Quieting the Suffering Pathways in Your Brain & Impact of Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) Scores

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Quieting the Suffering Pathways in Your Brain & Impact of Adverse Childhood Experience (ACE) Scores"

Podcast: Change Your Brain Every Day
Hosts: Dr. Daniel Amen & Tana Amen
Episode Date: December 8, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Dr. Daniel Amen and Tana Amen dive deep into the intertwined relationship between emotional trauma, chronic pain, and brain health. Through personal stories, clinical insights, and practical strategies, they explore how Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) can wire the brain for suffering — and how targeted interventions, both natural and pharmaceutical, can help quiet these pathways and catalyze healing. The episode spotlights the journey of their niece Amelie, illustrating hope and resilience in the face of debilitating pain syndromes rooted in trauma.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) and Chronic Pain

• Impact of High ACE Scores:

  • Tana shares personal and family ACE scores: "We mentioned in a previous episode, I have an ACE score of 8. My nieces both have a 9." (06:00)
  • High ACE scores signal early exposure to trauma, which can manifest as constant mental "chatter" and heightened pain sensitivity throughout life.
  • Dr. Amen: "If you get an ACE score of 9, it means someone's been arrested, someone has a mental health problem, someone has an addiction. There's physical emotional abuse, neglect, witnessing domestic violence." (03:20)

• Neuroscience of Trauma and Suffering Pathways:

  • Traumatic experiences light up the "suffering pathway" in the brain, increasing inflammation and risk for conditions like PTSD, chronic pain, and even suicide attempts.
  • Dr. Amen references their research: "Our 7,500 scan study on ACEs showed an increase in the medial pain suffering pathway, which then spikes inflammation." (08:15)

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2. Amelie's Story: From Trauma to Recovery

• Childhood Trauma and Chronic Pain:

  • Amelie, exposed to significant early trauma, developed chronic pain and eventually Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS): "She was starting to settle in ... and then someone came up behind her accidentally and kicked her and broke her foot ... It wasn't healing ... became a disaster ... turned into complex regional pain syndrome." (03:51-04:30)
  • CRPS symptoms described as severe: "Even taking a shower, it was like an explosion of needles ... She couldn't stand socks or bed sheets, everything just was just searing pain." (04:36-04:45)

• Psychological Toll and Hopelessness:

  • Watching a documentary on CRPS amplified feelings of hopelessness: "The documentary did not leave a lot of hope, and it was a very scary thing ... It just didn't leave you with a lot of hope." (05:08)
  • Dr. Amen describes this negative feedback loop: "The invasion of ANTs and negativity. I'll never get better. My life is doomed ... more social isolation, more muscle tension." (05:30)

• Turning Point and Integrated Interventions:

  • Multimodal approach: reading "The Way Out" (on pain), medication (Cymbalta), EMDR therapy for trauma, and physical therapy — "Psychosocial, spiritual, the whole relief loop we did with her." (07:19)
  • EMDR initially aggravated her symptoms as it resurfaced trauma, but ultimately facilitated progress: "Initially the EMDR made her worse ... But then it got better." (07:12)
  • Amelie’s remarkable recovery: "She goes around five miles today with a friend ... How something that often accelerates into a disaster was... [she healed]." (07:32-07:46)
  • Tana: "She's so happy now. She's doing a law magnet program in high school, lots of friends. It's fantastic. But it took over a year, like almost two years." (07:54-08:15)
  • Key insight: Persistent support, tailored interventions, and addressing both brain and body were critical to her healing.

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3. Brain-First Approach to Chronic Pain & Emotional Health

• Medication vs. Natural Alternatives:

  • Cymbalta (Duloxetine) is spotlighted for pain and mood: "Cymbalta is FDA approved for chronic pain. It increases serotonin... an inhibitory neurotransmitter. It calms things down." (09:35)
  • Not all medications fit all brains: Tana’s adverse reaction to Prozac underlines the importance of personalized treatment — "I wasn't depressed. I didn't feel much of anything, but I was dangerously impulsive ... this isn't me." (11:08-11:40)
  • Dr. Amen: "Which is why you have to scan people before you put them on medication. ... 85% of psychiatric drugs are prescribed by non-psychiatric physicians in seven-minute office visits ... they have no clue what your brain actually looks like." (12:40)

• Personalized Supplement and Medication Protocol:

  • Wellbutrin worked better for Tana’s brain type, with natural alternatives (SAMe, Saffron, TMG) proving effective for mood and pain: "Wellbutrin didn't help with the pain so much, but the SAMe actually helps with the pain." (13:17-14:01)
  • Saffron is highlighted for its robust evidence: "It has 28 randomized controlled trials for depression. But it also has trials showing it helps libido and sexual function... for premature ejaculation, they’re great. But I don’t want to ruin my patient’s sex life." (16:14-16:41)
  • Supplements with most evidence for pain: Curcumin, omega-3 fatty acids, magnesium, B vitamins, Boswellia (Frankincense), saffron. (15:18)

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4. The Role of Nutrition, Vitamin D, and Gut Health

• Vitamin D & Sunlight:

  • Dark-skinned individuals, or those living far from the equator, have a much greater risk of deficiency and associated brain/mood problems: "If you are African American or Indian ... you actually need five times the amount of sun to get ... because you’re blocking it..." (19:10-19:29)
  • Effects of low vitamin D: More prone to chronic pain, emotional problems, being overweight. Dr. Amen’s personal anecdote: "I remember when I first checked, my vitamin D level ... was 17. ... when I supplemented, my appetite went away." (19:29-20:18)

• Diet, Gut Health, and Probiotics:

  • Both hosts stress that gut health is foundational: "Everybody should take a probiotic because if your gut’s not healthy, nothing else is going to be healthy." (18:33)
  • Dr. Amen: "Everybody should take a multiple vitamin ... I like Neurobite+ so much, because it has really healthy doses of B6, B12, folate..." (17:33)

• Preview for Next Episode:

  • Focus on foods to eat/avoid for chronic pain and the role of specific diet principles in reducing suffering. (22:42)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the brain-pain-trauma link:
  • Dr. Amen (05:30): "When she first came in our lives, we scanned her and her suffering pathway [was] on fire from before, likely because of the trauma that she experienced."
• On hope through comprehensive care:
  • Tana (07:54): "For many people, they never heal from [CRPS]. ... The fact that she is running now, she's so happy now ... it's fantastic."
• On psychiatric medication prescription practices:
  • Dr. Amen (12:40): "Why are psychiatrists the only medical doctors who never look at the organ they treat? ... 85% of psychiatric drugs are prescribed by non-psychiatric physicians in seven-minute office visits."
• On personalized brain health solutions:
  • Tana (13:17): "The one antidepressant that did work for me ... was Wellbutrin ... Sammy actually helps with the pain. So it's interesting. ... There are drugs, but there's also natural things."
• On vitamin D for mental and physical health:
  • Dr. Amen (19:10): "A lot of people don't know that if you are African American or Indian ... you need five times the amount of sun ... you're blocking it."
• Amelie’s triumph:
  • Dr. Amen (07:46): "Blew me away. How something that often accelerates into a disaster was...” [cut: implied recovery]
  • Tana (21:10): "Amelie embraced doing the stretching exercises we had. Initially we had to push her ... That's what your parents are for. We're going to push you."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Amelie's Story Begins: 03:01
• Description of CRPS: 04:30-05:00
• Impact of ACE and Trauma on the Brain: 08:15
• Discussion on Cymbalta and Medications: 09:35
• Tana’s Personal Medication Story: 11:08-12:40
• Supplements & Natural Alternatives Breakdown: 15:18-18:33
• Vitamin D, Sunlight, and Pain: 19:10-20:18
• Amelie’s Recovery Process: 21:10
• Next Episode Teaser - Diet and Pain: 22:42

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Takeaways

• Chronic physical and emotional pain is often rooted in early life trauma, which can wire the brain's suffering circuits.
• Hope and healing are possible through personalized, comprehensive care — incorporating both medical and natural therapies, addressing the whole brain and body.
• Not all medications are right for every brain; brain imaging and symptom awareness are vital.
• Supplements like saffron, curcumin, omega-3s, and vitamin D are evidence-based options for supporting brain and pain health.
• Gut health, vitamin D levels, and individualized nutrition are critical for mental and physical well-being.
• Persistent support, love, and the right interventions can break cycles of suffering, even with daunting diagnoses.

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Transcript

[A]

When someone from the West Indies immigrates to the United Kingdom, they have a higher incidence of psychosis because they had lots of sun and now they have very little, which means the vitamin D levels plummet and they're more prone to chronic pain, to emotional problems, and more prone to be overweight. In this episode, Dr. Amen and Tana.

[B]

Discuss the varying effects of medication on.

[A]

Your brain health and how to find natural substitutes. Saffron is so interesting because it has 28 randomized controlled trials for depression. It helps libido and sexual function. All of the SSRIs decrease sexual function. They actually make it harder to have an orgasm. It's like, no, I don't want to ruin my patient's sex life. That's not a good thing. So if I can get a benefit without the problem, I like that.

[C]

Every day you are making your brain better or you are making it worse. Stay with us to learn how you can change your brain for the better.

[A]

Every day.

[C]

Your brain is your most valuable asset. It controls everything from your focus and.

[A]

Memory to your mood and energy.

[C]

That's why I created Brain MD to give you science backed supplements that support your brain so you can feel and.

[A]

Perform your best every day.

[C]

If you haven't tried them yet, go to brainmd.com and use the code PODCAST20 for 20% off. Because when your brain works better, you work better.

[B]

Welcome back to Change youe Brain. Every Day we have been talking about Change youe Brain, Change youe Pain. I actually really love this book. I think it's one of your best, maybe because it's personal to me with pain. But I think so many people suffer with pain and with chronic debilitating pain. So I think it's a really, really important book. And one of the things I think that is so important that we've been talking about is the effect of emotional trauma on pain. And trauma is like one of those things if you've grown up with it. We mentioned in a previous episode, I have an ACE score or Adverse Childhood experience score of 8. My nieces both have a 9. We ended up taking care of them and they moved in with us early on in their lives. Trauma is one of those things. When you grow up with early childhood trauma, it's this constant chatter in the back of your head. But I feel like we think we have to accept it and accept that noise all the time. But no, we can yell at it. We can, you know, shout back at it. And I think that's a really important thing. We have to Learn is that we don't need to just take it. Right. So I know you want to talk about Amelie. I know her story is in the book, and it's a really important one because it's heart wrenching.

[A]

So Amelie is one of our nieces who actually had chronic pain when she was little. It was her elbow, it was her wrist, it was her constantly, her knee. And she grew up in.

Crazy home. Right.

[B]

There was a lot of. There was a lot of stress for sure.

[A]

Where. Yeah, if you get an ace score of 9, it means someone's been arrested, someone has a mental health problem, someone has an addiction. There's physical emotional abuse, neglect, witnessing domestic violence. When she came to live with us, she was anxious and. But she was awesome at karate. Do you remember?

[B]

So good. She was. So naturally they loved her there because she was. Started competing right away. She to this crazy flexibility.

[A]

So she had great flexibility. She had an amazing kick. And she was starting to settle in. And then she's running down the soccer field. Her foot sort of found a hole and it flexed back. And then someone came up behind her accidentally and kicked her and broke her foot. And she was in a boot.

It wasn't healing. And then.

It became a disaster.

[B]

Yeah. It turned into a nightmare.

[A]

It turned into something called complex regional pain syndrome.

[B]

I had never heard of that.

[A]

Even taking a shower, it was like an explosion of needles.

[B]

Yeah. She said like needles that she couldn't.

[A]

To even have a bed sheet.

[B]

No. She couldn't stand socks or bed sheets. Like, it was this constant just pain. Everything just was just searing pain, no matter what touched her. And I'm like, what is crps? Like, I'm a nurse and I had never heard of it. And I saw a documentary on it.

[A]

Complex regional pain syndrome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when I saw the documentary diagnosed, she then watched.

[B]

Yeah. So we were. Maya, it was. It was an accident. We were watching some documentary and I didn't know that's what it was about. And I was like, oh, we should not be watching, watching this, because it was so scary. The documentary did not leave a lot of hope, and it was a very scary thing. And I'm like, that's what CRPS is. And then I even felt hopeless. And that was the bad part was it just didn't leave you with a lot of hope.

[A]

And when she first came in our lives, we scanned her and her suffering pathway on fire from before, likely because of the trauma that she experienced. So the injury leading to complex regional pain syndrome, which is a heightened sense of pain. The documentary which then goes to hopelessness. It's like, what if I'm like her? The invasion of ants and negativity. I'll never get better. My life is doomed to. Then more social isolation, more muscle tension. The harmful habits for her were more staying away.

[B]

Yeah, Isolation.

[A]

Hiding in her room was the hopelessness. And it just got into this loop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But she got out. And we actually read a book together that I liked on pain called the Way out, where she realized that if she embraced the negativity, the pain was going to be worse. I decided to give her Cymbalta, which is an antidepressant that helps with pain. And it was very helpful.

[B]

And she did emdr.

[A]

And she did emdr, got rid of the rapes. And initially the EMDR made her worse.

[B]

It did because it opened up that past trauma. But then it got better. But she also did physical therapy. We kind of came at it from every angle.

[A]

Psychosocial, spiritual, the whole relief loop we did with her. And then in the kitchen, actually writing the public television special for Change youe Mindset.

[B]

But explain. It was like over a year later.

[A]

I'm writing the public television special and she goes around five miles today with a friend and I'm like, what did you say? I was like, completely.

[B]

It was a shock.

[A]

Blew me away. How something that often accelerates into a disaster was.

[B]

No, for many people. There is. For many people, they never heal from it. It actually gets significantly worse, spreads to other parts. And the fact that she is running now, she's so happy now. She's doing a law Met Law magnet program in high school. She's like, you know, she's got lots of friends, she's very social. It's fantastic. But it took over a year, like almost two years.

[A]

I think they increase chronic pain risk as we've been talking about. Actually it increases the risk of suicide attempts 12 fold. And our 7500 scan study on ACEs showed an increase in the medial pain suffering pathway, which then spikes inflammation. More likely to have ptsd.

And with homily frequent illnesses, anxiety. But we were able to buffer her with love and tools. And that all by itself significantly cuts her risk.

[C]

What if the key to overcoming your pain isn't just in your body, but in your brain? My new book, Change youe Brain, Change youe Pain, offers strategies I've used with thousands of patients to break free from physical and emotional pain and reclaim focus, energy and peace. Healing is possible. And it starts with your brain. Pre order my new book now and receive receive special bonus gifts at Change your brain. Changeyourpainbook.com.

[A]

Let'S just talk about the supplements and the medications that help with chronic pain and maybe. Well, why do they help? And so if we start with medication, Cymbalta is FDA approved for chronic pain. It increases serotonin. What serotonin does. Serotonin is actually an inhibitory neurotransmitter. It calms things down, which is not good for everybody. Right. When you got put on Prozac, it was a disaster. That was not.

[B]

And even 5 HTP for me, I feel like I'm stoned. It's not a good thing, not a good look.

[A]

Take a little break and talk about that. You were young, you had gone through thyroid cancer, and they depleted your thyroid.

[B]

As a way back then. It's how they treated you. It's how they. Before they would give you the radiation treatment, they took you off of thyroid for six weeks or eight weeks, whatever. @ the time, that was the protocol. And then they gave you the radiation treatment. They don't have to do that anymore. But back then, that's what they did. And no one sort of explained to me that I wasn't going to die, but I was going to want to die. And that it was really awful. And I didn't see that coming because I was a super active, very fit, worked out every day kind of person like to run. And all of a sudden I couldn't climb a flight of stairs and I was so tired and I got really depressed. Not to mention everything in my life changed. I had thyroid cancer and dropped out of school. And, you know, lots of stuff was happening. And when I got depressed, rather than explaining to me the situation with my thyroid, and it's like, oh, let's hold on for a couple more weeks. They put me on Prozac, and the next thing I know, I wasn't depressed. I didn't feel much of anything, but I was dangerously impulsive and just. I wasn't myself. I was normally a very anxious person. And I didn't get into trouble at all growing up because I was so anxious. So now all of a sudden, I don't care. Like, I just don't care. And it's like, you have an idea, you want to do something crazy. Sure, I'm your girl. And it could have been a disaster. I mean, it really could have been. But somewhere in the back of my mind I was like, this isn't normal. This isn't me. Thank God I had that still, that voice in the back of my head going, I don't think this is supposed to be normal for me. So I took myself off of it eventually, but it could have been a disaster for.

[A]

Me. Well, and I remember when I scanned you the first time 20 years.

[B]

Ago, one of the first things you said is, you know, you have really sleepy frontal lobes and probably a drug like Prozac would be really bad for you. You should probably never take something like that. And my jaw, like, hit the floor. I'm like, what? Why? Because I. You didn't know that. You didn't know that they had put me on it and it almost ruined my life. And I was like, what? Tell me more about that. Because it explained everything. As soon as you said that, it explained everything you said because it will drop your frontal lobes more and then you will be impulsive and risk taking and not have executive function. And I was like, oh, there you.

[A]

Go. Which is why you have to scan people before you put them on medication. And you know, people who are listening know I talk about this a lot. Why are psychiatrists the only medical doctors who never look at the organ they treat? And psychiatrists only prescribe 15% of the psychiatric drugs in the United States. So 85% of psychiatric drugs are prescribed by non psychiatric physicians in seven minute office visits. And they have no clue what your brain actually looks.

[B]

Like. Can I, can I finish, Can I finish this, though? Because I want people to sort of understand. So the one, the one antidepressant that did work for me when I needed it was Wellbutrin. So I did take Wellbutrin for a while, and then when I didn't want to take that anymore, you're the one that suggested way back that Sammy would work. Sammy. And now I add to that Saffron and something called TMG or Betaine. Yeah. So I take those three together. But what's interesting, the difference is Wellbutrin didn't help with the pain so much, but the Sammy actually helps with the pain. So it's interesting. So there are, there are drugs. If you're one of those people who. That doesn't work for. There's not like there's nothing, but there's also natural.

[A]

Things. So I think the, the point for you is you got the wrong medicine because nobody looked. And then once we looked, it's like, well, Wellbutrin would be a better choice for you. And the natural alternative to a more stimulating antidepressant like Wellbutrin is Sammy and TMG or Sammy and Betaine.

[B]

Right. And like 5 HP, like, I think I mentioned before, 5 HTP gives me that same foggy feeling that and.

[A]

5 HTP raises serotonin, right? Like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft.

[B]

Celexo. But the anxious girls in our family take five HTP and it's like magic for.

[A]

Them. It's great because they have busy brains, right? And it's so important to target the treatment to your brain and for medication. Cymbalta or Duloxetine increases both serotonin and norepinephrine. So it's sort of balances the emotional part of your brain and helps with pain. Gabapentin or Neurontin and Lyrica.

Both help calm these suffering circuits and have been found to be helpful for pain, as have tricyclic antidepressants, particularly Elavil. So many of our patients, when they come to go, I don't want medicine. What are the natural alternatives? And so the ones that have the most evidence are curcumin and omega 3 fatty acids. But add to that, that is also helpful. Magnesium potension, B vitamins for things like neuropathy. Boswellia is another one. Frankincense can be really helpful. And I mentioned saffron. I think Saffron is so interesting because it has 28 randomized controlled trials for depression. But it also has trials showing it helps libido and sexual function, which is why I. And you know me, but it's why I got so interested in it, because all of the SSRIs decrease sexual function, actually make it harder to have an orgasm. For premature ejaculation, they're great.

But it's like, no, I don't want to ruin my patient's sex life. That's not a good thing. And so if I can get a benefit without the problem, I like that. And then there are five studies for ADD on Saffron, five studies for Alzheimer's disease, actually compared it to Aricep or Donezepam, and I'm like, okay, I think I'll take it. Mood memory sucks. I think I'll take it. But then there are also studies with fibromyalgia. And, you know, what it tends to do is calm down the emotional circuits. In my scans, what we see with fibromyalgia, the thalamus, so that feeling pathway in the brain is way too busy. And.

So that's how I think of supplements. I think everybody should take a multiple vitamin just to. And that's why I like Neurobite plus so much, because it has really healthy doses of B6B12 folate, especially for people who have an abnormal MTHFR.

[B]

Gene.

[A]

Yeah. Has 2,000 units of vitamin D and it's just loaded with great things for your brain. I think everybody should take an omega 3 fatty acid. If you have chronic physical or emotional pain, a,000-2,000mg balance between EPA and DHA of omega 3 fatty acids. And it's interesting, more EPA has been found to be helpful for depression. And add more DHA has been found to be more helpful for anxiety and.

[B]

Memory. Well, and everybody should take a probiotic because if your gut's not healthy, nothing else is going to be healthy. So I mean, everyone needs a.

[A]

Probiotic. And then along with that, know your vitamin D.

[B]

Level. And almost everybody needs Additional vitamin.

[A]

D. 70% of the population is low. Why the dermatologist won. They made you afraid of.

[B]

This. But there's also a lot of things. If your gut's not healthy, you're not going to absorb vitamin D. Right. If you don't, if your thyroid's off, you're not going to absorb vitamin D. The same. If you have dark skin, you're not going to absorb. There's so many things that, that are the reasons people need extra vitamin D. So this is very.

[A]

Important. A lot of people don't know that if you are African American or Indian or whatever and you have dark skin, you actually need five times the amount of sun to get a. Because you're blocking it as someone from northern.

[B]

Europe.

[A]

Right. For example. And when someone from the West Indies, for example, immigrates to the United Kingdom, they have a higher incidence of psychosis because they had lots of sun and now they have very little, which means the vitamin D levels plummet and they're more prone to chronic pain, more prone to emotional problems, and more prone to be overweight. And I remember when I first checked, my vitamin D level normal is between 30 and 100. Mine was 17. And it's like, why? It's because I work during the day and I'm not out in the sun. And so. And I found when I supplemented, my appetite went.

[B]

Away.

[A]

Yeah. Like chronically fighting, being hungry all.

[B]

The time, I get sick less, I'm more focused, I have more.

[A]

Energy.

So vitamin D is very important. And you know, the take home message from Amelie's story is even with.

[B]

Severe chronic disease, because CRPS is wicked and scary. I remember when we first like really began to understand what it was. I'm like, oh, no. Like this might be like a lifelong chronic thing. And I think all of us, because of what we do and being just who we are and the family we are, we're like, no, we're not okay with this. Like, let's do everything we can. But it was really scary. It's a really scary. To get a diagnosis like that and feel like you're not sure where this is.

[A]

Going. Yeah. And Amelie embraced doing the stretching exercises we.

[B]

Had. Yeah. Initially, we had to push her. We were like, we're like, okay, that's what your parents are for. We're going to push.

[A]

You. That's why God gave you parents, right?

[C]

Absolutely. Every thought, every decision, every success.

[A]

Is created by your.

[C]

Brain. And the one thing I've learned from looking at over 250,000 brain scans over the last 30 years is that you are not stuck with the brain you have. You can make it better, and I can prove it. This is why I created brain fit life 5.0 to help you assess your brain and then help you optimize it by knowing your brain type and giving you access to the tools you need to have a better brain and a better life. It includes a 30 day happiness challenge, brain and mental health trackers, hypnosis, audios, brain enhancing music, and tools to conquer stress and anxiety. You can feel better, think sharper and live happier. Go to the App Store and download brain fit life 5.0.

[A]

Today.

So when we come back, we are going to talk about food and chronic pain. We already talked about aspartame, but we're going to talk about things to eat and things not to eat. Actually, in Change youe Brain, Change youe Pain, there's a whole diet. It's based on our diet principles, but we're going to talk about how important getting your food right is to helping the pain move out of your body. You can pre order the book now, but do it soon if you do. We have four free gifts for you. 30 day. Change your brain, Change your pain course.

We also have hypnosis, audios, the Emotional Freedom Journal, and one thing you're not going to want to miss, which is brain curcumin. Actually, something I take every day. Go to change your brainchangeyourpainbook.com.

And we would just love if you leave us comments, questions, reviews, subscribe to the podcast to change your brain every day. You can do that.