← Change Your Brain Every Day
Change Your Brain Every Day
Elizabeth Smart on Surviving Kidnapping & Painful Memories, Plus Healing & Posttraumatic Growth
01:26:43
Elizabeth Smart shares her powerful journey after being kidnapped at age 14 in 2002, revealing how she turned unimaginable adversity into hope and posttraumatic growth. Join Dr. Amen and Elizabeth as they review her brain scans and discuss the...
Loading summary
Transcript192 lines
- [00:00]
Elizabeth Smart
I asked him if he was going to rape and kill me, could he do it, like, close to my home? Just because I wanted my parents to know what had happened to me. And I had heard on the news of reports of mountain lion attacks and there were coyotes up behind my house as well. And so, I mean, I wanted my body to be in one piece. And I remember saying, if you're going to rape and kill me, could you do it here? And when I said that to him, he looked at me and smiled like, I'm not going to rape and kill you. Yet.
- [00:34]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Every day you are making your.
- [00:36]
Podcast Announcer
Brain better or you are making it worse. Stay with us to learn how you can change your brain for the better every day.
- [00:47]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I'm really thrilled to have Elizabeth Smart on our podcast. You might remember that when she was 14 years old, she was kidnapped and then literally raped every day for nine months. And then she was found and rescued and has just gone on quite the journey. And one might think she would have post traumatic stress disorder. But what we're really going to talk about today is post traumatic growth. We're going to look at her brain and talk about the amazing journey and work that she does. Now.
- [01:32]
Podcast Announcer
Are you struggling with anxiety, depression, obsessive thinking, past emotional trauma, ADHD or brain fog and don't know where to turn? Are your relationships a mess and you don't know why? Have you had a brain injury, concussion, or just don't feel the same after Covid? Is your memory worse than it was 10 years ago? Or do you have a parent or grandparent with dementia and want to work on prevention? Yes, prevention is possible, but the sooner you start, the better. For 35 years, we've been changing people's brains and their lives using brain spec'd imaging and a personalized natural approach to brain and mental health care. And we have some of the best published outcomes anywhere. Go to amenclinics.com to learn more. And when you call us, mention podcast 10 for a 10% discount.
- [02:39]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Thank you so much for doing this. I've been looking forward to it, and as I got to read your history, I'm looking forward to it even more.
- [02:48]
Elizabeth Smart
Well, thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.
- [02:50]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I watched your documentary, I've looked at your scan and I've looked at your testing and I'm sort of blown away that you're as healthy as you are. So many people think that if someone goes through a severe trauma, and you and I would agree that was a severe trauma, that it would wreck them. But it didn't wreck you. Why?
- [03:18]
Elizabeth Smart
I don't know. It just. I mean, like, it was hard and it was terrible and like, it was the worst nine months of my life. But I don't know, I felt like I. Like once I was rescued, I didn't want to lose the rest of my life to what had happened the last nine months. I felt like I'd been given a chance at life back and I didn't want to miss out. I wanted to experience life. I. Like, I remember specifically having the thought after I was rescued that if I died today, what would people say at my funeral, how tragic it was that I was kidnapped and I made it all the way through my kidnapping only to die. Like, I felt like my kidnapping would play kind of center stage at my funeral. And I remember thinking, geez, when I die, like, I hope people laugh. Like, I hope. Like there's so much more to share than just. Just my kidnapping. And so I guess for me, I've always just wanted to keep living life.
- [04:30]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I love that so much. You know, one of the myths about PTSD or post traumatic stress disorder is everybody that goes through a trauma develops it. And it seems like that's not true that a percentage of people do. Absolutely. But a percentage of people develop post traumatic growth. And I actually want to spend a fair amount of time today talking about that. There does become certain decisions that you make that either increase the likelihood of long term trauma or decreases the likelihood of trauma. So I want to talk about those. Your goal is you're interested in your brain and in trauma, which is why you decided to do, do this with us. I looked at your history. You were kidnapped when you were 14. Right? Before 14, what was your life like?
- [05:40]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, I think it was pretty idyllic. I come from a pretty large family. I was second of six kids. I mean, I would say we were pretty close knit. Like, we weren't perfect. I mean, like, I didn't want to share a room with my sister, but I had to. Like, I didn't want to necessarily, like, I don't know, do chores around the house or like yard work on the weekends. But I mean, it was just expected that kind of thing. But I mean, we. Like, I grew up spending a lot of time with my family. I studied music. I mean, I took harp lessons from the time I was five on. I don't know, I think I was a pretty good student. I think I was a pretty obedient kid. I don't think I've ever been like, super rebellious or W. Um, but I. I wouldn't say that really appealed to me either. Like if my parents told me no, like the thought of like sneaking out of my house and actually contemplating doing it never would have crossed my mind. Like I would have never done that. That would have been completely out of character for me. We as a family, like we went on trips together and we went up into the mountains together and like in the winter we skied together and snowmobiled and in the summer we'd go visit my grandparents ranch and go horseback riding together. I don't know. It was pre great.
- [07:05]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Well and that's one of the factors that protects people. Can you talk about the night you were taken?
- [07:10]
Elizabeth Smart
I feel like a lot of people, they're like, I just knew something was going to happen or knew something bad. That was not my story at all. Like it was a good day, the day leading up to the night. Like it was the end of the school year. Like I was excited for summer to happen. I was excited to not, I don't know, get up and get ready and go to school. Like I was very much looking for the summer. We had like fun summer plans coming up that I was really looking forward to. I was going to graduate from junior high and I lived in a nice neighborhood. I lived in what I'm sure everyone would have considered a safe neighborhood. And I shared a room with my younger sister. And I remember going to bed that night and I remember really the next thing waking up just to a stranger's voice, like a man's voice, which was really strange because like men weren't allowed in my bedroom, strangers weren't allowed in my bedroom. I mean my parents were already like really strict even with like just having friends over. And so I mean that was just, that was so far from anything that I expected to hear at first. I just didn't think that could even be real. How could that even be possible? So I mean I. I remember not immediately moving and I remember him repeating the same words again, which were was, I have a knife at your neck, don't make a sound, get up and come with me. And like I just remember being scared. Like I'd never really been scared like that before. I mean like before that moment, being scared was doing poorly on an assignment, going to my harp lesson unprepared, I don't know, having my parents tell me to go clean my room and instead just sneaking up and reading my book and then hearing my parents steps coming towards like really small trivial things. And so in that moment I just Remember thinking, there's nothing for me to do. I can only do what he's telling me to do. And I knew my younger sister was in bed next to me. I thought she was asleep at the time. I didn't know that she actually was awake watching it happen. And so I got up and I did exactly as he said. I mean, I remember he took me into my closet. I remember reaching for a pair of slippers. But he, like, specifically pointed out my tennis shoes that I should take. I remember, like, the path he led me through my home, out through my back kitchen door and my home.
- [09:54]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Is that how he came in the house?
- [09:56]
Elizabeth Smart
No, he broke in through a window. Yeah, he forced it open and cut through the screen and came in. Yeah. And so. But he did take me out the kitchen door, the back kitchen door.
- [10:08]
Dr. Daniel Amen
What time of the morning was it?
- [10:10]
Elizabeth Smart
It would have been, like, around between 2 and 3 in the morning. Yeah, it would have been very early, early morning. And he. Yeah, he took me up through my backyard. And that was even before he let me put my shoes on. It wasn't until we were, like, at the very top of my backyard that he actually, like, sat down and gave me a chance to put my shoes on. And then I remember from there, he. He took me up into the mountains behind my. Behind my house. And, I mean, we were. We were running up into the mountains. I really. And we didn't make it to, like, his hidden campsite till after the sun was up. I mean, the sun was risen by the time we made it there.
- [10:59]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And what was he saying to you?
- [11:02]
Elizabeth Smart
There were a few different things that he said. I mean, the two that I guess I've spoken most about have been when I. I asked him if he was going to rape and kill me, could he do it, like, close to my home? Just because I wanted my parents to know what had happened to me. And I had a pretty active imagination. And I had heard on the news of reports of mountain lion attacks, and there were coyotes up behind my house as well. And so, I mean, I wanted my body to be in one piece. And I remember saying, if you're going to rape and kill me, could you do it here? And when I said that to him, he had. He looked at me and smiles like, I'm not going to rape and kill you. Yet. And yet. Yeah, there's a yet there. And the other question that I remember that was, I guess stood out more than others was I asked him if he realized what he was doing, because if he got caught, he'd Spend the rest of his life in prison. But I remember begging him that if he just let me go, that we wouldn't press any charges. But he responded that he knew exactly what the consequences were. The only difference was he was not going to get caught. Beyond that, he really didn't answer my questions, or he'd answer them in a roundabout way. Like, if I said, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? He'd say stuff like, all will be revealed in due time. If I asked him what was going to happen next, it was kind of the same thing. All will be revealed in due time. At one point, he did tell me he was taking me hostage. And I remember telling him, like. Like, whatever you want. Like, my parents will do it. They'll find a way to make it happen. Just like, just let me go.
- [12:53]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So this is actually a very organized kidnapping.
- [12:57]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes. He had seen me, like, the October, November, before I was kidnapped in June. He saw me October, November. And he. From the moment he saw me, like, without ever talking to me, without having any interaction with me, he decided I was the one he was going to kidnap. And from that time to the time that he actually did kidnap me, he. He planned. Yeah.
- [13:19]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And then the first couple of days, what were they like?
- [13:23]
Elizabeth Smart
They were pretty bad. I mean, when I got there, he. Like, I was changed. He told me I was now his wife. Like, he tried to marry me. He raped me. He chained me up. I mean, the first day after. After all of that happened, which happened within the first, like, half hour of me getting into this hidden campsite, he. Both. He and his wife, because his wife was there waiting for his real wife, his legal wife was there waiting. And both. Both of them had said, you know, you can cry today, but after today, you can't cry anymore. And you're not allowed to speak about your family. And your name's not Elizabeth anymore. And come to realize that God commanded us to take you and that you were chosen by God to become. Well, he claimed his name was Emmanuel at the time. At the time, Emmanuel's second wife. And just those first. I mean, those first few days were just like a lot of them justifying what they did by saying God commanded it. I mean, the second day that I was there, I. What then. The first day, they. And I mean, they controlled everything. They controlled how much water I could drink. They could. They controlled how much food I was allowed to eat. They, you know, controlled when I. When I went to sleep. I mean, they really controlled every waking, breathing moment of my life and the Second or at the end of the first day, they said, he said, Brian Mitchell, his real name, he said to me because I was shy and timid and what 14 year old would not be in this situation. But he said I, he said that it was important for me to realize that I was no better than anybody else and that we needed to take things all the way back to the beginning. So the next day, the second day, we would all be like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. And I had to go naked all day long. And that the next day they were going to demonstrate properly how a husband and wife had sex. And I would need to watch and I would need to learn and then I would immediately need to perform everything that I learned. And I mean, the next day came and I mean everything about the setup in the, in the camp, inside the tent, I mean, was to control me. I mean, even at night when it came to sleeping, I was in the middle. I had a captor on, on either side of me. The next day came and sure enough, like they stripped me down and demonstrated. And I remember just closing my eyes and looking away because I really didn't like, I was, I was very innocent. I was a very innocent 14 year old. I was a very young 14 year old. And I remember just thinking like, I can't look at this, this is bad, this is wrong. I shouldn't be looking at this, this isn't right. But I remember them just like, they wouldn't end it until I watched. They wouldn't. You know, they're like, you're not going to have anything to eat, you're not going to have anything to drink. Like, you cannot leave this tent until you look and you learn. And that's, I mean, that's what happened that second day.
- [17:32]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And what's going on inside your mind?
- [17:35]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean there was a lot going on. I, I was raised, I was raised Mormon, very conservative religion. And like my whole life I had been taught about like chastity and purity and virtue and really they kind of just seem to mean don't have sex before marriage. And like I had 14 years of, of that education and, and in the meantime, nobody taught me the difference, that there was a difference between sexual abuse and rape versus like actual like loving consenting intimacy. Nobody ever took the time. It just wasn't really spoken about. It was just, you don't do it. And so, I mean, I felt a huge sense of guilt. Even though I knew it wasn't my fault, I still felt guilt. I felt a lot of self Worthlessness. Like, I just lost my value. Like, one physical act took away all of my value as a human being. I, Like, I was scared. I just. I mean, how could this happen to me? Why did this happen to me? I feel like I felt a little bit of everything and. And my brain was going in, like, 100 different directions. Like, why would someone want to kidnap me? Why would someone want to hurt me? Like, why would he choose me? And what was my family doing? Were they okay? Were they. I mean, the first morning, like, did they even know I was gone yet? Were they looking for me? What was going to happen? Was I going to be rescued if I could just hold out long enough, Would I be rescued? Would it. Would I be worth rescuing if people knew what had happened to me? Or would. Was I a lost cause that people just didn't know about it yet? If I survived and I made it back into society, like, would I be accepted or would I be shunned? Like, because I lost my value? Those were a lot of questions that, that were going through my mind.
- [19:43]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So much, right? So much. Were you the first person they kidnapped?
- [19:51]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes. The form, I mean, they tried others, but they hadn't been successful. And initially they had tried just approaching grown women to come be a part of their manipulations and control under the guise of religion. And actually they did convince. They convinced at least one woman to, like, come and come be, like, with them for a bit. But ultimately she did leave.
- [20:34]
Dr. Daniel Amen
This is before you.
- [20:35]
Elizabeth Smart
This is before me. And I mean, both of them had prior marriages to different people before they married each other. And I mean, they had been on. I would say he had been on a dangerous path since he was a kid. And I think there were, as I've learned more about his history, there were red flags along the way. I did not have to be kidnapped like people could have. If people had taken action based on what they saw of him. Well, before 2002, I would have never been kidnapped. But his behavior just went unchecked and he got away with things. And I think it built up like a. I. It just made him feel like he was so important because he did get away with so many things. He wasn't stopped. And I think he also found that the best way to manipulate people was through religion. And I think also, if you look back at that time, 9, 11 had only happened the September prior to my kidnapping. And I mean, I was a kid, but it certainly felt like on the news, a lot of people were really kind of nervous about any form of, like, religious extremism. And I think my captors took that into account. I mean, they changed the way that they dress. They changed the way that they acted. I mean, and I just, like, I think back on that time and I like, I can remember jumping, I guess, further ahead in my. During my captivity, like it. On the rare occasion they did bring me into public, just the way that everything about us kind of screams, stay away. I remember walking down the street and seeing people look up when we were walking towards them, cross the street, go by us and then cross back over. Or people rolling down their windows of their car and as they drove by, yelling things like Osama as they drove by. So, I mean, I think there was a lot of thought put into. Put into gaining as much control of, of the situation as he could and in pushing people away. And I mean, even. Even today, I feel like a lot of people are. Are hesitant to push too hard when someone says, well, it's part of my religion. I mean, there might be questions of curiosity, but I think very few people actually will call you out and be like, you're wrong. Your beliefs are wrong. And I think my captors really capitalized on that.
- [23:18]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So the first month you were in captivity for nine months?
- [23:22]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [23:23]
Dr. Daniel Amen
What were the things going through your head the first month?
- [23:28]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, I would say mostly it just came down to how am I going to survive? It mostly just came down to. I mean, I. I did make the decision early on that I wanted to survive regardless of if society accepted me back. Because I. I finally got to a point where I felt like my parents would accept me back. And if they accepted me back, that was enough.
- [23:52]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So where did this idea come from? The. Somehow it was your fault and they wouldn't.
- [23:58]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, I knew that, like, it was the sexual violence. I mean, I knew that it wasn't my fault. It's not like I asked to be kidnapped. It's not like I asked to be raped. It wasn't like I was, like, actively engaging in it.
- [24:13]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right.
- [24:13]
Elizabeth Smart
You're so good up to this point. Was not my fault. But just having had, you know, 14 years of, like, going to church every single Sunday and I don't know how many lessons. So many lessons, like talking about purity, talking about chastity and virtue, and, like, there'd be examples like, you like a piece of gum and, and if you have sex before marriage, it's like someone chews up that piece of gum and nobody wants a piece of gum that's been chewed up. Or like, you know, you're like a Flower. And if you have sex before marriage, it's like someone's plucking that petal, the petals off the flower. Like, nobody just wants an empty stem. So having years of like those lessons instilled in me and those examples, like, what is chewed up gum? Nobody recycles chewed up gum. You throw it away. Like, and what about flowers? Like, I'm not crafty enough, I suppose to know. I'm sure there's something you could do with them today, but I don't know what it is. Like, but once a flower, like when I'm given flowers, like, I love them, I, I love flowers, but you know, once they drop their petals and die, like, I throw them away.
- [25:32]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So there was not a big focus on grace and forgiveness and the woman at the, well, Mary Magdalene, I think.
- [25:43]
Elizabeth Smart
I don't think anyone would say there wasn't it. The dots just weren't connected. That was not taught.
- [25:52]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah. Which is so sad.
- [25:56]
Elizabeth Smart
And so, I mean, I very much felt that my worth was tied to whether or not I was a virgin. A chase. Chase. Yes. Before marriage.
- [26:07]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And you decided to survive.
- [26:09]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [26:11]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And so at least in the documentary. Yes, I watched. You were cooperative as you could be. Right. With what you knew. And do you think he was psychotic?
- [26:25]
Elizabeth Smart
Like, I know, I don't think he was crazy. I mean, maybe there's evil. I thought he was evil. I think he found a really effective way of manipulating people around him. And I think that's what he loved. I mean, I think he loved being able to control people. I think that's why he liked, like, I think that's why he like kidnapping me or having me. Because he could control everything. Like, he could control absolutely everything about my situation. And I think that's ultimately what he loved. He loved having like a sense of power and a sense of control over other people and a sense of self importance. I, I think both of them love that. I mean, they used to get into terrible, terrible fights. Like, my parents disagreed growing up, but I had never heard it. Heard them like just absolutely, like screaming and wailing on each other. Like, sure, if they disagreed, like, we all, like, we were aware of it, but I never heard them just like berate each other or anything like that. I never saw that kind of behavior. So then when my captors, like, they just, like Wanda Barzee, his wife, like, she just would like yell at him because, and it was typically over me because she, I was jealous that he was looking at me or that he wanted to rape me and not be with her. And she But I don't think she hated me because I think she got that same sense of satisfaction because she also got to boss me around. She also got to like have a degree of control. And so they would, they would just yell and fight with each other until finally he would like get caught. Like he would calm down and he would then turn around with just like the oiliest tone of voice. Like, just like the most like self important, like I have a direct, I have a private phone line to God kind of voice you can imagine. And they also did not go by their, their legal names. He went by Emmanuel and she went by Hepzibah. And he would turn to her and he would say things like, hepzibah, Hepzibah, I love thee. God has a message for thee. God wants to speak with thee. And then he would give her a blessing in which like he said, like he held a special priesthood that you know, only he held. And he would give her this blessing and it would say things in it like, you are the mother of Zion. You have a throne awaiting you in heaven on the, on the right hand side of God. Your crown that is prepared for you defies all, all. Even imagination is beyond anything you can imagine. Like, you just need to endure this life. And yes, Emmanuel, like he has a very heavy burden to carry. A very heavy mantle lies upon him and you need to be his support. And if he turns to share Jacob, which was the name they gave me for comfort, you need to support that. And then he would finish and he'd finish his, his blessing on her, his. But God needed to tell her and like she would calm down. It was his way of controlling her. Like, and then, I mean she would turn back to him and be like, I am a queen and I am a mother and a mother of Zion and I deserve, you know, more respect. And you just turn to her because you're intimidated by me and she's not as special as I am. And you don't have to like live up to God's expectations with her the way you do with me. So I know when I talk about these things and I hear myself talking about these things, I know it would be easy for people to think, yeah, he's, that's crazy talk. But I just don't think he was because everything was so calculated and he was. It would be wrong to think that he was not intelligent. It would be wrong to think he didn't understand what he was doing. He knew, he talked to me about the consequences of actions if he was ever caught like, he knew what he was doing. Both of them did. And I think they just got into a. I think they just went down a path of. Of greed and selfishness and wanting to be important but not actually willing to, like, put the effort into being.
- [32:06]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Such a twisted way. Yes. Right. I mean, it's such a twisted way. Yet clearly the kidnapping was organized.
- [32:15]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [32:15]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And the repeated raping was purposeful.
- [32:21]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [32:22]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right. What was the lowest point when you were taken, or.
- [32:30]
Elizabeth Smart
I honestly don't know if I could say what was the lowest point? There were some. There were some very low lows. And I feel like years ago, there was a movie that came out. It was ever After. It was, like, with Drew Barrymore in, and it's based on, like, a Cinderella kind of story. And there's a point where the evil stepmother says to Cinderella, Drew Barrymore, that she. To like, quote her, she says, we mustn't ever feel sorry for ourselves, because no matter how bad things get, they can always get worse. And when I was kidnapped, I remember thinking, I have hit rock bottom. Things can't possibly get worse. And then they would get worse. And then, I mean, that had been, like, a family favorite movie. And I remember thinking, wow, she's actually right. Things always can get worse. Like, I'm not sure if there is a rock bottom. And so I eventually stopped thinking this is as bad as things can get because I. It felt like I would be devastated then when something else worse would happen. And so I felt like I tried to switch my thought process to being like, okay, this is pretty bad. This is really bad. But, like, thank heavens it's sunny today because I'm not cold, or thank heavens it rained because I haven't had water in over a day and now I have something to drink. Or thank heaven someone threw their, like, half of their burrito in the garbage can. Thank heavens they didn't feel like finishing up because now, like, my captor has given me something to eat. So I felt like I had to switch my thinking because I. It was just too hard the other way.
- [34:28]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And were there high points?
- [34:33]
Elizabeth Smart
Were there high points? I don't think I'd ever say I was, like, happy with them. There were points that I was less worried or scared. There were points that, like. Like the first time they ever brought me out into public, I remember feeling hopeful that something good would happen, that maybe I'd be recogn or that this could lead to my. Lead to my rescue, or maybe even I just get a glimpse of, like, my family because I wasn't far from my home. I was only, like, three miles, a little bit over three miles away from my house. And, I mean, when they took me down into Salt Lake, like, it's not like I didn't know where I was at. I knew where I was at. Like, they took me to places that were familiar to me.
- [35:33]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Why do you think they did that? Didn't they think somebody might recognize you or you might try to run?
- [35:43]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, it wasn't like they just let me walk wherever I wanted. I mean, I was always in between them. I was always within reach of them. And I had been heavily threatened for a long time. And they followed through with their threats. Like, if I ever tested them, they followed through. So the threats they did make were very real to me. And I. I think. I think it comes back to, like, that power rush and that control rush that he got, knowing that Salt Lake City was. Was so heavily invested in the search for me that so many people were looking for me. I think he, like, got a real high off of parading me through the streets without people actually critically looking at me or just being like, oh, they're.
- [36:44]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Like a religious back to camp. Would he be high off of that?
- [36:51]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, yeah, he. He said things like, we just have to have faith in God. And, like, today, God will blind the people, even though you're right in front of them. He would say things like that, wow.
- [37:07]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And when they got arrested, they're in jail for how long?
- [37:12]
Elizabeth Smart
So Wanda Barzee has been released. She is out. But Brian Mitchell, he got life without parole.
- [37:22]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And do you feel confident he'll always be in prison?
- [37:28]
Elizabeth Smart
He. Well, yes. Yes, I do.
- [37:34]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And how did you feel when she got out?
- [37:36]
Elizabeth Smart
I was disappointed. I felt like she, in her first marriage, was a mother. She had six kids of her own from her first marriage, and how could she. And they were all older than me. I mean, her youngest was still older than me. I mean, she could have had grandkids my age. And how could she just step aside and not. Not only just step aside, but encourage not just my kidnapping, but my rapings, like, and watch them happen? How could she do that? And I'm. I mean, she was, in my. My feelings was. She was every bit as bad as he was, as he was. I mean, she might not have ever personally raped me, but she sat there and let him. She encouraged him. She watched it all happen. Like, it felt pretty complicit to me. So I was disappointed at that point. I was also. I remember also thinking, wow, this must be how all the victims who at least I got some. Something. I mean, everyone at least knows she's wrong, even if she's out walking the streets now. What about all those victims who never even had that? I feel like it gave me a little bit more compassion for all of the survivors who never have even a drop of justice.
- [39:10]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Talk about the day you were rescued.
- [39:16]
Elizabeth Smart
During my captivity, my captors had taken me to Southern California for the winter outside of San Diego, a place called Lakeside. And I was not, like, taken in public really very much at all. And at one point, they stopped it completely from taking me out in public. They did actually attempt to kidnap another young girl. But all this time, I mean, I realized that my chances of being found or rescued were, like, getting smaller and smaller and that. That ultimately my best chance of rescue would be to get back to Utah, would be to get back to Salt Lake. And so I'd been able to convince them to return to Salt Lake. I had a plan of how to get back to. They always talked about, like, all of their suffering that they experienced and how. How important it was that they actually experienced those sufferings because they'd use the comparison that Christ descended below all things. And so it was important that they descend below all things before. Just like Christ was exalted, they need to experience that before he could exalt them as well. And so I listened to nine months of them talking about their suffering and trials that they experienced, even. Even down to silly things like giving up a car, then relying on public transportation, then taking it a step further and having to hitchhike. And so I thought, well, what better way to possibly put me in contact with as many different people in an environment that's not controlled by them, that's, you know, whoever picks us up, it's their environment. Like, surely they'll notice. Like, this is not. This is not okay. Like, this is not normal, this whole dynamic of the three of us. Someone is going to notice something. And so I framed it the same way. Like, you know, you've. You've shared with me, like, your experiences of suffering and your trials and tribulations. And as I've been growing and learning, I feel like this is something that I need to experience as well. And I think that I need to learn to have faith that God will provide a way. And I think it would be good for us to experience. Good for me. Good for me to experience what it is like to put my faith completely in God and rely on complete strangers to pick us up and take us to our destination. And that's how it was decided. We hitchhiked back. So we hitchhiked back and it was the. It was the first day we made it back to Utah. We were walking up State street in Salt Lake City. They'd taken me into a Walmart because it was their plan that once they got me up into the mountains, that they were never going to bring me out of the mountains again once they got me up to the hiding spot. And so it was March. I mean, it's still cold, it's still snowy, muddy. Definitely where they would be taking me. There. It would be very cold, be very, very cold. It would be very muddy. There probably would still be snow on the ground where they were going to be taking me. And so they needed to get supplies. And of course, that was not actually paying for it. It was just straight up stealing it. So we went into Walmart and I remember him grabbing, like, sturdier hiking boots and like, some. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I want to say they grabbed. They didn't. I don't think they grabbed blankets. He had some things he wanted to grab. I remember the hiking boots. I want to say he wanted to grab sleeping bags, but I don't know if he actually did. And then he's stealing all this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Stealing it.
- [43:37]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And did he work at all during those nine months? How did they get money?
- [43:42]
Elizabeth Smart
He either stole what he wanted or he would just go out and panhandle. He called it ministering. Because the true disciples of Christ would recognize him for the prophet and the Davidic king that he was, and they would provide for him. So he called it ministering, but it was just. Just. It was panhandling.
- [44:02]
Dr. Daniel Amen
There's a shade of craziness in there. Just saying.
- [44:09]
Elizabeth Smart
Maybe. But he wasn't. He wasn't dumb like, he was smart like you have. You would have to be to pull this off.
- [44:19]
Dr. Daniel Amen
They're not mutually exclusive. Anyway, Killer was crazy and he was brilliant. Him and. But he was still crazy.
- [44:31]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes. And almost half the world followed him.
- [44:35]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah. So we would say both of these people were evil.
- [44:39]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [44:40]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah. I don't care how you feel. I just want to get my needs met.
- [44:48]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [44:48]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I don't care how you feel. You are there to serve me.
- [44:52]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [44:53]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right. Anyways, you're in Walmart.
- [44:57]
Elizabeth Smart
We're in Walmart. And then we walked out of the Walmart to the sidewalk along the side of the road, and we started walking towards. Well, towards the heart of downtown Salt Lake. So north upstate street. And I saw a police car like, approaching us, but it felt like he was going pretty fast. So I thought, oh, like, what. What are they doing? They must be going to, like, answer a call, because it seemed like they were. I just didn't think they were gonna stop at us. But then there was a police car that pulled up, and then, I don't know, another one, Another one. And there were just a lot. Felt like there were a lot of police officers all of a sudden approaching us and, like, questioning my captors and questioning me. And, I mean, I wasn't separated from my captors immediately. Like, I was. Like, I had a captor on either side of me physically touching me. So I. I did not feel like I could say who I was. I mean, there was nine months of. Of.
- [46:00]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Of punishment.
- [46:01]
Elizabeth Smart
Punishment, exactly. Of threats and abuse. And. And I knew what my captors were capable of. I didn't know. Like, I had never interacted with the police officer. Like, I didn't know if they could actually protect me. Like, I didn't know if they'd actually believe me. Like, I'm a kid. Why would the police officers believe a teenager? Maybe the people who are the age group that you would distrust the most, like, why would they believe me over these two adults who were claiming to be. I mean, they obviously weren't sitting there being like, I'm the Davidic king and I'm the prophet that's, you know, predicting the end of the world. They didn't say that. They knew that sounded crazy, so they didn't say that. They. They just said that they were ministers for Christ trying to invite people to come unto him, and that. That's. That's what they did. And so, like, there was a fear of not being believed. There was a fear that even if I. I mean, if I said who I was, that I would be punished for it later, that maybe I wouldn't survive later if I said something I wasn't supposed to or that it would make this situation worse. Like, maybe somebody else would get hurt or, like, the police officers wouldn't actually intervene. Like, I just. I just didn't know.
- [47:36]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So how long is this interaction? I think from the time the police came until the time you said, you're Elizabeth Smart.
- [47:43]
Elizabeth Smart
Like, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, maybe. And I mean, the police, like, they weren't gentle. They were quite abrasive. They were quite aggressive in their question.
- [47:56]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Interaction where there's all three of you.
- [47:58]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes, they were aggressive. Aggressive with all three of us. When they did finally separate me from my captors, they were, once again, quite Aggressive with me, even, which, like, scared me even more.
- [48:14]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Well, how crazy is that? Now I'm trying to understand why. At what point did they realize you were who they thought?
- [48:26]
Elizabeth Smart
I think they.
- [48:27]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Because that's the reason you got all those police officers at once is somebody said they thought they saw Elizabeth Smart.
- [48:35]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah, I think they had multiple people call in about the three of us. It was the same. And it was. I mean, my. The investigation by this point, my little sister, she had finally come forward and said, I think I know who kidnapped her. It's this guy. He came and did some yard work. I think he's the one that kidnapped her. Which is quite interesting because from my understanding, from when my parents have told me about it, was that when she said that the police didn't really want to believe her. They were stuck on it being this other guy who had had a brain aneurysm and died in prison. They thought it was him, and so they didn't really want to believe my sister. And my dad was like, she was the only one that saw that was in that room that night that saw this person. Like, and you don't want to believe her. Like, she is the only one that could possibly give any direction in this case.
- [49:32]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So how traumatic for her.
- [49:34]
Elizabeth Smart
Yes.
- [49:34]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right. One, to see it happen, and then two, to not be believed.
- [49:40]
Elizabeth Smart
And so, yeah. And so my dad, like, insisted on having a police sketch artist, like, try to sketch him. And so my dad and I think two of my brothers did, like, composite drawings. And then my dad was friends with John Walsh from America's Most Wanted back then, and they were in pretty good communication. And my dad had shared with John about my sister and what she remembered, and then this drawing. And then John Walsh went on Larry King Live and, like, spilled the beans, basically, like, said there was someone else that Mary Catherine remembered someone else. And he had, like, an image of the composite drawing, and he shared it on Larry King Live, which led to Brian Mitchell's siblings coming forward with an actual picture of him and being. Saying, like, this. That's. That's our brother. And yes, like, there have been confirmed sightings that he's not just with his wife, but there's a younger. A younger girl with him as well. And so then coming back into Utah, people were on the lookout for him specifically. And so then when they. When these people are calling in and saying, I just saw Brian Mitchell, but, like, it was just everyone thought that I was the young girl with him, which, of course I was. So the police had multiple reports of. Of People seeing us.
- [51:15]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And so when you said they were aggressive with you, what were they saying to you?
- [51:23]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, it was just like their whole attitude and, like, the whole. I mean, it was the tone of their voice. It was like their stance. It wasn't like, hey, are you okay? Like. Like, we're here to help you. It was like, who are you? What are you doing? Like, where are you going? Where have you been? Like, it was just, like, very, like. Like, startling and shocking and, like, just, like, very. Like, they were just very. I don't know. Felt like I was being, like, just steamrolled. And I remember being scared of them. I mean, I remember being. I was scared of my captors, but I was also scared of them. And I knew what my captors were like. I didn't know what they were like.
- [52:19]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And then they handcuffed you?
- [52:20]
Elizabeth Smart
And then they handcuffed me.
- [52:21]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Put you in the police car.
- [52:23]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah.
- [52:24]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Took you to the station. And at what point did you feel relieved?
- [52:30]
Elizabeth Smart
It wasn't until. I mean, even on the way there, I remember thinking, if they thought I was innocent, wouldn't they just take me home? Or wouldn't they, like, let me call my dad, like. Or my mom, like, my parents? Why were they not letting me talk to them? And they. They brought me to the station, and it wasn't until my dad actually showed up in the station and he was hugging me that I was like, it's going to be okay. Like, I think I still might be in trouble, but my dad's here and it's going to be okay.
- [53:03]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Wow. So trauma even in rescue?
- [53:07]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah.
- [53:08]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Wow. I have so many more questions. So. So depression during the kidnap, but not afterwards. That's really interesting. But five years ago, unexplained attacks, deja vu, dizziness Occurred while you were pregnant? Once or twice without being pregnant. Tell me about that.
- [53:38]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, I don't. Like, I've never. I've never had anything. I mean, people ask me all the time about ptsd and, like, sometimes, like, I almost feel like. Like, sometimes I'm like, am I wrong? Like, have I repressed it somewhere? Like, I don't feel like I have.
- [54:01]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Like, it sounds like you remember it.
- [54:03]
Elizabeth Smart
I feel fine. Like, so. I mean, I've never had nightmares. Nightmares or flashbacks or attacks or things like that. I mean, like, there are sometimes, like, situations, or I'm just like, I don't like this, or I don't feel comfortable with this. But I. I wouldn't say it's, like, stopped me from doing whatever it was. I needed to do. But, yeah, I noticed it when I was pregnant with my second child, my son. Like, and they were just, like, small. They weren't. Weren't. They weren't big. And it didn't happen a lot, but it would just be like, a feeling. It would be. It would be like deja vu, but it would be like a deja vu of, like, bad. Like, it just. I don't. I don't even really know how to describe it. Like, it felt like deja vu, but it wasn't. It felt. It didn't feel good. It felt bad. And usually when it would happen, like, if I was, like, driving the car, I would just pull over because it would pass pretty quickly. I mean, it didn't. It wasn't prolonged or anything.
- [55:24]
Dr. Daniel Amen
A couple minutes.
- [55:26]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah, if that.
- [55:27]
Dr. Daniel Amen
If.
- [55:28]
Elizabeth Smart
Then a minute maybe. I mean, maybe a minute and a half. It wasn't long. And then after I had him, like, I. I didn't experience them again until I had my daughter, my youngest daughter. And like, they, like, got a bit more intense until I was probably. I don't know, I was probably, like, seven or eight months pregnant. And I remember, like, I had gotten up that morning and I had gotten my. My oldest, like, ready for her little preschool that she went to. And then, like, I had gotten. I went to go get in the shower, and, like, my. I think my son was, like, taking a nap or he was. Like, we had a nanny, and he was with the nanny, and I went to go get in the shower. And then I remember being in the shower, and I could just, like, feel it, like, coming on. And I was just like, okay, like, I'm gonna go get out of the shower, and I'm just gonna go lay down in bed and it'll pass and it'll be fine. And I don't actually remember getting out of the shower. I don't remember, like, wrapping up in a robe or, like, putting a towel on my hair. I don't remember making it into my bed, but I remember waking up in my bed and not knowing really how I had gotten there, not knowing where my two other children were at, not even really being able to articulate my speech, which, like, I've never not been able to do that. I've never, like, lost my power of speech before. And I remember calling my husband in the UK and, like, he was, like, asking me what was wrong. But I just, like, felt like I couldn't even. I don't know, I just felt like I couldn't strongly speak. And so, I mean, he was in a panic. He's like, I'm getting on the next flight. He called up my mom and told me to, told her to come get me and take me to the hospital and. And she did. And I mean, by the time, by the time I got to the hospital even like it was not even the hospital, first of all, it was just like the clinic maybe 10 minutes away. Like by the time I got to the clinic, I was fine. But they're like, oh, you're pregnant. Oh, you had something like something in your brain. Go on. Like, we're going to take you down to like the University of Utah hospital down in Salt Lake and you know, we're going to check you out there. And I mean I was, I was fine. Like they checked me out, they just came back and they're like, oh, have you been hit in the head? Like, have you like paid, played like contact sports or anything else? No. And they're like, oh, you just. We can't find anything wrong. But you just have. I think they said it was like nine or ten scars on my brain. And they're like, that's not typically consistent with people your age and that was it.
- [58:22]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Well, that's important. You know. You don't get that from playing the harp.
- [58:29]
Elizabeth Smart
No, they're like, we usually see this in like NFL football players or like someone who's lived a very long.
- [58:38]
Dr. Daniel Amen
You're right. Doesn't look anything like my football lengthy life.
- [58:41]
Elizabeth Smart
And they're like, oh, that, that is interesting though.
- [58:48]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So what's happened with the rage?
- [58:53]
Elizabeth Smart
The rage? The rage, like rage against what happened to me? Yeah, I don't.
- [59:01]
Podcast Announcer
Where did that go?
- [59:02]
Elizabeth Smart
I think I'm like a very angry person.
- [59:05]
Dr. Daniel Amen
No, you're not an angry person. You're a lovely person. Like there's nothing that's gotta make you.
- [59:16]
Elizabeth Smart
Furious, but like there's nothing that I can do. Like, like I'm not a violent person. So even if someone put a gun in my hand and was like, here's your shot, shoot him dead, zero consequences. Like, I don't actually think unless my kids lives were on the line, then I probably could pull the trigger, but I don't think I could actually pull the trigger for me because I'm alive and like, I have a good life.
- [59:49]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Did you testify at the trial?
- [59:51]
Elizabeth Smart
I did, yeah.
- [59:52]
Dr. Daniel Amen
How was that?
- [59:53]
Elizabeth Smart
It was hard. It was hard. I mean, I didn't speak about what happened to me for years. It wasn't until the trial that I felt like everything really came out and.
- [60:04]
Dr. Daniel Amen
You really didn't get therapy for this, did you?
- [60:07]
Elizabeth Smart
No, I.
- [60:08]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So I read you went three times.
- [60:13]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah, yeah. And that was not for the. That was for something else.
- [60:18]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That was for something else. So afterwards, your folks didn't go. She should see somebody.
- [60:25]
Elizabeth Smart
They did. They did. They were worried. But I didn't know what therapy was at the time. Like, the day after I was rescued, I was brought to a children's justice center. And I didn't really know why I was there. I just knew I didn't have a choice in it, which I was not happy about. And I was brought in there. And, I mean, kind of from the get go, I felt. Well, I was upset from the get go because I didn't want to go there to begin with, and I felt forced to go in there. And then when I got there, I mean, they. Like, the people that ran the place, I know they were trying to be kind, like. I know they were trying to be, like, compassionate and everything and, like, trying to, like, make it an easier experience. But to me, it felt a little bit demeaning because, like, they brought me in and they opened this door, and it was full of, like, stuffed animals. To this. This room was full of stuffed animals. And they're like, you can choose any stuffed animal you want. You might want to hold one, you know, while. While you're in this room. And I just remember being like, no, I did not have a stuffed animal to hold during my captivity. Like, what the hell do you think I want one now for? Like, no, I don't. I'm. I survived without a stuffed animal. I will be just fine. If I can survive that, I can survive anything. I don't need a stuffed animal. So I felt a little bit frustrated, angry over that. And then I was brought into a room, and I was left alone in there with these two men, which I was scared of men. After what had happened, I was scared of men. And they were clearly religious. Like, they had. Like, you could. Just. Some of the things they wore indicated they were religious men. And that was uncomfortable.
- [62:29]
Dr. Daniel Amen
After a bit of a trigger.
- [62:31]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah. And then they, like, they wanted. They were asking me very detailed questions, and they wanted me to give detailed answers. But they were introduced to me as psychiatrists, and once again, I didn't really know why I was there. So because they came with the title of psychiatrist, I thought that that was similar to therapy when really they were interviewing me because my parents were told that if they did, they could stand as proxy for me in a trial. Of course, that didn't happen, but that was My first interaction and experience with psychiatrists. And so at that point I was just like, no. And. And there was another part of me that was just like, I don't want to talk about what happened to me. Like, it would have been nice to have someone to talk to me with me while it was going on, but I'm past it. Like, I survived the hard part. Like, why would I want to talk more about it? I've already survived it. Like, you're not like, patting me on the bag and saying, you're going to get through this. I'm through it. So it was just like a lack of education and understanding of what therapy was. And then that experience of me thinking, oh my gosh, this is what it is, and being like, nope, never. No, thank you.
- [63:58]
Dr. Daniel Amen
But you do saunas and ice plunges?
- [64:00]
Elizabeth Smart
I do.
- [64:02]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And you training for marathon?
- [64:05]
Elizabeth Smart
I do.
- [64:07]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That seems hard.
- [64:08]
Elizabeth Smart
It is. But then when I'm running, I can. I tell myself, listen, you can survive anything. You do hard things all the time. A marathon is four hours, three and a half hours. You can survive that.
- [64:26]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So as I was reading your history, I pulled out some things that, that really, to me, represented post traumatic growth. Because what's going on in my head is you're incredibly bright, you're incredibly strong. You're able to read this situation and survive. And it's like, why? And we'll look at your brain in a little bit because I think your brain has something to do with. With it. So as I was reading your history, this part stuck out. Kidnapped, held captive, raped, abused, rescued after nine months. Ultimately pointed her down her path of her current career. Right. You took the trauma and turned it into something helpful, useful. Her life changed dramatically after being rescued. Learning to listen to her gut more, helping her be more compassionate and more patient with people, learn to recognize how not everyone can easily articulate exactly what's going on or what they're feeling affected you in positive and negative ways. And you feel that people are not talking about the difference between rape, rape versus consensual sex, which is why you started the foundation. Can you talk about the foundation for a bit?
- [66:01]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, yeah, I. I feel like there's just so much. There's just such a lack of education. I mean, I've met so many victims who don't even recognize, like, they. I feel like they show all of the behaviors of being a victim, but they don't realize that what happened to them was actually rape or was actually a crime. I mean, because it came from a husband or it came from a boyfriend, or it came from someone they knew and trusted, and so they never used the word rape. And I feel like. I just feel like there's like a. There's a hole in educa. There's a big hole in education. And so I. I don't want what happened to me to happen to other people. And I've heard too many people. I mean, I speak a lot and I share my story a lot. And whenever there's an opportunity to mix and mingle with the crowds afterwards, I always have someone come up to me and disclose to me. I always have someone say, I've never told anyone this before, but the same thing that happened to you happened to me. Or people compare their trauma, they'll be like, oh, something similar happened, but nothing as extreme. And like, all of these things, like, I just, like, I don't think you'd probably be better best to answer this question, so maybe I'll just turn it back on you. But I don't think you can actually compare trauma because I think we're all different. And I think, you know, what might be big for someone might not be big for someone else. I mean, like, my parents divorced about five years ago, four years ago, and that was really, really hard. But other people I know who've gone through divorces or like their parents have gone through divorces, they're like, oh, yeah, they fought all the time. It was a relief. Like, I was so happy when they got divorced. For me, like that, that was hard. And so I'm not saying, like, my kidnapping was easy, it wasn't easy. But I'm just saying, like, you just can't compare trauma. It's not. There's not a scale or a balance.
- [68:16]
Dr. Daniel Amen
It's often the brain you bring into the trauma that determines the brain you have when you come out. So I, I wrote my first professional paper in 1982. It's called Post Vietnam stress disorder, A metaphor for current and past life events. And I learned very early in my career, it's what you bring into the trauma that often determines what happens after it. And you brought into the trauma stability and love and connection. If you had been from a broken home before the trauma with people who didn't like each other, you probably would have had a much harder time during and after that. Your parents early stability probably was protective for you. And there's something in that early development that helped you be really smart because you figured out how to work to evil, deranged people, right? I mean, you're talking about maybe they they're not like formally psychotic, schizophrenic, whatever, but they're deranged, right? I always think of people in these four big circles. I think about their brains. I'll show you yours in just a second. Their minds, the social circle and the spiritual circle. So whenever I evaluate someone, I'm always thinking about these things going on in their lives. I always say, if you want to keep your brain healthy or rescue it, we have to prevent or treat the 11 major risk factors. I'll put this in your packet. I don't want to go over them now. I have. I want to get to your brain. Oh, wait, let me just see if there's anything important. Blood flow. You have great blood flow. You're young. Have you had lab work done?
- [70:39]
Elizabeth Smart
Not recently, no.
- [70:41]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So I should order some justice, like I. I think it's important every year or so to know your vitamin D level. You live in Utah, you're not outside a lot of the air and low. Vitamin D is associated with all sorts of bad things. So, sister with anxiety, you were delivered by forceps. You were in a car accident when you were 16 or 17. Tell me about that.
- [71:12]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, it was small. Like, I didn't even. I was just. I had my blinker on to turn into a. A gas station to fill up and. Yeah, I was just. I was rear ended. It wasn't like a bad five miles.
- [71:26]
Dr. Daniel Amen
An hour or 20 miles.
- [71:27]
Elizabeth Smart
Not 20 miles. I mean, it was just like a. It was just like a sudden push. I mean, like I wasn't hurt.
- [71:34]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And you ski, right?
- [71:35]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah.
- [71:36]
Dr. Daniel Amen
You ever whacked your head when you skied? No, because there is this question in my head. Why does your brain look like an NFL place? It's like, why? Was it the chronic stress from the kidnapping? Was it the forceps? Sometimes that can leave a lasting imprint on the brain. What was the alcohol consumption during the kidnapping?
- [72:09]
Elizabeth Smart
It was not excessive. Just because when, I mean, he had to go a long ways. It was a very difficult. It was a very difficult trail to hike. It was a very difficult location to get to and to go all the way down into the city. And then he couldn't steal the alcohol. He had to buy the alcohol and then he had to get all the way back up. I mean, if he left in the morning, he wouldn't be back until 1 or 2am yeah. So I mean, the next day. So, I mean, it was. It was hard. It was really hard. And so he usually wanted most of it for himself, but when he would bring it Back usually, like, the first night or the next day that he had alcohol. That's when he would have me drink. And I mean, initially, like, it was, like, terrible. Like, I was just like, I. Like, I. I was never gonna drink. Like, that's, like, against, like, what I believe in. That's, like, against, like. Like my personal. Like, just, like, what I expect of myself. But then, I mean, it did eventually get to a point where I also was like, this is a pretty bad situation. This is a really bad situation. Like, if there's something to make it even a little bit less bad, or, like, maybe help me not feel everything quite as much, then that's okay.
- [73:43]
Dr. Daniel Amen
You could understand it.
- [73:44]
Elizabeth Smart
Yeah. But, I mean, it.
- [73:46]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Was there one type of alcohol you liked more than another that I like?
- [73:50]
Elizabeth Smart
No, No, I don't. I don't think I liked. I mean, I feel like he brought back lots of different kind. I mean, he started off with red wine and then white wine, and I was like, this tastes like baby spit up. And then. And then he started bringing back harder alcohol. Like, he brought in vodka, he brought back rum. He brought back randomly, like, peppermint schnapps. Schnapps. Schnapps. I remember at one point he did give me rum that had been mixed with Coke. And I was like, this is not quite as terrible, I think probably because it was mixed in with Coke, but I wouldn't say that. I was just like, yum. Like, I'd love some more of that.
- [74:41]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Okay. You're introvert in public, so that's interesting, because you're in the public eye and you speak and.
- [75:00]
Elizabeth Smart
I mean, I like. I would say it's a learned skill.
- [75:03]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I'm sorry?
- [75:04]
Elizabeth Smart
I would say it's a learned skill. Like, I needed to learn how to speak and, like, small talk and all that comes with it. But do I prefer that?
- [75:15]
Dr. Daniel Amen
No, I prefer it wears you out a little bit.
- [75:19]
Elizabeth Smart
I prefer being at home.
- [75:21]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Your PHQ9 is this scale of depression. It's from 1 to 27. Yours is 1. So you're not depressed. Your ACE score, adverse childhood experiences besides the kidnapping, is 1. And your HOPE score, which is great. We actually have three papers. We had one come out today on adverse childhood experiences and how that changes your brain. We have a new paper coming out on Hope, and your Hope score was great. It was 58. It was really good. Why people come to see me is because we look at their brains and we do a study called spect. And SPECT looks at blood flow and activity, looks at how your Brain works. It basically shows us three things. Good activity, too little or too much. And then my job is to balance it. And in a healthy scan, it should just be full, even and symmetrical. Color doesn't matter. It's the shape. And so here we're looking up from the bottom. This is the front, that's the back. Here we're looking down from the top and just full, even and symmetrical. This one's actually going to matter a little bit more for us here. Blue is average activity, red is the top 15%, white is the top 8%. So white's like super active parts of the brain. Overall you have a lot of great activity. Your frontal lobe. So this probably the most important part of the human brain. Focus, forethought, judgment, impulse control, organization, planning, empathy, reading, social cues, reading, having a goal I want to survive. And then organizing what you do in order to make, make that happen. That's this part. If this part would have been low, odds are you probably wouldn't have survived the one part that could be a bit better. These are your temporal lobes. This one's good. This one looked like it got hurt. So it's sort of like it looks like at some point you got whacked and it sort of hurt your temporal lobes. Now it's not dead, it's just sleepy. And we can make it better. That's sort of the exciting thing about my work is we can see what's going on with your brain and then make it better. And I have these two packets, multiple vitamin fish oil, brain boost. I know you're already taking fish oil. Guarantee mine's better. We studied it. In these two packets is 1440 milligrams of omega 3 fatty acids. And just help. And then there's a brain boost that works in six different ways that helps your memory. And so yes, it could be you've seen so many people and your brain just doesn't care anymore. Or it could be it's a little sleepy here and we want to fatten it up, up so you're just a bit sharper. Make sense? Okay. This is the area at some point got wet and maybe it was the car accident. Your brain is the consistency of soft butter tofu custard, somewhere between egg whites and jello. And it's housed in a really hard skull that if you look inside has sharp bony ridges.
- [79:21]
Podcast Announcer
And.
- [79:24]
Dr. Daniel Amen
It'S just those minor concussions can cause major problems. But we have as a team, lots of experience doing follow up scans. If you came back four months later, say you took the Two packets a day. Your brain could look like. Like this. It just. Just get a whole bunch healthier. Oh, so you are not stuck with what you have. We can make it better. And I would suggest we do that.
- [79:56]
Elizabeth Smart
Okay, let's do it.
- [79:58]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Now, if you leave here and you go, you know, I agree with The Washington Post. Dr. Amond's really crazy. And. And you don't do anything. Anything. Over time, your brain could look like that. And so let's not.
- [80:18]
Elizabeth Smart
No.
- [80:19]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And yeah. So here today, and hopefully here next year. And it starts by loving your brain.
- [80:34]
Elizabeth Smart
Right?
- [80:34]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Nobody chooses about their brain because you can't see it. You can see the wrinkles in your skin or the fat around your belly. Do something when you're unhappy with those. But the brain is the most important organ in our body. And even be good to teach your kids to love their brain. And so you just play a game with them. When my daughter Chloe was little, we called it Chloe's game. And it's like, is this good for your brain or bad for it? So if I'd say blueberries, she'd go, are they organic? I'm like, of course. She goes, God's candy. I said, avocados. She'd go, God's butter. I said, talking back to your redheaded mother. She'd go, very bad. Okay, so now that we have this, let's look at the active view, because this is where we can do something about it. So remember, blue is average, red is the top 15%, white is the top 8%, which should be here in your cerebellum and your cerebellum, despite running a lot, is sleepy. So I want you to do coordination exercises because that will start to activate. Running really isn't a coordination exercise. It's just like one foot after the other. So table tennis, my favorite sport. Tennis, pickleball, something like that will help activate this, and that will help. Your emotional Brain's pretty busy. When I talk about ptsd, I always talk about the diamond pattern in the brain, and you sort of have it. If you look at it, it sort of looks like a diamond here. You like things a certain way, not terribly anxious, and this can impact your mood.
- [82:34]
Elizabeth Smart
Does everyone have a diamond pattern? Because I feel like, to some degrees, everyone experiences some kind of trauma in their life.
- [82:43]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah, but not everybody has a diamond. A lot of people have the diamond, but you didn't get out of my family without some trauma. So I think the most important thing, after listening to you coordination exercises and some simple supplements and whatever you're doing, it's working because you're awesome.
- [83:08]
Elizabeth Smart
That's it for me. Like coordination exercises and supplements.
- [83:12]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So my impression of you post traumatic growth. I mean, I think you're awesome. You're doing great things in the world. If you get any more of those attacks, I want to know about it.
- [83:25]
Elizabeth Smart
Okay.
- [83:26]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Because I'm really curious what those are. And you should send me your MRI so I can compare it to your SPECT scan. We can actually overlay them and analyze them together.
- [83:43]
Elizabeth Smart
Like, how do I go about getting.
- [83:45]
Dr. Daniel Amen
The brain does not all. You just have to ask the hospital.
- [83:48]
Elizabeth Smart
Okay.
- [83:50]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Say, please send my MRI on a disc to Dr. Raymond.
- [83:55]
Elizabeth Smart
Okay.
- [83:56]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And Natalie will give you our address. And you've never done emdr. I'm a huge fan. I've actually had two sessions today. I love it so much. But you're not symptomatic, so I don't think I would do that.
- [84:16]
Elizabeth Smart
Okay.
- [84:19]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah. But if there becomes a time when you start having symptoms, don't be shy and call me.
- [84:27]
Elizabeth Smart
Okay? Yeah.
- [84:29]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah. Coordination exercises, supplements, laps.
- [84:39]
Podcast Announcer
Are you excited to optimize your brain and help the brains of those you love? Do you want to prevent or treat memory problems, anxiety or depression? Do you want to be happier? That's why I created Amen University to take what I've learned over the last 45 years and help you have a better brain, a better mind and a better body. You can take courses like our 30 day happiness challenge, which was shown in research to increase happiness by 32% in just 30 days, or memory rescue, or overcoming anxiety, depression, trauma and grief or or healing add at home in 30 days and much more. We also have professional courses and courses for kids, including brain thrive by 25, which was found in independent research to decrease depression and improve self esteem. And as a special offer just for our listeners, you can save 20% on your next course. Visit amenuniversity.com and use the code podcast20.
- [86:03]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Thank you so much for listening. If this has made a difference in.
- [86:09]
Podcast Announcer
Your life or you have a great.
- [86:10]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Story, we would love to hear from you. You can DM us @doc Amen on Instagram.
- [86:20]
Podcast Announcer
We would love for you to subscribe to the podcast.
- [86:24]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Leave us a review. Become part of our change your brain everyday community.