675: Celtics Lacked Athleticism in Sixers Series w/ Gary Washburn

Summary

Celtics Beat, Ep. 675: Celtics Lacked Athleticism in Sixers Series

Host: Adam Kaufman
Guests: Gary Washburn (Boston Globe), Evan Valenti
Date: May 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the Boston Celtics’ collapse against the Philadelphia 76ers, blowing a 3–1 series lead in the first round of the playoffs. Adam Kaufman, Evan Valenti, and guest Gary Washburn analyze where things went wrong, particularly focusing on a lack of athleticism, team construction, and future directions for the Celtics. Major themes include Brad Stevens’ candid postseason comments, roster needs, the “Jays” (Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown) dynamic, and the future of coach Joe Mazzulla.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Fallout: A Disastrous End to a Promising Season

• Expectations vs. Reality
  • Celtics exceeded preseason expectations with a 56-win regular season, despite questions after major roster cuts and Tatum's injury.
  • The Sixers series loss, especially after blowing a 3–1 lead, shifts the narrative from successful overachievement to unacceptable failure.
  • “It’s not pleasant. This stinks.” — Adam Kaufman (03:33)
• Fan Disappointment
  • Many expected, at minimum, a Celtics-Knicks showdown. Losing to Philly changed the discourse to ‘major changes are needed.’

Brad Stevens' Postmortem: Honesty About Team Flaws

• Athleticism Deficit

  • Washburn highlights Brad’s blunt assessment: the team was not athletic enough, especially compared to Philadelphia’s backcourt (Maxey, Edgecombe).
    • “Who’s the best athlete on the Celtics? …If your best athlete is Jordan [Walsh] or Jaylen [Brown], then you need better athletes…” — Gary Washburn (11:34)
  • The Celtics struggled to keep up, couldn’t contain Philly’s guards, and lacked shot-blockers and players who play above the rim.

• Offensive Rebounds & First Shot Offense

  • Boston's success in the regular season came from offensive rebounding and multiple shot opportunities.
  • In the playoffs, their “first shot offense” faltered; when not dominating the glass, their lack of efficient scoring was exposed.

• Over-reliance on Threes

  • “Maybe you get off this three-point thing… especially when you don’t have elite shooters.” — Gary Washburn (05:43)
  • Top teams by three-point attempts are mostly lottery teams, highlighting a flawed approach with the current Celtics roster.
  • “If you’re going to play this three-point offense, you gotta have elite shooters, and they don’t have elite shooters.” — Gary Washburn (36:01)

Roster Needs Moving Forward

• Key Positions to Address

  1. Point guard: Need someone to organize the offense, break down defenses, and create easier looks for Tatum and Brown.
  2. Athletic Wing: More explosive, versatile athletes who can defend, finish, and play above the rim.
  3. Center: Upgrade from fringe bigs; need a real post presence—Kadà can’t stay on the floor.
  4. Veteran “enforcer”: Need an outspoken leader and tone-setter since Marcus Smart’s departure. “You need an MF in that locker room.” — Gary Washburn (19:23)

• Potential Targets & Strategies

  • Suggestion to bring back Anfernee Simons for bench scoring; bring in a veteran like Bobby Portis as an enforcer.
  • Dilemma between spending big for a superstar or upgrading the supporting cast in aggregate.

The “Jays”: Jayson Tatum & Jaylen Brown

• Should the Jays Be Split?

  • Consensus is to keep both unless a truly transformational player (e.g., Giannis) becomes available.
  • “You don’t trade a player who just had his best career year. Why?” — Gary Washburn (29:10)
  • Trading Brown almost certainly means he’s the best player in the deal, risking a return that weakens overall team talent.

• Respect, Roles, and Internal Politics

  • Jaylen Brown wants greater respect—from fans, the national audience, and internally.
    • “He carries the world on his shoulders… he has to understand that the fan base is just as disappointed as him.” — Gary Washburn (44:09)
  • Moments of perceived disrespect (e.g., introductions order, contract negotiations) could impact Brown’s willingness to commit long-term.
  • Cautionary tales invoked: Kyrie Irving, Bryce Harper, Kevin Durant—all greats who found greener pastures weren’t always so green.

• Contract & Cap Management

  • Extensions, supermaxes, and future salary cap implications discussed. Flexibility will be crucial for further team-building.
  • “Can you have two $70 million guys on a $220 million cap?” — Gary Washburn (39:42)

Assessing Joe Mazzulla’s Future

• Coaching Critique

  • Joe has been outcoached in three consecutive playoffs (Spoelstra, Thibodeau, Nurse).
    • “I think Joe has to review his postseason performances because he’s been outcoached by Spoh and Tibs and now Nick Nurse.” — Gary Washburn (68:01)
  • Needs to be more flexible, potentially add veteran assistants, and develop non-three-point heavy offensive schemes that maximize his stars’ strengths.

• Internal Dynamics

  • Questioning whether Mazzulla’s staff challenges him enough; suggestion that offensive “coordinator” type is needed.
  • “As much as the players need to improve, so does Joe. And I think that’s what Brad said. We all need to improve.” — Gary Washburn (72:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Boston’s Roster Deficiency:
  “They need dudes who jump out of the gym. They need guys who are shot blockers. They need to get more athletic.” — Gary Washburn (12:20)

• On Three-Point Dependence:
  “Three of the top 12 teams in three-point attempts were left in the playoffs—a bunch of lottery teams were in that top 12… Is this still working?” — Gary Washburn (36:01)

• On Player Retention vs. Team Building:
  “You have two guys that are going to have their numbers retired at the Garden… Why are you going to trade one?” — Gary Washburn (29:10)

• On Jaylen Brown’s Mentality:
  “He carries the world on his shoulders… he has to understand that the fan base is just as disappointed as him.” — Gary Washburn (44:09)

• On Coaching Changes:
  “They need someone who can just say, ‘OK Joe, this is what we should do,’ that he respects. Because I think the coaching staff right now, there’s a bunch of young guys who are just doing their damn jobs.” — Gary Washburn (71:15)

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Timestamped Highlights

• 03:33 — Adam & Evan describe raw disappointment after the Sixers loss.
• 06:07 — Adam outlines dichotomy between regular season overachievement and postseason letdown.
• 10:12 — Gary highlights Brad Stevens admitting lack of athleticism.
• 11:34 — “Who’s the best athlete on the Celtics?” conversation; consensus that it’s a role player, not a star.
• 14:38 — Gary’s blueprint: Get a point guard, athletic wing, center, and an enforcer-type vet.
• 18:18 — “They need an MF in that locker room.” — Washburn on team personality.
• 29:10 — Discussion on whether to break up Tatum/Brown; strong case for keeping both.
• 36:01 — Deep dive into three-point shooting philosophy and league trends.
• 44:09 — Washburn on Jaylen Brown’s search for respect and place in Celtics/league hierarchy.
• 68:01 — Evaluating Joe Mazzulla’s playoff coaching and staff structure.

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Takeaway: Where Do the Celtics Go From Here?

• Celtics face a turning point—a season full of positives ended in brutal fashion, exposing structural issues, lack of athleticism, and questionable strategic choices.
• Brad Stevens’ candor promises an offseason intent on change: expect moves for athleticism, new veteran leadership, and possible philosophical shifts away from an overreliance on threes.
• The “Jays” remain the core, unless an irresistible superstar becomes available, but contract negotiations and respect will loom large.
• Joe Mazzulla is not on the firing line, but needs to adapt, seek more input, and change postseason approaches to maximize the team’s window.
• The offseason will be urgent, noisy, and—perhaps—transformative for the franchise.

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Listen for the full episode to hear more Celtics therapy and speculation as Boston enters a pivotal offseason.

Transcript

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[Evan Valenti]

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Learn more at Go Amex Graphite. Today is Friday, May 8, and this is Celtics Beat on CLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of the Boston Celtics. I'm Adam Kaufman. Episode 675 features the Boston Globes, Gary Washburn.

[Evan Valenti]

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[Adam Kaufman]

Okay, well, I suppose we have to do this. We've been putting it off long enough, allowing all our competition out there here with Celtics Beat get their words in first. Really what we've been doing though is just kind of letting everything pile up. Jalen, he can't stop stop streaming. Brad, he spoke with the media and the Sixers look like they're going to get destroyed by the Knicks. Everything's great. Everything is just absolutely wonderful here in a Celtics universe. It is Celtics beat CLNS Media. We remind you, check out the all access page on YouTube. You will find us and a whole lot of other great Celtics content, including the Big three podcast, which of course Is co hosted by our guest today, Gary Washburn, last longtime columnist of the Boston Globe. Adam Kaufman and Valenti, we are here with you for the next however long it takes to get everything out of our systems. Gary, this sucks. This is not fun. This is not enjoyable. I know we're spoiled around here with it. It feels like the, you know, our buddy Brian Barrett often refers to it as the. The Celtics Invitational. Going to the Eastern conference finals. And they come well short this year after blowing a 31 first round series lead to the Sixers. And now it's all eyes on the future. We are not obviously going to break down the series against the Sixers. We've done that along the way. Everyone else has done that. It's all about moving forward and reacting to what we got going on. But what we got going on mainly is this stinks.

[Evan Valenti]

This is, this, this is not pleasant.

[Gary Washburn]

Oh, you want me to add to that? Yeah, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Kaufman]

Fire it up.

[Evan Valenti]

Oh.

[Gary Washburn]

I think that the fans were obviously anticipating the Celtics Knicks rematch. That even though this team was probably not championship caliber, even with Jason back, I think people expected that they were gonna, you know, go head to head with the Knicks and essentially, if they, even if they lost, I felt like folks would have been like, you know, what, you know, know, add a couple of pieces here and there, improve the roster. But hey, they went as far as they could. They lost to a Knicks team that's playing very well. That's whole. Jason's still not quite himself. You know, they're going off a roster that was basically reshaped and cut back to. To meet salary cap requirements. And so they're not playing with a full deck. But losing a 31 lead now leaves everything to kind of like, okay, now major changes are. Are needed. And what the hell happened against Philly and how come you couldn't beat a team that went 45 and 37 the regular season? And how come Paul George looked like he did 10 years ago and how come you couldn't stop Tyrese Maxey and how come Joel Embiid you acted like you never faced them, even though you faced them, you know, countless times over the last 10 years and you just struggled with that matchup altogether and likely didn't expect that he was going to play in this series. So everything's up to question. The only silver lining, guys, I think, is that, you know what, maybe you do this a year earlier than you probably would have. If, if this happens next year or the year after, you start to rebuild and take advantage and Capitalize on Jason and Jalen's window. You make some changes that are probably needed. You probably get off this three point thing that I think we have seen. If you look at the numbers and the teams that are shooting threes, it's some of the teams that are in the lottery. And so the success for the three pointer, especially when you don't have elite shooters, is probably going to need to change. And so maybe in the silver lining, the long run, especially if they come back next year and win, it will be, hey, this was probably good for, for the Celtics and I think best I could do.

[Adam Kaufman]

No, I mean, look, I, I think I, I think the picture that you painted in part anyway is just the dichotomy of the season or, or as Joe Missoula would say, the, the duality of the year in the sense that, you know, the Patriots wildly overachieve. They got thrashed in the playoffs, but it was the Super Bowl. This team, we go into the year and it's. Look, we have preseason conversations with you. Is this a 45 win team? Is this a 25 win team? Where do they stack up? Well, oh, by the way, they win 56, they get Jason Tatum back. I know he wasn't out there in game seven. It's wild that anyone out there is criticizing that, by the way. But we can save that for later if we have time. You overachieve wildly in the regular season. I mean you had an incredible regular season. That is an unmitigated success. But then you get to the playoffs and again you're up 3:1. I don't care who you are, I don't care if you're the underdog. If you're up 3:1 in the playoff series, no matter the round, you just should win. And obviously the percentages say as much as well, even though we've had a couple of them in this playoff run with the Pistons coming back as well. But generally speaking that just shouldn't happen. You shouldn't go out and pull the Doc river special and blow the 3 1. You move on is what happens. And so now all of a sudden it's a failure. You need major changes, all these things. But I think. And ev. I'll let you pick it up and then obviously we get back to Gary here. But the. Of all the things. And I think there were a lot of interesting things that Brad Stevens said earlier this week. One, if you just kind of. Not that you really have to read between the lines with Brad. He's a straight shooter and he leaves you Breadcrumbs. And he generally tells you how it is versus, say, Danny Ainge beforehand, he had a different style. But one thing that I think Brad was maybe a little more subtle about is that I think he acknowledges, hey, maybe this team actually wasn't particularly good. And yeah, we did wildly overachieve and we kind of finished about where we probably should have, even if we're not satisfied.

[Evan Valenti]

Well, if you go back again, expectations change as the season progresses. But as you said, like if you took clips from our, you know, offseason shows from last year, the idea was, you know, they'll probably make the playoffs and they'll probably get waxed in the first round by somebody that's better than them and that'll be okay because that's just the way this is going to go. Obviously, expectations change as the season changes and what was where you thought you'd be ends up becoming a giant disappointment for this team. And to be frank, like blowing a 31 lead, especially as the higher seed, as a 2 seed, is embarrassing. It's embarrassing. It's not the way you want to go out, especially after a season of so many highs. But this is where we're at at this point when it comes to this team. And you, and you look at what Brad said, again, as you and I have talked about, he is a guy that kind of tells you some stuff if you really are paying attention. You know, you talk about the three pointers. Well, we took a lot of bad ones. Well, that's, that's pretty evident, right? That's pretty evident with this crew. We didn't have enough rim presence. The one thing that I really, that stuck out to me, Gary, I don't know about you, he hated their first shot offense. They weren't getting open looks with their first shots. And throughout the regular season they could get away with that because they were get crashing the glass and collecting offensive rebounds. But when you're in the playoffs and everybody's kind of doing that, they, that was the thing. If you go back and look at the, the Sixers and Celtics series throughout the regular season, the big numbers that stuck out when, when Boston won because they, there were some narrow losses and I think they lost by one, lost by two. But if you look at they had one big win, I think it was the K game where he had 20 points and like 18 rebounds or something like that, they killed Philly on the glass and that was not the case in these games. So if you're not dominating the rebound margin, you, you're not Turning the Sixers over at all, and you're only getting one shot and they're not going in, you're going to lose. So I think amongst all the things that Brad said, the thing that I thought was the most interesting was our first shot offense wasn't up to par, and that's what killed him. Gary, what stuck out to you about Brad's comments?

[Gary Washburn]

Yeah, that he was very honest about, basically that they lacked athleticism, which I think is the case because I said this on the Big Three podcast. I asked you guys, who's the best athlete on the Celtics?

[Evan Valenti]

Jordan Walsh.

[Adam Kaufman]

God. Best athlete on the Celtics. Yeah, I mean, it's not one of their better players. It's one of the role guys.

[Evan Valenti]

But, like, I mean, Jalen isn't throwing down dunks like he used to when he was in his young 20s. He's. He's taking layups, which is fine. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Young Jalen was an incredible athlete, but I think it's one of the younger guys.

[Adam Kaufman]

Yeah, it might be Walsh. I might have said Minot earlier this year.

[Gary Washburn]

Okay, so that's my point. I don't think Walsh is like an elite athlete. I think he's a solid athlete. So Jordan Walsh is your best athlete. You need more athletes. And I think that that was the one thing that Brad said, because if you look at Maxi, they couldn't. They haven't been able to guard Maxi since the entered the league. Edgecomb. Edgecomb is fast as hell with the ball. So those. That's your back court. And then, you know, George is a respectable athlete. Guy's not what he once was, but was able to get to his spots and able to stop Jalen for getting to his spots.

[Evan Valenti]

That's pretty good to me. I don't know, pretty good to me out there.

[Gary Washburn]

Grimes, Ubere, like, you got guys that are not world class, but you got enough athletes out there. So the Celtics, if your best athlete is Jordan or Jaylen, then you need better athletes because Jaylen, as you said, Evan, is third, almost 30. He has become more of a craftier scorer using his strength, his bulk, his strength in terms of strength and bulk. Using more moves as opposed to driving, blowing past guys, just getting to the rack or that first step. He's. He's not that guy. So I thought the open eye opening thing was Brad saying we need to get it more athletic. And that means probably an overhaul of some guys that we like that are probably headed out because they need to get more athletic. They need dudes who jump out of the gym. They need guys who are shot blockers. They need to get more athletic. I thought that was the one thing. The second thing, as you said, having the first shot offense, I'm sure him, him and Joe might disagree on that because Joe seemed to be content with the offense. But against Philadelphia and throughout the season, I think the biggest difference was during the regular season they were catching teams who weren't playing hard because they're the, are the harder playing team. And, and the Philadelphia series, once Philadelphia got momentum, they became the harder playing team. And that was especially in game six when Joe had to pull the starters with 10:24 left and throw in like it's a closeout game and you guys are giving up with 10 minutes left and because Philadelphia is running you out of the gym, like that's a problem. So, so, and that's the playoff basketball. Every team, everybody's playing hard. Like even guys who don't generally play hard all the time are playing hard, right? Because they save it. So I thought Brad's assessment of the lack of athleticism, the assessment of like the three point shooting and just also the lack of cohesion in the offense were two were all eye openers at

[Adam Kaufman]

the end of, well, a few years ago at this point before they win the championship, when they go out and they acquire Kristaps Porzingis and Drew Holiday. Brad had told us point blank in the previous end of season presser and leading into those moves, not specifically the guys he was going to go out and get, but exactly what he was looking for obviously in terms of trades and sure enough delivered in those two guys who as we know helped him get to Banner 18. What do you believe that Brad, outside of getting more athletic, what do you feel like he outlined here in this presser that fans should expect to see him in some form bring in. And we can get to the different ways that he could go about doing that financially, but in terms of the caliber, quality, specific type of player and if you have any names in mind, certainly three guy.

[Gary Washburn]

Three, three guy. Three positions. One, a point guard. Like you need a point guard to get you into your offense. You need a point guard that's going to hit a jumper. You need somebody who can beat someone off the dribble, create some type of mismatch and then toss it to Jason or Jalen. You've got to have somebody that makes Jason and Jalen's life easier. Okay, Like I think the whole like, hey, just let Jason go at him. Like that's not going to work anymore. Hey, let Jason Jalen go at him like they can score. But I think as we saw the one on one stuff with Jaylen a lot of times was offensive fouls, missed shots, four shots make their lives easier. Secondly, I think you need an athletic wing. They gave way one away with Josh Minot. I still don't understand why they just handed him to the Brooklyn Nets. I thought he was okay. I thought he had potential and I think a center, I think we've seen that the, the Cada stuff is great. It's a nice story. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a good after school special. If you guys remember those however, don't do drugs. F. Yeah, but he's not a frontline NBA starter because he can't stay on the floor. And do you wait till he becomes more mature to stay on the floor or do you make him a backup to where you give him pick? He picks, you pick spots for him to be impactful. And I think that that's what the Celtics have to determine like because he couldn't stay on the floor and there's too many silly fouls, backcourt fouls, loose ball fouls, fouls where his footworker, his position is wrong, where he jumps up in a bad angle, fouls a guy who shouldn't get fouled. You know, u goes for a play, hey, just let him score and nope, you make it, you turn, you turn into an and one. And so I think those are the three positions now. I think they should bring Anthony Simons back. I think that although he's makes 20, he's coming off a 27 million dollar a year contract. I don't think he's going to get that on the open market. So you hand him that mid level at 15 in multi years or if you want to, if he says hey I want a one year deal and I want to, I want something, I want to bet on myself. You bring him back because you need more points off the bench. You just can't depend on Peyton. Like you can't and Peyton's great, but he's their only points off the bench. Unless you're going to depend on Baylor, right? And Baylor's become a better scorer. But Jordan and Ugo, I mean those guys are taking huge threes in game seven. Like no, no, not, not now. It's not their time yet. Maybe for Jordan it won't be his time in Boston. Like I don't know if Jordan's a player you're like, yeah, he's going to be part of what we do for the future. Ugo and Baylor. Yeah. Jordan, do you say it's been great, Jordan, you've developed but we need somebody who's three levels are higher than what you have now in order to win a championship. You know, like do you say that? So to me I think they've got a, like I don't think they need to bring, you know, let's bring in Giannis. No, I think they need, but they need guys who could hoop and they need a, they need a, they need a veteran like a guy like Bobby Portis. To me. Like, they need a dude who can hold guys accountable like and they need guys that, getting that. They need an enforcer on the floor. Who's there? Enforcer on the floor after Marcus.

[Evan Valenti]

Who's there for nobody.

[Gary Washburn]

Who's gonna get somebody's face who's gonna say hey man, don't, don't foul him like that no more. No more hard fouls like that. Like who's gonna start something?

[Evan Valenti]

I mean Jalen likes to get into it a little bit, but he's not, you know, I don't think, I don't

[Gary Washburn]

think your star player can be that guy.

[Evan Valenti]

Can Joe be that guy? Because Joe, Joe's all about that life. He'll.

[Gary Washburn]

You don't have like, that's the one thing Marcus brought was grit, leadership, getting in guys faces. Hold them accountable. Like to me they don't have that guy.

[Evan Valenti]

Right?

[Gary Washburn]

They need that guy. They need a vet. Like I. Portis is a guy like you don't back down. He'll fight, he'll, you know, we asked, you know Nicola Mergotic that he punched in Chicago years ago. Like ask him. Yeah, yeah. So to me those are the four things they need. I do think they need a vet. They've got to get older in terms of like the locker room needs to get. There's a bunch of nice guys in there. You need an MF in that locker room.

[Adam Kaufman]

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[Evan Valenti]

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[Gary Washburn]

Either way.

[Evan Valenti]

The more the less. Right. You're going to pick one right as the game starts and see what happens. Now Kaufman, we have been playing head to head. We have a couple weeks the prize picks. I'm up by one leg of the lineup, so to speak. So still a tight race.

[Adam Kaufman]

What, what's, what's our score? Do you know it off the top of your head?

[Evan Valenti]

I'm, I'm up right now four to six. You're, you're three for six. So it's really, really tight. It's still very very close. But I gotta tell you buddy, the winner I think of this week will go on to face one of the Garden report gentlemen.

[Adam Kaufman]

So just stop that. Okay, here we go.

[Evan Valenti]

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[Adam Kaufman]

I haven't I thought about, I thought about going with the Friday games but I unlike you, you selfish guy. I am going to give the listeners a little bit more time.

[Evan Valenti]

Sure.

[Adam Kaufman]

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[Evan Valenti]

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[Adam Kaufman]

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[Evan Valenti]

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[Adam Kaufman]

Let's get back to the show. We're back here with Gary and let's look some people the various capologists at one degree or another putting out specifics as to what the Celtics financially can do this off season and unfortunately we have several months to talk about this. Gary, you've started writing about it as well in terms of obviously the exceptions that are available. You brought up for instance the non tax mid level at 15. There's clearly the trade exception they have worth almost 28 million that you can bring a guy into and, you know, get a real serviceable player. Now, 28 million isn't what it once was in the NBA. You know, I remind people that we're talking about, you know, stars making 60, 70 million dollars. So, you know, 2830 is still kind of in that range of like a, you know, good player but not necessarily a great player. You also have 8.2, 4.7, two and a half, 2.3 veteran minimum. You have first round pick 27. Barring a move, number 40 is out there as well. For their second round pick, they are at $188 million. I'm reading from Bobby Marks here. Luxury tax is 201, the first April 209. So again, they got below the tax thresholds, they got below the luxury tax. They did all the stuff they had to do last offseason and throughout this year to get to where they wanted to be financially and just basically reset everything. A lot of the conversation right now is about how do you build to Banner 19 and how do you make that happen? As we're talking about next year, you're talking about more operating on the margins and improving depth areas, whereas your core continues to be Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Derrick White, Peyton Pritchard, whatever you bring in from there. There are many that are, especially in the wake of recent streams by Jaylen Brown and comments by his mentor Tracy McGrady, and just people, you know, inferring on their own and take what you will from any of that stuff. But I think more people are more open than ever to the idea of dealing Jalen Brown. There are plenty of people that have been open to it for years, dating back to, you know, Kawhi Leonard rumors and Anthony Davis rumors and, and you name it. But, you know, now even the most ardent, like me, for instance, not, I won't speak for ev, but I've been someone who's been like, you can't split up the Jays. You cannot. They, they can win together. They will win together. Ultimately, they did. And they have won the regular season at about the highest level possible over the course of the time that they have been together. I am now more open to the idea to where I will at least say you have one untouchable on this roster. That is Jason Tatum. That's it. Everything else, you're listening. Maybe you're even initiating some of those calls. We don't know as we sit here who's going to be available this off season. Everyone expects Giannis to be traded. Kevin Durant could be on the move maybe if the Cavs flame out. Evan Mobley is on the move. There are different, bigger name players, you know, guys that are various stages of their careers, you know, including all three that I just mentioned are all at very different stages of their careers that the Celtics could go out and pursue to pair with Jason Tatum. But there are also versions of a deal that could happen. This is where I've gotten some pushback on social media to where, you know, go all Billy Bean and Moneyball. You're improving in the aggregate, right? You know, you have to, people have to. The royal. We. Everyone has to realize that if you are trading Jalen Brown, be aware that more than likely he is the best player moving in that deal. Now you may be bringing back multiple players where one is an all star level, but not at Brown's level and another one is more of a help you on the fringes level. And you're getting multiple guys that can help you versus the one, but you're getting multiple guys depth, if you will, that are not on Jaylen Brown's level to try and reset this thing to not go, you know, 70% of the cap toward two players. Unless again, it's. It's a Giannis or somebody like that, you're trying to build and win in a different way. If you're putting on your GM hat, what do you think makes the most sense? Never mind what could be available, what could happen? What do you think makes the most sense? Is it abandoning ship on the Jays when this is clearly it's always going to be Jayson Tatum's team. Jalen Brown just has to deal with that. If he's going to be here, he can't be the man, it can't be his team. Or do you need to improve around Tatum in ways that they've been kind of top heavy thus far?

[Gary Washburn]

Yeah, I think that you don't break up the Jays. I just don't see why you would. And you don't trade a player who just had his best career year. You just. Why? Okay, Giannis is interesting, but are the Bucks looking forward to starting their new era under Taylor Jenkins with Jaylen Brown as your centerpiece? And then is is Celtic draft picks enough to like entice the Bucks to make a deal? Because the Bucks are going to want a heavy return for Giannis. Fifty years ago they traded Kareem Abdul Jabbar to the Lakers. How did that turn out for the Lakers? Right, and the Bucks won absolutely nothing. And Although they had some good teams with like the, the Sydney Monkrease and the Marcus Johnson's in, in the 80s, they didn't come back and win another title till 2021. So I think that you understand, like you said, Adam Jalen would probably be the best player in any deal. Is it worth it to send him somewhere for two players who can help you now? What kind of players are you talking about? How are they going to blend in with Jason? I think you've got two guys that are going to have their numbers retired at the Garden. Why are you going to trade one? Like how did it work out with the Sox trading Wookie bets? How did that work out for the Sox?

[Evan Valenti]

I don't watch baseball anymore for that reason.

[Gary Washburn]

Yeah, no, but.

[Adam Kaufman]

And look, this is comparison. You know what I mean?

[Gary Washburn]

Yeah, yeah. They trade him during. You know, you're right about the Nomar thing. But I also think in no more never got his number retired. No mars kind of Persona non grata in Boston. He works for the Dodgers. So to me, I just think you, you consider the legacy. You consider that neither of them is still 30 yet. Okay, like you're not trading somebody on the back nine. You have a window of three to four years left for this group, for this crew duo now. Well, you need to make tough decisions at when they're 35. Like Ainge had to do with Pierce and Garnett. Yep, that's coming. But unless you get a talent, a guy who's going to come in there and just be an all star himself or like, I just don't think you do it. And I don't think the trade market these days just works out that way anymore. You just don't get. You don't get guys to come in unless, you know, the last one that it really worked out that way was Paul George to the Clippers for sga Right. Who was coming off his rookie year and turned into a generational talent. Now if the Clippers had known that SGA was going to turn into SGA because back then he was just Shay Gill Alexander, they would hell no hell way in hell they make that trade. But they made it. And they added a bunch of draft picks and as insult to injury, including one that's going to be used in next month's draft, even though the damn trade was seven years ago. So. So you better hit on a Jaylen trade if you're going to do that. If not, you build around your two cornerstones. They've proven they can win together. But what you have to do is accentuate their strengths. Jason, stop taking as many threes, get to the rim, post up, get to the mid range. Your money, that's where your money is. Get to the free throw line. Jalen, no more one on one or one on five. No more, you know, put them in positions. Hey, as I said on the big Three podcast, it's okay for one of them to cut to the basket for backdoor plays. It's okay for one of them to take the double and pass out to an open shooter. Like, there's ways offensively you can accentuate the strengths of both of them to where this could work out long term.

[Adam Kaufman]

A lot of people, real quick, Gary, believe in, in what you're saying, and they immediately point at Joe and say they have a Joe Missoula problem or they have an organ, organizational, philosophical problem. What I wonder, the more I watch these guys is if they got a talent problem. That doesn't mean I want them gone or traded. You can't build around them, but there, it feels like. Like Jalen's not being coached to, to drive into traffic and turn the ball over in the way that you're talking about. Like, I think there's. There's an element of stubbornness, of pigheadedness in the way that these two do occasionally play together. I mean, do you, do you see it differently?

[Gary Washburn]

No, I see that both of them feel like they have the talent. Jason wants to prove that he's. He's an elite three point shooter, and it's. He's not. He shot 34% last year, 32% in his short stint in the 16 games this season, and he shot 36 in the Philly series. But he was 4 for 12. And 12 is too many. That's too many. You're not Steph. So I think both of them sometimes, sometimes get offensively undisciplined, and I think the Celtics rely too much on Hauser. They rely too much, like, on guys who aren't getting it done. Hauser, if he's not knocking down threes, why is he on the floor? He doesn't hit twos. He doesn't get to the line. He just. He's not a great defender. Okay. He's not a great rebounder. Derrick White, I don't know what to do with Derrick White. I think. I think Derek is beloved in Boston, but he's coming off a really bad year, and he's coming off a bad playoff. Even Game 7, where he had 19 points at halftime and then came back, went 1 for 7 in the third quarter and missed some key threes down the stretch.

[Adam Kaufman]

You think he had a bad year or a bad shooting year?

[Gary Washburn]

No, I think a bad shooting year. I think defensively I voted him first team on defense. But if he's the guy who's got to be the number three scorer, your number three score can't be like. I think they put a lot on Peyton's plate and Peyton will cook you, but I think sometimes it's too much on Peyton's plate, like he needs another score, which I think could be Simons with Derek. If you're gonna play with two guys or a ball dominant or get doubles, you gotta hit the open shot. He's got a big burn. Defenses Hower. How many times this year is Hower literally missed open threes, dead open threes. Like it's been too much.

[Adam Kaufman]

He's not back anyway then, then he

[Gary Washburn]

comes back and he'll go, you know, five for six and he'll entice the fans. Okay, Sam is back. Then he'll come back and go 1 for 8 with wide open looks. I don't know. And you, if you're going to play this three point offense, you got to have elite shooters and they don't have elite shooters. And what I looked up just now working on my Sunday story, the top 12 teams in three point attempts this year, three are left in the playoffs. The top three point shooting team this year was the Golden State Warriors. Number two was Charlotte, number three was Portland. Like the best teams are shooting a load of threes anymore. Oklahoma City and San Antonio were in. The Knicks were both, I think 12, 13, 14 the net. The Celtics were eight. Right. And sorry, a percentage in attempts. I think the Celtics were fourth.

[Evan Valenti]

I want to say surprise, somebody beat them. I like, I can't even believe there's three teams above them in that category because it's like if it were Charlotte, if it's Charlotte, then I get it.

[Gary Washburn]

But like fourth this year, fourth this year, sorry. In the temps an eighth percentage. Okay. Right. And in attempts I said three of the teams are remain in the playoffs. A bunch of, a bunch of lottery teams were in that top 12 of attempts. So is this still working? If you look at okc, you look at the Knicks, you look at how the Knicks are beating the Sixers, it's not with threes. So I think the Celtics are going to have to change some styles. Gonna have to adjust and they're gonna have to figure out how to accentuate the strengths of Jason and Jaylen.

[Evan Valenti]

I, I Want to go back to this conversation because I have a, A play off that. But I, I was. You know, I love watching Brian Winhorse. I find him very entertaining. He did kind of the fingers in the air thing a little bit a couple days ago where he's watching because Jalen is extension eligible. Eligible this summer. And he said, look, here's the deal. They have to want him to offer the exception, and he's going to want it to take the exception. The. The extension. Excuse me. I'm watching this to see what happens. Are you watching it with what feels like the same excitement or interest that Brian Winhorse is watching this extension possibility?

[Gary Washburn]

That's interesting. 70 million is a lot. I mean, that's as. As much as a lot of guys make in the league. Like, that's gonna be like, you know, I don't know if j. If Jalen is a. Literally a. Feels like if you don't offer me two and 140, I'm insulted. Like, I don't know if he comes with. I need 70 million a year. Yeah, like, he's. They already made him the highest paid player in the game a few years ago. Like, do you negotiate? Do you go to jail and go, listen, if we want to win, we can't pay you and Jason each 70 million. Like, we got to pay both of y' all 60? And does Jayla go, okay? Or does he say, as long as you pay Jason, they're about the same, I'm good. But if you offer Jason 70, I have a problem. I don't know. Right? But that's a lot of money to pay and to limit your flexibility for a guy that's gonna be like 33, 34 when he probably earns that money. But that's what you have to do. But when you, what you do with guys that are superstars, if you want to continue to win, Jordan, Steph Curry, LeBron, you negotiate with them and you say, listen, we. We've got to have flexibility. So that extra 10 million, we could use it for this. Like, we're going to try to win. We're not going to use the money. We don't pay you to, you know, we're not going to use a 10 million. We don't pay you to give, you know, better suites to the fan to, To. To the season ticket holders so we make more money. Like, that's not where this is going. This is going toward salaries for other players so we can continue to win championships. Because we can't have two 70 million guy dollar guys on a cap, that's 220 million. So you've got two guys making 140 and the other 14 making 80. Like, I would think Jaylen would understand that. But I'm sure Jason's going to have to have a talk to. And you're gonna have to ask them how long do you want to be here? Or do you want to take someone else's 70 million and maybe not win a championship, but you've made more money? Or do you want to stay here and win championships or continue to go for championships, get your number retired and retire at Celtic? That's a tough decision for Jalen, for Jason, for anybody in that position. And that's become our reality because NBA salaries have escalated so much.

[Adam Kaufman]

Well, look, he can retire a Celtic. Paul Pierce retired a Celtic, you know, but the whole Kobe, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, play your whole career in one uniform thing, it just, it. I'm not saying, like, it'll never happen again. Jokic may do it, you know, who knows? And maybe these guys will do it. It's an era where it's just. And this is not a knock on Tatum, Brown or anybody else. I believe it when I see it. You know, it just doesn't. We're not in an era where that generally happens at this point in time. Now, hopefully these guys are here well through their primes and it's, you know, again, Pierce, end of the career kind of moving around if that's the way it shakes out. But hopefully we're years from that. The possibility that they break up this year, we went over the organizational side. Let's talk about the Brown side, because, look, Jason or Jalen Brown is. He's the story right now. In. In many ways, we. Well, I won't speak for you guys, but the royal. We, again, we are hypocrites because we want our athletes to talk and then sometimes they do and we want them to be quiet to save themselves. Jalen is obviously streaming quite a bit lately. He's been doing it all year and immediate aftermath of blowing a 31 series lead off him having a career year where his co star is out 75% of it, favorite season of his career. And the inference there, everybody knows what it was. It was, you know, it was my team. It was my thing. Jason wasn't around and yeah, we came up short, but personally, this was an incredible experience. Everyone gets all over him and then it feels like a little bit of damage control where he has to further explain all the different areas. The overachieving and proving People wrong. The young guys. Look at Ugo, look at Walsh, look at all the stuff that if he had said it the first time around, it softens the blow. But when he does it after the fact, kind of in response to everybody else, it becomes a. Well, he's just covering his tracks because he knows how poorly that went over. Then you have the flip side of, well, Jalen's an intellectual.

[Gary Washburn]

He's.

[Adam Kaufman]

He doesn't say anything by accident. You know, it was no accident that he had his stream and he said his thing and then Tracy McGrady, his mentor, says his thing. And all of that happens right before Brad meets with the media and, you know, he's going to be asked about it. Brad kills it, and then Jalen talks and he kills it. And here we are. What do you believe as someone who is much closer to the situation, obviously, than ever, I. That Jalen wants from. From this contract, from this marriage, from this commitment to Boston. Does, you know, does. Does he want to continue this. Does he want to consider. Consider, you know, or continue to.

[Evan Valenti]

To.

[Adam Kaufman]

To a degree be in Jason shadow, You know, that there's just no escaping that short of an injury. That's. That's just the way it is here. Does he want to continue living that life?

[Gary Washburn]

I think Jalen is happy in Boston. Okay, like, but do I think he deserves and sorry. Desires more respect? Yes. More respect from the national NBA audience. More respect from those who probably reach out to him on social media, those who he feel. I'm sure he reads all of the criticisms, reads all of the, all of the things that are said about him negatively ever since he was that draft night where he turned around and they booed because people hadn't heard of him. So I think he takes all that and puts it on his shoulder. He. He carries the world on his shoulders. Hold on one second. And my dog. Yeah, he carries the world on his shoulders. And so I tend to think that he has to. To like, understand timing. He has to understand that the fan base is just as disappointed, if not more, because they live for this, as him. And as much as he's like, yeah, you know, we lost, but, you know, hey, you know, but I had a fun year. Like 24 hour, 24 days after the season. Okay, 24 hours. No, like, so that's in there in lies. You need probably a mentor. You need some old head. Maybe it's McGrady and say, Jaylen, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, wouldn't stream tonight. Not, like, give it A few days just chill to complain about the efficient. I already got them find 50,000, you know. But I also think, like you said, Adam, he, like we asked our athletes to express themselves, to keep it real. Nothing. Jaylen's found a vehicle to where he can be honest and keep it real because he feels limited and he feels typ cast by the league and by. By media. I think the whole thing was not making the Olympic team, the Nike thing. Stephen A. Smith saying that, you know, the reason he's not marketable is because people consider him mean or surly. He doesn't smile enough. Like all those things he's internalized. So I, I think that for him, I think he's happy in Boston. I think he's good with Jason. But the question is, is the grass always greener? How many guys escape or quote unquote, get out of great situations and then become the man somewhere else? And it never works.

[Adam Kaufman]

Kyrie Irving.

[Gary Washburn]

Look at Bryce Harper, right? The year after you left the Nationals, they won a World Series. Have the Phillies won a World Series of Bryce Harper? No.

[Evan Valenti]

He won an mvp, I think, on the Phillies, didn't he? But he hasn't really done anything.

[Gary Washburn]

They haven't won a World Series. The Nationals won a World Series without him.

[Adam Kaufman]

Yep.

[Gary Washburn]

And then, you know, not to be

[Adam Kaufman]

funny, such a different game, though,

[Gary Washburn]

left one subtle left after winning a World Series. He's got the money, but the Mets are terrorist.

[Evan Valenti]

I think. I think he's doing okay. That's 700 million.

[Gary Washburn]

Financially, he's fine. Financially he's fine. But what, what do you want your legacy to be like you made a whole lot of money or you won chips. Boston's about championships. And I'm saying Jalen's going to get his money regardless. But you want to trade in the, you know, does he want to go to Portland or does he want to go to Utah or does he want to go Atlanta? Is that going to like, like, are the Hawks ever going to win a championship? They haven't. They've never been to a Finals since they were in St. Louis. Like, is he, oh, I'm going to lead us to the finals. I'm going to take us to the next level. Like, this was the team in Atlanta that was. Remember, they're supposed to push the Knicks. And game six, they gave up. They got flat out embarrassed. Like, the Hawks should feel as bad, if not worse than the Celtics because you had a closeout game at home. You were down 60 points in the first half. So that makes you literally review Everything you're doing. And now McCollum's a free agent. So to me, I think Jalen's got to take a deep breath and figure out what he wants that I don't think he wants out of ball. I don't think I'm miserable here. I. I do think, though, he feels like he's not as respected. Like, I'll give an example. I don't even know if this bothers him. He comes to next this year with no Jason. He's introduced last every time until Jason comes back, and then who's introduced last again for every game he played, Even though Jalen's the MVP candidate. Jason, you know that kind of stuff where it's like, okay, Jason assumes his spot. Could. The Celtics had said, you know what? It's. Jalen has done so much. Jason, we're going to introduce you fourth. Could have done that. Right. I don't think Jason's like, yeah, when I come back, I'm. I'm last. Right. Like, what's up? Like, I don't. I don't think. But Jason's not gonna say no. Like, Jalen looks at that, and it's like, damn. Like, I still can't get the love from my own organization. I'm not saying that he feels disrespected, but it's little things like that, right? To me, I think Jalen's got it. Like, Adam, you said it's going to be him and Jalen when he. If he leaves his organization tomorrow. Jason and Jalen are going to be bonded together for the rest of their lives. It's like Mikhail and Paris and Bird, Pippen and Jordan. Pippen and Jordan can't stand each other. And Pippen and Jordan, if. If we're at. We. If we work together, and I say, yeah, me and Adam are like Pippin and Jordan. You know exactly what that means. Somebody is great, and somebody is damn near as good as him. Like, we're Pippin. We're the Pippin and Jordan of this company.

[Adam Kaufman]

Hall of Famers.

[Gary Washburn]

Yes. Like, that's. That's a. That's a. That's a reference we all know. Right. Because they played together. So they're Tatum and Brown. The. Is the Tam and Brown era. It's gonna like Walker, Antoine and Pierce. Right?

[Adam Kaufman]

Sure.

[Gary Washburn]

You speak of Paul now. You think of Paul, Kevin. But before also, it was. It was Antoine and Paul. Yeah. For that six years, seven years. Right. And people still, oh, man. And you and Antoine were like, you know, they are paired together so well.

[Adam Kaufman]

I mean, Some of that is, you know, it's like the era we live in. Right. A lot of that is. Is what you remember seeing on the floor in the actual basketball. But some of it is just branding. You know, it's. It's the J's. In the same way that, like, you know, Run tmc or, you know, I.

[Gary Washburn]

I remember Adam, they're doing freaking 30 for 30s or whatever on for Run TMC. Like, 30 years later, they're talking about that fake playoff run they had. Like, they did a tmc. I'm saying Shaq and Penny in Orlando. And this one. This. Like, they're gonna do a 30 for 30 on Jason and Jalen. Like, they're gonna be affiliated for the rest of their lives. Yeah. You know, you can say, who cares about that? And. And. But that's history. And your legacy is. Is. Is there. And legacy is extremely important in Boston. You look at Rice and Evans in the outfield, in Fisk. Like, you. Like, that's 50 years ago. Right. Like, they are still affiliated like that. To me, that is special. You're not getting that. You're not getting that in Atlanta. Who's. Who's dominant. Who's Dominique paired with Kevin Willis?

[Adam Kaufman]

I was gonna say get that with the Atlanta Braves. Get it with the staff.

[Gary Washburn]

Yeah, yeah. Because they won. They won one World Series.

[Adam Kaufman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Gary Washburn]

They had the best. One of the best pitching rotations in.

[Adam Kaufman]

Well, you know what? In the same. In the same way that you just sort of politely scoffed at the Braves only winning one World Series. Are people going to talk about the Jays that way? Well, yeah, they won one title because it feels like people are already moving in that direction. People are already looking.

[Gary Washburn]

A second title with this team changes their legacy and their goal. Because Everybody thinks that 2008 is too much is written about that and talked about. It's like, damn, the bastards only won one title. Get over it. Right? The 23 Nuggets. Like, the 23 Nuggets won a title. We're not doing specials on them. So, like, to me, yes, winning another championship puts them in another stratosphere. Yeah. Win the third and a whole nother one. That puts them in the Bird McKill Parish because they won three titles. 81, 80, 46. But winning another one, that should be Jason and Jalen's foremost goal. Getting another chip. Verifying their partnership together, verifying all the hard work they put in. But a lot of athletes do the same thing. Oh, I'll just take. I'll go somewhere and have my own team. And how Often does that work. Except for Tom Brady did that, but the, the base of the Patriots kicked him out, right? They laughed at him when he said he wanted to play.

[Evan Valenti]

Also, Tom Brady's the greatest quarterback of all time. Don't get me wrong. They're great, but they're not. They're not Tom. They're. They're not Bill Russell, they're not. They're not freaking Magic Johnson, they're not Kareem. Like, LeBron can do that, but, like, they're not. They're not that level guy.

[Gary Washburn]

They're.

[Evan Valenti]

They're great dudes. Don't get me wrong.

[Gary Washburn]

They're. They're.

[Evan Valenti]

But, like, no, I mean,

[Gary Washburn]

LeBron winning

[Adam Kaufman]

in Cleveland, but, like, who hit the shot, right? Like Kyrie hitting the shot, you know, Kyrie wanted out of LeBron's shadow.

[Gary Washburn]

Kyrie. How'd it work out for Kyrie?

[Adam Kaufman]

That's what I mean. He wanted his own team. He comes to Boston, it flames out miserably for not Brooklyn.

[Gary Washburn]

That didn't work out. And now he's in Dallas, like, hoping to help out Cooper. Cooper flag next year coming, like, right, like all that. Look at Durant. I want my own team. I want out of Golden State. They, they said I was a, you know, basically, I just chased a championship. How does that work for Kevin Durant?

[Evan Valenti]

Team number four?

[Gary Washburn]

Paid handsome, paid handsomely. And now people are going to look at him like, yeah, Kevin, you know, you were champion, all that, but, man, look at the last three or four teams you've been with. Failure, failure, failure. You know, Brooklyn, Phoenix, Houston, and maybe now another team coming up. Like, to me, and I know young guys don't look at that, but Jalen, I think he, the grass isn't always greener in this league. In professional sports, nothing. Jalen understands. I don't think Jalen wants out. I think he just wants to express himself. And I think sometimes he, his timing isn't always impeccable. He needs somebody to be like Jaylen, not wait a week, you know, just be.

[Evan Valenti]

He maybe learned it the hardest way by actually doing it and then getting all the backlash and having to respond to it on Twitch later. I think sometimes life, life teaches you lessons in the strangest ways, and sometimes you got to go through it personally to learn what not to do. And, you know, maybe Jalen handles himself a little bit differently. I, I, I think you talk about grass is always greener. I think this entire series was an encapsulation of, hey, Jaylen, do you want your own team? Sometimes when you have your own team lose in the first round, buddy. Like, if.

[Adam Kaufman]

If.

[Evan Valenti]

If game seven and this entire series didn't show you that he's going to need Jason Tatum, and Jason Tatum is going to need Jaylen Brown to take that next leap into the next stratosphere of. Of. Of guys. Then, I mean, what are we doing here again? I. I think very highly, Jen. I think he's an incredibly smart human being. Obviously, he's had a huge impact on the city, but I don't think he's sitting there at home being like, yeah, I could do this by myself with somebody else. I think he, in the moment was maybe leaning that way and it made. It came out that way. But, like, I don't think Jalen's gonna sit there and say, I, you know, it's gonna be better if I don't have Jason Tatum on my team.

[Gary Washburn]

Like, I agree.

[Evan Valenti]

What the hell are you gonna do? Like, you can't.

[Gary Washburn]

I don't think he's. I don't think he's one. I think he wants more respect. I don't think he wants out. I think he wants more respect from officials. I think he wants more respect from those on X and people who still probably criticize his game. I think he wants more respect from certain experts. I know Tracy McGray has been his biggest proponent, but, you know, he wants to be high in the MVP race. He looks at other guys. Well, why is he. Why is Cade a bigger MVP candidate than me? That's a good question. Sga. No, but Cade and maybe other guys. Luca, like, I'm sure he's like, how come I'm not, you know, top two or three in MVP talk. I'll let us to 56 wins. I'm sure that's what he's going through his mind. He perceives that as a sign of disrespect.

[Adam Kaufman]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I just wonder what's to come in the weeks and months ahead, because this is a guy who. It's not the same, but I can't help but think about the end for Ray Allen here in Boston. This is a guy who has been for years involved in trade rumors very unhappily. You know, McGrady obviously alluded to him having issues with Boston. Nobody went into detail on that. But I'm sure the level of disrespect that you have outlined that he feels, either from the fans going back to draft night or certain things that have happened in the community, or obviously the fact that occasionally his name is out there in, you know, it. So many times over the years, Gary, Brad Stevens has asked about the Celtics and their core and how they intend to build and all of that. And he has almost gone out of his way to, to talk about the Jays and building around the Js. And you know, I think it was IME that used the word like these guys are pillars and all of that stuff. But that is the sentiment, obviously that is always echoed by ownership and by Brad and Joe and everybody involved at the higher levels. This most recent half hour or however long press conference from Brad Stevens, there was none of that. Now, I'm not saying that means Jalen is gone, but I do believe that Brad is maybe more open to it than he has ever been before. And he said, my door's always open. Well, let's say Jalen decides to walk through that door and have that conversation. Is Brad gonna say no? Like, you're one of our guys. You're not going anywhere. You're untouchable. So is Jason. We're building around you guys, or is he gonna say, we're doing what's best for the team? We love you. We want you to be here. Our plan is for you to be here. But yeah, the phone's going to ring and we may entertain a call or two. And how's he going to feel when he continues to read about his name in these rumors, knowing that at least some of them have some credibility that could spiral. I, I just, I don't know how that goes. If this guy already feels as he feels, which by the way is human, who among us wouldn't feel the way he feels? I'm not, I'm not condemning him for it. I just wonder what's to follow it.

[Gary Washburn]

I, I agree. I mean it's, it'll be compelling. Because if you're Brad, I think you have to look at all the options to figure out what to do. I think one, you've got to come. Like what happened this year, unless you're going through a rebuild, can never happen again. Like to me, losing in the first round, when you have Jason and Jalen and you're paying top dollar and this year not so much. But you can't lose a 31 lead. If you're the AFC losing, you're a mid team, you know, you know the Orlando's and the Miami and losing in the first round like they did in 21. Okay. You know, you lost to a Brooklyn team that went to the conference finals and should have probably beat Milwaukee or could have beat Milwaukee, the loss in overtime. But I'm sorry, in the conference semifinals, I think Milwaukee beat Atlanta in the conference finals. But if you're looking at this, I think Brad goes to Joe and says, we got to make sure this doesn't happen again. And this puts even more emphasis on 26, 27 because now the window is shrieking. They know eventually we're going to have to do something with Jason and Jaylen. Like eventually we're gonna have to get rid of one of them. One of like we'd have to do something salary wise, you know, unless one of them comes back and takes a serious pay cut. Like, are, are these players. Because that's, we have to ask for a lot of these players of, of that age. The guys who are in their mid to late 20s, the Bam out of bios, the Devin Bookers, are they gonna start taking pay cuts eventually? Are they gonna say no, no, I'm. Do I do a raise? Like LeBron even took pay cuts. Like LeBron I think gets 50. But LeBron's not the highest paid player in the league.

[Adam Kaufman]

It's also 41.

[Gary Washburn]

Yeah, but, but he's, he's take, he's, he's taking these one and ones. The highest paid player in the league, this is Steph Curry. Jokic is seven second and B. Durant. So Durant is the fourth five player in the league. LeBron is 12th. So I mean LeBron makes a million dollars more than Paul George. Like what? You know, like that's crazy to me. But the, I think this generation is going to have to ask, well, can. Is in the league has to ask, can we continue to deal with these escalate, escalating salaries? Because how much is Winby gonna make at the end of his career?

[Evan Valenti]

I'm gonna steal a line from Charles Barkley. He's gonna show up in a spaceship. He's gonna be making so much money.

[Gary Washburn]

Yeah,

[Evan Valenti]

Chuck said that I'm inside the NBA years ago after I was like during a Miami Heat spurs game and he said to like, Kenny goes, because they paying some of these bums all this money. He goes, because they'd be, I'd be paying me so much money. I come to games in the spaceship. I thought that was one of the funniest junk lines of all time.

[Gary Washburn]

It's hilarious. But the fact is, is that like I think, I think the Celtics and Jalen and Jason are going to have to have some conversations about their long term future, staying together, adding talent. Because do you want to make all this money and lose in the first round or do you want us to go out there and get guys who are going to help you and it. And the 2014 was a perfect storm, right? Drew came in and they found a taker for Drew's contract because they knew we're not going to pay drew 37 million until he's 38 years old. Portland is now poor. Zingis signed an extension and they were able to get rid of him to Atlanta. Like they were able to dump these guys. Right? But now what do you do in terms of adding talent? Because you add guys that are eventually going to make max money. That's the one thing about adding these lottery picks, Adam, or at, you know, tanking like AJ Danza is gonna, gonna like you. Okay, like, well, they should just go get AJ the banza. Let's, let's throw that. Eventually AJ is gonna need his max too, right? He's gonna, he, he's gonna, he's gonna, he's gonna want his five year, 200 million dollar rookie extension. Two in, in three years. And so you can't fit all that on the same cap. So you've got to figure out a way, and I don't know what teams are going to do this to, to facilitate your highest paid players and your vets and then the young guys who are like really good. So Brad's done a great job. Peyton makes 8 million. He's a bargain. Sam makes 10 million. That's a bargain. Derek is the one that you're like, yeah, 30 something million. But for his value, it's about what value is. You said Adam, like 30 million ain't what it brings, what it used to be. Right. So I think the Celtics and Jalen and Jason are gonna have to have hard conversations and sit down about their long term futures with the organization. But I mean, Jason in 28, 29, Jason's scheduled to make 67 and Jalen's scheduled to make 64. I don't think either of them can complain about that. I don't think any, I don't think Jaylen can complain. Oh man, I'm being underpaid. Like, y' all ain't offer me 70 million dollar extension per year? What? Like, come on, man, like, I don't know. I mean, I think they've got to have a conversation with Jalen about the flexibility of having a player who makes so much money. Like, hey, you want to lose, but to make money go ahead. Yeah, like, it's a tough call.

[Adam Kaufman]

We've been going for a little while, but before we wrap up. I mean, it's. It's to be continued kind of thing because you just. You can't do it quickly. But to at least start the conversation, we do have to talk about Joe. Now, Evan here. Me, I don't know about you, Gary. To. To the. You know, what, what depths of defending Joe Missoula. You go, everyone enjoys the back and forth you guys tend to have in your press conferences, obviously. But you know, Evan, ir, Joe Missoula supporters, we are people that believe, and obviously he's soon to be the coach of the year, that he is an excellent coach overall. He is one of the better coaches in the NBA. Obviously, the regular season success speaks for itself. The playoff success, you know, you got a title that everyone criticizes. The path to it mixed in around three premature exits in his first year and the last two, obviously, this one being the most damning, even though a lot of people, they shouldn't even be there. Well, again, they were the betting favorite to represent the east in the NBA Finals going into that round. They were heavy favorites to beat the Sixers. They were up 3 1. You beat the Sixers, you win that series and they, excuse me, come up short. Again, there's the indictment of the three pointers. Is it Joe? Is it philosophical? Does it filter down from Brad? You know, Brad, it felt like to a degree, however big a degree, I don't know, started to kind of distance himself from the play style a little bit. In that most recent press conference, never for a second did I believe that Joe was about to be fired or even on the hot seat or that he should be. There are many, many, many, many people out there that believe he should be gone. Many of these same people believed he should have been gone after winning a championship. These are just people that don't like Joe or don't like his style. I'm wondering about, you know, I know he's under contract for a number of years, however many. The Celtics don't disclose that, but he's. He's around for a little while. How do you. How do you assess what you have seen overall from this Joe Missoula era and expectation to performance versus what you need to see going forward for him to remain the guy.

[Gary Washburn]

I think Joe has to review his postseason performances because he's been out coached by Spoler and Tibs and now Nick Nurse. I think that he needs to make some changes, and I'm not talking about firing guys, but some additions for the coach, coaching staff. I think there needs to be coaches on that Staff that hold Joe accountable. And you know, I think Sam Cassel was a great addition to the staff, but maybe that dynamic doesn't allow for him to say, hey, Joe, don't start Ron Harper in game seven. Or Joe like, we need to play Ugo more like, or maybe those. Joe obviously has the ultimate say. It may be Joe was just saying my call. Thanks for your suggestion. Good luck, you know, appreciate you. And he does exactly, exactly what he wants. I think Joe has to be more open to different conversations, has to be more open to a different style. I think that this year, this playoff series, they were exposed in terms of. Because this three point thing has been going on, as we know, for years, Right. And if you go back to the 24 finals, they shot 33% from three. They won that series with defense. Okay. And team started to figure out how to limit their attempts in this series against Philadelphia. One game they went 13 for 49. Another game they went 13 for 50. Like you cannot win when you're going 26 for 99 from three point line into engage. Like you just can't win shooting 50 and only hitting 26% of them. When I asked Joe about that after game seven, well, they shot 39%. We shot 26. Yeah, Joe, they shot 39% on 20 fewer attempts. So that makes a huge difference in terms of percentage of makes because Philly's going 15 for 39 or, sorry, 15 for 29 or 15 for 40 something or for 30 something. And you're going 16 for 49. Like you're, you're taking 20 more.

[Adam Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Gary Washburn]

So yeah, they shot a better percentage and they only made two more than you did, but they shot a better percentage. Like they limited their threes. They scored at the rim. Joe, I think has got to develop a better play style, as I said before, to accentuate the strengths of Jason and Jalen. He's got to be more open minded. I think they meet may need like an offensive coordinator type of coach, A guy who's been around the block. Like, remember they had a couple years ago, they had Charles Lee and Van Gundy, right? Van Gundy was a guy who was kind of on the sideline giving suggestions and tips, and then he got a bench job with the Clippers. They need someone who can just say, okay, Joe, like, this is what we should do. That he respects. Because I think the coaching staff right now, there's a bunch of young guys who are just doing their damn jobs. You know, guys that Joe knew at West Virginia, guys Joe's known but to me, it's definitely not a staff that I think is like, Joe is looking at those guys and they're like, coming together with collaborations maybe, but it's guys that Joe says, okay, thank you. The Matt Reynolds, your job is to do reviews. Your job is to work out. Sam, your job is to work with the. Emil Jefferson, your job is to work out with the bigs. Like, they all do their job. But how many of them in that room are holding Joe accountable or giving Joe really astute advice? I think he needs someone to. To kind of guide him and. Because they got to take some different directions. Like, I think this style is running thin. It's running dry. It's. It's running out of gas. And I think we saw that in the series.

[Evan Valenti]

Yeah.

[Adam Kaufman]

Have anything to add?

[Evan Valenti]

Frank Vogel or Mike d' Antoni or somebody that's. That are on the block a little bit and has some experience? I mean, I'm not. Not advocating for either guy, but that's

[Gary Washburn]

kind of the someone like that who's. Who's won, had success, been a head coach, doesn't want to be a head coach, doesn't want Joe's job or anything like that, but someone who wants to get back in, who wants to be kind of an observer to improve, because as much as the players need to improve, so does Joe. And I think that's what Brad said. We all need to improve. Like, Joe's got to take a step forward, his staff, everybody. Like that starting lineup in game seven. Whose idea was that? Like, we don't know. It was obviously Joe's idea. Did Joe get any pushback?

[Evan Valenti]

Right?

[Gary Washburn]

You know, did he just say, you know, what I must do? And there's no arguing with me because I'm Joe, like, what's going on in that coach's room? I think they have to. Joe has to improve and take a step forward. And I think he's a great coach. Like you said, Adam, the one coach of the year, you know, he had a great regular season, but he's becoming known as a great regular season coach. It's not good.

[Adam Kaufman]

Well, this is where it all begins. And who knows what little nuggets are going to come out over the course of again, weeks, months to come, you're going to blink. It's going to be the draft and the start of free agency and all of it. The one thing that we do know, based on at least what we've seen over the course of the last week, nothing's going to happen quietly. Jalen's not going to stop streaming. The national pundits and former athletes on their various podcasts or programs are not going to stop talking. The Celtics are. They're they're a brand and they're a big brand and they're going to continue to be in the conversation. So we will be here with you obviously to react to it much the same as Gary and his group will be over on the Big Three podcast. All a part of CLNS Media. Check out The CLNS Media YouTube page specifically, pardon me, the all access page to see our shows and subscribe wherever you get your podcast to the audio versions as well. Rate, review and again leave comments, whatever you want. Just thank you for being with us because the offseason it's going to be compelling. It always is. And it does feel like there are to go full circle on where we began, changes to come to this roster and no bigger need obviously than a big so we will continue to explore that as shows continue as well. But Gary, thank you so much as always for hopping on with us.

[Gary Washburn]

Oh, anytime guys. Enjoyed it.

[Adam Kaufman]

Likewise for Gary Washburn again in the Boston Globe and here at clns Evan Valenti. I am Adam Kaufman everybody. Enjoy the weekend. You'll notice we didn't talk at all about the other playoff series because the NBA to us is effectively dead for this season. We'll talk to you again soon.

[Gary Washburn]

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