Foreigners Everywhere: Adriano Pedrosa and Yana Peel

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Foreigners Everywhere: Adriano Pedrosa and Yana Peel"

Release Date: August 27, 2024
Podcast: CHANEL Connects
Host: Yana Peel
Guest: Adriano Pedrosa, Artistic Director of the São Paulo Museum of Art and Curator of the 60th Venice Biennale

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of CHANEL Connects, host Yana Peel engages in a profound conversation with Adriano Pedrosa, the esteemed artistic director of the São Paulo Museum of Art and the curator behind the 60th Venice Biennale. The episode delves deep into Pedrosa's visionary approach to curating one of the world's most prestigious art exhibitions, exploring themes of foreignness, inclusivity, and the representation of underrepresented artists from the Global South.

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The Essence of the 60th Venice Biennale

Yana Peel opens the dialogue by highlighting the significance of the Venice Biennale as a global art event. She sets the stage by referencing Gabrielle Chanel’s villa, La Pausa, tying the artistic legacy of the past to the current conversations within the Biennale.

Adriano Pedrosa responds with enthusiasm, emphasizing the enormous privilege of inviting a diverse array of artists to the Biennale. He states:

"It's such a unique experience, an enormous privilege, really, to be able to invite so many artists and to bring so many artworks to what is arguably the most important visible part for contemporary art and art in general in terms of exhibitions."
[02:13]

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Theme: "Stranieri Ovunque" (Foreigners Everywhere)

Pedrosa unveils the theme of the exhibition, "Stranieri Ovunque," inspired by the works of Claire Fontaine. He elaborates on the duality of the theme—external foreignness and internal feelings of being an outsider:

"The expression 'foreigners everywhere' has a poetic message that wherever one goes, one is always surrounded by foreigners. But on the other hand, one is always somehow a foreigner deep down inside."
[03:12]

This theme is dissected into four core subjects:

1. Queer Artist
2. Outsider Artist
3. Foreigner
4. Indigenous Artist

These categories form the Nucleo Contemporaneo, a contemporary nucleus aimed at redefining the narrative within the Biennale. Additionally, Pedrosa introduces the Nucleo Storico, a historical section that juxtaposes past and present artistic movements.

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Representation and Inclusion

Pedrosa underscores the unprecedented diversity of the exhibition, featuring over 80 artists from various countries. He highlights his mission to elevate visibility for artists from the Global South, including both contemporary and 20th-century figures who have not previously been showcased at the Biennale. Reflecting on the historical exclusivity of the event, he remarks:

"In the last couple of decades, the Biennale has always been organized by Europeans and North Americans. They are often including contemporary artists from Latin America, from Africa, from the Middle East, from Asia. That does not happen so much to the 20th century."
[08:21]

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Spotlight on Notable Artists

Pedrosa discusses the inclusion of significant historical artists who are now represented posthumously, aimed at providing them with the recognition they deserve. Among these, he highlights:

• Amrita Sher-Gil (India) – "presented for the first time."
  [05:21]

• Frida Kahlo – Celebrated for her enduring influence, also included for the first time.
  [05:21]

• Taksila do Marao – "first time participating."
  [05:21]

These inclusions mark a significant shift towards inclusive historical representation, challenging the traditional Eurocentric focus of the Biennale.

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Awards: Golden and Silver Lions

Pedrosa shares insights into the selection of Golden Lions for Lifetime Achievement, honoring artists who embody the exhibition's themes:

1. Niu Yauther – Egyptian-born, Turkish artist based in Paris since the 1960s. Her work explores feminism, migration, and East-West relationships.
   [14:23]

2. Ana Maria Maiolino – Italian-born artist residing in Brazil, known for her work in sculpture, painting, drawing, video, and installation.
   [14:23]

These awards celebrate artists who have significantly contributed to the discourse on foreignness and cultural hybridity.

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Collaborative Efforts and Future Endeavors

Yana Peel and Adriano Pedrosa discuss the collaborative nature of the Biennale, emphasizing the continuous discovery of artists and the privilege of working closely with both historical and emerging talents. Pedrosa mentions ongoing projects and future exhibitions, reflecting his commitment to expanding the institution's reach and influence:

"Next year, in March, we are opening an additional building... in December, I'm co-curating the full sort of international group show devoted to queer histories."
[18:00]

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Personal Reflections and Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with lighter, personal anecdotes as Pedrosa shares his fondest memories of Venice, including favorite restaurants and personal experiences at past Biennales. He humorously suggests using his name to secure reservations at his preferred restaurant, Nevodi:

"Maybe try that. Maybe try that."
[21:37]

Yana Peel wraps up the conversation by congratulating Pedrosa on his extraordinary curation and expressing gratitude for his contributions to art and culture.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Adriano Pedrosa on the uniqueness of curating the Biennale:
  "It's such a unique experience, an enormous privilege, really, to be able to invite so many artists and to bring so many artworks to what is arguably the most important visible part for contemporary art and art in general in terms of exhibitions."
  [02:13]

• Pedrosa on the poetic message of "foreigners everywhere":
  "The expression 'foreigners everywhere' has a poetic message that wherever one goes, one is always surrounded by foreigners. But on the other hand, one is always somehow a foreigner deep down inside."
  [03:12]

• On including historical artists from the Global South:
  "That's why I thought it was quite relevant to try to bring so many of these pioneers, iconic figures in their own contexts, right from the global south to the Biennale."
  [08:21]

• Pedrosa reflecting on artist discovery:
  "The surprises are always the artists and the works that you discover and that you encounter."
  [13:00]

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Conclusion

This episode of CHANEL Connects offers a comprehensive look into Adriano Pedrosa's groundbreaking work in curating the 60th Venice Biennale. Through his efforts, Pedrosa not only broadens the representation of artists from diverse backgrounds but also redefines the themes of foreignness and identity in contemporary art. His vision fosters a more inclusive and dynamic art world, bridging historical legacies with present-day innovations.

Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for the intricate processes behind major art exhibitions and the pivotal role of curators in shaping cultural narratives.

Transcript

[Jana Peel]

Welcome to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. It's important to be free.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

So who was the fool who didn't recognize it all that time ago?

[Jana Peel]

I think it is seduction. Oh, absolutely. Just another woman trying to survive. So who of them is lying? I wish that were the case. Well, let's face the terror of the new work, then. And this is what art is so good at.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

I don't.

[Jana Peel]

Do you prepare? No, no, no. In this season of Chanel Connects, we've taken up residence in Italy to take you to the center of the art world. Listen in to the artists, curators and thinkers behind the Venice Biennale, the world's most important exhibition of contemporary art. Each of our guests is focused on what matters most and what happens next. I'm Jana Peel, global head of Arts and Culture at Chanel. Thank you for connecting with us.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Could you tell where my head was.

[Jana Peel]

At when you found me?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Me and you went to hell and back just to find peace.

[Jana Peel]

Mary Shelley once said, there is something so different in Venice from any other place in the world that you leave everyday sights to enter an enchanted garden. In our final foray into that enchanted garden, I'm joined by Adriano Pedrosa, the artistic director of the Sao Paulo Museum of Art and the curator of the 60th Venice Biennale. Born in Rio de Janeiro, Pedrosa first studied law before moving to Los Angeles to pursue studies at the California Institute of the arts. In 2011, he co curated the 12th Istanbul Biennale with Jens Hoffman, and it was this exhibition that put him on the international map. Over a decade on, he's appointed the director of the world's largest art exhibition. In his words, it is the exhibition that reinforces what truly matters. Hello, Adriano. It is a pleasure to see you. Thank you for joining us on Chanel Connects.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Thank you. Thanks so much. Wonderful opportunity to be here.

[Jana Peel]

Last time I saw you was at the opening. How was that experience curating the 60th Venice Biennale, for which you selected such a provocative theme?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

It has been a really wonderful experience. It's such a unique experience, such an enormous privilege, really, to be able to invite so many artists and to bring so many artworks to what is arguably the most important visible part for contemporary art and art in general in terms of exhibitions.

[Jana Peel]

Now, you have referenced this art world Olympics, as it were, as the exhibition that really reaffirms what matters. And alongside that ambition, you took it even a step further to showcase a record number of artists from the most extraordinary number of countries. 80, if not more. Can you give us a sense of the theme of the exhibition and what Stranyeria Vunque meant to you.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

It is actually coming from a series of works that Claire Fontaine have been making since 2005. Claire Fontaine is a collective Irish man and an Italian woman now living in Palermo. They have been making these neon sculptures, these neon works where one reads in many different languages the expression strangieri ovuncui, foreigners everywhere. Strenierio vuncui, in turn comes from the name of a political activist collective based in Torino in Italy, that in the beginning of the 2000s, were fighting racism and xenophobia in Italy. So at the heart there is this message. On the other hand, the expression foreigners everywhere has a poetic message that wherever one goes, one is always surrounded by foreigners. But on the other hand, one is always somehow a foreigner deep down inside. So that is the starting point of the exhibition and then developed into these four subjects for the nucleo contemporaneous, the queer artist, the outsider artist, the foreigner, and the indigenous artist. And so these are the four subject of interests I defined in order to put together the nucleo contemporaneo, the contemporary nucleus of the exhibition. But I also decided to put together a nucle historico of the exhibition, a more historical section.

[Jana Peel]

It's so beautiful. The politics and the poetry have never felt more pertinent than in a year where 2 billion people go to the elections. Adriana, I have to ask a quick question on behalf of a friend. Just before coming here, I had a curator from the National Portrait Gallery, and I said, I'm going to see Adriana Pedrosa to ask him some questions. She said, please ask him in the portrait if there's any particular portrait that he could single out as meaningful to him.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Very difficult to do that. I mean, over 100 artists there. I would say that. I would say there are some wonderful sort of women, modernists that are presented. I would say three of them I could single out instantly. Amrita Sherghill from India and Frida Kahlo, of course, being presented for the first time. It's quite extraordinary that she had never participated. And Taksila do Marao, who had also participated. But it's the first time that she's. And Amrita Shergil as well is the first time they are presented alongside so many other artists.

[Jana Peel]

It's wonderful. I remember walking through that exhibition with our friends and with Mark Godfrey, and he looked very tired that morning, and he said he'd spent most of the night researching all of these extraordinary artists and the incredible publication that also accompanies the bienn. So, Adriano, it feels like a surprise call and nomination, but perhaps a project that you'd spent over a decade, in a sense, preparing for. Is it fair to say that there's an incredible opportunity and responsibility that comes with being the first ever Latin American to curate the Venice biennale since its 1895 inception?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

That, of course, it's a great honor, but of course, also a great responsibility to be appointed, you know, curator of the Biennale. Indeed, I'm the first curator from Latin America and only the second curator in the global south after the great Okwuiyanwezer, the Nigerian curator that organized the 2015 exhibition. I actually saw this project really as kind of a mission to give visibility to, you know, as many artists that I thought were relevant, particularly from the global South. Not just contemporary artists, but 20th century artists as well. And that's why I was really focusing on artists that had not had the opportunity to exhibit in the Biennale. The Biennale does present the most extraordinary opportunity of visibility, and it can really be a turning point. I think it often is, really. It's often a turning point for the artist's career or for the perception and understanding or the reception of an artist's work, because many artists in the exhibition, particularly in the Nucleus Storico, are no longer alive.

[Jana Peel]

Can you give us an idea, Adriano? Just because that's such a seemingly important part in terms of proportion of living artists versus those that have passed among the 300 or so of the artists and the collectives, that was quite an extraordinary evolution from the past. How did you choose to showcase so many artists who were no longer there? And did that cause a frisson with the commercial art world?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

So there is a very specific reason for my introducing so many historical artists. I would say that in the last couple of decades, the Biennale, even Since the late 90s, the biennale has always been organized by Europeans and North Americans. They are often including contemporary artists from Latin America, from Africa, from the Middle east, from Asia. That does not happen so much to the 20th century. So that's why I thought it was quite relevant to try to bring so many of these pioneers, iconic figures in their own contexts, right from the global south to the Biennale. Of course, I often say that I would have needed five years to put together an exhibition such as that one. So what I'm offering really is an essay. It's a draft. It's a provocation in that respect.

[Jana Peel]

So many provocations there. As I think about the native and the foreigner, the living and the dead, and this idea in terms of popular art, craft and high art. I'd love to delve into that distinction between popular art and outsider art and what that insider, outsider element meant in terms of really understanding your mission.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

The outsider artist is related to what we in Brazil and Latin America call the archista popular. It's not quite the same, but there is a relationship there. The archista popular is the artist's operating again outside traditional circuits of modern and contemporary art. They're self taught artists coming from very different backgrounds, often rural backgrounds or underprivileged backgrounds as well. And this is a tradition that is very strong in Brazil, also strong in Latin America. You also find it even in the us the notion of folk artists, for example. But not so much in Europe, not so much in Europe. Whereas here in Brazil, we feel it's quite important that the narrative of art and culture that we are presenting attempts to reflect the larger culture itself. So I know it's very strange for a European, for example, to look at that work and maybe they think it's too exotic or, you know, or too outsider. But this is something that we feel is quite part of a culture and part of the culture, you know, at large.

[Jana Peel]

That's a really interesting aspect. The experience of a visitor to the Biennale, whether they come from Sao Paulo or whether they come from San Francisco. Art for all has been so instrumental to your work. And that universality of the cultural experience is something we've had the pleasure of working on together with you at MassPE. Can we turn to your influences for putting together such an extraordinary convening of a lifetime of learning and meeting and collaborating? So many incredible curators have undertaken the role of artistic director before you. One thinks of cecilia Alemani in 2022, Christine Macel in 2017. And I'm thinking, if you could go back to any past Biennale, which one would you personally choose?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

I think Cecilia Le Mani is really. She did an extraordinary Biennale. She also. She had an interest in the museological. She had an interest in the historical as well. She also had a number of sections devoted to historical authors. She, of course, had one extra year of the pandemic. We usually have a year and a half. And she had two years and a half. And you can really see in the exhibition, I think it's an extraordinary work. What she did. I would say, for me, this is in my memory the best Biennale I have really ever seen. And she was really, I mean, I was advancing a lot the, you know, the artists from the global south and the indigenous artists and the outsider artists. And the queer artists, the foreigner. But she was advancing women artists. Right. So she had, you know, almost all of the artists, I believe more than 90% of the artists were female artists. So that's really quite a wonderful achievement.

[Jana Peel]

What was most surprising for you, you were such a native, you had seen so much, you had known so much, you had learned so much. And yet I'm aspects of this curation that were surprising.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Well, the surprises are always the artists and the works that you discover and that you encounter. And you know, it's really such a privilege to, you know, I can only say it's the artists really. Both some historical artists I knew. Many of you know the vast majority of the artists in the Nuklustorico already I had those works in mind. There are a number of them I did discovered throughout the research, particularly also working with Sofia Gorce, who is the artistic organizer that helped me within that particular section. But in the Nucleo Contemporaneo, only a couple of artists I had worked with beforehand, of course, several I knew, but most of them I did not know and had not worked with them. And working with Amanda Carneiro, who's the artistic organizer helping me mostly through the Nucleo Contemporaneo, it's always a privilege. That's why we do this, because we want to work with artists, we want to work with their own works as well. And we want to make this possible. And it's just so wonderful to see the engagement and it's really an enormous privilege.

[Jana Peel]

Yes. And I would love to ask you about your lifetime achievement, gold and silver lions. So maybe you can highlight for us the two extraordinary women that were showcased for their work.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Oh yes, yes. There are several golden lions and silver lions. And I myself, as artistic director, I can suggest one golden lion, sometimes two golden lions for lifetime achievement. And the two artists that I decided and was approved by the board, of course, are two immigrant artists as well. One is Niu Yauther, Egyptian born artist, she's Turkish, but she's Egyptian born. And she's been living in Paris since the 60s doing extraordinary work related to feminism and to migration and to, let's say east west relationships as well, the so called Orient and the Occident. And the other woman is Italian born artist, born in Italy, moved to Venezuela and has been living in Brazil since the 60s. Ana Maria Maiolino. And she works primarily with sculpture, but also with painting and drawing and video and installation. So these are the two artists that I think are very emblematic, of course, very Strong, powerful artists, the two of them participating in the Biennale for the first time. I think they speak in different ways to the notion of strenieri, of foreigners everywhere. So I was very happy to be able to give the golden lion for these two artists.

[Jana Peel]

Yeah, that was amazing. Anna Maria Maiolino and Neil Yalter, of course, as the recipients of the two golden lions for lifetime achievement. Adriano, can we talk for a minute of Dalton Paula? We were so fortunate on your recommendation to bring Dalton Paula into our next prize winner family. And it was wonderful to be with him in Venice and, and to see what it meant for an artist to be included in an exhibition of this monumental scale.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Yes. Dalton Paulo, this is one of the very few artists that I had worked with beforehand. I have been working with him since 201314 when he made some work for an exhibition called Mestizo Histories that I co curated with Lilia Schwartz. We commissioned two portraits of his and that's when he started these wonderful series of portraits of very important figures and characters in black Brazilian history who, although their narrative and their biographies might be well known, but they're not as well known as they should be. And often they don't have a face. Right? They don't have a visual representation. I started this conversation with him about doing full length portraits and he says, yes, I think something interesting. I'll do it at some point, I'll do it at some point. And finally, when the Biennale came, I said, wow, that's the wonderful opportunity for you, for us to present this work. And he accepted the invitation and it was wonderful to be able to present those portraits and the Biennale.

[Jana Peel]

It's a beautiful contribution and meaningful contribution and of course, an incredible manifestation of your desire to use the platform to give visibility to topics and themes to the Latin Americans, the foreigners, the indigenous, the queer, the outsider artists. I have several final questions for you. And on a personal note, I mean, you've been at the mospi, changing the face of the institution in every possible way. Programming, staffing, ethos, even a new building. What is next for you personally and for maspi? What is left to do?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Well, personally and professionally, I think we are now in the middle of a very ambitious year. As you know, we organize our years according to different histories that set different themes and frameworks. For our exhibition program. We've done indigenous histories, in fact, many of them reflect some of the themes of interest of these subjects of the nucleo contemporaneo. And this year, I think it's a very ambitious, challenging year. It's a full year devoted to queer history, so a full year devoted to queer artists in the exhibition program. Of course. Next year, in March, we are opening an additional building. I myself just opened an exhibition I co curated of Cathy Opie, the American Photographer. Last week I'm opening another exhibition devoted to Leo Nilsson, a late Brazilian artist, at the end of August. And in December, I'm co curating the full sort of international group show devoted to queer histories. That's also very exciting in December, co curated with Julia Bryan Wilson, our curator at large. So looking forward to these.

[Jana Peel]

I really salute you. It has been so special having this precious time with you. And again, congratulations on your extraordinary Biennale. Stranieri Avunque. Foreigners everywhere, but also friends everywhere. And your work with your collaborators has been an amazing testament to that.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Thank you so much. Thanks for the opportunity and for the support. I really appreciate it.

[Jana Peel]

Thank you. To Adriano Pedrosa. As we come to the end of the season and we have some time to reflect, we asked Adriano Pedrosa some of our favorite questions as posed to this year's Biennale guests. Do you remember the first time you came to Venice?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Yes, it's 1990. Can you believe it? I was very, very young.

[Jana Peel]

Child. A child.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Practice. Yes, yes, I have that catalog still in my library.

[Jana Peel]

What is your favorite thing about Venice?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

The Biennale, I must say. I mean, the walking culture is just wonderful.

[Jana Peel]

What are your walking shoes of choice? Do you know how many kilometers you have clocked?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Yes.

[Jana Peel]

What does the Survival Guide of Venice tell us, Adriano?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

I mean, it's. I got to 10, 12 kilometers a day. It was wonderful. I really missed that. And I had to buy some L.L. bean boots because it's also very wet during that period.

[Jana Peel]

Adriano, you have a chisel, a hammer, and immunity from arrest. You can have one thing from Venice to keep at home. What would you take and why?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Oh, the catalog. No, I'll just bring the catalog and the images. This is enough, you know, These are the memories.

[Jana Peel]

Fantastic. Now I will turn to AI if an AI could continue the work of a dead artist, who would you choose for artificial intelligence to extend that work? And why?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Pass.

[Jana Peel]

Pass.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

I totally pass that. I wouldn't do that. I don't think I would do that.

[Jana Peel]

What is your favorite taste, smell or sound of Venice?

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Well, the favorite restaurant is the wonderful Nevodi. Nevodi is the best restaurant. We would go to it. It's very close to the Arsenale. I strongly suggest, and I also recommend booking in advance because it does get quite busy. That's my favorite there.

[Jana Peel]

And if you can't get a reservation, just say you're a friend of Adriano Pedrosa's and everything should be fine.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Maybe try that. Maybe try that.

[Jana Peel]

Fantastic. Thank you for listening to Chanel Connects, the Venice Biennale edition. Now, the number five is very important to the house of Chanel, so please consider giving us five stars on whatever platform you're listening to us on. This is the final episode in this fourth season of Chanel Connects. A special thank you to all of you who've listened year after year as we've brought together some of the most exciting voices in art and culture. These conversations have led to some powerful connections. We've had friendships blossom and new collaborations emerge. It's been great to have you with us along the way. Until next time, stay connected.

[Adriano Pedrosa]

Sam.