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- [00:00]
A
Today's Friday, July 24, and this is Celtics Beat on CLNS Media, the leading online provider of audio video coverage of the Boston Celtics. I'm adam Kaufman. Episode 686 features Barstool Sports. Dan Greenberg Today's show is powered by Prize Picks. Prize Picks is the official daily fantasy partner of CLNS Media. Download the app today, use the code CLNS. Get $150 in lineups you if you win your first $5 lineup, Celtic is brought to you by Ice Picks. Hey everybody, welcome in. This is a new late July edition of Celtics Beat, where not a ton has happened, unless of course, you obsess over things like Jordan Walsh extension. You know that that's, you know, there's that. But obviously it's still the fallout of Jaylen Brown. It's the look ahead to what's next. It's the preseason approaching. I won't say right around the corner, but I do know our guest Dan Greenberg bars sports on Twitter at Stool Greenie. Check him out. There he is, just waiting, counting the days. He is. He's got the calendar posted up on his wall, crossing days off one at a time, waiting until October 8th. The start of the preseason gets here. Greeny, how are you, buddy?
- [01:15]
B
76 days, if you were curious, until we get to October 8th. So we're almost there. You know, a couple more sleeps, give or take. You know, it's going to be a long way. This is, this is the dark days. This is where, you know, the, the YouTube highlights, the 2K, the, you gotta try everything you can to, to get us through this dark period. Well, I guess now the socks are back, so we at least have that.
- [01:39]
A
But yeah, I mean it was really dark before that 15 game winning streak. Now at least they're making things interesting again. Not that they're a contender, but you know what, it's Celtics beat, not Red Sox beat. So you can find your Red Sox content elsewhere.
- [01:52]
B
That was it. That's the extent of my Red Sox content.
- [01:54]
A
That' that's all we're giving you right here. We'll put on our socks, fitted caps and our, you know, pull out the David Ortiz jerseys and do whatever. I'm certainly not buying a, a Durban or Duran jersey, something like that. But do check out the CLNS media page, the YouTube page. You'll find this show, lots of other great Celtics related content. All sports Patriots training camp getting underway today, as a matter of fact. So you've got content across the board on the network. If you want the audio version of the podcast, check Out Celtics beat wherever. You subscribe to your various podcast, Spotify, Pandora, you name it, we are there. Leave Comments Rate Reviews subscribe All of that good stuff. We have our guy Bailey behind the scenes producing Evan Valenti, as you may have noticed, enjoying a well deserved vacation. So ev come back safe and sound. We'll look forward to the next one. In the meantime, it's just you and I Greeny here for a bit and like I said, the Walsh extension and preseason coming and you know, will there be any more roster moves of note or of consequence or just in general? I think there are people that are out there wondering that I this is an unconventional way to start off a Celtic show, but trust me, you out there listening. I am pulling it back to the Celtics. This is Celtics related. Okay, I'm thinking about the LeBron James stuff and the fact that I, I know Adam Silver is feeling held hostage right now because he wants to put out the schedule and you know, broadcast, you know, all the, like if it is the Swan song for LeBron, you know, is, is he going to be featured in every single prime time game? Are you basically, you know, depending on, on all the different services that you have to watch your NBA games, are you getting the LeBron James package, meaning all of his games are going to be available to you nightly. But this domino, which is very Celtics related in my mind as to where LeBron is going to go when Decision 3 comes around here, maybe imminently, maybe in weeks, I have no idea. I'm curious, I guess, where you think he's going to go, where you want him to go. You probably want him to go to Golden State, get him the heck out of the Eastern Conference and just go over there and deal with okc, deal with San Antonio, deal with Denver, deal with whoever else. I actually kind of like the east story and, and I know people have desperately tried to link him to Boston. He's not coming to Boston. No, it's like that's not gonna happen. So please, like, for the love of all that is hol that out of your minds. So, you know, it really comes back to is it Miami? And we know the blunder that happened there with the Heat that probably cost somebody a job. Is it the homecoming, you know, part three with Cleveland? Is it Philadelphia where I just don't like the fit. I don't think he's going to be comfortable being a fourth or fifth wheel any given night when that team is actually, however rarely at full strength. How do you think this plays out?
- [04:51]
B
My heart says Cleveland, but My head says Miami.
- [04:56]
A
Okay.
- [04:57]
B
I just think a. I, I don't think that YouTube thing was an accident. You know, I, I understand the logic behind it of being prepared, but, like, I don't know, you could have gotten prepared on July 26th. You didn't have to be prepared on July. What was that, 22nd?
- [05:13]
A
Well, it takes five seconds to schedule a tweet.
- [05:15]
B
Yeah. You know what I mean? So that's a little. That makes my antennas up. But I just think if the. He won't have to sacrifice as much on Miami, if we're thinking that he's going to stay on the East Coast. Right. Then, you know, he's the third guy, fourth guy at Cleveland. Right. Because you got Mobley, you have Harden, you have Mitchell. You know, same thing with, with the Sixers. With Miami, it's kind of like why they were so desperate for Giannis, where, like, that roster needed the talent. They need someone like LeBron and his skill set. I mean, I don't know how in love you are with Davion Mitchell as, like, your playmaking facilitator, but, like, there's a need for LeBron's skill set there. And I don't know, I just think that just feels like how this ends up. But I do from, like, a selfish perspective. I would love to see another sort of Team USA type situation with LeBron and Steph. I just think that was cool to watch, you know, in the Olympics, and I don't think they would win. So it's like, I also don't have to worry about some sort of demon curry. Like I say, the Celtics go on a magical run. I don't need to worry about seeing Steph Curry in the finals and him ripping my heart out again, which I would, you know, like to avoid. So, like, I. My heart says Cleveland, but my head says Miami.
- [06:47]
A
Unfortunately, if anybody is wondering, and I'm, I'm just, as we're sitting here chatting, pulling up one of the sports books to take a look at what the championship odds are in the, you know, across the NBA. Never mind just the Eastern Conference teams as they exist right now. And I'm having some trouble loading it, so I'll give it to you as soon as I have it. All right, here we go. So the spurs, unsurprisingly, at. At the top of the board as see they co favorites with okc. It's buffering on me again. I didn't know things could still buffer. All right, so they're co favorites. Then you have the Knicks. Then you have The Celtics, then the Heat, then the Sixers, then the Cavs, and then the Raptors with Kawhi Leonard. Theoretically, or, you know, theoretically, that that will still happen whenever this investigation is. So it's, it's very east top heavy after you get through the first two. And the reason that I start with LeBron is because, I mean, it's obvious like LeBron, if he goes to the east, as most people expect is going to happen, that's just another domino that the Celtics are going to have to contend with in trying to emerge from the conference. And so it is very Boston related now. Odds have shifted in such a way that the market is telling you Miami is, is, you know, the leader in the clubhouse there because again, he hasn't been linked to the Knicks. Probably would have wound up there if the Knicks don't win a championship last year. The Celtics, not a real link. It's, you know, like the, the periphery piece on the, on the Rich Paul whiteboard.
- [08:17]
B
Yeah, but, you know, I heard a, a funny theory. I'm sure we'll talk about it. About the two names on that whiteboard was, was a funny theory that. So I think we all saw Brad and Tatum and we're like, oh, that's Brad Stevens. But what if it was Bradley Beal? Bradley Beal and Tatum.
- [08:36]
A
Yeah, could.
- [08:38]
B
Yeah. But then you, but then you do the math and you say, okay, if they add Bradley, bill, that's their 15 spot.
- [08:43]
A
So. That's right.
- [08:44]
B
So. But I just thought that was interesting at the time. Yeah. Of like, hey, that could be. You know, but that's not. I mean, he hates Boston like poison. I don't think we have to worry about LeBron coming here, which, by the
- [08:57]
A
way, I don't want to have a whole discussion about this, but like, just to that point, for all the people out there and, and I think most people probably feel the way you feel the way I feel. Like, I, I don't think I'll speak for you. I, I don't think there's any part of you that even wants LeBron in Boston. Like, it's just more fun having him as a rival and having the history between the two. And like, I. So even, like, let's just say, you know. All right, let. Fine, let's talk about it for a couple minutes. Let's just say in this weird alternate timeline, the Celtics were really in the mix and LeBron was, was choosing between the, you know, take out the Sixers. It's. It's the Heat, it's the Cavs, it's the Celtics. I have said to people, you know, for weeks that, that this has all been going on, that talking heads have tried to make this a discussion. I don't even want the guy. Like, I know he's linked to Boston with Fenway Sports Group and all of that stuff, but I like him as an adversary. I like him as a rival. And oh, by the way, the, this isn't Prime LeBron. He's, you know, it's 41, 42 year old LeBron now. Can he still ball? Sure. Like, can he still help a team? Of course. But I don't, I like, I don't even want it. And, and I, I know that people out there wanted. Yeah, but if he came here, you'd come. You'd be one of those going crazy. He's one of ours now. You're cheering for him left and right. It's like, maybe because I root for the laundry, but I don't, like, I don't want it. I, I have no interest, honestly. It's, it's to it, to some degree, a much smaller degree. Because this guy was never really an enemy, per se. It's kind of how I felt about Kyrie Irving. Like, I didn't want Kyrie Irving. I thought, like that, that just felt icky, for lack of a better word. LeBron is like, you know, that times a million.
- [10:44]
B
I think there's a couple ways that I look at it, right? The rational basketball brain side of me would be very interested because the basketball fit would be incredible. I mean, that's, that's just a fact with where he is even in his elder years, like, you put him next to Jason Tatum and with this collection of, of athletes, like, I don't know, as a basketball player, I'm very interested in his skill set and how he would fit. But I'm also like you where, like, I like having rivals. I grew up and are molded by LeBron hate. Like, that's, that's just all we've known and that's why him going to the Lakers was like an added layer to an already existing rivalry and hatred. So it would be really weird. It's like I'm trying to think if there have been any other. Like you mentioned Kyrie, but there haven't really been that I can think of off the top of my head of these players who, you know, we hated with every fiber of our being that suddenly, like, I didn't hate Garnett, obviously, I didn't hate Ray Allen. I didn't.
- [11:52]
A
It's not Like Jimmy Butler came here as. As many times as Danny Haynes tried.
- [11:57]
B
Yeah. I'm just trying to think of who would be the closest. I mean, probably is Kyrie of like. But he was all. But that's like by association because he was with LeBron. So it's like if Kyrie was even
- [12:08]
A
like Shaq at the very end. Shaq was never really like an enemy.
- [12:12]
B
No. Because.
- [12:13]
A
And he's played everywhere.
- [12:15]
B
And also because when they were super good, you know, we were suffering through seasons where the Celtics couldn't even win 20 games. So it's like Prime Shack wasn't even
- [12:24]
A
on my face with the Lakers in the finals or anything.
- [12:27]
B
Yeah, like it would have, I guess maybe if like Toronto era, Brooklyn era, Vince Carter maybe would have come, you know, during that maybe because I didn't, you know, he always used to rip my heart out. But I don't know, it's just something where it's okay in sports to have villains and you know, I just think not only would he never do it, but it would be kind of a bummer to lose that element because there aren't that many villains left. You know, there's no Kobe's, there's no other LeBron's left. You know, I'm trying to think who would you even say right now is like, you know, even Jimmy Butler, like we won the title, we got over the hump. I don't even think about Jimmy Butler anymore. So it's like Martin, I think it's probably for. See the tough one for me would be someone like Steph Curry because like he ripped my heart out. But I love Steph Curry. So it's like I don't even hate him the same way that we hated LeBron of, you know, the 2010s and onwards. So I don't even know who their, who their rightful like LeBron level hatred player would be. So I can't lose that. You know, for the last couple years that he's in the league, some of
- [13:38]
A
the schadenfreude of listening to guys like KG and Pierce on their podcast, having to talk about LeBron, the Celtics uniform would be kind of funny though, especially
- [13:47]
B
because like Pierce like hates him.
- [13:50]
A
Not hates him. Pierce just thinks he's better than ever. Yeah.
- [13:53]
B
But he, he to his credit went toe to toe, blow for blow, like not. And that was prime LeBron. That wasn't 40 year old LeBron, that was, you know, early height of his powers. So. But that's also what makes the rivalry so much fun, is we can Just troll you and be like, you weren't even better than Paul Pierce. Like, shut up. You know, Like, I don't want to lose that.
- [14:13]
A
Yeah. Like, maybe Dwayne Wade back in the day might have been another one too there. I just think.
- [14:19]
B
Wait, for sure, because, you know, he broke Rondo's elbow, all that stuff. Wade is a good one.
- [14:24]
A
Yeah, the. The press conferences with LeBron, like, every media availability would be insufferable, too, especially during this documented farewell tour. But anyway, this is not a. A LeBron focused show. To go back to why I brought this up with the expectation that LeBron does wind up in the Eastern Conference, you know, whether it's again, Miami, the favorite, Philadelphia, a reunion with Cleveland. And by the way, even though the odds seem to be the longest on Cleveland that I think actually would be, I don't know what his motivation is. You know, is. Is it. Is it to put up numbers? Is it to play with his pals? Is it to go home, or is it to get the ring right? Like, if he's. If he's still chasing Jordan and trying to accumulate as many rings? Like, I think Cleveland is the best fit for him, you know, with what they already have in place and given the fact that the east is wide open. But what I'm curious about is depending on where he goes and. And you can, you know, sort of fill in that blank here within this, if you'd like, what does it mean for the Celtics? Where do the Celtics stack up against a. That adds LeBron within the east?
- [15:34]
B
It's projecting the Celtics is tough because I think we learned last year that, you know, their success is, like, formula based and not necessarily talent based. Right. Because last year we looked at all their names on paper, and you're like, this team, like, how are they even going to compete? But then we saw them play and we saw the formula in which they win in terms of defense, offensive rebounding, limiting turnovers, you know, obviously the, you know, the spacing, the shooting, all that. I don't think, you know, that there's this drastic drop off. So my look at it is they're still gonna. Let's say we assume that they're at that, you know, plus 6, plus 7 net rating. You know, you're in that low to mid-50s range. Like, I don't know, you're gonna be. I think seeds, you know, two through four are all gonna be in that range. So at that point, it probably just comes down to health and, you know, tiebreakers, head to head stuff. So I don't think it's like, man, LeBron joined Team X and now they've jumped the Celtics or you know, I think they're all going to be jumbled together and it'll just come down to availability and you know, head to head, tiebreaker, conference tiebreakers, all that kind of stuff similar to how it was last year, right? Like there wasn't huge separation between the Celtics, Cleveland, the Knicks, like two through four. I feel like we're all two, three games apart from each other. But then as we saw in the playoffs, like it comes down to what it does every year, execution, you know, timely shooting, limiting mistakes, star players playing well, that's still going to be the case no matter who LeBron joins. Even if he goes to Golden State, you're still going to have those same obstacles with the teams, you know, because again, Indiana is going to be better, Toronto is going to be better. So I just think the conference as a whole in the east, in my opinion is the stronger conference. I don't know why people continue to act like the Eastern Conference is like the G League. Because, you know, it's deep, there's high end talent and I think even in the middle and the bottom, those teams like I. Brooklyn has no reason to tank this year. They're gonna try to win. So I just, it's just going to be a much harder year compared to last year just because with the new tanking rules, with the internal improvement. So I don't know, I just. He can go wherever he wants. The Celtics are still gonna have to play, you know, high level basketball to. To be where I think they want to be. Take quick break.
- [18:13]
A
Tell you today's show is powered by prize picks. It's a scorching sports summer and you can make all your picks on prize picks. The WNBA and baseball season of course heating up and with big tennis slams, major golf tournaments, we just had the last one of the year right behind us. But to invest in all of these. How much fun. There's no better place all summer long for your sports picks than prize picks. America's number one sports picks app. Now the biggest stars in women's basketball. It's right around the corner, the all star action in the wnba. It's the heart of the season. There's no better place to run your game on the W than prize picks. Again, America's number one sports picks app. We have got MVPs raising their games to new heights. A rookie class ready to take over right now. All while teams are fighting for playoff positioning. 2 Make a lineup with player stats. Pick game winners, spreads, totals, you name it. 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I do want to talk about Beal, though, because Bradley Beal now is starting to get linked a little bit more to the Celtics and it's not quite the same level of excitement as to when he was a much higher, played, healthier, more durable, better guy with the Wizards still putting up numbers in the league. Now, obviously he struggles to stay healthy and, and perform and be available and even, you know, be a reliable guy when he is on the floor. But he is, you know, at its core, one of Jason Tatum's closest Friends and the St. Louis Connection and all of these things. And it just, you know, they have talked forever, publicly, even about playing together. And the Celtics have the roster spot. They can maybe, maybe have it in theory. They could figure out something financially to make it work. And Tatum is a guy that, look, we don't really know how he feels about the Jalen Brown trade. You know, I know he's spoken on it a little bit, but that's, you know, the way that he's very polished. The way that Tatum talks with the media is not the same conversation he's having with his mom behind the scenes. So we don't know exactly how he feels about losing his running mate. Maybe it's something he's excited about and, and he'll be the, you know, the clear fixture and everything fully like never before is built around him or he's upset that he's lost a guy that can reliably, you know, post 25 plus points on a given night. And that dude is just not in the lineup right now. It's White, it's Pritchard, it's George, guys that could, you know, again, theoretically contribute night to night, but probably not carry you reliably in the way that a Brown was capable of doing. And so you're thinking about your superstar and keeping him happy. And there's an element of appeasing and all of that. Do you think the Celtics want Bradley Beal? Do you think Bradley Beal wants Tatum and the Celtics?
- [24:00]
B
I mean, I think it's in their best interest to at least put out feelers, have conversations. You know, I, I get, I, you know, you could see there was some initial pushback from people of like, what do you need them for? You shouldn't acquiesce to, you know, your best player, blah blah blah. I look at it as basketball business. Like it's in their best interest to find cheap, playable, good talent. And even if you think Bradley Beal is 60 of what he once was, that's still better than your average minimum salary player. And you know, because he's a veteran, minimum, you know, he would sign for 3.9, it counts as 2.5 million. Like those are the swings that an expensive team need to take. You need to find diamonds in the rough with minimum salary talent. Like that's the name of the game for good expensive teams in the new cba. You look at their roster outside of like Jason Tatum and Peyton Pritchard, like there's a case to be made. They don't have a lot of shot creation or you know, ball handling. I think we learned last year that Derrick White really isn't an on ball shot creator type guard. He's more of an off ball type player. At this stage of Paul George's career, he's more of an off ball type player. He can get you some isolation, you know, here and there, but I would never thumb my nose up at a guy who's a proven scorer, ball handler, his passing's okay. Like, you know, the, the relationship stuff I think is a bonus, right? Like I can't imagine Tatum would be upset at signing. Like what are you, you know, like signing Bradley Beal for? That's such a wasted spot. I don't think that would happen. But for me it just comes down to what they do with Dylan Mitchell, right? We don't know what his deal is yet. Is he gonna get the 15th roster spot guaranteed or is he gonna have more of the Jordan Walsh second round exemption deal where it's, you know, a four year non guaranteed, where that doesn't count towards your 15th roster spot if you know if he's gonna get the 15 spot? They're not going to be in on Bradley Beal because I don't think they're going to cut anybody to bring him in. But from a skill set standpoint, in combination with the price, I can't imagine why a single Celtic fan would be against it because you it's a low risk, high reward from a talent standpoint. And that's exactly what they need to do with the back end of their roster. Which is why the Walsh and The Ron Harper Jr extensions are so valuable. Because you're getting NBA caliber rotation production and talent for peanut like that is the whole, like if you have a 35% cap hit player on your roster, the Celtics have two. Like those are the types of, you know, players and salary slots you need to find.
- [26:58]
A
I know you were glued to all things summer league and updating the crush list and you know, attending some of these games and all of that stuff, but, you know, coming out of it. And again, I don't care about win loss record for the summer Celtics or any of that. More fun when you win, of course, if you're watching a game but ultimately doesn't mean anything. No, nobody's hanging a summer league banner in Boston. Which of those guys though did you look at and say, okay, you know, after we had again, Harper, Ugo, you know, Shireman and Walsh and you know, so many of these guys that were making nothing over the course of the year that proved to be, you know, genuine rotational pieces to this team. Who from summer league and you know, Ugo, obviously. But beyond that, who from summer league said, did you look at and say, okay, these guys are, you know, however back end it may be, these guys are part of this year's Celtics rotation.
- [27:57]
B
Well, I don't know if anybody has, you know, it's not like Snack or Dylan Mitchell or anybody won't spend time in Maine. I just think that's just going to be part of their developmental journey. Having said that, Snack looks and fits the bill of a player both from a positional need standpoint and just how he plays that you could see him get like if, you know, Mitchell Robinson gets hurt or you know, someone, you know, has a rest day and they bring him up from Maine. He is someone that was really intriguing because he showed the versatility of being able to guard switches, his offensive rebounding. He has like a. It's similar to Mitchell Robinson where it just feels like he has like a magnet to the ball where like when the ball goes up, he's just around it, whether it's tipping it, getting the rebounding. I was really intrigued by his blocks and his rim protection because that wasn't something, you know, he was really, you know, known for at Houston. But right away you saw the athleticism. Offensively, it's like, it's a disaster. He can't really set screens. He's super raw offensively. But that just reminds me of, you know, if. When we remembered preseason last year in the early stages, like, if you rebounded and if you hit the offensive glass, Joe was going to find a role for you, you know, some way somehow. And he's the guy to me that says, okay, he might be able to fill that role of just the energy rebounding, kind of just Swiss army knife player. And then you just have to hope that he's. His offense is just like put backs and lobs. Like, you're not going to give it to him and say, you know, go to work. But it will be in limited spot minutes. I don't. I can't imagine, you know, anybody will have a role that's like greater than what we saw Luca Garza as, the third or fourth big. But also, let's not forget about Amari, right? Like, I'm really intrigued about Amari Williams from, you know, because I do think we need to kind of see what he's got. We need to make a decision one way or another on his extension coming up here shortly. I think they picked up his team option, but, you know, they need to make a decision on him. So it would be nice if we could see, you know, I want to see them run some offense, you know, out of the. The high post with him. He's a great passer, but I do worry about his motor. Like, he doesn't have that same type of energy that Snack does, and that's why I would probably lean him. But both show things, you know, over the summer that you just have to hope would then translate to preseason. And then if it looks good in preseason, you're like, all right, five to ten minutes here and there, like, let's see what they can do.
- [30:44]
A
You know, we spent I don't know how many man hours last off season, preseason, early regular season talking about just how like G league front court the Celtics were dealing with and how terrible on paper it appeared to be to their credit. Part of it was performance, obviously a big step forward for Keda. Garza improved as the year went on. You know, a little bit flashes of emergence there for Amari and you know, stylistically the way they played and that's a credit to the coaching staff. You know, it. It didn't expose them. It was almost advantageous, quite frankly, the way they went. Then, of course, playoffs show up and, you know, they are who we thought they were kind of thing. But as you look at now the guys that you mentioned, whether it's Sanak getting an opportunity. Amari, year two with theoretically a larger role. Keda, after showing what he did last year and now in a, A, you know, more opportune position for him, clearly in knowing what his strengths can be and going out and, you know, signing, you know, they're a little, I don't know, some. There was some mixed opinion to some degree in terms of just what he brings you, but, you know, arguably the best free agent center available to you. Even though.
- [32:00]
B
Right. Top of the market.
- [32:01]
A
Yeah. I mean, based on social media, it looks like he still wishes he was a Nick. But putting that aside, Mitchell Robinson is now a Celtic. And so if you're looking at this group going into the year, how do you shape it up now, you know, comparative to how you felt about the front court a year ago?
- [32:17]
B
So this is sort of what I meant when I said that the, the way that they won was, you know, a bit of a formula. Right. They realized that their best, that the way forward in this new CBA world is maximizing your possessions. They are going to have the best offensive rebounding front court in the NBA by a wide margin. Right. Luger Garza is already an elite offensive rebounder. Keda already in the elite offensive rebounder. Mitchell Robinson is quite literally the greatest offensive rebounder in NBA history. So the, the importance of that is. I think we all remember playing the Knicks, how frustrating it was every time he was on the court. He's always just tipping the ball, getting rebounds, keeping possessions alive. So I think what we're seeing is them leaning into that formula of maximizing possessions, dominating the offensive glass, limiting turnovers, you know, those, you know, are any of them going to be able to stop and beat or Wemby? I think Mitchell Robinson is an upgrade, you know, just in terms of their individual defense. You won't have to necessarily play as much drop coverage. He's pretty quick. He's much quicker than Keda. He's much quicker, you know, has quicker feet than, than Garza does. Which is also why I'm intrigued with Snack just from an athletic standpoint. So I think we're gonna see all of the positive areas that last year's front court gave us and why it was such a surprise. Only now it's like they've enhanced it. It's that on steroids in the particular areas that they thrived in. Right. Like they still don't have outside of Garza and Keda a little bit. But like, this isn't like dumping the ball down to Porzingis or Horford in the post. And you know, I, I don't think they'll have a skyrocketed post up offense like they did during the title years, whereas last year they completely avoided post ops. I think that will mostly stay the same, but I think this year with the internal improvement from Garza and Keda and then the, the added talent with Mitchell and Sanak, it's a much more formidable front court where I don't have as much questions like I know what to expect now and I think that's just the biggest difference. All last year we didn't know what to expect from Baylor, from Garza, from Walsh, from Ugo. Like it was all their first time really having a legit role and it could have gone two ways. The fact that it went pretty well I think is encouraging. And now you just have to remember they're all going to get the Jason Tatum boost. Like we cannot underestimate the Jason Tatum bump. So we saw what that looked like for the Coronets of the world. Well imagine what Cata looks like with a full year of Jason Tatum. I just think that could be the biggest factor in everything when comparing this year to last year.
- [35:14]
A
To that end, I don't remember what the win total was going into last season. I want to say it was maybe like 48 and a half somewhere in that range.
- [35:21]
B
Obviously some had it lower, some had it like in the low 40s.
- [35:25]
A
Yeah, that it may have been. I, I again I just don't remember. But what we do know is they, whatever it was they well exceeded it. Winning the kind of fraudulent 56, albeit struggling against the best teams in the NBA, Brad's famous 3 and 11, all that stuff. But this year 51 and a half is what it is right now and I'm not going to ask you, we don't worry about over unders in in this moment. Again it's late July. But I do think a lot of people, Celtics fans included, despite the trade of Jalen Brown three and a half four weeks ago. Look at these. You know two rosters, last year's opening night roster, this year's perceived opening night roster. You look at the two on paper and you say I mean this year's roster is better on paper than last year's. You know yes, the Brown subtraction hurts. People debate how much it hurts based on all the analytics and on off splits and net negative and yada yada. But obviously getting a healthy Chase and Tatum back provided he is full health and doesn't have to be load managed more than we would like to see. Team's intriguing. Is it a contender? I don't think so, but it's intriguing at the very least. What is. And again, things can change. We're still a couple months out. You know, like you said, 76 days from the start of even, you know, preseason action, let alone regular season action. But what for you in late July is the greatest unknown entering the season?
- [36:51]
B
The greatest on, I would still say I don't know if they've solved any of their playoff issues. You know, the shot creation. I'm, I'm hoping and praying that Derrick White's shooting struggles was a one off because they cannot survive another season where he's shooting 30 from the floor. Like they just can't. He's too important. And now with Jalen gone and the health concerns around Paul, George being, you never know. You can't just bank on him being there. That, that's really concerning to me. But also I just, you know, I'm not sure that we all want to hope that progress is linear, but it doesn't always work out that way. Right. Like we saw Baylor take a jump, Walsh take a jump. Well, what if they plateau or what if they regress in some areas? Like that's just the thought of, you know, the hope is that they'll continue an upward trajectory, but it doesn't always work out that way. So if they're getting a little less around, like there's a world in my irrational fear where last year was the best case scenario in terms of that collection of talent. Because remember, they didn't really have too many injury issues outside of Tatum's, you know, Achilles. Right. Like they didn't really have an injury bug. So if that, then, you know, we're relying on two main pieces that don't have the best injury history. So that could impact things as well. Well, now, you know, it just puts even more stress on guys because George is out or Mitchell's out. And then if you get any sort of regression, you're probably not going to have that same effectiveness. But then on the flip side, the things that you did well, you've now enhanced like Jalen for as incredible as he was as that number one guy, there's a giant, there's a Grand Canyon size difference between Jalen being in that role and Tatum being in that role just for what happens on both ends of the floor of how they play, of what their ceilings are. So it's like that could Very well be the thing that sort of balances out any sort of regression. Like, what if. What if Hugo has a sophomore slump, which is totally normal and happens to a ton of really good players? Just like, remember the Grant Williams sophomore slump? Like, he couldn't make a shot. And then in year three, he was fine. So those are just small, irrational things that I just think can add up over the course of 82 games. But then once we get into the real games and the playoffs, like, okay, we're going to double Jason Tatum. How do you. Like, how do you beat us? Who's going to be the guy that makes us pay? I don't know if I feel great about any of their options, especially if Derrick White literally misses every shot he takes for an entire playoff series. Like, that's how you're going to lose to a team like the Sixers that you should probably beat. Because Tatum can only do so much as, you know, the main guy. He, you know, you need your an, like, look at the Knicks this year. They had such great contributions from their ancillary pieces, just like the Thunder did during their title, just like the Celtics did during their title. Like, you need your second, third, fourth, fifth options to all consistently contribute. And we're, you know, relying on guys. We don't know if Jordan Walsh is a proven playoff shooter. We don't know if Baylor Shireman is a proven playoff shooter. Ugo barely played. So it's just a lot of the same questions we had last year where it's more nervousness around the unknown then we know. These guys stink. They can't do it. It's like, they could do it, but they could regress. We just have to wait and see.
- [40:41]
A
I wasn't by any means looking forward to Jason Tatum's absence last year, but I was simultaneously excited to see what Jalen Brown as the one looked like and, you know, how everything would be built around him and how he would perform and all of that. Obviously, we saw it. He performed well. He had a career year. He's off in Philly. We'll see what it looks like when he's, you know, now theoretically buried behind Embiid, when he's healthy and Maxi and the emergence of Edgecomb as. As he continues to develop again, Philadelphia, you know, just that that team screams is only one basketball to me. So I'm really interested to see what that looks like. But for the Celtics, are you as interested in, okay, what does Jason Tatum look like now without Jaylen Brown? As you were. What does Brown look like without Tatum?
- [41:34]
B
Yes and no. I'm interested in the point that this will easily be the highest usage season of his career. So that's gonna, that's gonna lead us to more shots, more free throws. You know, that is exciting. But I already know what it looks like when Jason Tatum runs a team because he's been doing it for eight years.
- [41:55]
A
Sure.
- [41:55]
B
You know, like they, he still leaves the team in touches, he still always led the team in usage. It's just there was another guy that was right, you know, he was at 31% usage. Jalen was at 30. Like they were neck and neck, but he still led the team. I know what Tatum looks like as a 1A type player.
- [42:14]
A
Sure.
- [42:15]
B
I think the intrigue around last year was. This was Jalen's first time of assuming that responsibility while not having the running mate, I think.
- [42:25]
A
Right. But even if Tatum and obviously, yeah, he ran the offense, he had the edge, but there's a difference between edge and overwhelming. You know, now there's no running mate now.
- [42:37]
B
Right. The intrigue is. It's 33, 34 usage and the next highest will probably be like Peyton Pritchard at 20. You know, like there's going to be a substantial. That's the difference. But in terms of like, I don't have the same questions or concerns about Tatum's ability to be the lead guy, which I think is what the question was. And the intrigue was around Jalen season and why his year was a surprise to a lot of people because there wasn't a drop off. Right. Like we all, you all just said it. You look at this team on paper, people will say it's just as good. I'm someone who believes there should be little to no, you know, production drop off in terms of offensive rating. You know, overall, like they should still be a mid-50s win team. That's a, that's a different mindset than a lot of people had entering last year where they thought it was going to be a play in reset, rebuild, tanking type year. To me, that's the confidence in Jayson Tatum.
- [43:39]
A
And well, let me though because to your point with Brown, it it with Brown as the one, it was like, okay, like can he do it? That's not the question. With Tatum, we know he can do it. But the question with Tatum to some degree is is there another gear like this guy is, you know, he's, he's right thick in his prime years. Now he's right in the middle. He's still the, you know, health depending the best version of Himself, he's coming off this injury, I think last year's experience for him, just knocking the rust off and proving to himself his body still works. And, you know, there was a lot of value in him playing the last quarter of the year into the playoffs. So now with a full training camp, a full off season, you know, hopefully he's fully healed from this injury. I don't know what kind of lingering effects he's still dealing with, if any, but he goes into this year, you know, that it's. It's not like if he didn't play last year, we'd still have all sorts of concerns or questions at the very least, about what Jason Tatum are we getting. I think we know what Jason Tatum we're getting.
- [44:42]
B
I think we're getting at least 95.
- [44:44]
A
Even better one. Is it an elevated version because there's no Brown in the way?
- [44:50]
B
I think it would depend on what. How you would define elevated. Right? Like, if he puts up, you know, 39 and 7, like, that's. I feel like his baseline is for any other normal player, you'd be like, holy, he just had a. A career. Insane. But, like, that's just who he is. So I look at it more when I think of an improved version of Tatum. I'm looking at, can he avoid the. I don't want to say inconsistency because he's not inconsistent, but, like, there's much less margin for error with this roster to survive the, like, 6 for 25s. Right? Like, when Jalen went 6 for 25 last year, it was very hard for the Celtics to win those games. Like, that's just the nature. Because when there's. When they're both not on the floor, you know, that's what was always so great about the duo was like, man, if Tatum had a slow start, Jalen was there in the first quarter to. To settle things down and to be there, you know, when. When Jalen was disappearing late in games, maybe Tatum was there to step up and be that guy. They don't have that crutch for one another. So that's the intrigue I have in just does how does he shape his game? And does he shape his game, whether it's shot profile or what have you, that potentially, you know, raises the floor of what he can be, which also elevates his ceiling. Because if he can figure out, you know, if it's substituting, you know, low percentage looks with, you know, a different shot profile because they need to be more efficient, that's going to take things to the next level, both for the team and for him. So it's not. I don't look at it like, man, he's going to average 35 like that stuff, because, you know, to me, that's just normal Jason Tatum. For me, it'll be, how does he change? And if he does change, sort of how he approaches his offensive load, knowing that, like, they can't. Especially, again, if White can't shoot and Paul George is injured, like, they can't afford Tatum Stinkers, the same way we learned that they couldn't really afford Jaylen Brown Stinkers. And that's why I think his usage was so high, because it was like, somebody has to score because we haven't scored for seven minutes, because nobody else can make a shot. Those are the things that I'm kind of watching out for in this new role for him, because this is it. Like. Like you said, it's fully on him. There's going to be nobody close to him in the pecking order, in the usage order. Like, this is all on him. I tend to think what we saw last year let us know that, like, he's the Jason Tatum we remember, and he's going to be ready for that moment, but it's a moment he's never had. You know, we don't know if psychologically, you know, there was a comfort in knowing we have enough. We have another guy here that can shoulder the load if need be. I tend to think he wants to shoulder that load himself, and he wants to, you know, be a leading candidate for MVP and he wants to, you know, assume that role that. I think watching Jalen's role last year was probably pretty, you know, enticing for him. And now that he's been given that same opportunity, I'm of full belief, you know, barring health, he will have easily the biggest and best year of his career.
- [48:27]
A
Going into last year, I remember there was, you know, all the stuff with Joe Missoula, the call with Derek White, you know, everyone thinks we're gonna suck and all that stuff. Play. Obviously he was excited about the challenge of fm. We're gonna prove everybody wrong. And I think Joe is just wired that way. Joe looks for the positives. You know, the. The whole thing with. I'm trying to remember exactly what the. The example was with. With Jason Tatum, with, you know, maybe it was with his rehab, and it was like, he has to go through. It's like, no, he gets to go.
- [48:57]
B
It was during the Netflix special that the guy was like, how do you, you know, what do you think about Tatum dealing with all this unfair criticism?
- [49:05]
A
Right.
- [49:06]
B
He gets to deal with it. It's a, It's a privilege to, like, this is what you wanted. And I agree with that.
- [49:11]
A
Yeah. So the way, so the way that Joe frames things, shape things, you know, looks for kind of that, that psychological life coach kind of mentality around it. He and Brad Stevens are wired very similarly in that way. I think that's why they get along as they do and why, obviously Brad is, is such an advocate for Joe, but this year, you know, especially with the way they've, you know, changed aspects of the roster, Lord knows Joe is, is salivating at what Mitchell Robinson will be able to do on the floor on the offensive glass. Like, you know, many have discussed and, and you alluded to as well. But what do you think Joe's mentality is as he looks at this team and the challenge that's in front of him as compared to last year or the year before when it was still championship expectations?
- [49:58]
B
I think what's really important in his mindset is, and he says it all the time, you know, like, you can't buy the, the, you know, too much into the, the good times, and you can't buy it too bad into the bad times.
- [50:11]
A
Right?
- [50:12]
B
So last year it was, everyone thinks we're gonna suck. You know, that's the motivation. I think, you know, now that everyone might think they might be awesome. It's, you know, blocking that out and just being focused on what goes into. He says it all the time. What goes into winning and being the best versions of themselves. I think he knows how good they are. He knows how they need to play in order to be successful. And I think now is the different challenge of, you know, they're not going to be a surprise anymore. Right? Like, that's what was so sort of intoxicating of last year, is like, all these guys are coming out, all these young guys are coming out of nowhere and just playing above their weight. Well, now there's like a different challenge of do it again. Because in the NBA, like, all these players are so good that anybody can, you know, have a great night or great, you know, season one time. You can do it once. The real challenge in the NBA is night in, night out, consistency. So I think that is a challenge in and of itself of like, sure, you guys, we were awesome last year. We won 56 games. You also blew a 31 lead. You know, like, you also had the most horrific collapse in franchise history. So it's like you don't exactly need to be smelling your own farts and thinking you're God's gift to, you know, the NBA, because that was pretty terrible. And we were fully healthy for the most part in that collapse. So it's, it's something where I think he'll be able to find motivation of, yeah, you did it once, but, like, congratulations, you have to do it again and again and again, and you have to be even better. And all you young guys, you want to fight for minutes. Like, that's still an open competition. I look at it like that scene in the Dark Knight where the Joker has the pool stick and he's like, we have one. We have one spot open for 20 minutes a night. Jordan Walsh, Baylor Shireman, Ugo. Break the stick. Like, fight it out. You know, you, you have to earn your spot in that. And I think that's going to be fascinating to watch. Just like it was last year where it's like, you know, there was the stretch where Minot had the job, and then it was Jordan Walsh, and then it was Ugo and then it was Baylor because nobody was beholden to that roster spot. And I think that type of motivation is what got the best out of them. And now that they've all been paid, like, Jordan Walsh doesn't have to worry about, man, I haven't played in three weeks. Like, what am I going to do? What's my future in the NBA going to be? Like, all of that stuff is taken care of. His security is locked in. Now you can just focus on the basketball side. Same thing with Keda. Like, you know, oh, man, like, what am I, you know, I struggled in the playoffs or, you know, I can't stop falling. What is my, what's my future going to look like? Well, you were just given a top of the market mle per year deal, right? Baylor, I imagine, will be extended next summer. So it's like, those are the kind of things that I think matter, especially for young guys who get inconsistent minutes where, you know, Joe may not play you or he may. You may give up an offensive rebound and then he pulls you right away. Like, you won't have to worry about the business side, which then as we know, can bleed into the basketball side because now you're overthinking your mistakes. Like, same with Ron Harper Jr. He's locked in three next three years. So I'm really interested to see now that there's the financial security, what that does for them in terms of their, their basketball production.
- [53:46]
A
Still a lot to unpack in the months to come. Again, 76 days before we get to preseason game one on October 8th, and a couple of matchups with the Philadelphia 76ers. Will Jaylen Brown appear in either of those? I kind of doubt it, but. But we'll see what all of that ends up looking like as we get much, much closer to the fall months. Remember, check out Celtics content across the CLNS network. You can find not only our show, a number of other great shows, the Celtics All Access page available to you. You can rate, review subscribe we love looking at your LinkedIn or here LinkedIn. Are you posting on LinkedIn? We love looking at your comments across YouTube. I Fernando Mendoza on the brain posting on LinkedIn. I'm not entirely sure, but do make sure you post your comments. We will, you know, always review them, occasionally respond to them, and sometimes bring them to air here as well. And of course, wherever you get your podcast, if you want just the audio version, you can find us over there as well. Spotify, Pandora, you name it, we are there. Want to thank Bailey behind the scenes. Evan, hope you're having a wonderful vacation. Dan Greenberg here is on Twitter at Stool Greeny and Voice of the Fan. Always, always out there going back and forth with the people getting his mentions. He will respond.
- [55:00]
B
This is. I will.
- [55:01]
A
I have.
- [55:01]
B
As you said, we got 76 days. I have nothing but time, you know, to, I don't know if it's the, to the betterment of my psyche. But listen, I'm, I'm a nobody. So, you know, if you, if you chat me, I'm. I'm there. I'll see it. I'll respond.
- [55:15]
A
So, I mean, you, you weren't on the Family Feud with your barstool cohorts. So that was, that was.
- [55:23]
B
That was. I don't know if I would have helped any. But listen, no press is, is bad press. So, you know, you're in the history books one way or another.
- [55:31]
A
That's what they say. All right. For Dan, for Bailey. I'm Adam. Thanks so much for watching. We'll catch you guys again next week as we wrap up July and turn that page to August. Maybe there's another Kyrie Irving related move that will drop late August and, and drive everybody crazy till then. We'll catch you on south and Spe.