683: Boston's Big Bet Against Jaylen Brown w/ John Zannis

Summary

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Celtics Beat Episode 683: "Boston's Big Bet Against Jaylen Brown" with John Zannis (July 3, 2026)

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Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode breaks down the stunning trade of Jaylen Brown from the Boston Celtics to the Philadelphia 76ers, arguably the franchise’s most dramatic move since the mid-2000s. Host Evan Valenti and guest John Zannis (Garden Report, CLNS Media) dissect what prompted Boston’s decision, question the return package of Paul George and picks, and debate Brown's true value amid an analytics-versus-narrative storm. The conversation explores implications for team-building, the new CBA’s salary cap mechanics, Celtics’ ownership, and the future of both franchises.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Shock of the Jaylen Brown Trade (03:01 – 07:26)

• The Celtics trading Brown had become “a foregone conclusion,” but the specifics of the return—Paul George, future draft picks—left fans and even analysts shocked.
• John Zannis: “The story has now changed from the Celtics moving on from Jaylen Brown … to what the f*** just happened here.” (03:25)
• The return did not match fan or media expectations; very few anticipated Boston getting “these parts, and so few.”

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2. The Big Bet: Boston’s Calculation (07:26 – 11:33)

• Evan frames the deal as a massive organizational bet on Brown’s future—particularly, a skepticism of his long-term value relative to his supermax contract.
• Evan: “This feels like the Celtics telling the world Jalen’s not that good, and you’re all about to find out why.” (07:27)
• Both hosts agree the trade is “not a straight salary dump.” Celtics shed a burdensome future commitment, but only gain modest cap flexibility.

Notable Exchange

• Zannis: “If you look at it dispassionately from a business standpoint, I understand thinking of getting off of him. … But it’s not like you traded for an expiring.” (07:37–10:36)
• They argue the landscape for “supermax but not true top-10” players is dire—see Julius Randle’s contract—making Brown a depreciating asset.

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3. Was This Trade About More Than Basketball? (11:33 – 17:38)

• Speculation about behind-the-scenes factors: was there friction with Brad Stevens, Joe Mazzulla, ownership, or—most pointedly—Jayson Tatum?
• Zannis: “If there’s more to it than basketball and/or financial … the most likely scenario is there’s something really going on beyond the scenes where this Tatum and Brown thing is bad and it's going to get worse.” (16:35)

Memorable Quote

• Evan: “You can’t convince me he didn’t ask out for this.” (14:04)

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4. The Analytics Civil War (20:05 – 37:04)

• Deep dive into Brown’s impact metrics: On/Off splits, win shares, advanced stats.
• Evan quotes Tom Haberstroh’s stat: “In games during which Brown suited up, the Celtics outscored opponents by 9.4 points per 100 possessions—with Brown on the bench.” (21:51)
• Zannis: “This has always been the case with Brown … he’s been underwater on these metrics … it is bringing you down a little bit here.” (24:43–27:26)
• Discussion of the “narrative versus analytics” divide among fans, media, and even inside the Boston front office.
• Both emphasize how analytics are “an audit on what your eyes see,” not a replacement for context.

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5. Brown’s Legacy vs. Actual Impact (37:04 – 39:08)

• Debating how Brown ranks in Celtics history—his number is “going in the rafters,” but his on-court value may have been overestimated.
• Evan: “What I don’t want to have happen … is everybody act like Jalen Brown isn’t one of the greatest Celtics to ever lace him up. … His number’s going in the rafters, he’s an NBA champion, Finals MVP, all that stuff.” (34:10)
• Both agree: legacy is secure, but “when you’re talking about how am I building a winner today, it’s very relevant (to look at analytics).” (37:04)

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6. “The Nomar Trade” and the New CBA’s Shadow (39:08 – 45:23)

• Explicit comparison to the Red Sox trading Nomar Garciaparra: a franchise favorite gone because he didn’t fit the future.
• The new CBA’s “second apron” and much stronger luxury tax penalties are a massive influence.
• Zannis: “They all got together, built a system that they did put penalties in place, but this gives them cover … for not spending.” (42:49)
• Not a “cheap-out” by ownership, but a forced correction in how rosters are built.

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7. Evaluating the Return – Paul George’s Fit (49:20 – 54:56)

• Paul George: elite as a catch-and-shoot (42%) and corner three-point shooter (45%+), a strong defender, and a seamless fit next to Tatum.
• Less friction for offensive role; clear pecking order (“everyone knows Tatum is the hub”).
• The risk is George’s age and health—if he only plays ~25 games, “this is going to look worse.”
• Zannis: “I thought Jalen and Jason … were ill fitting. It was—they did not fit well together.” (54:56)

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8. No Love Lost? The Tatum-Brown Dynamic (55:33 – 60:39)

• Absence of any public comment from Tatum (or teammates/coaches) on Brown's exit is “weird.”
• Evan: “Not a single teammate, coach, nothing [in Jaylen's statement]. … That’s weird to me.” (56:15)
• Zannis: “At best, they tolerate each other. At worst, they really don’t like each other. … I’d think … anything—a teary face emoji—could have gone a long way here. Didn’t happen.” (57:31)
• Both predict eventual polite statements post-trade but see the silence as telling.

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9. Boston’s Next Steps and the Ugo Leap (60:49 – 61:59)

• Optimism about Ugo Gonzalez’s breakout; comparisons to Derrick White’s impact.
• Zannis: “I think he’s going to be great … an extremely valuable night in, night out contributor, sooner than later.” (60:57)
• Cautious optimism about the new group, but recognition that the emotional “Jays era” is officially over.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The story has now changed from the Celtics moving on from Jaylen Brown … to what the f* just happened here.”** — John Zannis (03:25)
• “This feels like the Celtics telling the world Jalen’s not that good, and you’re all about to find out why.” — Evan Valenti (07:27)
• “If your friend did some of the things that Jaylen Brown did or said … you’d be like, What’s wrong with this dude?” — Zannis, on Brown’s “breadcrumbs” of discontent (14:08)
• “I don’t think [the Tatum-Brown relationship] is good—a good bit worse than we think instead of a good bit better than it appears.” — Zannis (16:35)
• “Jaylen Brown is going to be remembered as an all-time great Celtic. Jaylen Brown also, I don’t think, was nearly as good as many people thought he was in terms of how he impacted winning on the court.” — Zannis (37:04)
• “The Celtics probably are going to win the same amount or more games next season with this.” — Zannis predicting minimal impact on win total post-trade (47:54)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:01 – First reactions to the trade; instant fan and team shock
• 07:26 – Boston's bet against Jaylen Brown, financial and strategic reasoning
• 16:35 – Speculation on the Tatum-Brown relationship
• 21:51 – Analytical deep dive on Brown’s on/off splits
• 34:10 – Brown’s legacy in Celtics history
• 39:08 – Comparing the trade to Nomar Garciaparra; shifting salary cap landscape
• 49:20 – Analyzing Paul George’s fit and strengths; win projection post-trade
• 55:33 – Is it weird Tatum hasn’t said anything?
• 60:49 – “Ugo Leap” optimism and the future

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Tone & Language

Casual, occasionally irreverent, and thoroughly “inside Celtics” — both guests drop in pop culture, self-aware jokes, and “therapy session” vibes for a shocked fanbase. The dialogue is passionate but rooted in data, open speculation, and deep knowledge of the Celtics/NBA.

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Bottom Line

This episode is must-listen therapy and analysis for Celtics fans processing a franchise-altering transaction. It pulls no punches about the cold business behind the move, why the old “Jay’s era” was ultimately unsustainable, and how Boston—despite emotional cost—might emerge just fine, if not better, on the other side. The show closes with hope for the new era and a tip of the cap to Jaylen Brown’s place in franchise lore:

"Jaylen Brown is going to be remembered as an all time great Celtic… but I get what they're doing and why they're doing it." (37:04)

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Transcript

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hey, it's Bill from the Bill Simmons podcast. FIFA World Cup 26 fans, listen up. Is the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26. Michelob Ultra is giving away $1 million worth of FIFA World Cup 26 tickets and prizes. Enter now at michelobulture.com superioraccess/faworldcup 26 Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 Superior Access no purchase necessary. Opening US residents 21+ begins on December 1, 2025 ends on July 31, 2026. Multiple entry periods. Visit www.mcglob ultra.com superioraccess15 up2.6 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. Today is Thursday, July 2, and this is Celtics be UNCLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage. The Boston Celtics. I'm in Valenti no Adam Kaufman this week. He is on vacation. Episode 683 features CLS Media's very own John Zanis, and today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of C CLNS Media. Download the app today, use the promo code CLNS and get $50 lineups when you play. $5. Well, I'm not gonna lie, folks, when Adam and I talked about doing the show this upcoming week and as soon as this happened, we did not anticipate this happening. But let me tell you, when Cough went on vacation, he did not think missing out on the Jaylen Brown has finally been traded podcast. So with that in mind, I called in the heaviest hitter you could possibly call in here at Sentence Media. He is probably, I don't know, half the Garden Report, third of the Garden Report, a quarter of it. I know he he is A ginormous part of what is. I would call the most successful show on the network, on CLS media, the Garden Report. You guys, if you are a part of CNS media, you. What we do, you can go to this guy to my right. That's John Zayn. John, were you getting a colonoscopy when the Celtics traded Jalen Brown? Because I was not.

[A]

No, I was not. And I think Simmons might still be on that funny stuff, you know, with the. Everything he's tweeting today. Because, you know, all I gotta say is I was on my way. I was on my way out the door. This was a classic, like, news team assemble sort of moment. We were scattered. Everybody was. Jimmy was at work. Bobby was somewhere else. No. And, you know, we just. Everybody just quickly jumped in there. And again, I think we did two hours on the Garden Report. Evan, I don't even remember what I said because it was just there was so much to process all at once there. And, you know, because the return was so different than what people expected. I don't even know. Like, you know, as I said, is, I, I think everyone was just so shocked. The fact that Jalen was traded, I think had become a foregone conclusion for a lot of people. But I, you know, again, it's. The story has now changed from the Celtics moving on from Jalen Brown. And again it was either trade up for a star, like a Giannis do the, you know, Jalen for parts, which is something I'd advocated for years, but nobody expected them to be these parts. And so few. And so instead of talking about losing Jalen and what that means, it became what the f just happened here. And, you know, I think people, I've been, you know, I've been thinking about almost nothing but this since it happened. And, you know, my thoughts just keep evolving and developing here. But it really is interesting. And I had two hours, you know, a two hour crack at it already. So this is your first crack. Why don't you tell us what you're thinking here?

[B]

Well, let's. Let's do a couple of things first. First, make sure you subscribe to Clinics media on our YouTube page. Whether it's the, The. The main page. So there's all access page. Heck, even the guys on the Patriots page. Today we're talking about Jalen Brown. We're all over this Jalen Brown thing. So make sure you subscribe to that. Make sure you subscribe Southern speed on itunes. Spotify. Same for the Garden report. We want to get that out of the way. John, I I'm not gonna lie to you. I wore my best suit today. I wore. It is. It is the best. I know. I know you really went out of your way. I know that. This is it. I wore my best suit today because I just. This is a monumental occasion in in just content like this. This has been one of the craziest content. I'm gonna call it 48 hours here that I've seen in a while.

[A]

Yeah for those could be on a Netflix special somewhere down the road. You got to look good. You know we.

[B]

No idea. I just want to make sure I dress the part. But just for those of you that are living under a rock, maybe turned your phone off. I don't know. If you don't know the details by now. Southern straight at Jalen Brown of the Philadelphia 76ers. Details are the Celtics will receive Paul George in the trade along with a 2028 first rounder that could convert for being a first to a swap. It is more favorable for the Boston that sounds like the clippers pick a 2031 unprotected Philadelphia first and then two second round picks is all according to Shams who was all over this and broke everybody's phone. I would say mid mid evening Wednesday depending on where you live. Let's start here because he asked me a question. Now that we've removed oursel from and again you guys, I watched it this morning. You guys did an hour and 51 minutes of what the hell just happened here. Yeah. Now that we are removed from that chaos, the first thing that came to mind is is this is a ginormous bet against Jaylen Brown. This is the Celtics saying to everybody we given the dollar amount that is attached to Jaylen Brown's name, this, this particular individual who had a heck of a season last year, carried us to 50 plus wins, 6 of the MVP voting, second team, all NBA, an NVA champion, Finals MVP, all that stuff. The salary that is attached to this particular gentleman is so inhibiting on our ability to build a championship team around our best player that we are going to openly trade him to a division rival and get back what again, scanning the landscape everybody says is an absolute garbage return. Now, I am not totally in that category.

[A]

Yep, neither am I.

[B]

But to me this feels like the Celtics telling the world Jalen's not that good and you're all about to find out why. Where are you at?

[A]

So I, I agree and disagree. I do believe that if you look at the entire picture of what Jaylen Brown is and that includes on court, off court salary, individual ability, how he impacts winning, how he plays, does he play well with others, all of those things. I think very clearly the Celtics looked at it and said, if I don't get out now, this is going to be. His name won't be Jaylen Brown anymore. He'll be known as Jaylen Brown's contract. Meaning next year you might be attaching a pick to this, you know, two years later, who the hell knows what you would have to do to get off it? Plus, you're dealing with a guy who you chose not to extend, which I'm guessing they would not have. And then he would watch Jayson Tatum get his extension a year from now and be like, dude, what? And. And just. It would be an untenable situation. So if you know you're not going forth beyond his existing contract and you know that that's going to be a problem. That plus everything else that you kind of spoke about, there is decision time. What are we going to do here? And if you look at it dispassionately from a business standpoint, I understand thinking of getting off of him. However, it's hard to look at this as a straight salary dump because it's not like you traded for an expiring. You traded three years of Jalen for two years of Paul George, and you saved yourselves 3 million in year one and 5 million in year two. And then obviously you're clear from it in year three. So it's not massive savings. And therefore you can't be super creative with your roster building there. So that kind of raises the question, Evan, is there more to it? So I think a lot of people are. Spent their days, you know, their last 24 hours or, you know, whatever. What. What's going on? What don't we know behind the scenes? Friction with Brad, friction with Joe, friction with Tatum. Is there stuff that they really didn't like that they were keeping under their belt and all of that stuff? I don't know. I'm kind of waiting to see if there's more, but if there's not, I can actually live with the rationale that, yeah, we just don't want. We think he's going to age poorly. As you said, it's a bet against him. We're not, you know, we think this asset is going to depreciate greatly if we hold on to it any longer. This is our only shot. Is it the best return in the world? No, but I kind of want out. And I'll take whatever you can get here. I just, I don't want this anymore. And I don't think they're saying Jalen's going to be bad this year or next year. I think they're saying, I don't think I'm going to ride Tatum and Brown at the money that they're making for the next five, six, seven years through their extensions and, and, and, and, and be competitive anymore. And once they made up their mind on that, then they just had to move because like I said, you wait any longer and I don't think he's even worth what you got here.

[B]

We'll get, we'll get to some of like the on off stuff because there's, there's a little bit there.

[A]

But that's the landscape, though. I said this on the Garden Report right now. A supermax player that is not truly a top 10 player in the NBA. And I don't believe, I honestly think five, six, seven guys total deserve that supermax deal. And everyone else is a bit of an albatross on your books in today's business. You know, that's Brown's curse there. You know, I mean, look at like a Julius Randle type guy. You know, like he makes one all NBA and you got to pay him a boatload of money. Those guys are not worth going to get aggressively and giving up lots of assets and younger assets and affordable assets if you're team building. So I'm not shocked that a lot of teams didn't want to go in on Brown here at all. This is one of the worst assets you can have in the NBA now. A supermax guy in and around 30 years old who isn't truly an, an automatic, you know, all NBA year after year sort of guy.

[B]

Yeah. And I agree with that. There's, there's a lot with this. Right. So there's. You want to talk about the stuff that's starting to come out? Oh, he's too smart. We always go back to the.

[A]

I hate that.

[B]

Yeah, it's really annoying. It's like, you know what? It's awesome that he's smart and he has little. He has a lot of interest off the court and stuff like that.

[A]

That drives me nuts.

[B]

Yeah, the streaming stuff. Oh, it's starting to affect the, the front office a little bit. So you traded for a podcaster. So you traded for a podcaster, like. And I. And Philly fans will take a lot of credit for bullying Paul George off the podcast for a while. If you think Philly's gonna do that, Boston do the same Thing just could tell you, but. So they trade for a podcast. I don't think it's. I don't think it's that. I think maybe, like. And. And I. I am. Maybe I'm. I'm absolutely. I'm not. Maybe. I'm absolutely projecting here. There's a lot of people like, oh, he didn't ask out for. You're seeing that a lot. He didn't ask out. He didn't ask out. He didn't ask out. I got a. I got a funny feeling about that. I. I don't think we'll ever know. It's like the Malcolm Butler thing. Why didn't Malcolm Butler ever play in the super bowl against the Philadelphia Eagles? Why didn't he ever play? You're never going to know the answer to that question. Because Bill Belichick Signet was grave. Everybody in the team probably is, too, and Malcolm's not going to say anything. I think we got a similar situation here. I do think that there was conversations about after the Giannis stuff came out, and I think it's the reason why you saw guys like Gary Washburn and guys like that grab their phones and tweet immediately, well, this isn't necessarily for Brown. It could be for other parts. Everybody in the world knew that. This is for Jalen Brown. It has to be for Jaylen Brown. There's no other way around. Unless you're going to throw Derrick White, Peyton Pritchard, Sam Houser and all these guys into this deal. It has to be for Jalen Brown. I think Jalen got a little tired of being the guy that's always offered in deals, being the guy that just sacrificed as much as he has for this team over the 10 years he's been here, whether it's sacrificing usage rate or sacrificing being the guy while Tatum's gone and carrying the team. I think he's sick, all that stuff. And I think whether he publicly or did, I think he had enough. I think he wanted something new. I think the Celtics did him a solid by trading him to Philadelphia, a team that's going to contend and not send him to, like, the Sacramento Kings or. Or the New Orleans Pelicans did him solid. They gave him a chance to go win another title. But you can't convince me that. That I'll. I'll read all the reporting that you'll give me. You will never convince me that he didn't ask out for this.

[A]

This.

[B]

You'll just never do it. I know it's all pure projection, but you can't get.

[A]

Look, I. I think I don't want to take a shot at every Green team or Celtics fan out there who, like, you know, wants it to be the way they want it to be. But I do think people really struggle to read between the lines when it doesn't suit their, you know, beliefs or their agenda here. Like, the amount of things that you ignore that Jaylen Brown does and says. And big. I don't know if he meant that. Maybe he didn't mean this. He was just talking. I think it was taken out of context. Like, there's a. There are so many breadcrumbs here, you know, left along the way about how Jaylen Brown feels about every situation, and he kind of plays dumb as a fox with it. Like, who? Me. And narratives. And that's why I stream. Because you guys get it all wrong. And I'm sorry, like, if your friend did some of the things that, you know, Jaylen Brown did or said, some of the things, you'd be like, what's wrong with this dude? So, like, I just don't believe, you know, this. The narrative that Brown was okay with, you know, everything in his role and this and that. I mean, the. The. The times he's mentioned sacrifice, the times he's gone against Joe Missoula's playstyle, the times he's mentioned, like, disrespect, you know, the favorite season stuff, and then doubling down on it. Like, there's a. He's. If you're either smart or you're not. If you believe he's smart, he's smart enough to know, if not exactly what he means, smart enough to know how that stuff is going to land, and he's doing it anyway. So don't tell me he's not, you know, laying the groundwork here for certain things, whether it's asking out or just making it clear that, like, I'm kind of the guy here and you guys are missing it here. So he's been chirping pretty loudly about that stuff. Whether he went and directly asked out, I still don't know. I'm gonna. If I'm gonna do what you just did and kind of speculate as to if there's an untold thing we don't know about, I think it has to be some sort of relationship situation. And again, I've mentioned the Tatum and Brown stuff a bunch of times. I've always found it incredibly weird. And I'm amazed how many people defend it, like, they're fine. They're cool. They don't have to be boys. Maybe not. But it, I think it's more likely than not a good bit worse than we think instead of a good bit better than it appears. And I've always thought so. And if you look at it, if it was a problem, just process of elimination. If there's something going on behind the scenes, okay, let's just start crossing people off the list. Brad does not appear to have a Jalen problem and Jalen appears to have great amount of respect for Brad and he said so even recently on his Twitch stream when some of that stuff came up and Brad had to answer for it and he said it was, you know, he felt really bad about it. If it was Joe Missoula, Joe's gone. Okay. Coaches don't survive squabbles with superstar players if the team really wants a superstar run. So what's left at this point? Either ownership says I don't want you paying that guy $70 million or the top player on the team really doesn't want to play with Jaylen Brown anymore. I don't know if it's true, but if there is more to it than basketball and or financial and team building situations, those are the two. The most likely scenario is there's something really going on beyond the scenes where this Tatum and Brown thing is bad and it's going to get worse and I don't like it and Tatum doesn't like it and it's messing with the team and we've got to move past it once and for all. And again, I don't know, dead speculation. But if you're gunned in my head, what's the weird thing going on we don't know about yet? That would be my. That would be my bet.

[B]

Yeah. And I wonder if we ever even find out about that. We're going to come back at way more to get to with this, obviously. 10 years Jaylen Brown. We're not going to do it in 15 minutes, but coming up after the breakout, a lot more to get to. But first we're going to take a quick break. Thanks to our friends over at Prize Picks. It's a scorching sports summer and you can make all your picks on Prize Picks. The WNBA and baseball are heating up with big tennis slams and major golf tournaments on the horizon. You can make your picks for all these events all summer long on Prize Picks. America's number one sports pick app in the entire summer of soccer is on Prize picks all 48 countries in every matchup. And if you Rep your side during the tournament on prize picks. You can win a trip to the final four in New York. It's the biggest tournament ever, which means there's even more opportunities to cash in while you root for your favorite sides and global soccer stars. We have our flex play Friday coming a little early for the big soccer tournament. We're going to start with Messi. The man, the myth, the legend. This has just been an easy lock, folks. Just keep taking the less than, less than for Messi. 52 and a half passes last five matches all under that number and some by considerable margin. We're also going to take control of of guys that are doing real well. Mbappe, we're going to take him more than a half a goal and we'll take Holland more than half a goal. Those have been easy. Don't have to sweat this out. This seems pretty simple and we know with flex play if I hit all three, I'm gonna 3.6x my money this time. If it's two out of three, get my most of my money back. So I get my money back. That's what matters. Like it's an easy win for me because at the end of the day I can't lose and neither can you. So make sure you sign up for prize picks today. Just download the app and use the code CLNs to get $50 in lineups when you play your first five dollar lineup again, that's CLNs after you download the Prize Picks app to get $50 in lineups after you play your first five dollars. Back to the show back here on Celtics feed. Evan Valenti, John Zanis, two guys from CNS media giving you as much as you could possibly get from Jalen Brown Content today again, if you're under a rock, jailer got traded. I think you all know this by now. As a guy that was like the I would call you the tip of the spear for the jade. The trade Jaylen Brown for parts. This could not be what you had in mind, John. There's no way.

[A]

No, no again. And I want to clarify that stance. All along I always believed that if you could get a haul meaning so a lot of the imagined deals Trey Murphy plus a player plus picks. I've always thought if you trade for the ascending player, you know and again I, I, I, I on the garden report I had recommended Halliburton before, before Halliburton blew up and before he was swapped for Sabonis, you know, maxi after year one players like that take take the take the leap of faith that. That guy's Edgecomb. Whatever. Decide. I love that guy, you know, Ace Bailey, great. I think Ace Bailey's going to be J. I don't. I'm just saying, I think Ace Bailey's going to be Jalen Brown in two years. Let's see if I can pry him lose, whatever that is. That's what I always thought is get basically all of the Jaylen trades he was almost a part of when he was younger. Make one of those if now. But he's in the. He's. He's in the Anthony Davis role, you know, or. Or. Or the Kawhi Leonard role or the Paul George, ironically enough, role of. You're trying to roll him up into them, you know, and teams were coming at. At guys like that, and the Celtics held on, and that was with the old cba. So I guess that was my. I always thought. And again, I don't value Brown as much as a lot of other people do. I think he does some things extremely well. But I think you can recreate what he does,

[B]

you know, in the aggregate. Right. You're doing the Moneyball thing. You're doing this.

[A]

I've said it a billion times. I didn't want to say it again,

[B]

but yeah, no, you're doing that. And there's definitely. There's definitely value in that. But this is definitely not that. This is not the let's get a

[A]

couple and get younger.

[B]

Yeah, but this. This is definitely. This is the opposite of that. I mean, this is bringing in an older asset at 30. No, this is with a sizable contract and maybe some picks that maybe. Maybe will be good. Maybe won't. We don't even know yet. But as you look at this whole thing, the. The big. I guess the big winner or the big loser, depending on what side you're on. Here from all this is the analytics guys, because everybody in their mother has been trying to tell everybody that's been paying attention. I mean, everybody, like, if you follow the Celtics and you're on Twitter and you're reading articles, you're consuming content, obviously, this is. This is. This is for you. But everyone's like, you know, Jalen's. The on off stuff's not really there. And as you know it. Trying to wrap my head around this thing, it's 11 o'. Clock. Team USA just won. I feel way better about my life after. After Jalen gets traded and then TBSA wins, I'm like, all right, I'm obviously still hyped up. I can do some research. So last night Tom Haberstroke, Iowa Sports, had a really great article, really great piece about this and you know, he, he basically outlines why the Celtics did not get nearly as much back for Jalen Brown as a lot of people thought. And he cited some examples. I'm going to just quote the article. Quote. But even those games that Brown did play, a funny thing occurred. Good stuff tended to happen when he hit the bench. We don't have to look too far to see that Trend. A game seven against Philly with Tatum sideline. Brown scored 33 points. Great game. But the team was minus 16 and 40 minutes. The Seas went on a 21 to 14 run. He was on the bench. The Sixers game seven followed the season long phenomenon of the Celtics performing extraordinary well when the face of the team was resting. In games during which Brown suited up, the Celtics outscored opponents by 9.4 points every 100 possessions. With Brown on the bench scoring a blistering 121.3 points per 100 possessions per play. By playstats.com so on the one hand, you have the one game, which I never. I think if you're going to try to evaluate anything in life, on one example, you are going to fail. However, the second graph of that is really compelling. Yeah. To a point. Of the system. And again, people are like, oh, guess what? They're, they're playing against the backups, they're not playing centers. That's why the on off stuff's better. Give me that for. If you want to do that for a couple of games, fine. The problem is that's an entire season of data in that respect. And the other respect, there are more seasons of data that suggest that Jalen Brown is actually negative on the team. Now this is where we all get into, where are you at with the analytics numbers? Because I know how I feel personally, I'll get into in a second. But how. Where are you at with this whole analytical revolution that has painted Jalen Brown to be not as good as what people watch? Yeah.

[A]

So I've talked about it a lot. What's funny is like, I don't, you know, I try really hard to understand them, you know, like it. So I really do because I think they're valuable. It's a valuable tool. And you know, you know, I tweeted this the other day and I talked about it like, I really think people have it wrong, this idea that it's an either or or a combination of the two. I don't think so. I think it's an audit on what your eyes see. Okay, so you are. You're seeing it. And this kind of audits it and contextualizes it. So if you see something, for example, Derrick White, a lot of casual fans will be like, he sucked this year. But, like, all of his minutes resulted in positive outcomes. Like, he, He. He did more good than he did bad. But everybody's hanging their hat on a poor shooting season. Despite a poor shooting season, you could argue he had a better. Better overall season. It was more impactful to winning than Jalen Brown looking at several different metrics. So this has always been the case with Brown. And what. I don't. I think it's four straight years and like, six of the last eight or something, he's been underwater on these metrics. So. And don't quote me there, but I think I. I'd read that too, but I recently, when someone else had posted a similar article to Haverstros, just talking about, you know, just how been a conversation all season.

[B]

This has been a conversation beyond all season.

[A]

This is why I've been on this bandwagon for the trade Jalen. My thought was always, look, I do this in fantasy football. I get a guy who spikes, has a couple of big games, but it was. It was all like two long passes and a busted coverage. And I try to trade them immediately because I'm like, it's not sustainable crap

[B]

in the packers this year. You and me both, buddy. Trust me.

[A]

Immediately, I'm like, let's sell high. Sell high, Sell high. So my. My Jalen philosophy was always, if all it takes is one team to be like, this guy's my alpha, my North Star. I don't care what the analytics say. But it's been this way for a while, and I've always thought that, like, it is. It is bringing you down a little bit here. And his value is not nearly what people say. And that's why I feel like I'm pulling my hair out, because people are like, you're a hater. And I'm like, I don't think I am. I think I'm seeing it pretty clearly. I think he has terrific individual basketball ability, but his value on the court isn't as great as people, you know, say. And I. And I don't think he and Tatum are complimentary in any way. And I feel like I was taking crazy pills when people would, like, beat me back, you know, shout me down over that stuff, because the same people will use the same every analytic necessary to tell you why Derrick White is great, you know, and they did in year one when I was like, this guy sucks. And they're like, you're not looking at it closely enough, you know, because I'm

[B]

not gonna lie to you. I remember listening to you and Bobby after the, the, the, the finals games. You guys were clowning Derek White. I'd be on a walk with my dog. I'm like, I'm gonna kill these guys are driving me nuts. I remember. I honestly, this is, this is like ptsd. But I do remember being, being extremely angry to both of you for, for clowning on Derrick White, but for him to come back and totally redeem himself,

[A]

just totally redeem himself.

[B]

Like dumb and dumber.

[A]

But I get it. At that point, though, he hadn't shown me enough of the other stuff.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To think that. And also, it was so bad. It was untenable. I mean, we're talking like 21% from three point. It was, it was so, so, so bad. If he'd even shot. If his splits were like, they were this year, like 39, 30, and he did everything else that he's been doing, you'd be like, I see the impact, but he's got to shoot it better. But regardless, people will throw stats in your face to make a case for why somebody's great. But every Celtics fan, or so many Celtics fans seem to ignore it. With Jaylen Brown, I guess I'll flip it to you and ask why, Because I never understood it, so I'm following what smarter people are saying about it. Plus also what I would see, which is like, I just, I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing out here. And it seems like there's a lot of numbers to back up my viewpoint. And yet I was, you know, people like me were made to feel like we were haters for saying negative things about it. So I'll flip it. Like, I think you were more, more in the pro, Jalen.

[B]

Yeah, well, you're talking to a podcast that's been accusing, you know, Adam. The entire comment section is all on Adam for hating Jalen Brown. Yeah, I, I, I will be honest if it is a little bit of an emotional thing for me, only because, like, you know, I'm 36. I, I watched Jalen, you know, as a 19 year old. I'm 26, kind of like grow into a man. And so it's a little different. And there's a, there's accounting stats thing that we have to also kind of account for there.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, There are moments in time where you're like, wow, he's, he's, he's playing really well. But then you have these on off splits that suggest maybe he's not. So again, what does it tell you? You have to have a marriage of both of these things. But when you look at having the J's and one guy, you put four guys around them. I don't even care who they are. You put four guys around Jason Tatum, the, the outcome is net positive. And it has been this way for years. I've had the same running joke. You could take me, Kaufman, you and Bobby Manning and Jason Tatum and somehow Jason Tatum would have us at like a plus four. Like, I don't even know what, I don't, I don't know how to explain

[A]

it, no matter what. I mean, no. How much time, how many times has Tatum and the, and the bench in, in the, in the second quarter, flip the game? You know, like, you know, when he was healthy, frequently, you know, like.

[B]

And why do you think they love Hugo Gonzalez a lot? Why do you think that? Do you. Did you look at his plus minus numbers this year? They were outrageous. They were so crazy. At one point he was lapping the field like VJ Edgecomb turned it around and became a positive player. Dylan Harper, my goodness, love that guy. Would trade anybody for that guy. And, and you know, Cooper Flag obviously is amazing, but when you look at the stats at the end of the season, the plus minus numbers for Hugo Gonzalez were insane. He was double, triple guys. And so what they're saying is like, look, when Jason Tatum's on the floor, we don't care who's there. Good things happen. Derrick White has been a plus minus God since basically the 2022 finals. He was bad, so 20, 23. 23 insane.

[A]

He's been clearly the most valuable. He's the only one they have, though. They have the worst record when only White misses a game than any other single player, including Tatum, you know, they'd be closer to 500 in games. He was out. He is so integral to what they do. Ugo's another guy. Rob Williams, before that was another. But again, we're stuck in this weird world, Evan, where people are really kind of entrenched in, whether it's the counting stats or what they think their eyes see or what they think, there's value for all of the analytics or everyone's talking about the analytics revolution has ruined the game. I'm shocked how many people are still so leaning into very basic counting stats or things like awards voting, which is voted on by old Me, older media members who don't even watch these players play on a night in, night out basis. Like the amount of times I hear something like, he finished sixth in MVP voting.

[B]

What?

[A]

Who care? Is there a single front office type who, when they're evaluating talent and value of a particular player, like, well, he did finish sixth in MVP voting. That's not factoring into their thinking. There is. They have their own series of analytics and the ways that they view things that might be different than the way some of the media members do. And that's what they're using to judge whether or not the player has value. But like, you know, I want to read a couple of things from today which, which I just, I think are bonkers. Like, Jeff Goodman had, quote, tweeted something I said. He said it's perfectly fine to get out of the Jalen Brown business. I was never a huge fan of his game. Problem is you should have gotten peak value for him after the career season he just had. So he's saying these words. I'm not.

[B]

Sounds like he couldn't. Sounds like he couldn't give full value.

[A]

This might. This two things. This was peak value probably. And we're talking about a career season based on simply nothing but volume. There's nothing about his stats this year that tell you he was better than any other year. When you break them down, he just had higher usage and more volume, but he was pretty much the same guy. In fact, his assisted turnover ratio got worse this year with the ball in his hands more so like this. This idea that he transcended his game and elevated it is a myth, but people keep saying it as if it's a fact. And then Mannix wrote a column today and he wrote, brown is a star, a borderline superstar. Any numbers crunchers telling you otherwise are off. So now we're just punting on this stuff. Forget it. I know everyone is saying one thing. I'm just going to put it out there and say I disagree and continue on with my argument. And there's an insane amount of like big time media people who are having the conversation this way with this type of thinking. Jaylen Brown is really good and they should have gotten more for him and that's all they're thinking about here. So I find it so weird. Like we can't have, we can't move the conversation forward because people are locked into whatever it is that they think Jaylen Brown is to the Celtics and to the rest of the NBA.

[B]

I just want to point out for people who want to use MVP voting as an example of why Jaylen Brown is good. And I'm not saying Jaylen Brown is bad. I'm not. That's not my argument.

[A]

He's not bad.

[B]

Jaylen Brown finished sixth behind Kade Cunningham, Luka Donich, Wemby, Jokic and Shay. Right. There was a tie for seventh between Donovan Mitchell and Kawhi Leonard. Do you want to know who's not on this list that I think everybody in the world will take over? Jalen Brown. Jalen Brunson. Yeah. Jalen Brunson notoriously not on this list. Now, what I'll tell you is if you want to go stat heavy for just a second in terms of win shares on this list, Jalen Brown would be dead last on this list with 6.9 win shares. Just to prove a point for just a second, because I think everybody is now reframing what they think about Jalen Brunson after he wins an NBA title. And they should reframe Brunson win shares, 8.8. I mean, he's so. Look. Does it hurt? Absolutely. Am I happy they did it? Yes. Because I no longer have the agony of waiting every day for the shots. But if it's occasion to drop, I was done. I had had enough. I had actually punted on having any opinion on it anymore because I was sick of looking at it. But a couple of. Couple of things before, I want to move on very quickly. One, the analytics that the Celtics have the same as the rest of the NBA has, because clearly not a lot of people value Jalen Brown like fans do. Number two, I do think this contract extension was a big part of this thing. I don't want to think. I don't want to go out the entire, entire time without mentioning that the looming extension that Brian Winhorst did this on, I'm looking to see that if they offered him that extension, if they offered that extension, things are good. If they don't, things are gonna get weird. He was right. Very good. And the last thing I'll say before we move on, here comes via Dick Light, who we all love Jalen Brown and Sussex history. And I'm gonna just do the numbers. I won't go with, like the actual counting data. Jaylen Brown, Celtics history, regular season, is third all time in three pointer, seventh and steals 10 in points, 11th in field goals, 15th in games. In the playoffs, he's second, sixth in field goals, sixth in steals, seventh in points, seventh in games. What I don't want to have happen here, John, is everybody to Sit here and act like Jaylen Brown isn't one of the greatest Celtics to ever lace him up. His number's going in the rafters. He's an NBA champion. He's not as good as, as the Bird McHale parish teams. He's not as good as Hondo or, or any of those 56, any of that stuff. Where is he? He's with Paul and KG and Ray Allen. And guess what? That's totally fine because a lot of those guys are some of the top 75 players in the history of basketball. And I don't know if you have anything else to add to that, but we have to get the Brown in

[A]

terms of Jaylen Brown. Here's the thing is like no one's going to look at, look again. Much of these narratives are based off of kind of counting stats and a role on a team. You know, that he's, you know that he's played and how he, you know, how he's been perceived by fans along the way and the fact that he was part of a championship team and he won Finals MVP and all of those things. So his role is cemented. No one's going to be looking at analytics at the end of the day when they, when they're, when they're talking about his place in Celtics history. So I think it is cemented. But when you're talking about, okay, how am I building a winner today, it's very relevant. So, you know, the two things are separate. Jaylen Brown is going to be remembered as an all time great Celtic. Jalen Brown also, I don't think was nearly as good as many people thought he was in terms of how he impacted winning on the court. And people keep using specious reasoning to say, well, look at their record, that's great, but what you're missing is it's possible if you had replaced him with someone else in a different role, they might have even won more. You don't know that. So he doesn't get credit for all of the wins, but they are tacked onto his resume. So again, his legacy is intact. But right now I get what they're doing and why they're doing it. I just, as we said at the top of the show, I think we're so stuck on the return being so considerably less. And again, it keeps coming back to it. Evan. The difference is the perceived value versus actual value. And the perceived value was created by fans and media that speculated what someone like Jalen would get on the open market. And we were talking initially about stuff like Trey Murphy plus Murray plus four first round picks. And like now if you want Murphy, you got to go give them like three or four first rounders to. To get a player like that. So everyone was really off in where they thought this was going to go. And I think that's why we're dealing with the kind of super shock factor today. But yes, Brown's legacy is secure as an all time something. His number's going to hang in the rafters and he's going to go to the NBA hall of Fame. All of those things are.

[B]

Are.

[A]

Are certain, I think.

[B]

Yeah, no question. And I will say as we continue this like, discussion about it's a bet against Jaylen Brown. This is the biggest gamble of Stevens's tenure, his life probably. This is no more.

[A]

This. This is.

[B]

Yeah, this. I've seen this a lot today. This is the Nomar trade.

[A]

It is no more because it's. The return looks weird and it is unpopular and you traded a franchise favorite who the organization had soured on for a lot of reasons. There are a lot of parallels here, but you thought that you needed different things to win than what that person provided. It's very, very Nomar. And this was early in Theo's tenure. This is relatively early in Brad being a gm, but he's already got a championship under his belt, so he's got a lot of rope. But it is extremely risky in that same exact way, which is like if this blows up, it's gonna.

[B]

He.

[A]

This will be his legacy.

[B]

So it is a risky move for him, no question. But I do want to just get out real quick because I'm seeing this a little bit today and it's already driving me nuts. And I am not a guy that goes to bat for owners. I think those of you that watch this show, listen to me, maybe follow me on the Internet. Understand, I am not going to bat for owners. But what is driving me crazy is the people that are saying that Bill Chisholm is cheaping out. That's not what's happening here. Right? In the old cba, you could afford to have Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Drew Holiday, Kristaps Porzingis and Derrick White on the same team. Just as long as you're willing to pay the penalties. The penalties are much stricter under this new cba. James Dolan. Who? Look, I am not a James Dolan guy. Again, people probably know this, if you follow me. I'm not a Jim Dolan fan. He said right after they won the title, like literally during the parade, we're not going over the second apron. Like literally just won a title. First time in 53 years that the team has won anything and he punted. Like the Oklahoma City Thunder are going to start. I hear you like that all this stuff's going to start happening. And unfortunately they didn't. It's not like they didn't take a, a couple of smaller contracts back. No, they took back one of the worst contracts in the NBA. Paul George. He's making 50 plus million for the next two years. This is about how you cannot and this is going towards. And I think there's been a little bit of scuttle about this and Noah I think has even chimed in on this. Again, I'm not really sure to believe in terms of whether they're going to offer Giannis 30 or 35% of the cap. Like whatever. You cannot live in a world where you're. Where two guys make up 70% of the cap. It isn't feasible. The Knicks, by the way. Yeah. Yes. They have Carl Anthony towns who makes 50 million. Guess what? Everybody else makes way less than that in like considerably less than that.

[A]

Like a lot of 30s and 35s and 4, they got some big numbers there. But you're right.

[B]

Yeah, but, but you're not paying two guys. Like this is where the, the picks for me are interesting because you're telling me in 2728 you're going to be allocating like 160, 170 million to three dudes Embiid, Maxi and Jaylen. Now we'll see if they even like that's the thing. I don't think people are talking about.

[A]

I don't even

[B]

how long even beyond the Sixers.

[A]

Look at the usage stats for the players they have over there. Brown wants to be the man, your third fiddle behind Maxi and Embiid on that team right now. You know, and you've got, you've got Edgecomb coming up as well. Like he went to a worse situation in terms of having the ball and getting to dictate terms considerably worse.

[B]

And then they have this other guy, Vijay, who also needs the ball in his hands.

[A]

Exactly. On your ownership point, I. Two things. One, I, I agree to a point. And again, you're never. You, you're not going to find anybody who's more skeptical and anti owner either here. But I don't believe in the penalties. I believe that's a bit of gaslighting with the owners. They all got together, built a system that they did put penalties in place, but this gives them cover. For it gives them a lot of COVID for not spending because ultimately many of these decisions come down to money. If you are a championship level team and you're talking about running it back and you're not worried about the penalties that you might face or a draft pick getting kicked or blah, blah, blah and this and that, you just keep running it back because you're not, you don't need the stuff. I, oh, I don't have a mid level big deal. I got a super roster or you can live with, you know, there's certain things you can live with to go into the tax, but they'll keep saying that. And Wick laid the foundation before he traded, before he, you know, handed the, the team over. I, I can't see anybody ever going to, you hear so many people say it. I, it's clear they got in a room together and said anytime people talk about it, just talk about the punitive nature of the second apron and how no one's ever going to go over it again so none of us will have to. Where you're going to wonder where Bill Chisholm cheaped out or whether ownership is going to cheap out isn't with this move that they just made.

[B]

They've.

[A]

You've already seen it to an extent, Evan, where last year the moves that were made were clearly money saving moves. Whether that was for penalties, whether that was just simply to avoid tax dollars, but every move they made the vuce of its Simons selling off Minot, selling off Tillman, all of these things, everything was calculated. There was no, there was. That's where you knew, okay, this is being driven by money here. When they refuse to go, you know, past a certain threshold or when they're passing up player opportunities here or when they have an, when they have opportunities in the future to go over the tax and into that first apron again and they're opting not to, then you can start to say, okay, what's going on behind the scenes here? But this deal on its own here is simply, I don't want Jalen anymore, but I had to take the same amount of salary back here and it gives me a little bit of maneuverability and flexibility. But this isn't. People are getting this wrong when they're hammering. This must have been an ownership thing. You think Bill Chisholm went down to Brad and said trade Jalen for a guy making almost as much.

[B]

Yeah, right. No, I don't think there was.

[A]

No, no, I don't think that conversation was had there. Yeah.

[B]

No, this is about Getting what you could get. And again, the money being the same makes this a lot easier for everybody involved in. The one thing I think is, is hilarious to me is the people that again, commenting on how could they get, how couldn't they get more, how couldn't Brad get more? He's the executive of the year. What are we doing here? I think you're going to realize, again, we've said this a little bit, but this was the best they could do. Yeah, this is the best they could do. And, and you look around, how many teams want Jalen Brown and can afford that salary. Brad is the best they could do. I, I think a much more interesting thing and I sort of agree with the way the Celtics handled this. Do you think they should have gone all in on the Giannis deal? Knowing what we know now, should they have put Ugo and Baylor and all the picks and the swaps and the whatever to get Giannis on board? Because I don't think that's necessarily the plan either.

[A]

So the what if universe that people live in now is going to be. Those are the sliding doors. Right? Number one is if that's all you were getting for Jalen, why not keep him? And we've kind of gone over why. Because I think there's a lot of reasons why they didn't think having Jalen made them better and really restricted their ability to have a good team. You know, someone had put it, you know, one of the, you know, clever Celtics Twitter people out there, the Al Pacino, Horford guy or whatever it was, had put out that the Giannis was this all. It was always the plan to trade Jalen and try to get some pieces back and, and build and which is what I always thought. I thought that was plan A, not plan B. People viewed it as a pivot off of Giannis and I don't think so. I think the plan was explore what I can get for Jalen. But the Giannis was a potential get out, get out of jail free.

[B]

What?

[A]

Where it's like, well, I don't love two guys making the max here, but it's Giannis. So if I can do a pretty much a one for one swap because they don't like the Heat package, I'll dangle it. But as soon as the, you know, they started asking for young players, plus my guess is they weren't even particularly close. I don't think it was just Ugo and Shireman. I think it was Ugo and Shireman and two more first round picks. And at that point you're basically saying, I got two years to win another one, and then we're freaking dead and that's it. And I don't think they wanted to go down that road, so I don't believe they should have gone in on Giannis because I also don't believe this is the train wreck everybody thinks. The dirty little secret no one wants to talk about right now is the Celtics probably are going to win the same amount or more games next season with this.

[B]

You want to know what's funny? You look at espn. BET had this already. You know who has more? The over under is higher. The Sixers are the. The Celtics. Who has a higher over?

[A]

Celtics.

[B]

Yeah, Celtics.

[A]

I'm. Yeah.

[B]

They just traded their second best player in the division to their rival. And the Celtics still projected to win 50 games. I think it was the over under is 50 and a half, and I think the Sixers is 48 and a half.

[A]

I'm smashing that.

[B]

What is that?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, they just won 56 with Brown and not Tatum. So let's just do Tatum and not Brown this year, then add however much Paul George gives you, plus Mitchell Robinson, plus whatever you're getting from Conley and who knows what else you've made additions to this team, plus you're talking about potential leaps from guys like Charman and Ugo. I expect them to be better last year. It's just you don't have that thing to sink your teeth into, that one piece, which is like, oh, we got this guy back. And in another year or two. Oh, my God. What? What? You don't. You have basically two years of dealing with George and whatever it is that he's able to give you at this stage in his career, versus the three years of Jalen knowing you weren't necessarily going to resign him, and then kind of that. That stuff coming off the books and figuring out how you're going to build your team going forward from there. So it's not as bad in terms of what you're going to be seeing on the court next year as people think.

[B]

Yeah, I want to do. I do want to get into Paul George here. And I will wrap up the Brad segment. Just saying I find this very interesting because I think Brad, you know, has a lot. Has a long rope, a long leash here because he won a title. People are like, oh, he's. He's gonna get fired for this. No, he's not. Not gonna get fired for this. And if he does. If he does. Right. I think Brad Stevens is operating here like like the Teflon Don essentially. Like, dude, if I get. If I lose my job, you know how many colleges are going to be lining up for my service? And Brad is never going to have to worry about being out of a job for more than about 25 seconds. Every program in America if no, no NBA teams come calling, is going to come calling for Brad Stevens. So I can tell you right now, maybe that's a good reason why he made this trade because he knows his job security is totally fine. A lot of times when people trade superstars like this, it's your job's on the line, Brad's job's not in the line here. I do want to get into Paul George's fit because I don't think a lot of people are talking about that. And I get it, guys. Playoff. P36 I've made the joke. Maybe this HGH that he got busted for taking has done wonders for him. And he's. He's a totally new man now. I have no idea. Okay, here's what I'll tell you. I do know. I'll tell you that Paul George is an elite catch and shoot three point shooter and has been for years one of the best in the NBA. Last year he was 42% on catch and shoot threes on four and a half per game. Now why does that matter? Well, Boston shoots a ton of threes. Yeah. No. You know what else happens? They got a guy that, that gobbles up offensive rebounds and Mitchell Robinson, you know the best time to shoot a catch and shoot three is off offensive rebounds. Not only that, Jason Tatum clearly being a guy that can draw attention away from Paul George. He's probably going to have a couple of catch and shoot threes in those opportunities. He's also an elite 3 point corner shooter. He is above 45 from the corner threes. The thing that made Drew Holiday literally one of the greatest players in the NBA, the year they won the title, Drew Holiday was shooting what, 62% from the corners. The corner was insane. Yeah. Paul George six of the past seven years is above 45% from the corners six of the past seven years.

[A]

And he's not going to. About being in the corner.

[B]

He's. And there's. That was. Took my last point. You son of a. The best part about getting Paul George is there will not be friction on the court with Jason Tatum. There won't be friction there. Everybody knows. Derrick White knows. Ugo knows. Charman knows. Mitchell Robinson knows. Kaden knows. Paul George knows. Tatum is the hub of this offense, and that was going to be a little bit of a problem if they brought Giannis in, right? That was going to be. Well, how will they make this work out? I don't know. It's Giannis. They'll figure it out. He's Giannis. He's modern Shaq, we'll figure this one out. It's not a big deal. This is a little bit more of a, of a seamless. Paul George is 36. He knows that Jason Tatum's the guy on this team. He does. Paul George has nothing left to prove. And I will say this, I think Paul George will make Mitchell Robinson's life so much easier because between him and Tatum and Ugo and and Derrick White, a lot of people love Mitchell Robinson. I do too. And I think Joe Missoula is one of the biggest Mitchell Robinson fans on the planet. Mitchell Robinson, sometimes in space, not the best defensive player. However, Paul George is an elite defensive player still to this day. Now he's not the best defensive wing in the league anymore. That is gone.

[A]

No, but he's a versatile defender that you can bring in there. Yes.

[B]

He's a better team defender and he's a better overall defender than Jaylen Brown

[A]

and I will stick again. You know, we want to sit here. I don't want to keep crucifying, you know, Brown over, over that stuff, but I would say nothing bothered me more than this two way great, best two way player in the league stuff. Like, you know, that pisses me off if you're going to say it, but not do it. Especially if you're not going to do it because you're not going to put in the effort that it takes on that side of the ball to be a better overall defender. Like, could he every once in a while slap the floor and lock down another team's best player when he was motivated to do so?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Did he do it night in, night out? No. Not possession. Possession. Not even close. Okay. Honestly, a very subpar team defender and Paul George is going to be a more alert and attentive, you know, team defender. So that's fine. You know, you were throwing around those catch and shoot stats. You know, one of the great, we were talking about analytics earlier. One of the great catch all statistics right now is EPM estimated, you know, plus minus here. What do you think? What do you think? Who had a higher one? Paul George or, or Jalen Brown?

[B]

I, I had this going on last night. I, I, I, what I did was I did a little deeper on, uh, they're per 100. But what do you got for me?

[A]

It's dead even. It was dead even.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So again, is that the end all be all? No, I mean they were both slightly behind Anthony Edwards who's, you know, no one's going to argue is, you know, one of those. One of the better players in the NBA. But, but still, I'm not super worried about the on court as long as George can play some. If George goes out and plays 25 games next year, you're going to. This is going to look worse, right? So you need 55 games, 60 games out of this situation to feel a little bit better. If you don't get it, it's going to look bad and that's going to. That's going to affect him a little bit if he's healthy enough to play. I like the fit. I really do. I think it'll be fine because again, I thought Jalen and Jason and I've said for years and got yelled at a lot were ill fitting.

[B]

It just.

[A]

It was. They did not fit well together. It's just they were. They had such great individual talent that they could make it work. But I never thought it fit great. I also thought one of the great things with Jalen is when, you know, when shit goes bad, sometimes he can just put his head down and get you a bucket and sometimes that's all that you need. And when he would do that, it would be great also. But I'm not that concerned with how it's going to look. I think overall chances are if you're getting some healthy production out of Paul George, even at 36, they're going to be as good or probably better than last year and somewhere in the top two or three seeds in the East.

[B]

Let's end here. Is it weird that Tatum hasn't said anything yet? Is that weird to you or. No.

[A]

So again, I'll apply it to anything else in life. You know, if you just left now.

[B]

But I'll check Instagram right now because it's it currently. Just so Everybody knows, it's 6:18pm on the east coast, so everybody knows. I have not seen anything yet. So that's just. I'm gonna. While you're doing your thing, I'm gonna do some research and make sure I'm not.

[A]

I'll ask you another question. Has anybody said anything yet?

[B]

Well, if you go to. Well, Jalen did. But if you notice in Jalen State, single stuff. Not a single teammate, Coach, nothing. Which. Look, man, that's.

[A]

It's the city.

[B]

Fine that's that. And look, look. I. I do want to point out that the city of Boston definitely loves Jaylen Brown. There's. People want to paint this. Oh, they didn't love Jay. No, no, no, no. It might have been a little rocky at first. There's no question about it. And Donnie Wahlberg, friend of the show, helped Jalen bridge the gap with the city of Boston. And it's. And it's a. It's very harmonious. Jalen has done so much for the city. We love him for that. It is really weird to me that not one single teammate. Coach, nothing is in this statement. That's that and that. And this is where we come back to the. It's my. This was your favorite season of all time, but you can't name a single guy on the team to thank for helping you. Like, that's weird to me. And again, as I'm checking 619, I got nothing from. From Tatum. I. I don't think there's a single single. I mean, I'm looking at his Instagram. I saw Duke shooting the basketball earlier today, which we all love. I mean, more Deuce content, the better. But I. Good. Just nothing. Radio silence. And I think that's a little weird. And maybe they're. Maybe they're both trying to figure out how they're going to do this. They've been together for a long time. I don't know. But it is weird that they haven't said a single thing.

[A]

So I. I guess in this one, I'll go against what people might think. I'll say on this. Whether this is weird, I don't know, because maybe there is something. And any take you could have now would be negated if. If Tatum comes out and gives this flowery IG post about him and be like, okay, that felt kind of dumb. And he was waiting until it was official and X, Y, and Z. So, you know, maybe there's something there. I will say at all points in time throughout their relationship, you know, neither one really bailing the other person out when they were facing any sort of fire or scrutiny or anything like that has always been a little bit odd to me where Jalen, Jason Tatum would be very quick to congratulate someone for something that happened to them and be like, my boy, and blah, blah, blah. But for Jalen, you would never see it. It's always been weird, and it's always been why. I've thought that, like, at best, they tolerate each other. At worst, they really don't like each other. As opposed to, you know, what people wanted to say, which is, you know, what people kept saying to me is they're fine, they're professional, they respect each other, they don't have to be best friends, but they have a great. I don't believe, from what I've seen, they have a great relationship. So I'm not super shocked by it. Again, I'm not sure if it goes deeper than that, but I still think Tatum, out of respect, professionalism, decorum, and or any advice that he might get from other people around him, is going to say something nice eventually. And then the people who have always, you know, shouted down those of us who said that they don't, you know, they don't get along, will be like, see, he did say something. It wasn't Tatum. And then we'll be right back to square one. You know, that being said, I would think a little one, one little cryptic emoji of like a teary face, something, anything, could have gone a long way here. Didn't happen. So again, we'll see. Maybe something bigger comes out.

[B]

These are, these are two smart guys. They know what's going to happen if they don't say anything. They know that the longer I don't

[A]

say yes, I think, I believe they're

[B]

allowing people like me, like everybody else, to fill the space. Because you're not doing it. It.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

And I think distance will make the heart grow fonder in this where I think they'll be able to speak about each other in, in knowing that they're no longer, you know, fighting over the same scraps at the kitchen table with a little bit more, you know, respect and reverence going forward. So I actually wouldn't be surprised to see something down the road, as I will say, along the, along the way, anytime anything pops up, the stream, stuff that people were making a big deal of. Yeah. Tatum popping on the stream could have. Could a lot quiet. You could quiet a lot of narratives in smoke. And they've chose not, they chose not to at almost every step of the way throughout this. Yeah.

[B]

Think of the numbers that would have done. How do you not think about the numbers that you would have done if ha was you? Look, you, you work in the content industry, I work in the con, dude. The numbers you guys would have gotten by being the same stream would have been unbelievable.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Unbelievable. Two things. One, now that the Jaylen Brown saga is over, 10 year career was amazing. I appreciate the fact that back when he got drafted, he did answer my question. I was in the Audience so appreciate that. Number two. I don't know if you saw this today, Ugo, 16 points, five assists, five rebounds, two steals, a block in 20 minutes.

[A]

I did. I yelled at Noah for tweeting about it. Not now, Noah. We're still coping.

[B]

We're looking, we're looking for bright spots.

[A]

And he was awesome today. I'll tell you this. I don't know if Ugo is going to be all Star type of player, but Ugo being a Derrick White like contributor, which I think Corrales has hinted at, and he said he thinks White are better, I think that that's within the realm of realistic possibilities sooner than later. So I am actually a huge believer in the Ugo leap not to, not to be Tatum's number two, but to be an extremely valuable night in, night out contributor sooner than later. And I was kind of team like, yeah, I was never team Giannis to begin with, so when they drew lines, I, I actually was okay with it. I. Because, because I, I want to see where Ugo develops. I think that could be a really nice piece for you. So I, you know, I was joking about it with, with, with Noah and the people who are cheering it on today, but I, I love seeing that stuff. I really do. I, I think, I think he's going to be great.

[B]

He's. He is great. It's too bad we can't. We don't have a cool nickname for this next group of Celtics, like the Snow Time Lakers. That is just elite level stuff from Bill Simmons. That is just. Yeah, again, maybe it's the drugs that were. That hadn't worn off yet with the Snow Time. I heard that.

[A]

I heard that today and I laughed

[B]

for about a minute and a half. I thought that was bad. I was like, you know, because I was trying to come up with something. I was trying to do Whitest kids, you know that show from the. On Comedy Central.

[A]

Snow time is.

[B]

Snow time is really good. Tremendous stuff. So we're gonna get out of here. Make sure you subscribe to both my show, Our show, the CE podcast on iTunes on Spotify. Also make sure you subscribe to CNS Media's main page on YouTube. Garden reports there all the time there. Bobby Manning's doing Celtics Daily. He's on every single day.

[A]

I can't stop him.

[B]

He is ridiculous. He's relentless. He's ridiculous.

[A]

He's prodigious.

[B]

And not only that, we have the Patriots guys. My, I love the Patriots guys. It's going to be a great year at camp because we Have Mike Cadillac there. Taylor Kyle's there. We got Alex Barth there. There should be so much content.

[A]

Occasional, occasional, occasional Patriots post game host Evan Valenti as well.

[B]

Hey, you never know. I'm. I'm jacked. I am jacked up for this. He'll get in there, but there's a lot. There's a lot going on, so stick with us at CLNS Media. Thanks to our sponsors prize picks again. CLNs, you use that code when you download. You get 50 in lineups and you play $5. My. My Flex Play Friday is an absolute slam dunk winner. Trust me when I tell you I. I've already locked it in as a power play in it. The games haven't even started yet. So make sure you stay tuned for more Celtic speak, Garden report, all that stuff on CNS Media. Thank you all so much. What will happen next time? I don't know, but probably won't be nearly as exciting.

[A]

Before we do go, I do want to say everybody should know Evan Valenti is an og. Is a CLNS media OG here. And he welcomed me to his table. When I first came to clns, as we were hunting our first big star for the network, which was Adam Kaufman, trying to bring him on to do this very show. And, and that was over at Buff's Pub in Newton. And I remember it to this day.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I was.

[A]

I remember that.

[B]

I remember being in. In awe because I was like, I don't know who. I. Coughman didn't impress me. I'm like, I remember talking to Gelso and I was like, this. This Zanis guy's unbelievable. Where the hell did you come in from? Because you had like, you had like, your brain works that, like, there. Like, for people to understand the content game, your brain has to work a little differently. Like, you have to be able to pull stuff. You have to be able to come up with segments. And that is not for everybody. I. I will tell you right now, it is not my. I'm not awesome at it all the time. Sometimes I'm great, sometimes I'm not. But.

[A]

But you're naturally interesting.

[B]

Yeah, that's. Thank you. It was, it was a lunch that I was just like, floored. I was absolutely floored at what you were doing to. And I don't. I don't remember exactly what we're talking about, but I remember leaving there being like, I can't believe what I just heard. Like, this is like, we have to hire him. Because I was just hearing stuff like, yeah, you can just do this. This, this, this. And I'm like, I can't believe what I'm hearing right now.

[A]

That was fun. My. My takeaway from that was one. I was like.

[B]

It was just.

[A]

You know, it was. It was fun. Being part of. It was so new. But number two, Kaufman ordered boneless wings. And. And I. And that was just a red. Red flag for me right there.

[B]

I'm gonna defend that, because how is that frequent. Frequent flyer on this show, Howard Beck? Him and I had a debate about this exact. I don't know what is with food takes and food people. I've had Howard Beck explain his boneless wings thing. He is. He's more about maximizing the amount of meat that you get.

[A]

I get it.

[B]

Where wings, you don't get as much meat. And the other one is Iron Eagle. Not a salad guy. Not a salad guy. Okay. Very, very, very similar to the Al.

[A]

Michael never had a vegetable.

[B]

Vegetables.

[A]

He's never had a vegetable. Anyway, I just. It's a when in Rome thing. You go to Buffs Pub, you don't think twice. You order. You order the Honey Hots extra crispy, and you move on. And then you just don't ask questions. So, anyway, that's fine. But anyway, yes. Thank you, Evan, for having me on Celtics beat for the very first time. I was very. I'm honored. I'm glad to be here.

[B]

Appreciate you, buddy.