out of here. And that is. I know you're a college basketball fan. We're into March Madness. I was screaming this last year. I think it's even more prevalent this year. Like this. This year is kind of the. The reinforcement for me. And I'm just curious if you share the opinion. While there are a lot of benefits, particularly obviously to the athletes of nil of the transfer portal of this new era, that is very businesslike of college sports in general, but I'll make this about basketball ball. I feel like the downside is it's really. I'm not going to say killed or destroyed, but it's really hurt. March Madness Cinderella stories, I would say are probably a thing of the past at this point. We saw it with all the chalk last year. 41 seeds going to the Final Four. Not that I expect that to happen annually, but even this year, I mean, yesterday every favorite on the board won 16 0. Most of them covered. I think you know, already today as we sit here on Saturday, that's the case. I feel like this is going to be the theme going forward. And it's just.

[C]

Look it.

[A]

It just. For those of us that enjoy the purity of March Madness and one shining moment, and all of you know what it's been for decades at this point, it just sucks. It sucks. It's. I mean, by the end, you're going to get better basketball and you'll see the best players and all. Like that part is good, but at the same time, you know, see you later, Sister Jean, and see you later. Dunk you Know, Lob City and all this. Like it's Dunk City. Like it's, it's, it's over.

[B]

It.

[A]

It feels like the Cinderella stories of March Madness. Unless you want to count like a 14 going to the sweet 16 or something. But, you know, real Cinderella stories, you know, Elite eight, Final Four and beyond. Like, it feels like it's over.

[B]

Yeah, Adam. I mean, it's just, it's not the same. And we don't have the same loyalty and dedication to the players because they bounce around. These guys don't have a problem going to four schools in four years. They don't. Like the insane screwed itself. One, this is the, this is what I grew up on. You took a year off when you transferred.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Two, if you transfer within the conference, you took two years off that. None of that exists anymore. So you can literally play for your rival the next year. Where. What the hell is going on here? Like, that's what's killing college sports. The nil. Yeah. And guys now just going and saying, okay, I played here one year, now who's gonna pay me more? What's up? Like, they don't have the dedication that they used to. They don't care about going back to their alma mater and for reunions. And it's just like some of these guys are playing at four schools. So where. What, what reunion are you going to in 10 years? The one you. The school of your freshman year you signed with. The one the sophomore year, the junior year or the senior year or the kid, the fifth year. Now we got 26 year olds playing college ball.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, we got the old man. We got, we got old men playing college ball. And then that kills high schools. High school players aren't being recruited because everybody's trying to improve so fast in the transfer portal. So I get. It's all messed up. And I thought for a while we had an era where what all these guys were transferring and so the mid majors were bumping up the UMBCs, the Oaklands and the Fairfields, and for, sorry, Fairly Dickinson's and the St. Peter's because they were all veteran clubs and they were playing together. I don't know what's happened with that. Like, I don't know what's happened, but some of these schools just aren't as good as they used to be. Some of the mid majors don't produce. Like, you know, we loved we. I think everybody's trying to jump on the Miami of Ohio bandwagon and they, they got blown out by Tennessee the other day, you know, St. Mary's loses the Texas A and M, which was below average in the sec. You know, we don't. Gonzaga is kind of the point where they're a power.

[A]

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[B]

So it's good. You know, we got High Point playing that. They won. That was nice to see. That was kind of cool to see beat Wisconsin, but it's just different. You don't. You don't have loyalty. You don't. I mean, I'm sure those players laugh and go, y' all stayed in college for all four years the same play. You know, like, what the hell? Yeah, for free. They didn't give you no real money. Would you. What kind of car was you driving? You know, like, it's like. It's crazy. It's changed. We. For years, it was just. It was just evident. Like, the 65. We complained about the college not getting paid. Then we flipped it, and now they're G. Nino Brown and G money from New Jack City. You know, they got. They got. They got consortiums here. Like, what are we doing? Like, we. We. We let the. We. We. We let. It's out of control now. I think people were like, hey, we didn't mean, like, $8 million. We mean, like, a little check so you could go take your girlfriend out and. And have a night, you know, we didn't mean, like, generational living to play one year at LSU or Florida, Florida State and go 15 and 15. Like, is that what we're doing? But that's. Yes, that's what we're doing. Like, we don't. Like, you know, we have no idea. Like, I come from my college, Cal. Like, no, we don't have the Nil money like that.

[A]

So apparently, there's our school, Syracuse.

[C]

So.

[B]

Yeah, we're in our school. Yeah. I mean, you guys got it. Yeah. You guys got a lot. A lot of issues.

[C]

You know, first of all, you gotta steal gmac. I can't believe that happened yet.

[B]

My theory on gmac, like, I've never seen a guy who was a member of the 87 team and the 03 team he was at Syracuse for 17 years as a player. My goodness. I swear, I saw him with Stevie Thompson and Billy and. And those guys. 90s, too, in that 87 game. And then I swear I was like. He was. He was an 03 team, too. I think he was a senior. I think. I think that might have been his last year in Syracuse. Yeah, he was. Yeah. I mean, he was. He was like, every year, Jerry McNamara was in the back corner. Like, wait a minute, man.

[C]

The problem is they had guys that looked like Jerry McNamara. Yeah, so, like, Jerry McNamara turning to Eric Diefendorf and like Andy Routins, you

[B]

know, so let's be honest. Like, the benefit of bringing him back as a coach is he could probably a lobby for an eighth year and probably be a player coach.

[A]

Good news, Gary.

[B]

Yes, he could. He could apply for an eighth year and be the college basketball's first ever player coach. So, yeah, like that. That's why you need to bring them back. No, I thought he did a good job at Sienna. Yeah, they just got. I mean, he played five guys.

[C]

It was like a.

[B]

It was like a video game. It was like toward the end of the. That Duke game, like, all of his guys were just. That was sad, like how you have one bench guy that could give you 10 minutes. He was like, no, but. But, yeah. I mean, I come from a school like, you know, we lost Cal, loss Stojakovic, who's playing for Illinois, and we lost Wilkinson, a guy who's playing. Who played Georgia, who got just dumped by St. Louis. And then we filled our roster basically with nine new players. Next year, is anybody going to return? It's gonna be nine new guys. All vagabonds and carpetbaggers, are from their fourth school in four years, just trying to get a check. And maybe, like, that's. That. That. That takes the dedication and loyalty away because, you know, guys are not coming back. Like, Kyan Anthony is probably not coming back to Syracuse.

[C]

Hey, hey, hey, you watch that. We need. We need him. We need him. And Donnie Freeman.

[B]

I like Donnie Freeman. I don't know. And then, you know, and it doesn't help when your former coach says, well, the reason Autry got fired is his two best players were terrible, like, awful. Oh, my God. Like, that's why Bayheimer is getting paid to be on tv, because he doesn't care anymore, which I think is pretty amazing. I think it's funny.

[C]

He hasn't been caring for a long time, Gary. I'll tell you that right now. That's not new.

[B]

It doesn't help. It doesn't help when your two best players have terrible seasons. Doesn't he just say that on the air? So yeah, I, I think we want to get hype about March Madness and hopefully trends back in the right direction where we can, you know, we're a 12 pizza five and a 13 beats of four every year. But you know, it's, it's, it's kind of, you know, yesterday was kind of boring. And the women's game, the women's tournament is even more boring. I mean you just go one to eight, you're gonna win. All winners. You know, you might have a 7 10B to 7 maybe here and there, but it's unfortunately like the, the, the haves and the have nots and, and the mid majors. Unless you get a really quality veteran team and maybe a couple of fringe NBA guys who know how to shoot and play well. Like you're not going to have the George Masons and you're not going to have these teams get to the Elite eight or the Final Four anymore. I said I just think we saw, I thought Miami Ohio could make a run and then you know, 10 minutes in you're like, wow. Yeah, they're, they're a good team who played a bunch of other guys like them and we'll see what happens with like a high point, whether they can, they can push it.

[A]

Gary Washburn once again from the Boston Globe, part of the clns family here with the Big three NBA podcast. Check that out with Quani and Sharad. Evan Valenti, Adam Kaufman, always fun to be with you here for Celtics beat again. The SEAS will be starting a three game home stand as mentioned as they try. I mean they're probably running out of time realistically given the tiebreaker situation, but try to climb into that number one spot in the Eastern Conference down the stretch here. Back four games of the Pistons who do not have Cade Cunningham for the foreseeable future but should be back for the postseason according to the reports that are out there. But the Celtics back at it Sunday at home primetime game on NBC and Peacock against the Timberwolves. And then it's the Thunder, surprisingly not nationally televised and then the Hawks to set them up for then a four game trip after that. But Gary, always appreciate the time. You always are very gracious with your time and always fun conversation as well. We'll do it again before the postseason rolls around.

[B]

Sounds good. Thanks a lot guys.

[A]

Again, Gary, Evan, Adam, thanks for checking us out. Check out The CLNS Media YouTube page, the all access page, the main page, you'll find a whole bunch of clips across great Celtics content, including our two shows as well. We'll see you next time.

[B]

Hey, Sal.

[C]

Hank.

[A]

What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years.

[B]

I just bought my car at Carvana, and it was so easy. Too easy.

[A]

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[A]

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[C]

Car, Hank.

[B]

Yeah, you're right. Case closed.

[A]

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