Mother of All Stories: A Daughter Falls Under A Spell

Summary

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Chameleon—Mother of All Stories: A Daughter Falls Under A Spell

Podcast: Chameleon

Host: Josh Dean | Audiochuck & Campside Media

Release Date: June 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, journalist Josh Dean unpacks the tumultuous and unsettling childhood of Heidi Cloud, an advocate for sex trafficking survivors, to reveal how her experience growing up at the hands of a manipulative, unstable mother set the stage for her later work helping others. The story—a rare, inside look at parental manipulation, generational deception, and the justice system's inability to protect—unfolds through Heidi’s candid storytelling. This first installment charts the journey from Heidi’s early years in an evangelical household to her forced estrangement from her father, culminating in a shocking, headline-making court case that would forever change her life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Heidi’s Background and Mission ([01:57]–[03:14])

• Heidi introduces herself as an advocate and counselor supporting sex trafficking survivors, her professional drive rooted in her personal history.
• She describes her journey from dreaming of Harvard to working in fields that let her “uncover and seek truth.”
  • Quote:

    “There was this part of me that was like, let me uncover things, right?... Maybe I have a real baby face. I could do undercover work and catch pedophiles.”—Heidi Cloud, [02:54]

2. The Family’s Evangelical Roots and Early Dysfunction ([03:36]–[05:34])

• Heidi’s parents, Kathy Marshall and Sheldon Nussbaum, met at Bible college amid the 1980s evangelical megachurch environment.
• Heidi reveals the absence of true affection in her parents’ marriage, citing her father's admission of past love for someone else and her mother's manipulative tendencies.
• Her father’s family sensed dysfunction from the start.
  • Quote:

    “My dad's family was like, there's something not right about her... But he was the baby of the family, and he had a hero complex”—Heidi Cloud, [05:18]

3. Early Trauma: Mental Health and Kidnapping ([05:41]–[07:09])

• Kathy’s unaddressed mental health issues reached a crisis during Heidi’s childhood, climaxing in a failed institutional intervention and subsequent kidnapping of her own children on Heidi’s birthday.
  • Quote:

    "They came to put her in a mental institution and she kidnapped us."—Heidi Cloud, [05:41]

• Heidi describes the incident as fragmented, remembered in "little patches."
• Despite clear danger, 1980s custody laws favored mothers; Kathy retained legal guardianship.

4. Relocations and Escalating Instability ([08:09]–[09:30])

• Heidi recounts escaping in the middle of the night with her mother’s new boyfriend, “Vince,” eventually settling in Chicago.
  • Quote:

    “We had to go over the balcony... Vince was with a U-Haul, and she drove us to Chicago.”—Heidi Cloud, [08:31]

• She likens the experience to being caught in a tornado—her life upended without warning.

5. Generational Deception: The Mob Connection ([11:54]–[15:26])

• At her grandparents’ Chicago apartment, Heidi uncovers more about her family history: her grandmother was “a kept woman” of a mobster, and her household ran on secrets and duplicity.
  • Quote:

    “She had a penthouse in the city. She had mink, she had diamonds... My grandfather worked at Oscar Mayer Wiener... so it was like how did Papa afford this lifestyle?”—Heidi Cloud, [12:26]

• Heidi learns about sexual manipulation, performative glamour, and cons as family legacies.

6. Cycle of Abuse & Survival Instincts ([16:15]–[17:38])

• Describes enduring physical abuse from both mother and grandmother, the emotional complexity of missing her father, and her role as scapegoat or “red cloth” to protect her younger sister.
• Heidi regularly called her father, longing for escape but unwilling to leave her sister behind.

7. More Criminality: Kathy’s Romantic Partners ([18:43]–[20:44])

• Kathy’s partners were often con artists, which she admired. “Vince” (actually Sammy)—a convicted criminal—provided Heidi with tools for escape, including a fake birth certificate and a pager.
  • Quote:

    “He was looking up obituaries to steal people's identity... Do you want to run away with me?”—Heidi Cloud, [19:17]

8. Attempted Escapes and Childhood Runaway ([23:14]–[30:03])

• At 12, fearful of her mother’s reaction to a school infraction, Heidi plotted to run away and live in a backyard shed. Her dad tries to reassure her, but she persists and briefly disappears.
• The police are called; her mother uses the opportunity to further paint Heidi’s father as a villain.
• Kathy launches into an orchestrated campaign, telling Heidi wild stories about her father being a “warlock” engaged in occult abuse, effectively gaslighting her daughter.
  • Quote:

    “She was dumping all this crazy stuff that doesn’t make sense to me.”—Heidi Cloud, [28:11] “The only thing I could cling onto was, my mom doesn’t hate me.”—Heidi Cloud, [29:26]

9. Manipulation of the Legal System ([30:03]–[36:24])

• Kathy blocks visitation, accuses Sheldon of abuse during family court hearings, and manipulates the girls with coached stories for court psychologists.
• Despite recognizing manipulation and lack of credible evidence, the judge finds himself stymied by the girls’ refusal to see their father.
  • Notable Moment:
    Heidi and her 7-year-old sister both refuse in open court, under maternal coaching.

10. A Shocking Precedent: Child Sentenced to Juvenile Detention ([36:24]–[37:17])

• In a historic move, the judge sentences 12-year-old Heidi to indefinite juvenile detention for contempt of court—a case that makes national headlines.
  • Quote:

    “You are the most rebellious, defiant young lady to ever enter my courtroom. I hereby sentence you indefinitely to juvenile detention.”—Judge to Heidi, recounted by Heidi [35:31]

  • News Montage:

    “I only want Mommy. Unbelievable. The judge threw the young girl in jail.”—News reporter [36:51] “This Judge ordered this 12 year old child shackled in jail for refusing to visit her father after a bitter divorce.”—Kathy Marshall, [36:59]

11. Media Frenzy & Kathy’s Victim Narrative ([37:17]–[39:39])

• Media frames Kathy as a heroic mother protecting her children from judicial abuse. She leverages public sympathy for financial support, attention, and status.
  • Quote:

    “She became everybody's, like, heroic mother fighting for children's rights... but she got to capitalize on it, and she still capitalizes on it.”—Heidi Cloud, [39:17]

12. Enduring Trauma and Long-Term Consequences ([40:08]–[42:26])

• Heidi describes how the experience left her traumatized—even her mother’s lawyer recognized this and worked pro bono at times.
• Heidi was isolated from her father for nearly a decade as a direct result of her mother’s manipulation and the court debacle.
  • Quote:

    “I had every sign of an abused, traumatized child, because I was.”—Heidi Cloud, [40:25] “After this, Heidi doesn't see her dad at all until she's 20.”—Josh Dean, [42:26]

13. Looking Back ([41:10]–[42:26])

• As an adult, Heidi discovers newspaper archives about her case, realizing what was really happening. She reflects on how reading these might have altered her choices and her trauma.
  • Quote:

    “I wasn't allowed to read the newspapers, which I just did for the first time this summer... I just cried so hard.”—Heidi Cloud, [41:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Somebody dropped a house on you... the house falls, and you're, like, in Oz... wtf, right? Like, that would be my mom and my life, I feel like, in a nutshell,” —Heidi Cloud ([09:11])
• On generational patterns:
  “My mother has always been very superficial and wanted things that were unrealistic, which is why she cons people to get ‘em.” —Heidi Cloud ([14:42])
• On the power of maternal manipulation:
  “He saw that there was a lot of maternal manipulation... there wasn't a lot of validation.” —Heidi Cloud ([32:01])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Heidi’s Professional Background & Motivations: [01:57]–[03:14]
• Early Family Dysfunction & Mental Health Crisis: [05:41]–[07:09]
• Chicago Move & Family Secrets: [08:31]–[15:26]
• Runaway Incident & Maternal Gaslighting: [23:14]–[30:03]
• Courtroom Showdown & Juvenile Detention: [36:24]–[37:17]
• Media Attention and Aftermath: [37:17]–[41:01]
• Heidi’s Reflection & Adult Perspective: [41:10]–[42:26]

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Tone & Narrative Style

The episode balances journalistic rigor and empathetic storytelling, capturing both Heidi’s forthright, sometimes darkly humorous voice and the chilling reality of her childhood. The narrative draws listeners into the emotional and psychological complexity of surviving maternal manipulation and systemic failures, often letting Heidi’s raw, unfiltered language drive the most impactful insights.

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Takeaway

This episode of Chameleon is a searing, stranger-than-fiction coming-of-age story that exemplifies the podcast’s core theme: life among deceivers. Through Heidi Cloud’s journey—interviewed with honesty and a touch of gallows humor—listeners are confronted with the damage caused by women who con and the tragic collateral of a justice system ill-equipped to protect children from manipulative parents. The narrative sets the stage for an even more intense second installment.

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Next Episode Preview:
Part Two promises further revelations: Kathy’s disappearance, the trail of devastation she leaves, and Heidi’s eventual struggle for freedom and truth.

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Transcript

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[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

campsite media

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

hello.

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What is.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

What do you want me to say? Chameleon Chameleon Chameleon Weekly I'm Heidi Cloud and I'm an advocate and case manager for sex trafficking survivors and I'm also a professional school counselor.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi works for an organization supporting survivors of sex trafficking. Her job is about helping people repair and understand what are often fragile and deeply unfair lives.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I started from like aspirations of going to Harvard and being a lawyer or congresswoman and to just wanting to invoke change and helping others.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Digging a bit deeper, Heidi's resume reveals someone who is interested in two protecting people and spotting lies. She has three degrees in criminal justice, plus a master's in counseling. She was also a private investigator for five years.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

There was this part of me that was like, let me uncover things, right? And I was like, maybe I have a real baby face. I could do undercover work and catch pedophiles. So, yeah, I think where I came from definitely influenced career choices and helping people and uncover and seek truth, that's for sure.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Once you understand the almost unbelievable, heartbreaking journey Heidi has gone on to get where she is today, you'll understand what she means. Because basically, what Heidi is doing now is informed by her own experience and through her own survival. Her journey begins where all of our stories ultimately do with parents.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Praise the Lord.

[Talkspace Announcer]

She does things that she has done.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Kathy Marshall and Sheldon Nussbaum met at Bible college in North Carolina in the early 1980s. This was part of the evangelical Christian TV megachurch world of Tammy Faye Baker and her husband, Jim. Honestly, Tammy Faye deserves a whole episode by herself. But for now, you just need to know that Heidi's parents had a shared affinity for the religious, the evangelical, and the theatrically intense.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

My sister and I were really limited on our exposure. We were raised evangelical, so we were really sheltered in a sense, so there was nothing to compare. That my reality in my life was not normal.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Her parents had met and fallen in love, or at least something that looked a lot like love from the outside.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

The boomer generation. It just felt like marriage was more of a, like, you work and, you know, like, nothing felt like, we're so super romantically in love with each other. We enjoy spending time.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This is according to her dad.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He was saying, like, how he was in love with this other girl when my mom went on a mission trip to Jamaica, and I was like, so why did you marry her? You know, like, that also doesn't seem fair to her. And then apparently, my mom basically told everybody at Bible college they were engaged, and he never proposed. So then he also felt obligated.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The couple married in January 1982, but Sheldon's family had reservations about the union.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

My dad's family was like, there's something not right about her. And, like, we've got a car. Like, we can ditch the wedding at any time. But he was the baby of the family, and he had a hero complex, and I guess he thought he could fix her. I don't Think it turned out well for him?

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

I can't stress enough. Heidi's not kidding. This would not turn out well for anyone.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

This is my first great birthday party. It was a sleepover with pizza and it was crazy because they came to put her in a mental institution and she kidnapped us.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

It was clear to everyone that Kathy, Heidi's mom, struggled with her mental health.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Some things were reported and she had the option to like go for a self evaluation and seek help or they were going to basically 1013.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Her 1013 is shorthand for an involuntary psychiatric evaluation, usually for when professionals believe someone may be a danger to themselves or others due to their mental health. But as is so often the case with people who are sick in this way, having it confirmed is unthinkable and terrifying. This is exactly how Kathy responded.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

So she ran and somehow it fell on my birthday party. Yay me. So like my aunt showed up and this lady that was supposed to take my mom and my dad was somewhere else because he couldn't chaperone like a little girl sleepover. And yeah, she freaked out and assaulted everybody and kidnapped us.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi was only five or six, so she can be forgiven for not remembering all the details. But she has a hazy recollection of time spent in hotels, of being in the car with boxes piled up around her and her baby sister Rachel.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I have little patches of memory until like we show back up again.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The next clear memory Heidi has is when she, her sister and her mom resurfaced at her maternal grandparents house about a week later.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

According to my dad, we were probably gone for, you know, at least a week or so.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This incident marked the end of a tumultuous relationship for Heidi's parents. Because they were married. Sheldon had a hard time getting the police to take what Kathy had done seriously. And despite concerns about her mental health. What am I saying? Despite the kidnapping, somehow Kathie ended up with custody of Heidi and her little sister. Which at the time wasn't that shocking.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I mean, that's in the 80s. All women get custody, right? So like that was just kind of the thing. It was very abnormal if a father did. But my dad got us every Wednesday and every weekend.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This time with her dad quickly became a lifeline for Heidi. But the imperfect arrangement didn't last. One night, a bleary eyed Heidi was coaxed awake by her mom in the middle of the night.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

She wakes me up and she was like, hey, we gotta go. And it was a Tuesday. And I remember it was a Tuesday because my dad got us on Wednesdays. And so I always looked forward to visitation with my dad because that's when. When my life was safe and good.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Rachel was still asleep in her cot as Heidi was corralled into helping pack up their stuff along with her mom's new boyfriend, Vince.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

We couldn't go out the front door like normal people. We were on the first floor, so she made us pack up and we had to go, like, over the balcony. So we had to climb over, go down this, like, grassy knoll. It went down. There was, like, a little volleyball court out there. And then Vince was with a U haul, and we loaded up the U haul and she drove us to Chicago. So my dad showed up for visitation and nobody was there.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi and Rachel would spend the rest of their childhood in Chicago. I honestly don't know how to begin to describe what follows, but here's how it felt to Heidi.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Somebody dropped a house on you. Like, you got sucked up in a twister and everything is going round. And then, like, the house falls and you're, like, in awesome, and you're like, wtf, right? Like, that would be my mom and my life. I feel like, in a nutshell, Heidi

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

was entering a world of lies, chaos, even danger that it would take her many years to really understand.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

What is the old saying about being, like, in a boiling pot of water, Right? Like, you don't know you're in a boiling pot of water if you've always been in a pot of water.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Well, that can apply to humans, too. I'm Josh Dean, and this is Chameleon, a show about people who put on disguises. This week, a story about survival and the slow, painful realization that the person who's supposed to protect you might be the one you need protecting from.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

There's two things that can be true. You can have a mental illness, and you can be a con artist, and she is 100% both.

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[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This is Chameleon the Weekly When Heidi and Rachel were pulled out of their home in North Carolina and taken to Chicago by their mom, they all wound up living at their grandparents house. Kathy's parents had a long history with the city. There are parts of this history that help explain the person Kathy became and what sort of mom she was. Heidi's grandfather was a Baptist minister. He also had a job working for a hot dog company. But he wasn't earning enough to meet the lifestyle expectations of his wife, Heidi's grandmother.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

She had a penthouse in the city. She had mink, she had diamonds. I always wondered why my grandmother could have that stuff. My grandfather worked at Oscar Mayer Wiener, right? So it was like how did Papa like afford this lifestyle?

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Well it's because he couldn't. Someone else was paying for Heidi's grandmother's lavish living.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Somewhere in her 40s she got a wild hair and she was like the kept woman of a mobster named Polly Paul.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi actually heard this first from her grandfather.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

You don't ask questions, right? In my home in his 70s he got a UTI. And I don't know if you're familiar with like when elderly kind of get UTIs that get in their blood, it can make them have a psychosis and sometimes a little overly honest. And I remember him sitting me down. I was married, had my son. And he was like, if your husband ever says that you can have sex with another person, don't do it. It'll ruin your marriage. I was like, oh my God, like papa's about to spill the beans. He said that when he worked at Oscar Meyer Wiener. This is totally going towards his wiener. But I Guess he had like this chemical reaction and so he was unable to like have sex with my grandmother for a while. Like he was bloody and like his skin was peeling off. And I remember seeing that in his feet. Like he would have allergic reaction to cutting lawns and he like pour blood out of his bo. So he needed to work and he just kept working. And so he told my grandmother that, you know, he loved her enough that she could take a lover because she was beautiful and deserved that in her life. But I think it ruined their marriage permanently because she begrudged that he allowed it. I don't know.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The idea that Heidi's grandmother was the girlfriend of a mob boss could have just been sepsis induced fantasy on the part of her grandfather. But Heidi always had an investigative mind. She asked around. It seemed to be true.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

My mom's best friend's father saw my grandmother in Vegas with the mobsters, which also when they got divorced, my grandmother started threatening my dad that she was gonna get her mobster Paul or whatever to like whack him when her parents

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

got divorced, she means. And then there was this.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

My mother has always been very superficial and wanted things that were unrealistic, which is why she cons people to get em. But so she was calling my grandmother and she was just like so upset that she didn't have a Mustang and my dad had bought a station wagon because that's what they could afford. He was a plumber. And she didn't work, she wanted more. And she was like, my life is destitute. So my grandmother sent some furniture down. She had this blue couch and in the side drawer, what are they like the coffee table drawers? There was a picture of my grandmother butt ass naked on the couch, like posed out in her penthouse in Chicago. So my grandmother side story. Yes, with the mobsters.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The way Heidi's grandmother lived her life no doubt rubbed off on her daughter. Even if Kathy didn't know or want to admit the full story, she has

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

told me that she was aware of my grandmother having multiple fears. I think she had an affair with my mom's band teacher. Her childhood friend said my grandma would tan nude almost topless in the backyard and parade around my uncle's friends. And so pretty early on, she learned about how to use her body and sex for men and to get things. That was definitely something that she was very aware of growing up.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Nowadays, Heidi does think about her mom's own upbringing and struggles, but when she was young, all she really knew was that home was a difficult and unstable place. To be.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

My mom was a very abusive and unkind person, especially to me. Pretty much my being born ruined her whole life. So I think between mental illness, postpartum, there was an immediate disconnect. So when we were in Chicago, things were pretty, pretty hard. My grandmother started becoming very physically abusive too, which was part of her history, I guess she always picked one too. She used to beat my Uncle Dee with a baseball bat, according to family members and him. So I was just like the punching bag for both of them.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Also, being away from her dad was not surprisingly painful. Heidi missed him and I would sneak

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

and I would call my dad collect and I would talk to him often. And so I told my dad that I wanted to live with him. And he said, when you're 12, you can talk to a judge and you can, you know, come live with me. And being the rational dad that he was, he always thought maybe my mom would be better with him out. She had really convinced him that he was the reason that she was the way that she was.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This is heartbreaking to hear. Heidi's a child and can't understand, let alone describe the abuse she's caught in. Her dad is doing what he thinks is best for his daughter with the limited information he has.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He's like, when you come visit me, it's not going to be summer and Christmas and like, you'll have to go to school and you'll have to do like, it won't be just vacation and fun. I was like, yeah, that's fine. But then he reminded me that I would have to leave my sister behind because there's a four year age difference between us. And that was not an option because I didn't want the abuse that was happening to me then start to happen to my sister without, you know, I describe myself as like, you know, the red cloth that you drop in front of the bull. Like over here, Underleigh, get me. Not her kind of situation.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

So Sheldon sees his children occasionally on holidays a few times a year. But for Heidi's time in Chicago, her dad is mostly out of the picture. But Kathy has no shortage of other men coming in and out of her life and therefore Heidi's too. If you're wondering about Vince, Kathy's boyfriend who had helped the family escape to Chicago, well, he didn't become a permanent fixture, probably because he had some other commitments.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Vince, I think, winds up getting rearrested somewhere because he was in and out of prison. Like he escaped from jail.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Oh, and his name wasn't actually Vince either. It was Sammy.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He Was a convicted con artist, thief, you name it.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This hadn't been an issue for Kathy. It was more of a selling point.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

In fact, she loved the fact that he was like Houdini and escaped from jail and ran all these fantastic cons and got away.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Even though this guy Vince wasn't around much, he'd stayed in touch and he came to stay with the family when Heidi was 14.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He sat at our kitchen table with this old typewriter, and he was looking up obituaries to steal people's identity. And he was like, hey, I'm going to make you a fake birth certificate. Do you want to run away with me? Like, you don't have to stay here anymore.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Okay?

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

And I thought he was super creepy at that time as a 14 year old because he kept wanting me to score him coke and he was making sexual advances towards me.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Children don't see the same things as adults. And to Heidi, the idea of escape was massively appealing.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

So I was really on the fence because I also really did not want to stay with my mom and in the environment I was in. But I was like, hey, if I can score a fake birth certificate, I don't have to leave with him. I can leave with anybody else, right?

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

So she played along.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He's like, who do you want to be? And I was like, gina Marie Carlucci. Gina came from Empire records. I idolized mafia lifestyle, probably because my grandmother was also a madam for the mob. At one point, she had her minx and kept house in Chicago and ran her own cons.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Thankfully, Vince's days were numbered. Heidi thinks her grandfather saw him making advances.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

And so, like, there was a big blow up and he was kicked out of the house. And so I had hidden the birth certificate that he gave me. And then he gave me a pager as well. And my cousins ratted me out that he bought me a pager, so I had to give that over. But she didn't know about the birth certificate.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

It's hard to imagine what Heidi would have done exactly with that fake birth certificate at 14, but it did represent the idea and possibility of escape in her imagination. It's something she had been dreaming about for a long time. Two years before this, she'd made another attempt, Something which propelled Heidi for a brief time to the front pages of the national news.

[Kathy Marshall (Heidi's Mother)]

News.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

In a way, it was an attempt to escape that had the opposite effect. We'll find out what that's all about after the break.

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[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

At the beginning of 1994, Heidi Cloud was 12 years old. Her father was back in North Carolina and she didn't see him much. She was just getting by and doing her best to protect her little sister from her erratic mother and her problematic grandparents. If Heidi was that frog in the pot, the temperature was getting warmer and she was looking for a way out.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I got in trouble in gym and I was chewing bubble gum and I had to have a note signed, as

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

in a note from the school detailing her bad behavior, which her mom would have to sign.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I just knew it was going to be horrible and I really did not want to tell her. I was like, can I get anything? Like take away my recess for the rest of the school year? Just don't make me have my mom sign anything.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Kathy didn't like scrutiny. She didn't like criticism. She probably saw Heidi getting into trouble at school as a reflection on her. In short, Heidi knew her mom was going to react badly and I was

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

really panicked and I called my dad and I was Like, I'm going to run away. Like, I can't do this. And he was like, where would you live? And I was like, I'll live in the shed.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

For a terrified and resourceful fifth grader, this made perfect sense. Why not live in the shed out back? No one will check there.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He was like, how would you eat? I was like, when they're gone, I'll, like, sneak in the house and, like, I'll get food and water and they won't find me, and I can hide until I'm 12, and then I can go live with you.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Clearly, Sheldon didn't think his daughter was serious. So he did what I think any good parent would do in this situation. He calmed her down, rationalized without embarrassing her or dismissing her feelings.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He said, listen, Heidi, I'm not scared of your mom. So if you ever find yourself in trouble, throw me under the bus. I'm your daddy. I will protect you. Throw me right under the bus. I don't care.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This was a reassurance to Heidi, but she wasn't dissuaded, so she ran away anyway.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I was trying to get to my uncle's house, which was my mom's brother, who actually was on my dad's side. And I was like, maybe if I get to my Uncle Greg's house, he'll send me to my dad, or he'll protect me or he'll let me stay there because he knows who my mom really is.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The only problem is she got lost on the way.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I was with my friends, and I think they thought we were playing a game. The street lights came on, and they're like, all right, we gotta go home. Like, that was fun. And I was like, oh, yeah, home.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

As dark descended, Heidi realized the game was up, and she found herself back where she started on her block. This plan hadn't played out how she'd hoped.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

And I remember just, like, petrified. I was like, I can't go back, but I don't know where to go. And there was this house, and it had these really tall bushes, like, up north, those decorative bushes that people put designs in. They're like big hedges and stuff like that. And I was by their front porch. There was their window with the curtains. And I was like, I can live here in the bushes. There's light, and I'll just live in the bushes versus going home.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The revised plan also didn't last long.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

It was cold, it was dirty. And so I was like, I've got to go home.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Maybe she thought no one even noticed. She'd been away.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I lived in a house where they were either completely neglectful and nobody knew you existed or they were overly involved in an abusive type of way. So I'm like, maybe they don't know I'm there today, right? And I'll just sneak back in the house and pop out and act like I was playing like an amazing game of hide and seek and you know, like I fell asleep somewhere and I'm victorious. And these were the things that I told my little 12 year old 5th grade brain.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Unfortunately for Heidi, this isn't how things went down.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I show up and I see police there and I am like panicked.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

She thought she could get in without anyone noticing.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Our house had these brick indents, so it almost made like tiny little stairs. I was like, maybe I can get up and like throw myself back up on the roof. And I fell and I couldn't. And then next thing you know, there was a police officer and my mom standing there.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi was out of ideas and would now have to face the music.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I just remember being frozen and panicked. The police officers never talked to me away from my mom. So like she was sitting next to me the entire time. And so I didn't feel like I could share why I ran away or what was going on. And I was terrified that my mom was going to actually kill me this time, like this. There's no coming back. I have embarrassed her. The cops are here, I don't know what to do. And so they're like, why did you run away? I was like, my dad told me to do it.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

At that moment, she remembered what her dad had told her.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I did exactly what my dad said. I threw him under the bus. My mom gave me a big hug and she was just like, I knew it was him and like I was shuffled in the house. She talked to the officers and then she came in and my whole life changed.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

That night. Kathy kept Heidi up for hours talking. But what she was saying this time was new, darker, scarier and revealed how

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

my dad was a secret villain, a warlock in the occult and had been like drugging me and having me like gang raped in sheds for like these satanic rituals and just like the bizarre, crazy things she talked about. Like he would never have sex with me and I would prance around in heels and it's because he's really a homosexual and I had to like drug him to get pregnant with you and your sister. It was just crazy. And I haven't eaten, I've had no food, I've had no water. I'm terrified. I'm in a complete trauma response. And she's just like, dumping all this, like, crazy stuff that doesn't make sense to me.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi did her best to reason with her mom. None of this is true. Mom, dad didn't do any of these things to me.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I just kept protesting what she was saying until I stopped protesting it because somewhere in my brain. Sorry, I was like, my mom doesn't hate me. Like, my dad is a secret villain and I'm daddy's girl, and this whole time she's been trying to protect me and that's why she sleeps all the time. Or she's angry and she's trying to do all this to protect me. And I run to my dad who's like this secret villain who's like abusing me and trying to kill her and all this stuff. And, like, I just gripped onto a reality that I had been fighting because it wasn't my memories. And she would validate that. The reason I couldn't remember is because I was drugged, right? My dad was drugging me and using the Art of War and Chinese sleep deprivation and all this crazy stuff. And I was just like, the only thing I could cling onto was, my mom doesn't hate me. You know, this is why she behaved the way she did.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

After this, Kathy no longer let Heidi and Rachel see their dad at all. All visitation was canceled, even though they had an agreement. And so the parents inevitably ended up back in family court. The contentious court battle featured psychiatrists and other experts who had to try and deal with the very difficult task of working out the truth and deciding what was best for the kids.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

We had two court psychiatrists, one quack, a doodle that she had taken me to right after I had run away.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Kathy prepped 12 year old Heidi and Rachel, who was now seven, for their interrogation, and she hired her own psychologist to help present her case to the court. Between April 1994 and February 1995, the psychologist met with Heidi nine times. The psychologist reported a series of worrying things to the court, including that during his parenting time, Sheldon woke Heidi up every night telling her it was father daughter time. And also that he had given Heidi a gun for Christmas and forced her to shoot a bird.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

You know, we weren't allowed to talk about witches and warlocks in the occult. We weren't allowed to talk about the Masons. We weren't allowed to talk about being drugged and, you know, gang raped. You know, she told us what was palatable for the court system and that nobody would realize that it was her.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

But the judge ultimately did see through Kathie's games, or at least he saw that something was off. He decided that the reports from the psychologist Kathie had hired were nonsensical and less than credible. According to Sheldon, Heidi stayed up late because she wanted to, and it was her idea to shoot the bird when she went hunting. And the judge also noted that before this year, the kids had no problems going to see their dad. Also, why would Heidi have tried to run away to see her dad if these terrible things had been really happening to her? Ultimately, the judge saw no good reason the children shouldn't continue to see their father.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Like, he saw that there was a lot of maternal manipulation, that there wasn't, like, a lot of validation.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

And then both girls refused to go to their fathers for the upcoming summer visit. In court, Heidi told the judge she would pitch a fit if forced to go to North Carolina. Rachel told him, I think you must have a very sick sense of humor, and you've just made the biggest mistake of your life. Strong and unlikely words for a 7 and 12 year old. The judge was now in a difficult position. He could see that Kathy, the mother, was unstable. But what was he supposed to do if the children simply wouldn't go and see their dad? The decision he made was to put them into foster care.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He thought, if I could get them away from their mother, then they'll go see their dad. Like, I've got to break this maternal, like, manipulation and things that are going on.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The judge also ruled that the children could have no contact with Kathy during this time. But this didn't happen. The adults who were looking after them caved straight away, immediately.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Yes, you can call your mom. We're on the phone with my mom. We're talking to my mom. There was a big protest in front of the court of, like, to have us released. And the foster family drove us to the courthouse and, like, rolled down the window. My mom's out there with, like, her sign to free us, which only, like, made her more of a victim and my dad more evil in her narrative and on our reality at that time.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The next day, Kathy filed an emergency ruling with the court, and the children were returned to her care. But she was threatened with contempt of court if she couldn't make them go see their dad.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

And so my mom stood there in front of the judge and says, oh, you, Honor, like, they won't listen to me. They won't go.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

In other words, she was shifting the lens of blame away from herself. And towards her own children.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

And he goes, okay, cool. Well, I'm gonna hold your daughters in contempt. And your eldest one, that's 12, I'm gonna put her in jail. When you come back, I'm going to put your eldest one in jail. So make them go, or she's going to jail.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The court adjourned to reconvene. The morning of July 24, 1995.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I woke up, and I looked at my mom, and I was like, am I going to jail today? And she was like, no. I was like, I don't want to go to jail. I'm not going to jail. Like, I. I haven't done anything wrong. She was like, no, you're a child that. Exactly. You haven't done anything wrong. This is our last day going to court. We're going to go to court. You're going to stand up there, you and your sister, and when he says, do you want to visit your father? You're going to say no. And then we're going to go home, and then it's all going to be over. All you have to do is say no. So I put on my little navy blue dress. We went to court. She continued to give us the same pep talk. Everything's fine. Let's go have Taco Bell after. We're planning, like, how life's going to be great. We're just going to go in there and say no, and life's going to be great.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi and her sister found themselves in open court, standing in front of the

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

judge, and he asked my sister, like, will you go see your dad? And she said, no. And he goes, well, you're not old enough to put in jail, so I'm gonna put you under house arrest. You can't go outside to play with your friends. You can't talk on the phone. You can't watch television. You're grounded until I say you're ungrounded, until you decide to go see your dad. And if you break any of these rules, I'm gonna put your mom in jail.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This isn't what Heidi's mom had told her would happen.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

And I'm. I'm mad, and I'm confused, and I already have RBF at a very young age, right? Like, I just. It's just how my face looks. So I stand in front of the judge. He calls me up, and he says, will you go visit your father? And I said, no. And he said, you were the most rebellious, defiant young lady to ever enter my courtroom. I hereby sentence you indefinitely to juvenile detention. Facility slammed his gavel. Sid, take her out the back. I like walk out the back. I like glance over, I see my sister just like hysterically crying. And they shackled my feet and my hands and put me in a GV van and shipped me off to Joliet Prison, which was actually the juvenile wing was attached to an adult prison facility where at once John Wayne Gacy was. That's where my little 12 year old self was shipped to.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

This was the first recorded time that an American child had been held in contempt of court for defying a custody order. The first and only time in history.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I was sentenced indefinitely until I obeyed the judge. I am in there for life. This is what I was told.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

The shocking decision propelled the story into the national news agenda.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

The nation was in uproar.

[News Reporter]

I only want Mommy. Unbelievable. The judge threw the young girl in jail.

[Kathy Marshall (Heidi's Mother)]

This Judge ordered this 12 year old child shackled in jail for refusing to visit her father after a bitter divorce.

[News Reporter]

The innocent pursuits of Heidi Nussbaum and her younger sister Rachel have been swept aside by the harsh, undiscriminating hand of justice in the cold reality of imprisonment.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

On appeal, the judgment was stayed, meaning not enforced for the time being. The children were back with Kathy after

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

a day, which I was grateful because it was right before shower time. So it was like having like a panic attack in my cell at that moment. But I was also game to like do this for life.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Most people celebrated Kathy's determination to fight for her children. A mother protecting her kids from a dangerous father against the excessive brutality of the family court system.

[News Reporter]

Is it just for just outrageous when the judge says send them to jail?

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Kathy talked to the media and was very forthright in fanning the flames.

[Kathy Marshall (Heidi's Mother)]

Their complaints were, mom, I, you know, I don't want to go. I had trouble getting him to go. I put out my hands, I couldn't even speak. And I walked up to the bench and I just did this.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Kathy here holds her hands as if shackled to the camera.

[Kathy Marshall (Heidi's Mother)]

In essence, please take me, don't take my child. I was staggered.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

She railed against the barbarism of this judge sending her daughter to jail.

[Kathy Marshall (Heidi's Mother)]

Made a lot of references to the sounds that she heard. She said the slamming of the doors, the a lot of noise and you could hear voices, she said through the

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

vents and warned of the danger of forcing them to stay with their dad.

[Kathy Marshall (Heidi's Mother)]

Very bizarre abuse. They're only pawns because the judge decided to believe there was no abuse.

[News Reporter]

Kathy says it was fear, not defiance, that compelled her daughter to choose jail over her father and principle, not pride. That's forcing her to continue a fight against laws that seek compliance of kids through the threat of jail.

[Kathy Marshall (Heidi's Mother)]

This is no longer about, you know, two little girls. It's about our children, our future, and a standard that's being set.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

She became everybody's, like, heroic mother fighting for children's rights and these poor children, which is true. Like, that should have never happened, but she got to capitalize on it, and she still capitalizes on it because it's a Google search. It's case law.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Kathy had fully made the most of this terrible situation to push her own agenda.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

Once we were headlines, I think that's when things got big. That's when things shifted from always wanting money and kind of playing the road that my grandmother played of, like, good looks and big boobs and, you know, like, let me land a sugar daddy, to having other people take care of her. Because here she's this victim mother. People were constantly giving her money.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Heidi is still in touch with the lawyer her mom hired back then.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

He has my picture in his office, and he described the first time he ever saw me just like this little girl balled up in the chair.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

To him, Heidi was presenting clear signs of trauma.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I had every sign of an abused, traumatized child, because I was. So he did a lot of the work just for free. Right. He just wanted to help us.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Of course, Heidi was a victim here, but not of her dad, of her mom. And Kathy had managed to turn the attention onto her, not as the perpetrator, but as the victim. And she was going to capitalize on this as she had done throughout Heidi's life.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

She has other people take care of her. My grandparents took care of her. She would date men to take care of her.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

In a way, Heidi was taking care of her, too. She knew somewhere deep down that none of what her mom was saying was true, but she was shielded from it.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I wasn't allowed to read the newspapers, which I actually just did for the first time this summer, because I found them on archived them all on Ancestry. And then I realized that some of them actually did some good journalist and investigations and talked to my dad. There was one article that I read in particular, and I just, like, over the summer, like, I just cried so hard. I mean, down to, like, she got in trouble for chewing bubble gum, And it's not her fault. And you've made this so big, like, she can't come back from it. And I think that would have been huge to read. Like, although I believed her I fought against it. Like, I was just like, that's not true. Like, my dad didn't do that. And I don't know, but I think I would have read it and been like, am I making the right decision? I need to trust my, like, eyes and memory. And, like, this person's crazy and abusive. I don't know. Like, I feel like it could have paved a way back to my dad.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Because after this, Heidi doesn't see her dad at all until she's 20. They were apart for nearly a decade, more than a quarter of her life to that point.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

You would think that life got normal when he left, but things were just heating up. Things were just getting super wild at that point.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Actually, I'm wrong. They did speak one time I called

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

him when my sister was turning 16 and I cussed him out. So I was like, she's turning 16. You need to send her money for a car and go fuck yourself. I'd get off the phone and I'd cry, and I'd just be like, I mean, he's so good. He's just seems like a great guy. He's like the dad that I always remember, but he's a secret villain, you know, he actually wants to hurt us. And my logical brain just couldn't make it make sense.

[Josh Dean (Host/Narrator)]

Next week, tune into Chameleon to hear the second and final part of Heidi's story where she's dragged further into Kathy's world before breaking free. Then Kathy disappears and Heidi is pulled into the search to find her mom. Mom who's left behind a string of destroyed lives strewn across north and Central America. How did Heidi make sense of this? And where has her mom gone? Chameleon is a production of Campside Media and Audio Chuck. It's hosted by me, Josh Dean, and was written by me and Joe Barrett. It was produced by Joe Barrett. Our associate producer is Emma Simonoff. Sound design and mix by Tiffany Dimmack. Theme by Ewin lytramuin and Mark McAdam. Our production manager is Ashley Warren. Campside's executive producers are Vanessa Gregoriadas, Matt Sher, and me, Josh Dean. And finally, if I can ask a few favors before sending you on your way today, please rate, follow and review Chameleon on your favorite podcast platforms to help spread the word. I know everyone says this, but it's true. Ratings and reviews really do help. And if you have any feedback, tips or story ideas, you can email [e-mail] or leave us a message at a special number we've set up 2017-4383. Add a plus one if you're outside North America. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

[Heidi Cloud (Main Subject)]

I think Chuck would approve.