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- [00:01]
Google Chrome Advertiser
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- [00:26]
Bill Simmons
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- [00:56]
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- [01:22]
Bobby Manning
at the Home Depot.
- [01:23]
Home Depot Advertiser
How pros get more done today's Thursday,
- [01:27]
Adam Kaufman
July 16th and this is Celtics beat on CLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of the Boston Celtics. I'm Adam Kaufman. Episode 685 features CLNS Media's very own Bobby Manning.
- [01:42]
Evan Valenti
And I'm Evan Valenti. And today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of CLNS Media. Download the app today, use the promo code CLNS. You get 50 bucks in lineups when you play.
- [01:56]
Adam Kaufman
Five dollars. Hey everybody, welcome in. We got a brand new Celtics beat here with you. Evan Valenti, Adam Compton were always here. But of course we extend the groove to not only the Syracuse families we always like to celebrate, but also the CLNS family. Bobby Manning is here with us who you can catch across the network on any number of different programs constantly throughout the week. That's what the full time status gets you Bobby. Just back from Vegas so we Got a lot to hit on. Not only Celtic Summer league, but Bobby. Where I'd like to begin, of course, the fallout of the Jaylen Brown trade, which I realize is, you know, kind of old news at this point in NBA circles. I don't want people to think we're just going to be rehashing that for the next. However long we're chatting. But. But I do think it's very relevant that, of course, this time of year, in the wake of the start of free agency and some trades being made and just it becomes a conference of sorts, everyone convening, descending upon Vegas to celebrate summer league, to watch the young players, but also to gossip and to see executives and to see players from around the league going and supporting their organizations. I have to imagine there was a lot of Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, what's the future of the Boston Celtics? Talk. So tell me. Let's start with that. Hi, how are you? Obviously. But,
- [03:23]
Bobby Manning
yeah, I'll hit you with this right away. I. I spoke to Jalen briefly at summer league. They didn't learn too much about how this all went down. I think he has said a lot publicly, and I think much of what he said to me there mirrored that, obviously, still settling into the reality of this. This Philly situation. So, you know, I didn't learn a ton in terms of why now. I think that's still the biggest question I had. Why was it so urgent, so important to do this deal now? And I think a lot of the reporting has slowly crept us toward that. Me, like Lowe's point about maybe Jalen Xing off some destinations, his camp doing that maybe made the most sense to me, given how many seem to drop over the last, you know, couple weeks leading up to it. But it was a bizarre saga, like, one team's in, then the next week they're out. One report says one thing, and then the next day another report refuted it. So, you know, making sense of it at summer league, obviously, most people were again, surprised about the return surprise that came to this. There was just a lot of shock that this is where we're at, that he's holding up the Philadelphia jersey on the sideline at the game he attended there. It's. It's still hard to believe that, you know, Paul George, who obviously we still haven't heard from and was now in Vegas, is in a Celtics uniform and Jaylen Brown's going to be wearing that Philadelphia blue.
- [04:55]
Evan Valenti
Do we know why they haven't announced Paul George or Mitchell Robinson or anything like that yet or they just want to give the summer league guys their shine and then later on down the road they're just going have a press conference with everybody.
- [05:05]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, I heard, you know, Jalen hasn't been introduced either in Philadelphia. So, you know, I'm sure it just comes down to the timing. Everybody getting the Boston on that end and for Philadelphia, they're obviously after another big addition in LeBron James. So I think that's probably part of the hold up on that end. But into August I think we'll hear from both George in Boston and Jalen in Philadelphia and I'm hoping I'll be able to get down to Philly for that and speak to him some more. And why I think one thing, and he said this on the stream too, is that he thinks there's more to it. There's more story to tell here, which I'm curious about. I don't know what that could be referring to in terms of why this went down. I know on the initial stream and his reaction was that there's some sort of message done. You know, I, I think Jalen is a cryptic guy often and this situation was no different in terms of what he felt like this represented. There's a lot of frustration, I think on his end and on Tatum's end, who we did not hear from in Vegas. He was up there briefly but didn't speak to us. I think he's had a pretty scripted line about this all. I think the press conference from Brad Stevens, Bill Chisholm left a lot uncertain too, again in terms of that urgency, like why this came to this point, why with three years left on the contract they had to do it for this deal. But the one thing Brad said is that he felt like this was the best deal. I know. I spoke to Michael Scotto briefly on Vegas on Celtics Daily and he said some other teams were surprised that their deals weren't as good as what Celtics ultimately ended up accepting. But some were more picks heavy and didn't have a great player involved. Some had more players, maybe that didn't give the Celtics the what could be premium draft picks. I think the 28 in particular is intriguing, but right now all eyes are on what that follow up move is going to be and I don't see one imminently for now. I've heard a lot about Trey Murphy out in Vegas and none of it spoke to him being a guy that's going to move in the near term. So, yeah, I don't know. That's the name we keep throwing around, right? And Speculating about that would be a great fit for Boston, but at the moment, it feels like a lot of the offseason work is done across the league and for New Orleans in particular, they want to see what this team can do under the new head coach, so that's not happening. I don't think George is going anywhere fast. I still don't think it's 100% that he's in a Celtics uniform next year, but I put it at like 80, 90. It's pretty high. I don't think there's a team taking on that contract quickly. And again, that leads us back to, like, why was this the guy you had to bring back for Jalen? Why now? Why just with two picks thrown in, did you take back two years of him? You can obviously rationalize it a little bit, but a couple weeks later, right. I'm. I'm still not there with the deal. I. I still don't think it was a great one for Boston. I still don't think it's going to work out in their favor. Now Philly has questions, too, maybe more than Boston. The Celtics are still going to be very good next season, in my mind. But did you maximize Jalen Brown the asset? I think you absolutely did not.
- [08:23]
Adam Kaufman
So a few things there. I. We can expand upon this later if we want to. We got a whole summer to do it. I don't think it's going to be particularly great in Philadelphia at all for Jalen. I think he goes from not wanting to be the second option in Boston to now on nights, he's going to be the third or fourth option, depending on what the health of that team looks like. And obviously having Embiid, Maxi Edgecomb, and heaven forbid they should add LeBron as well. Yeah, you've got an elite starting five on paper, but what I would say about that team is the same thing that I would say about the. Who was it the 17 or the 1920 Celtics? 1819 Celtics. Whatever it was, there's only one basketball, there's only one ball. And so I think that's going to be a little bit problematic chemistry wise. And also just to double down on something I've said a thousand times here for years, I don't think Joel Embiid is a good leader, a good teammate, a good presence to be the face of your franchise. So I. I don't expect big things from Philly. And I think there's a reason that even if you want to be in the gambling space and you look at Vegas odds, you know, the Celtics still have a higher win total than Philadelphia. They still have a higher chance odds wise of winning the east, representing the conference in the NBA Finals, than again, any other team in the Eastern Conference outside of the defending champion Knicks. So I think Philly has its questions and obviously we can get to that as the summer moves along. Going back to the Boston side of things, maybe I'm naive. Maybe I have over the last couple of weeks taken the cheese on this a little bit. I'm not going to say I liked the trade. I didn't. I'm not going to say I fully understand the trade. I don't. I'm not going to say that I fully support the trade and believe, yeah, that's the absolute best you could have gotten.
- [10:08]
Evan Valenti
Really. No, I don't.
- [10:10]
Adam Kaufman
But I do trust in Brad Stevens. I think he's earned that. And I do wonder if ultimately, like you brought up and others have brought up, it keeps coming back to the whole why now? Why now? Why now? I think the why now is very, very related to the looming extension that Boston clearly did not want to pay Jaylen Brown. You know, clearly the Celtics weren't happy with the current contract that they had given to Jaylen Brown. They certainly didn't want to extend them at $70 million ish a year over multiple seasons when he's already, as you said, has multiple years left on the existing contract. And the fact that he's eligible for this and he absolutely would want it, I think it could become a little bit of a distraction. And then as far as the teams falling out of the mix of this thing and narrowing the field and did you know, was George the guy they had to bring. It wasn't about Paul. George. George was the. The guy to make the money work. It was about the draft capital. And I think the draft capital, unfortunately, because maybe some teams that Jalen, as you alluded to, xed out along the way with his team, I think the draft capital, probably, however much we want to disagree with this was the best you were getting on paper because we'll see how it actually materialize over time. 2028, 2031's a while away, but I think it was probably the best return on paper among the teams that Brown was willing to go to that ultimately the Celtics could get in return. So there are all these unfortunate caveats for the Celtics that sped up the timeline that goes back to the whole, man, if you had waited, if you would let this bleed into the season past the point that he was extension eligible and you weren't going to give it to him. Was it going to get ugly? Was it going to get disruptive? Was it going to get a little, you know, just, I don't know, uncomfortable behind the scenes. And on top of that, was the return over time going to diminish. And I kind of have maybe convinced myself that, yeah, that's, that's probably the case. I, I think that ultimately the longer you held on to Jalen, the worse the return was going to be. In part because of all those things, but also Bobby, in part because he peaked last year. I'm not saying his career peaked, but in Boston, statistically he peaked. He goes back to being Robin, he goes back to being 1B, he goes back to being second fiddle to Jason Tatum and the stats, the role, heaven forbid, the usage were not going to be what they were, you know, without Tatum when he was the dude. And so as soon as he started putting up worse numbers and performing at a worse level, you were going to get a lower return. You sold high. At least they believe they sold high. Even though we don't feel like it in the wake of the trade.
- [12:55]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, no, that's obviously going to be what the follow up move is like. If whatever they can turn George into a year from now, five picks into that they can trade will decide a lot of this. It doesn't look right now certainly, but it was always going to be a pair of moves, you know, as it was described to me from the beginning of the saga. It wasn't going to be just one move that gets them to where they want to go. I just don't know what that's ultimately going to be. Again, we throw around Murphy, we throw around some different names. The young ascending players that many dreamt of obviously weren't attainable here. And I do think it was interesting this offseason to see with all the new cap reality and the financials the teams are dealing with, it definitely seems like young rookie scale players are at the top of the list of peak value right now and none of those guys were attainable. The Ahmed Thompsons of the world draft picks still somewhat attainable. Like, you know, Milwaukee got three right from, from Miami in the Giannis trade in a swap and the Celtics did a couple for, for Jalen. So you can still go out and get some premium unprotected draft picks and then obviously somehow some way, and I was talking about this with someone else at summer league too, like the Trey Murphy's of the world who are making 25 million are going to get you Way more than the Jalen Browns of the world who are making 50, 60 million. So Celtics also ended up in that
- [14:17]
Adam Kaufman
drop the Trey Murphy thing. Like, everyone's talking about Trey Murphy, you know, in my text messages and in, you know, like, I know it's funny. Not, not because I don't want him, not because I don't think he'd be a great fit. It's just again, like Paul George is yet another reminder, you know, Mitchell Robinson, to a degree, is yet another reminder. Mike Conley, even though obviously he is at the end of his career, is another reminder. The dudes that we're all talking about are not the guys that Brad Stevens acquires. So maybe, just maybe if we follow that, you know, that, that thread, Trey Murphy isn't going to be a Celtic.
- [14:53]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, I don't think so. Especially when you're talking four or five first. I think that Desmond Bain trade set the market for someone like that a year ago. And obviously the Celtics and others don't want to meet that price at the moment. So, yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of reporting around interest in him, but probably at again, a certain price and, you know, had a conversation with a guy close to that team out there and I don't think it'd be Paul George if that ever ended up happening. It'd be young players. And we also saw from Boston's perspective, going back to the honest trade, a desire to keep the Sheiremans ugos of the world because even though we might not see a high, high ceiling for those guys, they're incredibly valuable if they're going to turn into rotation players, maybe even starters in both of their cases on four or five million dollar deals. And, you know, so much of this conversation's money now. It is. And I think that can get frustrating for fans. So much of the Jalen conversation became a money one instead of a value one. And that seems to be the new reality in the league, for better or worse. And that was a big conversation. Obviously out in Vegas too, is where this apron stuff, where this money stuff's going. And it hasn't been a pretty off season for the NBA in that sense.
- [16:05]
Adam Kaufman
All right, friends, over at prize picks. It's scorching sports summer and you can make all your picks on prize picks. The WNBA and baseball are heating up and with big tennis slams and major golf tournaments on the horizon, maybe even one going on right now, you can make your picks for all these events and more all summer long on prize picks. America's number one sports picks. Apple.
- [16:30]
Evan Valenti
The entire summer of soccer is on Prize Picks as we wind down the big tournament. All 48 countries in every matchup. And if you wrap your side of the tournament on Prize Picks, you can win a trip to the final in New York, which is coming up very quickly this. Actually this weekend. So I'm sure that Prize Picks has figured out who this particular people are or person is that's going to the final. It's the biggest tournament ever. Which means there's even more opportunities to cash in while you root for your favorite sides and global soccer stars. One more soccer flex play Friday on a Thursday. Coming at you now. We got a little ahead of our skis last week. We did a power play. Didn't come up well for us with.
- [17:09]
Adam Kaufman
Yeah, I was right there waiting. Got underway.
- [17:13]
Evan Valenti
Well, yeah, yeah. Mape did not waste much time, but Messi and Holland let us down. So we're gonna go back to our. We're going back to our normal stuff. We're going to flex play. We're going Messi in the final. Messi More than 35 and a half passes now. We're going more than. Because the numbers have now finally gotten to where they need to be for Messi in passes. We're going over more than 35 and a half. We're going more than a half ago, I believe. Guy's just unbelievable. We're going to keep that going on. And you mall his. His counterpart in those great photos. I don't know if you saw that photos or. He's gone. We're going with him with more than one half a shot. So 0.5 shots. Okay, you guys know the deal. Hit all three. Three extra money. I hit two out of three, I get most of my money back. 0.75, which is better than zero. So we'll take that. And it could be getting your money can have been easier. I have it linked to my Venmo account. You can do whatever you want. You get your money as little as 15 minutes. It's really, really simple, cop. And guess what? If your lineup's on fire again, Rarely happens to me. Maybe it'll happen to you. Keep checking that early payout option. A prize picks, buddy. You never know. You might get lucky. I did not one time. Trust me.
- [18:19]
Adam Kaufman
So download the prize picks app. Do it today. Use code CLNS. Get $50 in lineups after playing your first $5 lineup. That is promo code CLNS. Get $50in lineups after playing your first for only five bucks. Let's get back to the show. Adam. Ed, we're hanging out with our buddy Bobby Manning, CLNS media and, you know, we've, we, we rehashed some of, you know, obviously what's been going on with the Celtics and the Jaylen Brown trade. And, you know, we're going to be just again analyzing that thing to death for, you know, weeks, months, years to come, quite frankly, until, as you mentioned before, Paul George has flipped, you know, whatever asset he becomes a year from now, year and a half from now, as an expiring contract trade deadline, we'll see how it plays out. Nevermind what those picks turn into, and hopefully they're top fives and they do bring in again premier players for the Celtics. But we're still talking about what the Celtics are doing in what is the heart of Jason Tatum's prime years. And that, I think is the concern largely across the fan base right now. You know, you're, you're taking yourself. You knew last year was not going to be a contending window, or at least you felt it wasn't going to be because of the uncertainty around Tatum. And then he comes back and the team played over its head and there were all these conversations that shifted to where, you know, they become the betting favorite to win the conference and, and to reach the championship and all of that. And we, you know, we deluded ourselves into believing that team was something that it wasn't. But, you know, now obviously you take a step back and you know exactly what this team is on paper, and it seems like it's not good enough even in a wide open Eastern Conference. And so going back to the fact that you were in Vegas having a lot of conversations with people behind the scenes, executives, other media members, that kind of thing. What is the general sentiment independent of the Brown trade? Just the direction of the Celtics franchise and you know how people are talking about Boston right now and even on paper as it exists, what its potential is within this conference.
- [20:26]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, I think people are so high on them, like they've earned that. I think their summer league has shown, and this is something I've talked about a lot too, that there's youth movement on this team as a development success, track record over the last handful of years. That make you confident about the pair of rookies coming in, Hugo Gonzalez coming off this past season, they've obviously bought into it too, to some degree, given a roster that they held on to and gonna carry forward here. So I love what they're doing through Maine. I love what they're doing through the draft right now. It's gotten to the point where you we feel good about anybody that they're bringing in among players, not just the Cenacs and Mitchells obviously, but also like the Tanjis and the guys who could be figuring out ways on this roster on two ways. Amari Williams continued development too, which, you know, sitting here a year ago, I don't think any of us pictured him playing NBA basketball year one and he was in there making some contributions to winning right away. He already looks great and far ahead with everybody else on the roster in terms of like positioning defensively and obviously his offense has come a long way too. Two, I think he had a 24 point game in the first game. So you know those guys aren't going to drive their winning and their contending ability. Right. Like they are guys who are going to be more complimentary to Tatum and others here. And I think at the top end of the roster you probably have more questions than the depth. Like I think the bench is great and they're going to find ways to utilize that effectively like they did last season. But are Derek Payton stepping into the Jalen shoes? I know there's been a lot made about like Peyton stepping stats when, when Jaylen sits and that like this might unlock him. I'm not there on that and I'm, I'm a pain guy, right. Like I think we've seen his productivity certainly boom when he's gotten more opportunity. But you know, last year he had a lot of opportunity and started for the first half of the season, had a slow shooting start to the year and then later like his efficiency, his ball control is great. There are a lot of things analytically, as we've talked about a lot this summer that work in his favor. I think he plays a style that suits them well alongside Barrick. But are those guys putting up 30 points every single night the way Jalen did? I think that's my concern here. And there's also, I think Dean Oliver's put out some good stats this summer of like how much your ability, your productivity maintains against great competition. I think that's a question we've had with Peyton at times. Certainly Derek sliding up to a number two role last year he saw a massive efficiency hit, you know, for reasons we're all still trying to figure out. So George oft injured, I think 47 games a year the last five seasons. Pritchard White, even Tatum, right? Like is Tatum gonna play 75 games the way we've seen from him in the past? Certainly the 40 minute workload doesn't seem to be the best thing for him post injury. We saw how that built up on him in the playoffs. Like there's an assumption he's going to get back to 100 this year, but you have to see it. And I think a lot of the season's going to be all right. What's this look like with Tatum as the singular star? What are some of these complimentary guys do in bigger roles, George among them? I think a lot of this year is going to be assessing are we close? Do we make a move next summer that puts us back in the championship next? Or is Tatum far from the guy we saw pre injury? Are some of these guys pushing 30 or obviously way above in George's case, well, diminished below that. And we have to maybe even take a bigger step back toward drafting and development this upcoming season. You won't want to see that, but it's obviously a possibility. And again, I lean more toward this being a 50 win team. Ish. That's where know Vegas is placing the mat too at the moment. And I think that's right. If everything's right here, they should be second in the east again. But there are obviously a lot of questions across the board. And again, like Jalen had been a constant. I know there are a lot of questions about his efficiency and productivity when you took a deep dive at it, but he showed up and put 30 on the board every night. And it's still points that win the game at the end of the day, not your whatever rating, you know, like it's. It's the points and he put them up every single night. And I'll still favor him over some of the alternatives that they're going to be trying to rely on here, along with showing up and playing the games, which he was great at too. Very durable player.
- [25:06]
Evan Valenti
Well, no question about that. It's in. Tatum's been mostly durable his entire career. I think the trade is again a. A gamble against Brown in that contract extension. That's living. But I also think it's a gamble and a bet on. Jason Tatum is our superstar. He's the face of our team. And this is. We need to make sure that he's in the best situation to succeed. And is it a gamble? Absolutely. But you know, the past would tell you it's pretty good gamble like they've been. If you want to go to the advanced metrics, which everybody made a big deal about during this Jalen trade, the advanced metrics tell you very bluntly that Jason Tatum plus four dudes is going to be a really great, really great team. Doesn't matter.
- [25:44]
Bobby Manning
And that's what I do. Yeah, like, and, you know, he's elevated those lineups throughout his career. You know that you've basically been able to put anyone on the floor with him and come away with a win. So, like, he's still your big advantage. It's just, how much can you lean on him relative to what you did in the past? Like, you could literally just throw him out there for 80 games and all the minutes, and it worked. And I think we're past that era, unfortunately, because of the injury. So it's going to be on other guys to try to sustain through some of those lineups. And a lot of that was Jalen in the past. And obviously the net numbers and the analytics didn't point toward him being a plus guy through some of those situations. But, you know, what are the alternatives now? Like, George at his best can do that. Derek, mixed results last season. Peyton's the interesting one. Like, is he gonna, you know, go through a major, significant leap here given these shots and opportunity he's going to get in Jalen's absence? It probably will have to be him. He's the best candidate for it, certainly. And the isolation numbers from the playoffs scream that he can create those advantages. And I love Hoyers passing that, too. So, you know, I'm never going to doubt Pritchard completely, but it does seem a little optimistic to think that he can be Jalen esque, especially at his size, stature, and position.
- [27:02]
Adam Kaufman
Well, also, is he starting? Is he still the sixth man?
- [27:05]
Bobby Manning
I mean, what does this look at the moment, he's got to be the sixth man, right? With two guards like Conley helps a little, but you're probably not playing him on the average night. I would think so. Yeah.
- [27:16]
Adam Kaufman
I. I don't think you're. I don't think you're seeing Mike Conley more than an average of
- [27:22]
Bobby Manning
10 minutes.
- [27:23]
Adam Kaufman
15. I. I was gonna even. 15?
- [27:25]
Evan Valenti
Yeah.
- [27:25]
Adam Kaufman
You know, because last year I think he was about 20 still. So let's call it even. If we call it 15 on average, you know, you're. It's still not a prominent role. It's just an. It's a. It's enough of a blow for everybody else.
- [27:39]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, for sure. And I think that's what he and others are going to have to provide off that bench. And obviously, there's still a million wings here. Like, how you're sorting that out is another question. I think, too. I, at the moment, probably favor Scheireman there among them all just to give you consistent minutes. And if Payton's going to be on the bench, I would assume Shireman starting. So, you know, is he ready for that? I think he showed great signs in that role late last season, but obviously into the postseason series against Philadelphia, he couldn't play. So you're still mixing and matching a little bit. Like, does Walsh have a role after falling out late last season? Ugo didn't play in that series either. And these are your frontline, backup reserve wings at the moment. So there are more defensive players than offensive players as well at this, at this moment. But there's going to be a lot of opportunity to go around and it's exciting in some ways, again, because the developmental track record here has been awesome and I think their young players have gotten better fast. I think you can even aspire hope that some of these rookies that they drafted are going to contribute year one. So I think that's the fun side of this year. The difficult part for a lot of people to grasp is going to be that they're at this moment, in my mind, probably not a championship team. Like, they're probably not among the contenders going into this year. That could change. They could make some moves or they could prove otherwise through internal leaps. But at this moment, I don't know if you guys disagree. I don't see them in that championship mix. And even if they have 50 plus wins and look like it in the regular season, I think we're gonna have some doubts about how it translates to the playoffs after what we saw last year.
- [29:16]
Adam Kaufman
All right, so I don't disagree, but I also think you're potentially talking against yourself a little bit. And here's what I mean by that. If you think there's still a team that, say, finishes second in the Eastern Conference, but simultaneously they're not a contender. You know, one of two things is going on. Either you're a team that kind of like last year plays above its head and just outworks everybody on a given night and is motivated and ultimately still isn't very good against the top teams in the league again, 3 and 11 last year, despite 56 wins, and therefore, boom, you're out in the first round, even though it should have been the second. Second round, but fine, you're out early, you're not actually a contender, despite what we convinced ourselves of. That's, you know, door one or, you know, door two is that if you're the second seed in the east, of course you're in the contender conversation. So which is their reality going to be, do you think? Is it just a hard working, young, motivated group that isn't actually there?
- [30:18]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, I think that's going to come down to Tatum, like if he returns or even elevates MVP form with that breathing room. And I am intrigued by that to some degree, like without having to share the ball with Brown and you know, balance that dynamic at the top of the roster. Like, is he a guy in a more like heliocentric role who's going to elevate everything around him, score 33 points a game? Like that's within the realm of possibility. But a lot more is on his shoulders and I think teams will obviously load up on him in playoff environments. The ugos of the world, they're going to have to make shots and those games and that's what makes the playoffs a little different. Even Joe, like, who to his credit last year utilized depth sensationally, developed guys off the bench, formed these great roles through the regular season and you got to that postseason series against Philadelphia and it wasn't the Sixers who drove some of those guys off the floor. Like Joe cut them off almost immediately and the whole dynamic changed into that series. And I know that was obviously a lament Jalen had coming out of that series. So for Joe, like we've seen a difference through multiple seasons of regular season versus versus the playoffs. For this last team in particular, you saw a stark difference. And so it's going to be hard for both those reasons to assume that anything that happens in the regular season is automatically going to translate for them. The big difference being Tatum obviously, and Tatum was great for parts of that first round series and obviously got hurt at the end of it. That's going to have to be the differentiator this season is that Jason in that frontline position is that much better and more equipped to drive this team deep into the playoffs. And Jalen alone or, you know, with some percentage of Tatum last year as it was. And listen, I won't discount the awkwardness of that late season return and how much change and how much of a balance it was between doing what they did all year and trying to get Tatum involved. Like I said, that undoubtedly had a role in some of the awkwardness and their downfall in Philadelphia. And there's no fault for that. Like, I think it was the right, you know, I think bringing back Tatum was right. I think that's going to set him up for more success this season, having that experience under him. But I don't think there's any doubt that it disrupted that team a little bit and it was a factor among many and the reason for their collapse.
- [32:40]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, it's going to be a real fun regular season, I think just based off last year's track record and I just my belief in Jason Tatum over Jaylen Brown. But we're also forgetting like they did add a big piece of Mitchell Robinson. That's going to really help the way they play. Like, you can tell that they want to play this. We want to control possessions. We want to make sure we don't turn the ball over. We want to make sure that, you know, we get multiple opportunities at the, at the basket. I mean, Brad talked about getting more rim pressure. That's part of this thing. But the other part of this thing is they want to make sure that they can really control the glass and really eliminate turnovers. And that's bringing in Mitchell Robinson's one part of that and bringing in Paul George to sort of replace Jalen Brown's another part of that. So it's, you know, it's, it's a heavier lean into the style of play. They think is, is a technical advantage against the rest of the league. They didn't really have the horses last year and they won 56 games was amazing. But when you go to the playoffs a little different. I think just by adding Mitchell Robinson, that will make a huge difference in how this team performs in the playoffs. And you know, again, it's. It's a bet on a few things, but it's also a bet on Joe Missoula and the way this team wants to play. And I, I see the vision again, whether we all agree with everything that's happened, you know, obviously we don't, but I can at least when you take the 35, 000 foot view. Because coffin, that's what we do. That's what the show is all about. It's taking the big view. And you can see what they want to do. They can with the additions that they made. And whether or not it'll work, we'll find out. But I, I at least love the strategy of it. Bobby.
- [34:10]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, and I think the significance of the Robinson edition got overshadowed, but to some degree by the whole Jalen saga and its conclusion that followed. I mean that between getting him at the mid level, which I didn't think was possible going in the, you know, offseason, I thought there'd be more money for him out there than that, just given what the center market's been of late. Pulling them from your rival Knicks and that's a significant loss for them. They didn't quite make up for bringing in Andre Drummond. So I think that's going to hurt them in a significant way. And it addressing your biggest issue which is center depth and consistency at that position. You now have three different really good options there alongside Sanak and Amari, developmental guys that you know. I said this on the Garden Report during the summer league run and I do feel this way. I think they have the best center depth in the league and not that they have the best centers. I think they have the best, you know, optionality the word of the day. They have the most versatility at that position, the greatest array of options, some up and coming guys, a guy in Robinson who I think has starter capabilities who just hasn't been able to do it behind Towns with the injuries and some other reasons as well alongside amazing depth in Keda and Garza. You know, a four stretching big option who I think will get better at that into next year too. You legitimately have three guys at that position who can start and win games and that's going to be important because Robinson probably will get hurt for some stretch this season. Kata will probably run into foul trouble in certain scenarios as we saw in the playoffs. And Garza like is an ideal. Right. You know we saw that into the playoffs but can give you some awesome regular season minutes there. So you know there'll still be some questions in the playoffs about that position too. But through the course of the regular season and the injuries and bumps and bruises matchups that happen along the way, like they have an answer for almost everything inside there alongside Tatum. Right. Who plays with some center tendencies too. And if you really want to go small, you can throw him at the five as well. So I think they have the best center depth in the league.
- [36:17]
Adam Kaufman
Let's go back to the youth a little bit because again summer league games are underway. Almost over for Boston for that matter. South are sitting at three. One win loss doesn't matter, but still feels better than one and three. And in terms of individual performances. I know our, our guy Greeny is doing his crush list on a nightly basis at this point, but you think about Ugo and obviously it's you expect guys who have had real NBA competition and playoff experience to go out and dominate summer league, but Ugo has looked sharp. You know Amare, you're seeing some good play from you mentioned. Obviously you know the, the lead rookie in Snack that they took out of Houston who's you know, he had a double Double last time out against the Kings, you know, is, is increasingly looking better. I'm not saying he's going to be in the, you know, debons a top tier conversation, but the dude is looking like obviously he's someone who can play and you know, that development will be fun to watch, obviously. But in terms of the summer league takeaways through four games, who are the guys that have, I don't know, really stood out to you that, that you're excited about seeing this coming year, whether it's again a second year guy just from a developmental standpoint or a guy who's getting his first taste of pro experience?
- [37:32]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, I'm excited about Hugo. I am. And I think that started last year with the shift from looking like a guy who was probably going to be in Maine a ton or just didn't play in general in Boston to a guy who played 70 plus games and had a small but consistent, consistent night to night role. And you're just seeing little flashes from him. They're obviously putting him in a bigger role that he won't be necessarily playing in Boston, but pull up shooting, running pick and rolls. Some of the passes in the lane he's thrown have been mesmerizing and he has two games out of the three where he's boarded on a triple double the shooting. I don't put as much stock in because he's taking a lot more difficult looks than he'll take with the Celtics this season. But he's a guy who just with his experience with his mind and now, you know, playing into a professional body into year two, I think he was already well equipped for the physicality in the game in year one, been year two, only be more ready for that. He can do a lot of things and you start dreaming. Like you know, one of the podcasts I did out in Vegas, like we were throwing around some crazy names in terms of like the best role players in the league, like guys who started and small roles and I think going back to the Giannis trade and obviously him not being included in it. I thought about Rondo's rookie year and at least just the stats that those two guys put up and on in tiny, tiny roles in their first seasons. The Aaron Gordon's and Ogn and Obi's of the world who you know, started in understated roles and obviously grew into super role players, you know, Finals mvp, pet caliber guy and Anunobi. I know Corrales throws around Derrick White when he talks about Ugo and not to say he's gonna be any of these guys, the exact same players, them. I just think of the impact I core for two I think is worth noting there, like a guy who's not gonna light up the stat sheet, who's gonna affect a lot of different areas. And when you look up like nothing he does individually is gonna pop shine, but the minutes that he plays are gonna be great. And you know, you look up at the end of last season, his net rating is miles ahead of any other rookies. And I know those stats can be a little wonky, but it said something to me like when he went out there, even in that Game 7 against Philadelphia, good stuff happened. And you know, I think Scowl pointed out a lot like where he moved on the floor, freed up other guys with space. Like there were just some really intuitive, heady things he did that made me think like this guy's just gonna keep getting better and better. And not to say that we're gonna look up in a year and be like, oh man, thank God they didn't put him in the honest trade. Like, I think there is a. There is still a good debate to be had there and I understand the people who are like, really? You didn't throw like two guys deep on your bench and maybe another pick in there try to get that done. But I'm fascinated to see how it's going to go because obviously we look back at the KG trade, as successful as that was, and you're like, man, thank God you didn't throw Rondo in there. And I wonder if it's going to be a similar circumstance with him. Like, is he a starter one day on the next great Celtics team. I think it's within play. He has some work to do, I think shooting wise, efficiency wise. Like he still has on the offensive end, a lot of development in front of him, but in some of the intangible areas and defensively, certainly as early as year one, he was massively impactful and I think he's the guy on this team among the young cast who is their X factor. I think he can contribute in a lot of different ways and there is a path to the end of the season. Obviously I mentioned earlier Scheireman could be a starter on this team that spots up for grabs. Like anyone could could go earn it. And he's certainly right up there with anybody in terms of players who could.
- [41:14]
Evan Valenti
Yeah, you stole my thunder there. I think it's very, very possible he's the last member of the starting five into the season. I think what and as you pointed out, like, he's going to obviously not do what he just did during summer league. They're not going to ask him to do that. But the fact that he's showing that right now, I think is incredibly important. And when you, you know, look through these four games, the, you know, his ability to kind of stuff a stat sheet without really even trying so hard, I think is, is. Well, I mean, he's always trying hard. Never mind. But that. It seems sort of effortless. Like, he just naturally knows what to do, where to go. The, the rebounding stuff, especially in the fourth game against Sacramento, I thought was incredibly impressive the way he was able to keep Sacramento's bigs off the glass. His energy is contagious. You know, the shots coming around, I think, you know, looks a little bit better. And, you know, he's obviously feeling out some things, but he has a great feel for the game, knows when to cut. He knows, you know, how to get, you know, involved defensively. Whether it's on ball or off ball, he's very impressive. And I think outside of him, the one thing I'll walk away from summer league is, man, Boston has a really good idea of how to draft guys that can make impact into the draft. Because you look at Baylor, Shireman has, has done obviously very well for Boston in his limited time there. Jordan Walsh has made a couple contributions, obviously, during the regular season, but they get sac and I'm like, this guy should not have fallen to 27. Like, I, I, you know, everybody's like, oh, you know, it's not good at protecting the Ram. Well, he wasn't asked to do that at Houston. He was asked to rebound the basketball. He almost has as many blocks in four games with the Celtics in the summer league as he had all season with Houston.
- [42:49]
Bobby Manning
He is up to, what, 11 now?
- [42:52]
Evan Valenti
Yeah. And he is, I mean, the jump shot looks good. He's not afraid to put the ball on the deck. Obviously, he's 19. He's got to clean it up a little bit defensively. I think, you know, there are times where he takes some, some time off, but I, I think he does that, you know, for a particular reason. Tries to bait people off on the glass on both ends. He's kind of a bully. He's got great athleticism. He's trying to dunk on everybody. Like I, I Ugo aside, because obviously Ugo should get a lot of the praise. I can't believe what I'm seeing from sack early on. I think he's been way better than than what was advertised when they picked him.
- [43:25]
Bobby Manning
Yeah, and again, given their developmental track record, you would think he'd start in Maine to begin the year. But given his ability to play the four, he's really the only like pure four on this roster aside from Tatum. He could sneak into action sooner than expected and obviously injuries. Any number of things in the front court could get him more involved. I would assume he'll start in the G league. I still think there's a lot to refine for him offensively and defensively. He's going to have to make the move from the four to the five. But when you look up and this has happened with them and the reason that they've gotten their last three first round picks now, Baylor falls because of maybe the athleticism, measurables age. Ugo falls because he didn't play a lot at Real Madrid and there just wasn't much of a track record for him in terms of playing professional basketball at that point. And Sanac to me, when I look up and maybe there's some other reasons I just haven't caught on to yet, but it feels like he fell because he played out of position last year and like you'll, you'll take that, right? Like it's not like he's undersized or there's some severe limitations. In fact, like his measurables are amazing for an NBA center. He has touch as a shooter. He's not limited in that area. You don't have to develop that fully. There just seems to be some tendencies, the way he plays offensively, shot selection, those sort of things that again you can refine. And an awkward role for him last year at Houston that didn't produce a great season and I would figure more teams would be able to forecast that and say like all right, we can figure that out. But there he is at 27 and I think it's always a sign with the Celtics if they're not trading back. They see a guy there that they don't think would be available later and that they absolutely have to have compared to some other guys that felt that way with Ugo last year and I'm sure they felt that way with the knack too because it's a guaranteed contract. They're giving them in a very tight cap situation. He could be a developmental guy for a year or two. So they obviously love him if that's the case.
- [45:21]
Adam Kaufman
Bobby Bannon again. CLNS Media Garden Report Celtics Daily all over the network, traveling constantly. Fresh off of Vegas and who knows what's next But Bobby, we always enjoy when you pop on here with us. Obviously it's an interesting time for this Celtics franchise, but honestly, I feel like there's a different reason that we are saying that on an annual basis about this time of year. Whether it's some giant injury related question, trade question, free agent question, whatever it is. Just trying to get this team off to Banner 19. Thanks for hopping on with us, buddy.
- [45:53]
Bobby Manning
No problem, guys. Good talking as always.
- [45:55]
Adam Kaufman
All right. For Evan, I am Adam. We remind you, check out the podcast wherever you subscribe. Audio versions, rate, review, leave comments, all that good stuff again. Spotify, Pandora, you name it, we're there. And of course, if you want the video, you can check out the CLNS Media YouTube page, the all access page, the main page. You will find loads and loads of great Celtics related content. This show, Bobby, shows others of the many across the network. Ev, thank you, buddy.
- [46:25]
Evan Valenti
Thank you, sir. Good to see you.
- [46:27]
Adam Kaufman
All right, we'll catch you guys again next week.