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- [00:00]
Adam Kaufman
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- [00:30]
Evan Valenti
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- [00:32]
Adam Kaufman
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- [00:34]
Evan Valenti
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- [00:39]
Brian Barrett
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- [00:41]
Adam Kaufman
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Evan Valenti
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- [00:47]
Adam Kaufman
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- [00:53]
Evan Valenti
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- [00:57]
Adam Kaufman
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- [01:31]
Brian Barrett
Today's Saturday, June 20 and this is Celtic speed on CLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of your Boston Celtics. I'm Adam Kaufman. Episode 681 features the Ringer and Spotify's Brian Barrett.
- [01:45]
Evan Valenti
And I'm Evan Valenti. And today's show is powered by prizepix. Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of Celus Media. Download the app today, use the promo code CLNS and get $50 in lineups when you play. $5.
- [02:08]
Brian Barrett
Hey everybody, welcome in. It's a new edition of Celtics Beat. Glad you found us here and just great to be back with you on the heels of the New York Knicks. The champion New York Knicks getting ready to raise a banner to the rafters at the Mecca Madison Square Garden. Oh, it's going to be fun to talk about that. Yes, we will recap in part some of the reaction as well from the NBA Finals. Congrats Knicks fans. You waited more than half a century. I guess you deserve it. Some of you, some of you are awful, awful people. But those of you that I do like, congrats to you. You earned it. Hell of a team Adam Kaufman, Evan Valenti and of course our good friend from the ringer and Spotify, host of the off the pike podcast, Brian Barrett, joining us here for this particular program as we will just sort of make our way through all the buzz, all the rumors surrounding none other than Giannis Atentoko. The will he, won't he in terms of getting traded ahead of Tuesday's NBA draft? Some of the other periphery rumors, I guess I'll call them, you know, as Derrick White on the go, do people actually think it'd be a better idea to keep Jaylen Brown and trade Jason Tatum? Are both of these guys bound to stay together? It's all on the table. All stuff that we will get to over the course of this show. Happy early Father's Day to all of you out there as well. We thank you for joining us. Baron, how are you?
- [03:32]
Adam Kaufman
I'm doing well, man. I'm doing well. I'll say this at least Team USA 20 in group play. They're going to be, I mean out of all people, we got Antonio Freeman's son who Antonio Freeman famously crushed the Patriots in the super bowl way back after the 96 season. Right. I think he was over 100 with the touchdown of that particular game. He gets the second goal. But we have the Knicks where I don't know what world we're living in right now where we're contemplating, hey, are the Celtics at this current juncture good enough to beat the Knicks? What moves could the Celtics do to get better than the Knicks? This is now the world that we live in. It's insane. If you told me this just what could be couple of months ago I would have told you you were crazy.
- [04:10]
Brian Barrett
It was the darkest timeline that we are in right now. And ev, I don't need to explain to you the conversations that have been going on really since the end of the year press conference with Brad Stevens, which is okay. He didn't do the whole pillars of the Js and building around these guys. He was very careful in his wording to stay away from that. It was the necessary holes that this lineup has that need. You know, unlike Craig Breslow where he's talking about things that the Red Sox need to do in the off season and doing basically none of those things. Brad Stevens historically telegraphs what he's going to do and we know that means more point guard help. We know that means a real actual presence in the paint, around the rim, rim protection, scoring inside things that were just absent all due respect to, you know, K, he Did a great job last year. He had a career year. But in terms of competing at the highest level and, yeah, beating the Knicks, there are things that this team has to do, obviously, this offseason, which is why, in large part, Boston continues to be linked to Giannis, as we're well aware. So that's, again, just among the things that we'll get into. But, look, you've had high profile people come out and say, you know, I. I think Brown's back. I don't think the Celtics are necessarily even looking to move Brown. Yeah, there may be a phone call here or there, but there to. To go back to the Patriots days and. And all the, you know, PSA and the inflating or deflating the footballs, it's. It's more probable than not. Jalen Brown returns alongside Jason Tatum with the Boston Celtics. I just. I'll.
- [05:48]
Adam Kaufman
I'll.
- [05:49]
Brian Barrett
I'll squash my. My long, long, long preamble with this. We've said this before, but it bears repeating every show until we're wrong. Brad, again, tends to telegraph this stuff. One, but two, he operates in the shadows. So anyone out there, Wendy Amic, Fiser, you know, Washburn, like, you name it, local, national, anyone who's saying anything right now, I'm not condemning the reporting. I think it's interesting and we're going to discuss it. But I think it does come with a grain of salt, which is. It's speculative on everybody's part. Because in the long list of transactions that Brad Stevens has brought forth during his time since replacing Danny Ainge, the vast majority, if not all, have come without warning. Usually if a name is attached to the Boston Celtics, it doesn't happen. It's not real. So where do you take. Just the mystery of where we are.
- [06:50]
Evan Valenti
I feel like if considering all the smoke and everything, how, you know, Barrett's boss, Bill Simmons and Zach Love were like, you know, they made an offer, so everybody went nuts, and that offer has to be Jalen Brown. And then everybody sensed that has kind of that wallet. I don't know if they're really offering Jalen Brown. And it feels like to me, again, I'm speculating as much as anybody else that if they were offering Jaylen Brown, it'd probably be done by now. I feel like there would be a way for someone to get in. Let's say Milwaukee doesn't want Jalen Brown. I feel like there's enough interest in Jalen Brown on the league for somebody to come in and say, hey, yeah, we'll. We'll take Jalen, here's a bunch of stuff, and we'll move on. I feel like this would be done by now because we know Miami can't top that offer, and whoever else is trying to acquire Giannis probably cannot top that offer. So as we sit here on the 20th of June trying to figure out what's going on, I do believe that some of the reports come out of, like, I don't think Jalen's been offered in this deal. I think that's, that's mainly correct. And I, I, I have a hard time getting to the Giannis salary. If they're not offering Jalen Brown or Derrick White, it seems almost impossible that they could pull that off. So I, I feel like considering that the, the Bucks have said they want to move Giannis before the, the draft and everything that's lined up, I, I do believe that they've made an offer. I don't think it's what the Bucks are looking for in terms of how they could flip that to something else, because I feel like if you're going to get Jalen Brown, Atlanta and Portland are two teams that make a heck of a lot of sense as a third team to facilitate this whole thing and get this thing done. I, I just, we all know that they need to upgrade certain things to get things moving, and I think it's all speculative. I'm curious, Barrett. I think maybe the calendar year sort of matters here for Boston because they want to, they don't want to fool around with 25, 26 because they were able to duck the tax and kind of reset everything. I think if they want to make a move for anybody, it would be during the 26, 27 calendar year where they, they have, like, a little bit more flexibility, in my opinion. But, like, it is, it is feeling like again here on June 20, that the biggest thing they might do is either move Derrick White, which man would maybe break my heart a little bit, or that $27 million TPE, which I always say, no way they're actually going to use this thing. Maybe that is the biggest thing they have to use, and maybe they're actually going to use it this time.
- [09:16]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah, well, I think a couple of things can be true as it pertains to the Jalen portion of the equation. The Celtics don't want it out there, obviously, that they made Jalen Brown available. How many times have we talked about Jalen Brown in trade rumors in the past? So I'm sure they looked at other possibilities besides trading Jalen. The problem with that, as you mentioned, is getting to the honest salary. Like you can just trade Jalen for Giannis. The problem there is, well, if you do trade a bunch of pieces, well then you're looking at a Giannis Tatum Jalen team with not a whole lot of depth. Because if that's the case, unlike a Jalen deal, you're probably required to put some of your young wings in the deal. I would say at least one of them. I mean, Hugo Gonzalez I would imagine the Bucks would want in that particular deal because it doesn't matter. Any timeline they're trying to go to. Hugo Gonzalez fits because he's what, 19, 19 years old. And the other portion of this. So I don't think that's on the table from a Celtics aspect because also Jalen's really happy being the number one option. I think he's made that abundantly clear. And now he'd be what, the number three option if it's a Giannis Tatum Jalen combo. And I don't think that offer is as appealing as just what Jalen can get from a third team. So I think what may be holding this up first of all is maybe Miami's trying to do more stuff because to what you said about the Celtics, we can say the same thing about Miami. Feels like they've been talking for half a year to get Giannis to Miami. So if they like that package, which there's no premium prospect or premium player in that package, Tyler here was a good player. He's not a Giannis quality guy that you're trading in a deal. Right? Same thing with Ware. Yeah, he's an intriguing prospect. What we saw at times last year, Spolster had him out of the rotation. Now maybe a third team comes involved a la Donovan Mitchell, when he went to the Cavaliers, everybody thought he went was going to the Knicks. Now that obviously worked out better for the Knicks than it did the Cavs. Kawhi Leonard, where he basically said I'm only signing in la. He goes to the Raptors. Yeah, he doesn't sign there, but he wins a championship. So does a third team come involved? But what I think may be holding this up is are the Celtics looking at this and saying, okay, well if we're giving up two years in age because Giannis is entering his 32 year old season, Jalen's entering his 30 year old season. Jalen just finished second team all NBA. So essentially he was sixth in the MVP voting, if you will. So if we had a guy that had the six best season Hypothetically, in the NBA last year. I'm not saying he's the sixth best player. Why do we have to attach additional assets to a Giannis trade when you're going to be able to get that from a third team? Because the Celtics may look at it and say, okay, well, yeah, maybe eventually we're willing to give up a first round pick, but we're still on the portrait of this where we're negotiating with you. So we're going to stand strong in our position right now. And we don't think you're going to get a better piece in return than what you can then trade out in a deal with Jaylen Brown, the third team. We've already seen how many teams? The Portland Trailblazers, I'm sure now there's been less smoke with the Hawks and the Blazers, but we've seen teams that are interested in Jalen Heck. There was some Clippers scuttlebutt as recently as a couple of weeks ago. So I think that's where it's at. It's, I think the Celtics. This is just my take on it. I believe the Celtics would do the trade for Giannis because in this new CBA world we're living in, the windows are shorter. We're seeing that the 2024 Celtics. Drew's already gone. Poor Zingis is already gone. So you can't think like we used to think where, hey, this is a five, six year window. Unless you're a team like the spurs, where, okay, the spurs, it wouldn't make sense for them to trade for Giannis and give up Harper and give up. Or a castle. Right. Because the age gap is so long with the Celtics.
- [12:43]
Brian Barrett
It does.
- [12:44]
Adam Kaufman
Because I believe now we can get into the health stuff, the four calf injuries in 18 months. Giannis is just unequivocally a better player than Jalen. He fits the criteria of what Brad Stevens said about getting to the rim. He's in the top five in dunks and he's in the top three in dunks in for the past five years. He certainly does that. He gives you a better chance to win a championship rate now. Yeah, because I don't think you're going to have a better one through five than the Knicks. You can have a better two against two if you bring in Giannis.
- [13:17]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, it's interesting. I think that. And just so people know, we can come back to some of this stuff, the latest intel rumors, if you will. Sam Amick over at the Athletics as the Celtics have interest in Trey Murphy, Pelicans if they can't land Giannis again. A lot of people presume Boston is heavily, heavily in on Giannis. Of course, there are all sorts of Giannis rumors. You know, John Morant could be some teams. Plan B if Giannis or after Giannis is, is moved. Obviously I don't want any part of John Moran. I don't think the Celtics have been linked to him in any way. Anyway. Blazers would have some, quote, serious interest in Jalen Brown if the Celtics make him available. The Wolves, we were talking about this earlier, have strong interest in Derrick White. That's another one over with Jake Fisher. Bleacher Report Celtics reluctant to package much more than Jalen Brown in a Yanis trade. As Barrett, you were just alluding to the Bucks, the Celtics, the spurs, the Heat, all interested in landing beef stew. Isaiah Stewart, Celtics asked about Rudy Gobert at the trade deadline. Apparently it goes on and on with a lot of this stuff that's, that's out there right now. But it all comes back to Giannis, obviously, because, I mean he's the most substantial piece for one, but also the timeline of it. I'd be shocked, shocked if Giannis has not moved before Tuesday's draft given the fact that assuming in whatever deal, whether it's a two team deal or more likely, I think a three team deal, there's a whole boatload of draft picks and assets coming Milwaukee's way if they're relinquishing Giannis, even though he's, you know, borderline demanded a trade. I realize he isn't literally demanded a trade, but he's given every indication he's not going to resign a year from now, which is basically your, you know, superstar on the wrong side of 30 saying get me out of town. So they got a bunch of assets coming their way and this is a deep draft, well regarded draft on paper at least, first round in particular. And so they're going to be looking for those assets. So we're going to, you know, inside a week from now, half a week from now, we're going to have clarity on this stuff. Whether J and Jaylen, if I know there's been a whole lot, and we've talked about this on the show as well, the possibility of, well, if Jaylen doesn't go into Milwaukee trade, could Jaylen go in a, a Hawks deal? Jaylen Johnson, you know, could he be going somewhere else? I, I'm not convinced that Jalen is just okay, Celtics are dangling him. They're ready to move on by. No, I know he's expressed his frustrations and he said some of the things that he said in the stream about, you know, the comments that have been either correctly interpreted or misinterpreted. Either way, I don't think this is someone who is asked out of town. I think he would welcome, you know, coming back alongside Jason Tatum again. So to me, ready to be wrong about this, it's a Yanis trade or it's not like Brown is either back or it's the honest trade. I don't think he's going elsewhere in in a swap that does not involve the Celtics landing Giannis Tentacumpo. So we're going to have some clarity if I'm right about that in the next few days as to how this team is going about building around the Jays once again, if that's the story, or around Tatum and around Giannis. And Derrick White does become a question just to mix all of this in here, Barrett, again, we can get to individual rumors and all of that. Do you put much stock in some of the Derek White noise because he is a guy that who is immensely valuable, does a lot of things to help you win games. Yes, he's coming off of a subpar shooting year. You know, I think there are a lot of other things that he did really, really well last year, but obviously shooting the basketball was not one of them. And while he's on a good contract, he is also on the wrong side of 30. So what do you think his future is?
- [17:07]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah, I think there's certainly going to be interest. As you've already mentioned, a team like the Tim Rolls who they really could have used White in the playoffs last year. Obviously Dante DiVincenzo is most likely going to be gone for, if not all the majority of next season with the Achilles injury that he suffered. They already lost Nikhil Alexander Walker to free agency the previous season, so they may look at it on the guard line. Not so much just about the offense that Derrick White can provide and at least run some of their offense and hopefully they're looking at it and say okay, let's get him back to a role where he's not overtaxed as the number two option on a team and he can knock down threes again as he takes did for the majority of his Celtics career. Now maybe the Celtics are looking at that the same way. So I do think there's going to be interest there from Derrick White. I just, it feels like to me if you're trading Derrick White, it needs to be something substantial. Just like when I Talk about it with Jaylen Brown is it needs to be somebody that's going to impact this team right away. And from my perspective, that would be a different type of impact because maybe you say, and I don't personally feel this way, maybe you say, hey, what Ugo provides us defensively, what Walsh provides us defensively, and Hugo, of course, entering year two of his rookie contract, maybe they can eat up some of those minutes and maybe we look at it. I know you mentioned Rudy Gobert bringing in a center who Rudy Gobert's contract used to look terrible. At last glance, I believe there's only two years left on that deal, so I could understand how the Celtics get there in terms of they want to put pressure on the rim. Rudy Gobert is a really good roller, but I would have a tough time trading Derrick White and the other component to that that I would say too, just in terms of you mentioned the pieces as well. Yep, I have a really tough time and maybe I'll be proven incorrect on this. I have a really tough time looking at this from a team that right now is a contender. The Celtics on paper right now are a contender. Whether or not they make the honest deal. I'm not saying they're the favorites in the East. Obviously the Knicks should be the favorites and we'll see what Detroit does. Maybe they take a step forward with the move they make this particular offseason. And we know the Pacers are coming back with Zubak, although they don't have the fifth pick. So based on the age of your best player being Jayson Tatum entering his 28 year old season, I have a really difficult time trading Jalen if it's not for Giannis, because if you're just bringing pieces back and Murphy's a good player but like his on ball numbers are not particularly good. If you look at his pick and roll numbers now, he can shoot, he's a good defender and he's on a good contract, I believe now Zion would kind of be interesting to me because he does put pressure on the rim. The problem is he doesn't play basketball games, which is kind of an issue. But if they were making that type of deal, I would want to take a chance on Zion. Just the Duke connection that you have with Jason Tata, but overall I'm like, maybe there's a chance the team's better, but it's more likely if you just keep Jalen, you have a better chance to win a championship. So in terms of trading out Jalen for that type of package, I know, in the new CBA with the two guys under a max salary, I know that that's tough to build your team doing it that way either. I would just have a tough time looking at this and saying, hey, we felt like we were a contender once we got Tatum back last year. Hey, if we split Jalen into pieces because I don't want to trade out the best player in a deal right now. If I'm trading Jalen, I needed to be honest and I think you could convince yourself on the Derrick White thing. I mean, I am the president of the Derrick White fan club, but the Gobert thing is at least slightly interesting because then you become obviously already a really good defensive team with Derrick White. And Derrick White, if you look at the impact numbers, was one of the best in the league. If you look at the on off numbers in terms of the defense with Minnesota, his on off numbers are actually better than Wemby. Like they were 11 points per 100 possessions better on defense with them on the floor. Now, I'm not saying he's a better defensive player than Wemby, don't get me wrong. But at least like there is impact there. And the Keita and I know he's young, but the cater minutes, they were just so disappointing in the postseason. Like, dude, stop following when the guys at the other basket. It doesn't make sense. I mean, I could see that one. I could see why the Celtics have interest in it. If it were me, I probably wouldn't. And this is why I don't have that job and they do. I probably wouldn't have the stones to trade Derrick White.
- [21:03]
Brian Barrett
Take a quick break. Tell you about our good friends over at Prize Picks. It's a scorching sports summer and you can make all your picks on prize picks. The wnba, the baseball season, they're heating up with big tennis slams, major golf tournaments on the horizon, one even going on right now. You can make your picks for all these events and more all throughout the summer on Prize Picks. America's number one sports picks app.
- [21:27]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, the entire summer of soccer. Kaufman is on Prize picks, all 48 countries in every matchup. And if you rep your side during the tournament. Yeah, USA love that. Nice, nice 2 nil win yesterday. I should say Friday against Australia. Good stuff there. Good stuff, boys. We love that. But again, you could rep your side to the tournament of prize picks. You could win a trip to the
- [21:49]
Adam Kaufman
final in New York. Unbelievable.
- [21:51]
Evan Valenti
Just like the NBA Finals prize fix is helping you get there.
- [21:54]
Adam Kaufman
It's the biggest tournament ever, which Means
- [21:56]
Evan Valenti
there's more, even more opportunities to cash in while you root for your favorite sides and global soccer stars. With that in mind, Kaufman, we are going to use three legs of the summer soccer tournament. We're going more than 0.5 goals versus Senegal. He's been ridiculous.
- [22:17]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, Holland scored two last time.
- [22:20]
Evan Valenti
He's been ridiculous. He's been insane. I'm gonna go a little, little contrarian here, but I think most people that pay attention to stuff would, would agree with me. We're going with Messi. We're going less than 50 and a half passes versus Austria.
- [22:33]
Adam Kaufman
He doesn't do anything.
- [22:34]
Evan Valenti
He just stands there. Then as soon as the ball comes toward him, he just makes eight people miss and scores.
- [22:39]
Brian Barrett
Give me the rock.
- [22:40]
Evan Valenti
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say less than 50 and a half passes. He's missed that four of the past five, just so people know. And then Van Dyke, who I love on the Netherlands, we're going more than 0.5 shots versus Sweden. I'm a big Netherlands guy. I think they're like my third favorite team. I love the Orange and Syracuse. You know, you know how it goes. He is basically their, their primary offensive guy. We're going to go more than 0.5 shots versus Sweden. If I hit all three, I 3x my money, 2 out of 3 get my money back. You guys know this works. Let's play saves my ass more more times than not. And getting my money into my bank account could not be any easier. I use Venmo super easy. You have debit card, bank what? Doesn't matter. Bank statement doesn't matter. And if lamps on fire mine. This never happens to me, but maybe it could happen to you if your lineup's on fire. Prize picks offers early payout. So just make sure you keep an eye on your prize picks lineups all throughout the soccer tournament coffin.
- [23:33]
Brian Barrett
So download the prize picks app today. Use code CLNS to get $50 in lineups after playing your first five dollar lineup. Once again, download the prize picks apply. Go do it right now while you're listening to this show. The promo code is CLNS. Get $50 in lineups after playing your first for only 5 bucks. Again, code CLNS. 50 bucks in lineups after playing your first lineup for only $5. USA. USA. USA. Back to the show. All right, we're back here with our good buddy Brian Barrett, of course, off the pike podcast, the ringer and Spotify talking about this summer of uncertainty for the Boston Celtics in particular. Over the course of the next few Days leading into the NBA draft where we will get an indication anyway. Are there wholesale changes? It's Tatum, it's Giannis or it's Tatum, it's Brown. Could white be on the move ahead of the draft? Is he on the move at all? Are they just improving on the margins as we like to say around here? Again, it's all in question there. I gave you already some of the reports that are out there and some of many very spoiled speculative reports. The thing that I don't think, I'm not naive, I'm not going to say it's not been talked about at all, but I don't think it's been talked about enough, guys. And we don't have the answer. So this is, you know, for all the criticizing I'm doing and people, you know, speculating, we're about to do the same thing. My question though is this, what does Jason Tatum want? Tatum has had every opportunity throughout this off season since the end of that premature year. You know, falling in the, in in the first round, a seven game series up three one, you blow it, he's not available. Game seven, you fall to a vastly inferior. And I still feel this way Philadelphia team. Like I have this argument with people all the time. Yeah, well the best team won because they won. No, like sometimes the best team loses. You know, the best team just didn't play well enough. That was Boston against Philadelphia. You know, Philadelphia is not a better team than Boston. You cannot convince me of that. Tatum has had every chance since then to, and I'm not saying he's get like he's got to go on Jalen Brown's stream or anything like that, but he could post something on social media if he wanted to, Instagram, Twitter, supporting his guy, throwing him a bone, talking about, you know, just anything, an emoji would do it. Honestly, he's done nothing and that's okay. I'm not criticizing him for doing nothing. I'm making note of the fact that, that he has done nothing. I don't know and I'm not leaning into, oh, there's friction between these two. They don't want to. I don't, I'm not saying I believe any of that. But it's a superstar driven league and front offices, higher ups, coaches, they consult with their superstars. And I've said this before, I will say it again. Jason Tatum, superstar Jaylen Brown all star. There is a distinction between the two. Brown, as great as he was last year, is not on a healthy Jason Tatums level. Never will be. That's okay. He's an incredible player. He's just not of that ilk. In my mind, despite Barrett, the Ringers ratings, putting those guys side by side as they sit here right now at 10, 11 or whatever the numbers were. Tatum, I don't know, as he looks around the league, as he watches the NBA Finals, is he saying to himself, man, like we do need to make some moves to get on. On. On the Knicks level, We're not quite there yet. Giannis, he would get us there. As opposed to Jalen Brown in the parody, in this Adam Silver NBA where it's a different champion every year and there are no repeat winners. Who cares if our window shortens a little bit? If we can be better now with Giannis for a little less period of time then with Brown for a little bit extended period of time, that's okay. Let's go get the ring. I want to get into that special room, that special club in Celtics history that has two titles, not just the one. I want to continue to elevate my profile. Now, he would never say these things publicly, but I wonder what he's saying to his best friends. I wonder what he's saying to Brandy, his mom. I wonder what Jayson Tatum wants this offseason. Because I do think he, at least to a degree that matters.
- [27:52]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah, I look at it because you look at some of the things that Jalen did this year. So first of all, remember when we were approaching the All Star break and he put up the stats about the offensive rating this year compared to last year, it's like, well, what's different? Oh, yeah, your partner in crime, as he said after he won the Finals, MVP Jason Tatum wasn't there. How many times, in his words did he double, triple, quadruple down on this being his favorite season? And I know I don't. We don't have to get into a huge argument about Jalen's. We don't have to rehash Jalen's comments about how this is his favorite season. I know he was saying it all year, but maybe when you blow a 31 series lead, something the organization has never done, maybe that stops this from being your favorite season. Even after Game seven, he said this is the way we should have been playing when Tatum was not in the game. Right. Tatum is hurt for that game. Now, I actually do agree with that in some sense where I don't know why Missoula didn't use the depth that he used all season long. I thought that was kind of the secret Sauce of the team. But my point being here too is you mentioned it with Tatum and wanting to get a second championship. I don't believe. And maybe I'll be proven incorrect on this. It's only Tatum and Jalen are great buddies. It's not. I'm not saying they don't get along, but it's not like they're best friends. Like, if you look at it, Tatum's probably closest friend on the team, I would guess. I would say it's probably Derrick White or was right.
- [29:11]
Brian Barrett
Any real close with Jordan Walsh.
- [29:14]
Adam Kaufman
He was. Jalen's really close with Jordan Walsh. And Tatum was close with Al Horford. He's called Al Horford his favorite teammate back in the day. I believe Tatum was close with like, Josh Richardson. I don't know what the connection was there, but I believe they were really close. And this is not.
- [29:27]
Brian Barrett
They're not the Nova boys for.
- [29:29]
Adam Kaufman
Right, exactly. They're not that. And the thing that I mean by that is if Tatum looks at and he says, well, if we're gonna get Giannis, I have a better chance to win a championship next year. And I would also say it, and this is kind of circling back to the honest portion of the equation here. Giannis hasn't played in the second round since the Grant Williams game. That's the last time this guy's played in the second round. So you would think after seeing Jokic get his championship, right? Shea get his championship. Jalen Brunson just won a championship. Tatum and Jalen Brown won a championship. He may be like, I need to get back to competing at the highest level because this guy, the only way that he becomes relevant at the end of these seasons now is his trade issues. Where did he make a tr. Oh, he didn't make a trade. Demand always posting the meme from Leo, Leonardo DiCaprio and that. What's that movie called? Wolf of Wall Street. That great. I don't know why I got that name. It's a great movie. So there's that element, too. Like, to me, Giannis holds a lot of leverage here because he's the guy that's under contract. And he could say, I'm not signing with you. And another team may say, well, it's not worth trading for him if it's the Celtics, he will sign if he's going to play with Jason Tatum. And then the last portion of the equation circling full. As I digress here, fully back to Jalen, based on the comments after game 7 about this is how we should have played based on posting all this stuff that he did during the year, based on the playoffs, it became Tatum's team again. They were running the offense through Tatum, not through Jalen Brown. If you just look at it, look at the assist numbers that Tatum had in that particular series compared to Jalen, who of course had more turnovers than assists. But my point is this. Even though Jalen may be saying all the right things, he already has an Eastern Conference, and he actually isn't. But he already has an Eastern Conference Finals mvp. A Finals MVP and an NBA championship. Right? He has all those things. He just got second team all NBA this past season. From an individual standpoint, I think we can all agree he's never winning the mvp. So from an individual standpoint, I don't think there's much more for him to accomplish. So he may look at it. He already, he already has the title and say, are we sure? And I think the Celtics have to internally ask themselves this question, are we sure he's going to be okay being number two again to Jayson Tatum? Because I have real questions about that. He had his experience having that role, and it was his favorite season. He was saying this is his favorite season without Jayson Tatum. So I don't know if he could go back to the role that he had last year or the year prior to that, where he's just the one B, so to speak, to Jason Tatum. Like, I think that's the most underrated aspect of the Jalen Brown sort of trade rumors, including the honest aspect. Are we sure Jalen's going to be okay playing that way again? Because I don't think so. We heard him after the series against the 76ers. I don't think he's going to be cool with it.
- [32:06]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, what really is interesting to me is like, this. Jalen realize that Jalen Brown and a bunch of dudes trying really hard. Great, great regular season. Got to the number two seed, won a bunch of games, won way more games than anybody would have expected. I mean, I mean, 50, whatever, was just absolute miracle of a year. But, like, what did it really get you? It got you a first round exit of the playoffs to a team they should be like, that's, that's, that's what it got you. So, like, as much as Jalen even, this is. This is more of like a mindset of him. Of like, do you look at that and say, hey, you know, I can have my own team, I can be the guy and I can lead us to an incredible season. Or do you Sit there and say, like, in order for me to actually like, win important games when stuff really matters, I'm gonna need a Jason Tatum level guy with me to get it all done. And that's. And then to Kaufman's point, like, we don't know what Jason Tatum wants because he never talks about it. He's just very to himself and has his off season, you know, goes to like, whatever exotic island he goes to with Deuce and then comes back and trains and, you know, we'll see him on the floor and he'll be awesome. Like, it's just usually what we get. We don't get a lot of information out of him. He's done a couple more podcasts recently. We'll stop by and talk about stuff, but usually just don't hear from him. And if, and if you're Jalen Brown, like, that's the question. Like, do you, do you sit there and say, that's what I want. I want to compete by myself as the guy and, and maybe like not to be, not to be like anti jailing here, but it's like, dude, look around the league. Yeah, what team are you leading? That's gonna, that's gonna be whatever the spurs end up looking like, like just fact that those guys are ridiculous. The Thunder are so good and so built for success that they're like, oh, maybe we'll just take all of our picks and go trade, you know, Casey Wallace and a bunch of things and try and jump up into the lottery and get like, you know, Caleb Wilson or something, like, they can do some crazy stuff. The Knicks, who apparently are not going to the second apron according to Jim Dolan, you know, they, they might, you know, they might not step down a little bit because they're gonna lose Mitchell Robinson. Like, you know, I'm just saying if you're Jalen Brown and you're looking around and saying, my life would be better as my own guy, like, I don't, I don't, I'm not in Jalen's head. And I, and I'm not, I don't have the confidence in myself that these guys have. Like, I, I, I like myself, don't get me wrong. But these guys are next level confident to be a top. You know, Jalen was second team all NBA this year, so he's a top 10 player in the league this year. To be a top 10 player in the NBA, you gotta have a certain amount of confidence. So I, I, I, I don't know. I don't know if Jalen's in there saying, like, hey, like I, I would just where I'm sitting, I would look at what happened this year and say there's no way with my own team that I'm going to do anything of any importance because the way that the rest of the league is set up, you need more than one guy then and a bunch of other dudes to win a title. And I don't, I don't think, in my opinion, Barrett, that that's possible as Jalen is the lead guy.
- [35:04]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah. And let me just interject on that because I want to go back to Tatum for a second here because I think from a real positive standpoint, the Celtics are really lucky that they have Jason Tatum from a personality standpoint, because I really believe that in this current juncture of the NBA, and I'm not saying he's of this player status or of these players status I'm about to mention, but I think he's more in the Tim Duncan, Steph Curry mode where he comes into the NBA and he doesn't have that huge personality that Curry or excuse me, that Duncan. He doesn't have a big personality. Right. Curry has got more of a personality. But once they get Steve Curry and even when they had Mark Jackson, I would say to some extent Curry, remember he battled injuries at the beginning of his career, the ankles. But ever since, like they started rolling until very recently when they messed up the 2020 draft and the whole two timelines thing, Curry has such a loyalty to that organization. And if Tim Duncan, you look at him, obviously he had loyalty to that organization. Tatum trusts the Celtics and Tatum doesn't want to be out here making sort of demands it. Curry, to a fault, I would say hasn't made demands throughout his career. In the second sort of juncture of where he's at from an NBA lifespan where it's like, is he really. Is this how it's going to end for Curry? Where the ceiling is like the playing game for this team? And I think Tatum really trusts the organization because why wouldn't he? They tried something in 2019, it didn't work, but it's not like they weren't trying. They brought in Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward. It just didn't work. And ever since there, they've kept making tweaks where, okay, let's try Kemba Walker. Let's see if he works in the mix. Unfortunately, that didn't work. Brad Stevens goes to the front office, they bring in a new coach and ime, which eventually of course led to Joe Missoula but during that stretch, even think about it where, hey, okay, it didn't work in 2022, we got aggressive, we went out and we got Malcolm Brogdon, who was ended up being the sixth man of the year. We were close with him. That didn't work. We turned Brogdon and Marcus Smart into Christophs Porzingis and Drew Holiday. I think Tatum at this point, and he knows he. He's playing for one of the legendary franchises in the NBA. So that's where I think it's more about a trust that he has in Brad Stevens, the front office, the organization in general, than it is about, like, his relationship with Jalen and coming up publicly and saying, I want to finish my career with Jalen Brown. I think he looks at it and says, well, I just have trust they're going to do the right things. Because he probably looks at it, said, well, if we don't make the Drew trade, maybe we win the championship. But Drew put us over the top, right? I Drew Colby being the third or the fourth option on that team. Same thing could be said about Porzingis. Those moves put us over the top. So if he looks at him, he says, well, if Brad and the rest of that front office, where there's a lot of. It's a small front office, but it's a really smart front office. If they think the best thing to do is to trade Jalen because it's going to bring us, Giannis onto to Kumpo, where there's already that connection with Drew Hanlon, with Tatum and Giannis, who Drew Hanlon spent time with Giannis as well, then I'm going to trust they're going to do the right thing. So that's why I think the Celtics are almost really lucky. They stumbled not only on the player because they deserve all the credit for moving back in the draft and taking Tatum, but the personality. Not to say that when he's on the court, he's not a ruthless competitor. I mean, you don't guard centers in the NBA Finals. You don't eat Kevin Durant for lunch in the 2020 playoffs. If you're not a ruthless competitor, you don't come back from an Achilles injury when you did one of the fastest timelines we've seen recently. If you're not a ruthless competitor. I'm not saying any of that, but. But the personality to believe in the organization and the reason he can do that is because they've shown him they can create a good team around him. I think the Celtics really benefit from that where it's not like they're rocking the boat with Tatum. This may rock the boat with a different superstar. It's not going to rock the boat with Tatum, no matter what they do.
- [38:38]
Brian Barrett
I also think so. I agree with everything that you said about Tatum. I think there's another part of this as it relates to the front office. And I wonder if it's a question that those guys are having internally, if they've already made up their mind independent of recency bias. But again, there aren't right now in this, I'm not saying it's never coming back, but in this era of the NBA, there are no dynasties, There are good teams. There are really good teams. Like, we expect the spurs to continue to be good, but maybe they don't get back. Or maybe they get back and they only win one. Maybe they don't get more than that. Maybe Wemby gets his one and that's that. Everyone thought it was going to be this year. Okc, Everyone just assumed, Thunder, they win, they're getting back. Look at that team. Maybe they never get back. Or if they do, maybe they don't win. Maybe they land on one. You know, you don't have these teams that do what the warriors did, what LeBron teams have done, you know, Jordan, Kobe on, you know, Celtics of the past. You get what I'm saying? We don't, we don't have it right now. And from a roster construction standpoint, when you look at what the Knicks just did to go just a little bit into the NBA Finals, the Knicks and spurs are built two very different ways. The spurs obviously building largely through the draft and have an insane amount of incredibly young talent. We all expect Castle, Harper, you know, the cell, like all these guys are going to continue to get better and better and better. And obviously Wemby is already regarded as a top five, top two player in the league. You know, you got to get off a dear and Fox's contract somehow. You know, again, maybe that's a Yanis trade or maybe it's somebody else. There are other ways to continue to improve that team, but they are top heavy. And that's okay. Most teams are. That's not a criticism. The Celtics have historically kind of been that too. I know there was a lot of the balance during the championship year, but you were still led by the Jays. And like you said, Hunter Holiday, Porzingis third, fourth interchangeable options. Al Horford, a fifth option, maybe Peyton Pritchard. On and on and on this Knicks team, it's a Clear. Jalen Brunson. And then obviously you have Towns, you have Anoby, you have Hart, you have Bridges, you have, you know, all these guys. But it's a more balanced roster that is not led by a top five guy. And I say that respectfully to Jalen Brunson. Brunson is often in the conversation for first team all NBA. He's obviously a perennial all Star and he is a player that is excellent, but I don't think he would be universally considered a top five player in the NBA. Top 10, sure. But typically a championship team historically, annually has that top five player, maybe even multiple guys inside the top 10. We're long past that. Like, you got to have a big three. Knicks don't have a big three. They don't even really have a definitive big two, if you will, which the Celtics historically have had with the Jays going back almost a decade. Brad Stevens, Mike Zarin, all these guys, they could be looking at this and saying, all right, I mean, maybe there is something to be said for not, and this goes against the honest thing, but not having that two man and fill out the roster from there. Maybe it's Tatum. We're building around Tatum, specifically Tatum Brown, see you later. We're going to go get multiple role pieces that are, and I'm being dismissive when I say role pieces. Multiple good players, really good players that can help us fill out the roster that maybe together they're better than you individually. Jaylen Brown. I don't know if they're looking at this Knicks championship and looking at the Eastern Conference in general and taking anything from that, or if they're looking at this this year as just kind of one of those early 2000s Detroit Pistons outliers that like, ah, you know, lightning in a bottle, good path, you know, hardworking, stubborn team. Every, you know, things went right for them because they earned it. But that's not going to happen again in a regular NBA season because that is a big part, Barrett, of how they elect to construct this roster.
- [42:52]
Adam Kaufman
Well, I think it's so fascinating because both the examples from the NBA Finals, unless something changes, literally no team can build the way either one of those teams built their team. A because if you look at it from a San Antonio perspective, they just made a lottery change that if it had already been in place. The spurs don't have Dylan Harper and even the fact that Wemby last year, not this past season, the season before, he had the blood clot issue, that's one of the reasons they're in contention to get that number two pick because he missed so many games that they even get into that spot. So no teams. And by the way, they get lucky. It just so happens the draft, they get the number one pick, it's the best prospect since LeBron James. And then they have two more top five picks and they get really lucky that all these teams passed on Castle, where Castle sitting for them, what with the fourth pick, Reed shepherd goes before him to Houston. That ime. I mean, if you gave ime, gave him more money, said, hey, ime, this year we're paying you more money. If you just play Reed shepherd more, he still wouldn't do it. He'd refuse the money and say, no, I'm not doing that. So you can't really build the way the spurs are. Because, look, another team could have had that luck. The Jazz could have had that luck. Maybe the, I guess a little bit later for the Grizzlies, but Brooklyn could
- [43:58]
Brian Barrett
have had that luck.
- [43:59]
Adam Kaufman
Look at them. They drafted five guys in the first round that we don't even know if one of them is going to be a starter going forward, like long term for that organization. But with the Knicks is. And I think with the Knicks, in a weird way, I think this is going to become an issue in other sports, too. First of all, they did a ton of smart things. They have this Villanova connection and everybody else, it's like, oh, yeah, we, we think we can get Towns. He's a CAA guy, we'll get him, right? Oh, gee, he's a CAA guy, we can get him, right? I mean, that was a dumb, dumb trade by the Raptors to just get quickly and Barrett back. Like not a pick. They just sort of underrated OG's value on the market, at least from my perspective. But what other superstar in the NBA is taking 113 million less dollars? It doesn't happen in the modern day NBA. So maybe they have OG, but they don't have OG. And Townes. If Brunson actually waits and gets that, whatever it was $260 something million dollars instead of the contract that he signed. And look, part of it is Brunson's got a pretty good gig, right? I mean, he's obviously given up a ton of money, but he's still making a ton of money. His dad's on the coaching staff. I believe his dad was the only carryover from the Tib staff that stayed on. And he got all his buddies on the team. The guy clearly, and I'm not taking anything away from me, clearly cares about winning, but I don't know what other NBA team can build away. The Knicks have because of the fact that the best player on the team is nowhere near the contract that he should be making. And then the other portion of the equation is. And I think this is where, if you have a Celtics, this is why I think I would advocate the honest trade. Now, this Knicks team, and we've seen how injuries impact the league, but look at their best players. They're starting five. All those guys are between 29 and 31. When you're looking at OG and you're looking at Bridges and Brunson and Hart and Cat. How many other teams in the NBA have that? Where they have their five best players are all sort of in a similar age in terms of their prime years. Now, the spurs have it where their three best guys going forward are all young. They're between 20 and 22. But the fact that the Knicks have all these guys in their prime and they just kept making smart move after smart move. But I just think, like, as much credit as the Knicks front office gets, Jalen Brunson deserves even more credit because he made their life so easy by taking less money. I mean, it just doesn't happen. I feel like years from now, and I'm saying this is true, we're going to be like, well, what's the aspiration deal that the Knicks made? Or maybe Brunson's just such a good guy that he wanted his dad and he wanted all his buddies from college, and he just trusted Worldwide west and Leon Rose and all that. That certainly probably is the most likely case, but it's just jarring when you see that number. I feel like we're going to get, like, I think it already started here locally, but when Drake May's up for that extension, it's going to be, well, look what Jalen Brunson did. Look at what Jalen Brunson did.
- [46:32]
Evan Valenti
He took less look at what Tom Brady did. Tom Brady did it for a freaking decade.
- [46:36]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah, I mean,
- [46:40]
Evan Valenti
but like, that's maybe where we are with the CBA at this point. Like, you can. You can't build around 2 max guys because it's just not possible. And like, we talked about this when the new CBA was kind of like, ratified, and the really smart people in the room could be like, well, you know, they're going to have a lot of guys that make a lot of money. They're going to have the majority of guys that aren't making a lot of money because there's not enough money to go around. Like the, the star players, because of the players association, they always get these ginormous, like, you have to give a max deal. Give it max deal. That's because what everybody else has done. So maybe that's the, the move forward here. Because, like, we, I think was it Washburn we had on Kaufman that was like talking about how you. You have to have a conversation with Jalen and then, you know, if you're going to have this conversation with jail, I have to have a Jason too, about, like, guys, we, we can't build a team around you two both making 70% of the cap like this. The extension that they have to offer Jaylen Brown of like, well, they have to offer it to him like, well, no, they don't. They don't do anything because he's still under contract for a long time. But if you're going to try and do that, you're going to have to try and say, hey, like, Jalen, we. We can't pay you $70 million a year. This is not possible. We can pay you this. And if you're going to ask Jalen to do that, you have to ask Jason to do that. Because you can't treat one guy one way, one guy the other way because of how, you know, these guys have been coming up together and how they've, you know, built this team around those two guys.
- [48:00]
Brian Barrett
I do want to maybe we had our polarizing buddy Seth on the show recently. And because I was sort of smirking listening to Barrett talk about the Brunson contract. And you'll remember on our text thread, I had texted about that contract when obviously, you know, these. Everyone's sort of celebrating in retrospect, all these years later, that deal. And I said something like, you know, the Jays would never. To your point. And Seth wrote, first of all, no one asked them to. Second of all, and I say this all the time, Brunson took his quote discount because he didn't want to play out a contract and risk something bad happening. He was still at a stage where if he suffered a major injury, he wouldn't get a contract. Like, yeah, it became a great contract. It also locked in 156 million at a time. He only had like 30 something guaranteed, so why not? I fucking hate the way people talk about this contract. You know, like, he's some saint for this. So that. That is part of it. Barrett, the fact, the fact that, you know, and I'm not saying that what
- [48:57]
Adam Kaufman
was his first Knicks deal, didn't his First Knicks deal, wasn't it over a hundred? Wasn't that the one that was criticized? Remember when he signed with the Knicks? I think it was over $100 million. And everybody thought, I remember at the time that first contract was kind of questioned because it's like, oh, do we even know if this guy is like an all star caliber player? So I think he already had $100 million from his first Knicks deal.
- [49:18]
Brian Barrett
Let's see. I don't know. I may have everybody's favorite talking.
- [49:24]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, I mean, everybody's favorite thing is when you do. Trying to, trying to look up contracts and, and, and fill while, while there's a lot of dead air. But like, yeah, that. I mean, you just can't, to Barrett's point of, like, you can't use these two Finals teams as ways to build your team because yeah, this person.
- [49:40]
Brian Barrett
104 million dollar contract with the Knicks that he signed July 2022.
- [49:44]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah. So if he wanted to, he clearly could have waited. He clearly could have waited.
- [49:51]
Brian Barrett
I mean, there's, there's no argument against.
- [49:52]
Adam Kaufman
I don't think he was worried about an injury. I don't think he's worried about an injury. I think he really was looking at it from a team building sort of aspect and the fact that he had everything he wanted there. Like they were doing everything that he wanted, he trusted, which is crazy to say he trusted the Knicks, but he did because of the guys Worldwide west and Leon Rose being there and the fact that they were going to have his dad on the coaching staff. They were trading for his guys, the organization was going in the right sort of direction and they thought. And I think part of it too is like having an agent running your franchise. Being in all these discussions in terms of, hey, how much can we pay your guy? He was probably ahead of the game, looking at it, saying, hey, we can't. If we pay you this contract, look at what we can't do. If we do pay you this, the contract that we're proposing, look at what we can sign. And I think Jalen Brunson is such like a, obviously a great leader and only, I mean, the guy legitimately, he just wins at every level. He won two national championships at college. And if they said, hey, this is the better way for us to win, I think he would, he would have agreed to it. But I think now, like, it almost. It sets a tough precedent for other superstars around the NBA that aren't as good as Brunson. I mean, think about this, like, if this happened in Major League Baseball, the players union would have said, you're not signing that deal. We can't allow you to sign that deal. Remember going back all the way to 2004 where a rod was going to take a haircut to come here and he was gonna do it, he wanted to come here and the players. And it worked out obviously well for the Red Sox, but they were like, you can't do that. I, you can't. You, you're the highest paid player in the league. You can't be taking a discount because that affects the rest of the players across the sport. So yeah, like these other guys are probably going to be asked that. So if Valencia was pointing out, like with Jalen and Tatum, like, I wouldn't be surprised. Now a front office is across the league are like, hey, we'll give it to you, but let me propose this to you. Look at what happened with Jalen Brunson. We can get more players, like, because you're gonna have to find new tricks in the cba because as we were talking about off the top here, the 2024 Celtics only basically had a two year window. And this is not about like ownership where I guess in a sense it is because the owners put this in there to protect themselves so they weren't paying like crazy money. So in a way it is about ownership, but there's actually punitive penalties where your draft picks get frozen or hey, you can't put three guys in a trade to trade for one. Right. Like if you go back to the trading deadline, the only reason the Cavaliers were the most expensive team in the league. The only reason. And obviously apparently Jrue Holiday was on the table instead of James Harden. Like they could have drew Holiday. But anyway, going back to that is they could trade Garland for Harden because the contracts were lined up. They couldn't have traded Garland out for like three different players based on where they were from a salary cap perspective, unless I'm mistaken. So that was a creative way, what they did with Brunson to sort of figure out a way to win. Now I don't advocate with Dolan saying I'm not going into the second apron. And maybe that is like the right move. It would require losing Mitch Robinson. So maybe that is the right move. I just wouldn't be saying that at the. Basically around the parade.
- [52:42]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, I just don't know. Again, Giant, unknown, Ev. But I, I don't, I don't know. And hopefully the front offices do what these guys want. To me, it's just such a big deal. Like, to your point about the Brunson contract building around that team, like, there was no mystery. This dude cared about winning, wanted to win, kept receipts along the way. You know, still, even when the mayor made reference to the, you know, people talking about Brunson being too small, too short, too slow, whatever else, like, he still kind of sat in his chair behind him, stewing a little bit. Like, he looked a little, you know, like he's just tired of hearing it, you know? So it's clear what fuels some of these guys. But once you get yours, once you win, not everyone is wired to, you know, my Brady, right? Like, my favorite one's the next one. Not everyone is wired that same way. Some guys get theirs. Plenty of guys throughout history never do, therefore, they have theirs. And it's like, okay, I'm in the club, and that's. And that's good enough. Does Jalen Brown want to. And I'm just projecting this out. Who knows? If this is true, does he want to perennially be, you know, conference finals or better opportunities with the Celtics, but living in Jason Tatum shadow a little bit? 1a, 1b? Or does he want to be, you know, a five or six seed that annually is topping out in the second round, but he's getting his, and he's the guy, and he's putting up numbers and he's, you know, solidifying his hall of Fame case and all of these things. Giannis. You know, I've talked about this with Giannis on past shows, too. The. All the reports of he wants to stay in the east, he wants to be on a contender. He cares about winning again. Doc going on, you know, Simmons show the other day, like, yeah, I'll tell you this about Giannis. Giannis wants to win. All he cares about is another ring. Maybe that's true, and maybe that's why he wants to go to a place like Boston that he could help elevate to, you know, a. A betting favorite to win the championship. But if he wants to go to Miami, that shit's out the window. As far as I'm concerned. You're not going to south beach and pairing with Bam Adebayo and not nobody else, because you have title aspirations. You just want to go to Miami and save some money and, you know, and again, that's fine. Like, you've won everything you can win. You've won a championship. You've won the individual honors. Like, I'm not here to chastise your motivations, but, like, let's not talk out of both sides of our mouth with this stuff. I think, as you said, Tatum pre. Like all evidence, anyway, historically, in the decade that we've got points to, Jayson Tatum just cares about winning. Does he care about money?
- [55:34]
Adam Kaufman
Of course.
- [55:34]
Brian Barrett
He wants to get paid. And is he willing to take that haircut, that hometown discount, to help facilitate building a team around him? I have no idea. Obviously, he hasn't been asked to do that yet. Does that come with the next contract? No clue. But right now, everything that he has exhibited and said and indicated is about winning.
- [55:56]
Evan Valenti
Yeah. And that's why it's awesome to be, like, the pillar of your franchise. And as we talked, we made the Tim Duncan comparison all the time. You don't hear from him. He just, you know, comes shows up, does his job, and then goes hangs out with Deuce. And. And. And that's it. It's great. The. No drama, the. None of that stuff. I. I appreciate. I've always appreciated that. I've been saying this for years. It's just.
- [56:14]
Brian Barrett
Don't discount Dylan. He's hanging out with Dylan, too.
- [56:17]
Evan Valenti
Yeah. Honestly, the. The point. The. What's crazy is, like, I forgot. I know he has a second child. I. And if we all. We even know who, like, who it's with. I just totally forgot his name. Like, we don't even hear about him like, ever. At all. At all. So it's like, I respect the fact that he keeps a lot of things private, but, you know, the bigger point of you don't use these two teams as a way to construct your next championship team, because it's. It's got to be a different way. And that's. Maybe that's the beauty of the cba. It's like everything's going to be different. Every team's going to be different. But I don't know. This is the murkiest time right now that we've had in a while, I think, trying to figure out what Boston's going to really do. And maybe that's why it's so exciting. And that's why all these people, like, want to listen to podcasts and. And read articles and stuff, because there's so much intrigue around the league of how certain teams are going to build going forward. But Boston's paths, it's not. It's not a lot of them, but there's very. Some very interesting. Like the Rudy Gobert thing. This morning, I was like, you know what? I love Derek White, but I could see why you'd want to do that. Like, I could see bringing him in Giving Pritchard the car keys, you know, and saying, you know, look, Pritchard was our like, bear. How many times did you attacks during the season? Like, Richard ISO is maybe the best, like points perception shot in the league right now.
- [57:30]
Brian Barrett
Like, this is insane.
- [57:31]
Evan Valenti
So I don't know, maybe that's, maybe that's part of it.
- [57:34]
Adam Kaufman
Well, it's crazy too because I think about it, if you look at when they had Porzingis, how good they were just like funneling guys to Porzingis. And Porzingis, when he was on the court, would block shots at the rim, where you're like, oh, are they going to take advantage of Porzingis and switches? It's like, no, they're just not going to ever have Porzingis switch. Now, occasionally they would if they want to, like get the ball out of the ball handler's hand, but they're going to have him sag back, be in drop coverage. And yeah, you want to take a pull up to go ahead and do it, but you're not getting all the way to the rim. And then you look at what Rudy Gobert, who's been, until Wemby got into the league, he was like the best rim protector for the past decade in the NBA. It does make sense from that perspective. But just like circling back to the Jalen thing, the only example that I can think of is when Jordan was out of the league and Pippen finished, I believe, third in the MVP in 93, 94, it was his team. They of course end up losing. And Pippen has that bad moment where he doesn't want to go back out on the court and take the shot. Not to say Jalen ever had anything because they weren't. They were drawn up to play to KU coach, remember that. And like he didn't go back out on the floor as the whole controversy they covered in the last dance. But the difference between in those two things is Pippen was playing with the greatest player in the history of the sport that was the most popular maybe person in the world at that particular point in time with Michael Jordan, post Dream Team and all that. And the gap between, even if Pippen was the third guy in terms of the MVP race, the gap between Pippin and Jordan was incredibly wide. Jalen probably looks at it and says, I believe. And I'm not saying he's going to say this publicly, although who knows based on the streaming that he's doing, I mean, it may slip in one of these streams. He clearly believes he's a better player than Tatum, like, I think he thinks he's better than Tatum now. I totally, I disagree with that. I think Tatum's the better player. But in no world when Jordan was coming back was Pippin. Like, you know what, I actually think it should be my team. It shouldn't be Jordan Steamwin. Jalen can't convince himself that he, like we said, he did win those MVPs, even though I disagree that he should. I thought Tatum should have got the finals mvp, but he won Eastern Conference finals mvp. One Finals mvp. He was second team all NBA this season. He probably can convince himself that he's a better player than Tatum. So that's the only like comparison. And even that comparison doesn't quite work. That's why I do think the Jalen situation is such a fascinating one. And Valenti mentioned the contractor Udikov and I forget but like, what if you say like, yeah, technically you don't have to offer it to him. He's still under contract for three years. I wouldn't offer it to him, but I don't know the interpersonal dynamic there. What if you don't offer it to him? Because if you do offer them, that may make it tougher to move Jalen in the future. If you ever want to. Like, if you don't do it this off season and eventually say we're moving on from Jalen because we're talking about what is 34 and 35 year old seasons that he's going to be able to contract, but you don't know, like, is Jalen going to be like, well, why aren't you giving me that contract? I heard the rumors in the offseason you may be trading me. You don't give me the contract extension. How does he feel about that? So I don't think it's just the honest situation now. Like, I think they really have an interesting, I guess dilemma is the wrong word, but an interesting question on their hands this offseason as pertains to Jalen.
- [60:34]
Brian Barrett
Yes.
- [60:34]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, I, I think before we wrap here, because I think we've been going for an hour, we should probably. With the draft on Tuesday. Barrett, you got a favorite guy at 27 that is, you know, peaking your interest. I have, I have a guy that I really like. This kid Joshua Jefferson out of Iowa State is I think intriguing enough to me where he's a really good defensive player, really good rebounder, steals, steel rate, block rates are all really, really great. Can maybe play a little bit of four, maybe a small ball five. But a very versatile defensive piece and we can maybe hit some threes. I, I, I'm, I've talked myself into that. At 27, you never know. Never gonna get, you get Hugo Gonzalez. You could get, you get paid Pritchard at that spot. Like they've, they've, they found guys there that have been, that have been good. But do you have a guy that you like more than others?
- [61:27]
Adam Kaufman
Not really. I mean like even last year I wanted Reyno. Like when they were going into the draft. The kid the Kings took. Of course the big man who did put up some numbers at the end of the season. But Hugo Gonzalez was not even close to my radar. I think my biggest question is going to be with the Celtics entering this draft. First of all is do they have the pick? I mean things could change in the next week and change here. But more importantly is if you look at Brad Stevens last three drafts, they've all been sort of wing guys in that area. Now I know technically Walsh is a second round pick but remember they had that first round pick and they traded back into, they traded into the second round and picked up those seconds. But I feel like they were, they knew who they wanted there. The guy wasn't there, they traded back, they get Jordan Walsh. The next year they do it again where they take a guy that is sort of a swing man type player in Shireman and this past season they took Ugo. I think if you look at it from. I think there's two things that you could look at. A big man or sort of a guard. Because there's not a lot of depth on the guard line right now like Pritchard, we'll see what happens with his extension. But Derrick White, as we mentioned earlier, getting up there in age. Obviously Simons went out in the deal for Vucevich, so you really don't have a lot of depth on the guard line right now because even Ron Harper is more of a swing. So I mean you look at that. We've been talking about the depth behind Jalen and Tatum for so long. You have all these wings. Even Hauser is still on the team right now. So I don't think they have to go in that direction. As ideal as that position has been for them in terms of just having depth there and trying to build that up. So the one guy that keeps slipping in the draft that I was interested in like before the season just because, and he's kind of fits like the power forward slash, small forward thing, the co opied thing has been fascinating because he was one of the big Time prospects. Not that he was on the debanza Boozer.
- [63:10]
Brian Barrett
And
- [63:12]
Adam Kaufman
who am I missing?
- [63:14]
Brian Barrett
Peterson.
- [63:14]
Adam Kaufman
Peterson, Peterson, Peterson, right. Not that he was in like their group coming out of high school, but he was like a big time recruitment. He didn't have a great season at Arizona. And then like leading up to this whole process, he's like changing his shot, which is kind of weird.
- [63:29]
Evan Valenti
I hate that.
- [63:30]
Adam Kaufman
Like never like that you've been shooting the ball. And not that he was a great shooter, but at least he could like knock down some mid range shots. But I'm interested to see where he like falls down because this would have been. This is not sort of the Brad Stevens front office type of guy, but this is a Danny Ainge type of guy where it's like that high pedigree guy that maybe didn't have the best time at the collegiate level. And actually Jordan Walsh kind of fit that. He was a highly recruited player coming out when he went to Arkansas. So that is an interesting guy. I don't think they'll take him there, but we'll see. I, I could see Stevens again going overseas because I. That's one thing we didn't know about Brad. He has been really good at this. I know that none of those guys are stars, but you're drafting at the back end of the first round. He's done a fairly good job.
- [64:10]
Brian Barrett
I'm just curious if the, you know, because again the rumors have been out there if the Celtics are actually looking to move up, you know, if that's something that's going to happen. Get yourself into a, you know, a potential lottery position. Now obviously in order to do that, you know, you're moving something substantial. So we'll see.
- [64:27]
Adam Kaufman
But you know what's interesting about that Kaufman is if you think about it the way that the draft's constructed, the reason I think maybe that hap or it could happen or that rumors out there look at like the picks after the big four in the draft. After Caleb Wilson. Yeah, like all those guys are guards. So maybe they see some value moving up like somewhere between like say 13 and 17. Because they're saying, well this player is left over because the guards took over sort of that 5 to say 10 range. And we'll see what the Clippers do because obviously they have Garland. There's a lot of point guards there. But like Nate Ament, I'm not the biggest fan of him. Like that's a guy that had a high profile coming out as well. But maybe they see some value in like a big or maybe they think they can get one of the bigs or get somebody else at that particular juncture just because of the fact all those guards are coming off the board and guys are sort of getting backtracked to where they ordinarily would be. I think it's going to be a fascinating draft. I don't even think we definitely, definitely know that the Vance is going number one at this point. Like I wouldn't be shocked if all of a sudden they keep having Peterson in for workouts so they're at least doing everything they possibly can to rule them out. I think Tuesday is going to be fascinating. Although I, I much prefer a Thursday draft than a Tuesday. That's a different conversation.
- [65:34]
Brian Barrett
Yeah, there is that too. I, I don't. Look, I'm, I'm not a draft guru. I'm not a nut. There are plenty of people that, that know this stuff better than me. That being said, I, I, I do feel anyway that if you're not taking Debons in number one, you're making a mistake. So I'll, I'll be curious to see how that plays itself out not only in the draft obviously, but over the course of these guys careers because it's easy to go back in time. I mean a million people would have said the exact same thing about Markel Fultz. Look how that turned out. But boy, Tabanza just looks real, looks fun. So I'd be curious to see how that, you know, all again plays itself itself out. But more than that because that has no impact on the Celtics unless the local kid one day plays for his Boston franchise in his career. Giannis, watch white watch, brown watch all these guys leading into the draft. Will we see any meaningful movement? Are we going to get that, you know, that shams bomb that's you know, alert from somebody in the next few days about a meaningful deal that the Boston Celtics have made or is it going to be smaller build around the fringes type stuff throughout this offseason with free agency right around the corner. So again we'll be here on Celtics beat telling you all about it, breaking it down in, in real time and looking forward to doing so. Barrett, thanks for stopping by, buddy.
- [66:52]
Adam Kaufman
Anytime. And all Celtics fans cheer for the Mavericks to mess up their pick and mess up their off season because we're getting closer and closer to the second contract for Cooper Flag. Okay, keep just cheer for everything to go wrong for Cooper Flag's team chair, for him to be successful, but everything for the team to go wrong.
- [67:07]
Brian Barrett
I mean how often is the dude in Boston doing, like, you know, stuff with New Balance, like, let's just make it happen. Just get here. Cooper, we need you.
- [67:16]
Adam Kaufman
Need you.