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Change Your Brain Every Day
Todd Herman: How to Become the Hero Inside You
00:56:19
What if the key to becoming your best self… is already inside you—waiting to be activated? In this inspiring episode, Dr. Daniel Amen and Tana Amen talk with performance coach and bestselling author Todd Herman about the proven mental strategies...
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- [00:00]
Todd Herman
Joseph Campbell, who wrote Power of Myth and he created the Hero's Journey model. He was my source for my second alter ego when I started my business. He has a very famous quote that most people repost about follow your bliss. Follow your bliss is not the full quote. The actual quote is follow your blisters because in your blisters you'll find your bliss.
- [00:23]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Oh, I like that.
- [00:25]
Todd Herman
Wow. So follow your pain because in your pain you'll find your recover.
- [00:34]
Tana Amen
Every day you are making your brain better or you are making it worse. Stay with us to learn how you can change your brain for the better every day. Are you excited to optimize your brain and help the brains of those you love? Do you want to prevent or treat memory problems, anxiety or depression? Do you want to be happier? That's why I created Amen University to take what I've learned over the last 45 years and help you have a better brain, a better mind and a better body. You can take courses like our 30 day happiness challenge, which was shown in research to increase happiness by 32% in just 30 days, or memory Rescue, or overcoming Anxiety, depression, trauma and grief, or healing Add at home in 30 days and much more. We also have professional courses and courses for kids, including brain thrive by 25, which was found in independent research to decrease depression and improve self esteem. And as a special offer just for our listeners, you can save 20% on your next course. Visit amenuniversity.com and use the code PODCAST20 today we have someone on the show whose work has changed the lives of Olympic athletes, Super bowl champions, and top CEOs. And mine. And it can change yours too. Todd Herman is the brilliant mind behind the Alter Ego Effect, a powerful framework built on decades of performance, performance psychology. He teaches us how to tap into the highest versions of ourselves by borrowing a strategy used by elite performers throughout history, from Beyonce's Sasha Fierce to Kobe Bryant's Black Mamba. At its core, the Alter Ego Effect is about building a bridge from who you are to who you need to be when it matters most. And 10 and I were watching CNN's documentary on Kobe Bryant.
- [03:11]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [03:12]
Tana Amen
And he. So I had season tickets to the Lakers for 20 years and loved Kobe Bryant. Like every year. Kobe was there, I was there. And when I heard in the documentary about the Black Mamba and then they mentioned you and they mentioned your book, I'm like, okay, I have to read this book. And so I downloaded it, ordered it, and I'm like, this be so helpful to my patients because I'VE been blessed to see some of the world's greatest people, from Miley Cyrus to Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, and they often want me to help them with their mental game. Yeah. And I'm like, I need a framework. And this framework that we're going to talk about works. And so when I. I'm like, I rarely, like, go. I have to have somebody on the podcast. And I told Tana about it and.
- [04:23]
Todd Herman
Well, here I'm very honored.
- [04:25]
Tana Amen
We are excited. So let's just start by you telling your story because you actually played sports.
- [04:37]
Todd Herman
Yeah. I mean, it's not going to be the same origin story as, say, Kobe Bryant. So let's just couch that right away. Yeah. No, I was. I grew up on a big farm and ranch in Alberta, Canada, and long. A long way away from where we're sitting right now, like Los Angeles or where I ended up moving to New York City. But sports was just my great escape to be around other people and not have to go do chores on the farm. And I had a knack for a few different things. And I managed to get a couple of college football scholarships, not because I'm a physical specimen, but because I had some speed and quickness, mostly because I was always running away from my two older brothers and. But it's actually where the alter ego concept was, was born as well. I had a lot of ambitions. I wanted to be the first Canadian to win the Heisman Trophy. I wanted to be someone who had a profile on NFL Films one day because of my amazing career in the National Football League. And neither of those two things happened. But there's a. There's a kind of a lesson. And what I found in this concept of the alter ego that started to reveal itself as I got into the work that I did on doing mental game and peak performance, coaching and training with athletes and teams, which is. Even though I was put in a smaller capsule, like I'm not 6 foot 4 and 245 pounds, my ambitions were big. And that in. In that kind of conflict internally is where there's an opportunity for amazing creation. I found, because the ambition of the human is there, but there might be some sort of limitation. And point is, I built an alter ego for myself, and it was the composite of two of my football heroes at the time. Walter Payton and Ronnie Lott were both hall of Famers and a tribe of five Native American warriors. And I borrowed a big part of each of them to step into a certain character when I went onto that field so that it wasn't Just me that you were coming up against. It was me and seven of my buddies and, you know, and. And we can walk through my whole visualization process. And, you know, that what I did to get into that, which I've, you know, taught tens of thousands of times to other athletes. But, yeah, so, yeah, I played sports at a pretty good level, but nowhere near as.
- [06:58]
Tana Amen
So when did you get interested in mental performance coaching? How did that happen?
- [07:05]
Todd Herman
When I got kicked out of a volleyball game when I was 14 for punching a guy through the net. My.
- [07:11]
Tana Amen
My.
- [07:11]
Todd Herman
My coach and one of.
- [07:12]
Tana Amen
My very first.
- [07:13]
Todd Herman
My. One of my coaches and my very first mentor, Mr. Henderson, after he disciplined me for getting kicked out of a volley. No one fights in volleyball, but a guy kept on jumping up, and he would try and flick his foot out to kick. Kick me in the crotch when he would go up for a spike. And I warned him once, and he didn't listen. And so I grabbed him through the net and I hit him. And so as a part of my recovery to get back onto the team, I had to read a book on leadership. And it was not a very good book. I couldn't tell you what it was. But in it, the guy talked about mental performance stuff. So I was like, oh, what's this? I felt like just. There's this, like, little doorway that I walked through. And so I just started consuming more and more stuff at that. I mean, this is the late 80s. There wasn't really a lot of work out there on mental performance, but that's what toppled me down that kind of rabbit hole, so to speak. And I became really good at implementing these things because of my own desire and ambition to reach the goals that I had. And then later on, I was good at teaching it to younger people after I got done playing. And one mom one day said to me, hey, would you mind mentoring my son? And I said, yeah, sure. And she's like, okay, Todd, how much? And this is 1997. And I said, how about $75 for three sessions? And I was, like, choking in my throat because I was like, there's no way I'm worth $75 for three sessions. And she's like, great. And that was my price for two and a half years. And so what I learned is when you're really cheap, you get a lot of reps, and it's very easy to get clients. So I wasn't making a lot of money, but I was doing things that I loved. Talking to young people about the mental game and supporting them in their you know, ambitions and, you know, then it took off into a really big performance.
- [09:01]
Tana Amen
Company, and the price went up.
- [09:03]
Todd Herman
And the price has gone up.
- [09:04]
Tana Amen
Yeah, this price went.
- [09:05]
Todd Herman
Just a price angle. Yes. So funny.
- [09:10]
Tana Amen
So what do you think are the most important things? You know, from my perspective, it's. Is your brain healthy? And so Canadian. Alicia Newman, Olympic pole vaulter.
- [09:24]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [09:25]
Tana Amen
She came to see me August 2021. She had bad head injury in April that year, went to Tokyo, completely failed, and got drunk on the way home from the Olympics. And she's like, I need to see somebody. And so followed me. Yeah, she and I fell in love with each other, and I mentored her. Tana and I actually went to Paris and watched her win the bronze medal. So cool. And it's like, okay, we have to repair your brain from the head injury. And then I had her wear continuous glucose monitor because she'd get bored and sad during the middle of a me, and I'm like, oh, I bet your blood sugar's low. Blood sugar go really well.
- [10:21]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [10:22]
Tana Amen
So we did all sort of the brain healthy stuff, and just through what I know as a psychiatrist, we worked on her brain, her mind. But you have such a beautiful formula. So talk about it.
- [10:40]
Todd Herman
Before I answer that, can I ask you, because when you were just unpacking that story, you got emotional about being in Paris to watch her win the bronze medal. What is it about that that pulls you into that, like, emotional response like that?
- [10:53]
Tana Amen
Well, I love her so much, and to be part of such a great accomplishment. So she's the first Canadian woman pole vaulter to win a medal, and it was just such a special time.
- [11:11]
Todd Herman
Yeah. This is what I love about sports is I. I am the worst movie critic. Like, if anyone asks me what movie to go and see, don't ask me, because I tell you everything's in my top three. And I say that only because there's so much emotion and drama in sport, like being behind the scenes as well, helping people go and, you know, work through these difficult parts of the journey of trying to pursue these really sometimes impossible goals or improbable goals, of standing on a podium or hoisting a Stanley cup above your head or insert the name of whatever. It's. It's so, so rewarding to be a part of that and see just what they go through each day. But going back to the framework or the question that you had asked, which I think was, what makes it work, is that.
- [12:03]
Tana Amen
Well, walk us through the process a little bit.
- [12:06]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [12:07]
Tana Amen
And I can tell you I Have my own. That is Galileo. I am Galileo's psychiatrist because he created the world's most powerful telescope at the time and looked at the stars, and it changed everything. And they put him on house arrest for it. I started looking at the brain 35 years ago, and it changed everything, and I got no end of grief for it. So if I'm his shrink. Yeah, I can handle anything.
- [12:39]
Todd Herman
Yeah. It's actually one of the hallmarks of typically, the best clients that have come my way is they have a bit of a chip on their shoulder from, like, a psychological makeup. Yeah. It's like when I worked with Kobe, because I don't even know if they didn't really. They said it sort of in the documentary. But I'm the one who built the Black moment with Kobe in 2003. But the process is. Well, the. The root of the word alter ego comes from Cicero, who's kind of known as one of the greatest Roman statesmen and philosophers, and he coined it in a letter to a friend when this friend had reached out to him in 44 B.C. asking him, like, hey, do you got any, like, secrets on how to live a good life? Because you've kind of crushed it. And I'm paraphrasing.
- [13:22]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right, right.
- [13:23]
Todd Herman
And so he unpacked a bunch of different things, but he talked about how there's this other eye or trusted friend within, called the alter ego. And it's helped me navigate all of the different pursuits that I've had. Being a statesman, you know, being a philosopher, being a business person and all these different things. And. And that's actually, at its core, that's really what an alter ego is. It's the other I, or trusted friend within, to help, you know, people who are trying to transform and make change happen in some area of their life, really leverage your creative imagination. You know, we all know how important it is to give someone a model or a picture of what it is you're trying to go towards. Right. Sort of. Gonna say something?
- [14:10]
Dr. Daniel Amen
No, I'm just curious. This makes so much sense. I'm just curious about something because in. In, like, knowing, like, the black mamba and some of the alter egos that you've helped people create.
- [14:20]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [14:21]
Dr. Daniel Amen
You are very specific and intentional about what that alter ego is. Yeah, I know. For, like, for me, it's sort of an innate process where I think of what would so and so do in this situation. I'll take that on. But it's not necessarily me creating another person. So is how important is it that you actually Create that.
- [14:38]
Todd Herman
It's. Here's what I tell people all the time, because I am. The one thing I don't like about maybe the industry that I was sort of put inside of is that people come out on stage and they posture to people that this is the only way that you can be successful. The way that I like to language is if you're someone who's trying to pursue difficult things or trying to like, lead a purposeful life that's, you know, going to be rewarding and fulfilling for you. The best of the best that I know. They have a lot of really powerful tools around their tool belt and alter ego because it uses identity as a method of transforming and changing with a lot less friction that other people have to go through as they try to just put new habits and routines onto an existing identity that just isn't built for this new thing that they're trying to pursue. So I tell people, like, an alter ego is, is a really powerful tool. Pull it out when you, when you need it. But even that question of, you know, what would Dr. Amen do? Or what would Beyonce do? Or insert the name of whoever of.
- [15:44]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Whatever situation you're in, that's using an.
- [15:46]
Todd Herman
Element of the alter ego process.
- [15:48]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Okay.
- [15:48]
Todd Herman
Do you have to use the whole part of it? No. Even in my book, you know what it's like writing books. I fought with my publisher on chapter number four because I've said, like, this is a very creative process. Like, yes, I have a step by step system that we go through. But do you need to go through it in that step by step process? No, you don't. So what I say at the beginning of chapter number four is this is a choose your own adventure book. If you're interested in going and reading chapter 13 on how to name your alter ego, go right ahead. If you want to go learn about, you know, how to unpack the, the invisible strings that are kind of holding you back. Go read chapter six, but bounce around. But the way that I wrote it is I would reference different chapters so that when you're, as you're reading, you're like, oh, now I'm going to go and read, you know, how to find my superpowers for this particular alter ego. So no, what you're talking about is a part of the beautiful process of someone reinventing themselves.
- [16:42]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So it's taking on an identity, but it's. But in this case, you're actually creating one that is your own personal.
- [16:47]
Todd Herman
Yeah. Like, as I, as I discovered in the work that I was doing, that some of my best athletes, they would say things like, I've got a Persona that I step into. I've got a character, I've got an alter ego. I've got a secret identity there. All these different words. This is about five and a half years into my career. I was like, wait a sec, this is an actual.
- [17:04]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So let's use this.
- [17:05]
Todd Herman
This is an actual tool. So then I went back and started interviewing my past clients and my current ones. I'm like, hey, what's your process? Why did you. Why did you create this? And you know, there was an origin story as to why they did it. And then I had a. It's kind of started with a seven step process, and then it kind of codified into five steps. And the five steps are one. Always choose or develop an alter ego in the context of a very specific role or environment that it lives in. So going on stage or, you know, me as a CEO or me as a mom, like, whatever role, pick that. That's where it is. Because there's no one. You. There's no one identity. There's no. In any of us. There isn't.
- [17:46]
Tana Amen
And then you keep it in that.
- [17:48]
Todd Herman
And then we keep it.
- [17:49]
Tana Amen
Black Mambo lived on the court. Be good as a dad.
- [17:51]
Todd Herman
No, no.
- [17:52]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right, right.
- [17:52]
Todd Herman
And we talked about that.
- [17:55]
Tana Amen
A husband. Yeah, but it'd be great on a court.
- [17:57]
Todd Herman
Great on a court. Custom built and especially custom built for him. Because I've got a lot of people who know that I built the Black Mamba. And they're like, no, I want a black mamba too. And I'm like, I need to find out more about you. Because the Black Mamba worked because of a very specific situation that Kobe was going through. Right. Which was the. The trial in Colorado. That's when we got introduced. And he was. When he came to me, said, I felt like I was losing my edge. And I said, no, you're not losing your edge. You're going through an ego death. All these things that you appreciated as, you know, the type of practice you have. And he was like, wait, what do you mean? And he could just see, like he just settled kind of physiologically into this idea. And I said, yeah, no, the Kobe Bryant that has been in the league for the last seven years, if you try to take that guy into the next phase of your career, you're just going to live in a purgatory because he does not exist anymore.
- [18:53]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So that's really interesting.
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Tana Amen
What do you mean by that?
- [18:55]
Todd Herman
Well, he was very much living through an Innocent archetype. You know, he, he was Michael Jordan's little buddy coming to league, came in at 18. Even his public Persona, like this guy can't do anything wrong. Look at his family and like he's just so clean cut and all that. And if he tried to take this innocent archetype going forward, it would have just, it wouldn't have worked because a, the public wouldn't have responded to it. The media wasn't going to respond to it. So there was an opportunity for a new identity. And as he is such a creative person, he got all of this very, very quickly.
- [19:33]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So, so that's really interesting. I have a quite because I love actually athletic performance type coaching and I've done a lot of it myself. Do you feel like sometimes that whatever they come in with does have to die? That whatever that Persona is they're coming in with that's not working for them on the court or on the field needs to die and they have to take something else on.
- [19:55]
Todd Herman
Sometimes it just depends on something. Sometimes just like any product in your house or sometimes it's outlived its usefulness. So it got you through a certain phase. But does it really need to be the version of you going forward in the next phase of, you know, your development or something?
- [20:14]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And the reason I asked that is because I noticed that what was holding me back a lot when I was, when I was getting ready to test for a black belt, I was finding myself getting really anxious. I'm like I've been training for years. Why am I so anxious about this? My, my internal self talk was not conducive to me doing a good job during this test that I knew was going to be hard. I didn't even catch it until I went through coaching.
- [20:34]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [20:35]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Is where I caught that I was saying things like oh, I'm the token middle aged mom or oh, I'm. Do you know what I mean? And all of a sud. He's like, well, I wouldn't do well either if I walked on, walked on the mat with that thought. So we killed that. And so we. Then we took on a different Persona.
- [20:48]
Todd Herman
And even the language of that you just said. And so we killed that. Yeah, there's this great line and have you ever seen the, the movie on Elton John called Rocket Man? The whole thing is just a great advertisement for alter egos. For me it's, it's so good. But there's a scene where it was, he was still, I think calling himself Reggie John at the time and he was sitting in this back room with this, you know, veteran musician, this black guy was kind of giving him some wisdom who was over traveling through the UK at the time. And he said, sometimes you got to kill the person you were born to be to become the person you want to be. And I say that language like it's so powerful because for me, kill is also rooted in the word decision. And decision in Latin comes from deciduous, which means to cut, to cut away. And that's the power of using this methodology with people is no, this alter ego is built just for that field. And then it can create all these other things that we know are powerful for human beings. You can commit to that, then you can be intentional with it. And then we use in the process totems, artifacts, a uniform, something that you can build a ritual around that allows you to now more fully step into that thing and allow it to come alive. So just going back, I can give people the, the, the steps from the book. Step one is, like I said, pick the role or the environment that you want this identity to live inside of. Step two is if you're already trying to make change happen, whether it's fitness wise or whether it's being a better parent, then what are the things that are getting in the way? Like, what's getting in the way of you showing up there? Is it some of your behaviors? Is it avoidance? Is it that I'm too meek? You know, I don't speak up. Like, depending on what your alter ego or this identity is going to be built for, then the flip of that is, okay, well then what do you want? How do you want to show up? And then who or what already has the traits, the attributes, the characteristics that you would, you would love to bring into that identity. And that's where all of a sudden your source of inspiration starts to come in, right? And, and your kind of alter ego starts to be born. Now it's like rising up out of the, you know, the gobbledygoo of our own creative imagination. And, and then we start to try to now bring it into, for me, bring it into the physical world so much. What I think people get wrong with the mental game is like the practitioners out there is they try to just get you to sort it all out between the six inches of your ears. No, I am a big fan of using the environment and the physical world as triggers for you, as reminders. So whether it's having a ring and you put it on and you're now imbuing yourself with the characteristics and traits of your of your grandmother who was always so sweet with you. And you're going to bring that energy when you walk into the home at the end of a long business day so that you can be, you know, the type of mom or dad that you really want to be for your kids. And. And then this step five of the process is now we got to practice it. We got it. We got to make it happen. Like, this isn't just, you know, some magic potion. It's, you know, pixie dust that we sprinkle on people. I've seen people transform in the moment. Like, they get the idea. And some of them just needed almost like someone else to come along and put the sword on each shoulder and go, no, you could, like, use this. This isn't being weird. It's my favorite thing that I've done with this book is the thousands of people that have reached out and said, like, on my Instagram, DMs Hip Hop Superstars, or gangster, like, gangster rap type. Like, guys who don't actually. There's a genre of music that I am not always not privy to, but I am 100% privy to it now because the book has gone viral in a few different spaces, one of them being rap and gangster rap and the number of gangster rappers that have reached out to my DMs and saying, I've never put my face in my music videos because it was this protective shield that I used in order to get this creative energy out of me because of this extremely horrific place that I came from as a kid. And. But I made myself. I judged myself because I thought, this is, you know, I'm playing make believe and this is the wrong thing to do. I'm gonna have a psychosis or something like that. And your book has given me 15 years of therapy because you've normalized it. And I'm like, yeah, because we played with this stuff as kids, you know, when we're jumping off the sofa as Batman or Wonder Woman.
- [25:31]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Well, and that's what I was just thinking without knowing this. Like, there's some of it that I've intuitively. That I've. I know other people are doing too 100% instinctively or intuitively doing. Maybe they just don't. They'd benefit from the process or they'd benefit from understanding. Oh, no. Give it a name. Yeah, you know, like, I don't know that I ever gave mine a name. Well, now I'm going to give it a name. This is Wick or something. I don't know. But anyways, it's just to. Because now it becomes John Wick.
- [25:55]
Todd Herman
Are you. Are you. Yeah, I get it.
- [25:57]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So I called it.
- [25:58]
Tana Amen
There's a new movie.
- [26:00]
Todd Herman
It is coming out. Yeah.
- [26:01]
Dr. Daniel Amen
But I did the same thing with. For me, it was like when I put the black belt on, it's like, that's my thing. And that's. I would always. So then even if I spoke on stage, I'm visualizing that black belt every time.
- [26:10]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [26:10]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So that's. That symbolic, you know, tying the knot.
- [26:13]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [26:13]
Tana Amen
So one question.
- [26:15]
Todd Herman
So just one.
- [26:16]
Tana Amen
I have so many.
- [26:16]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So many. I know.
- [26:18]
Todd Herman
Make sure there's more.
- [26:18]
Tana Amen
With Alicia, and she had some bad public things happen. She was dating an NFL player and turned to domestic violence. And. And that became public and lots of shame. I'm. We had this discussion, do you jump higher when you're mad at somebody, or do you jump higher when you're grateful? And, you know, with my work on positive psychology, I wanted her to jump higher when she was grateful.
- [26:53]
Todd Herman
I know.
- [26:54]
Tana Amen
But then the scientist in me said, let's do some tournaments where you really focused on gratitude and others where you're just really pissed off. And it turned out. So we worked on her unconscious, that during one of the sessions, she's. She got injured and she kept thinking, I'm going to get hurt. I'm going to get hurt. I do a treatment called emdr. It's a psychological treatment that deals with trauma. And in one of our sessions, she imagined these 12 minions going, Ah, we thought we were helping you. And we realized now we were hurting you by making you doubt yourself. And so our visualizations. The minions would actually. So she would see the haters in the crowd. Just meditation. She'd see the haters and they would explode. And the minions would go get the energy from the fire and bring it back so she could jump higher.
- [28:01]
Todd Herman
Love that.
- [28:03]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So funny.
- [28:03]
Todd Herman
It's. It's so powerful. Yeah. What you get to. That's the. I would love if everything about the positive psychology movement and world were gonna work 100 of the time, but it just doesn't.
- [28:16]
Tana Amen
It doesn't.
- [28:17]
Todd Herman
It doesn't. And. And this is the. The way that it.
- [28:20]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Kind of more individual.
- [28:21]
Todd Herman
It's individual. And the way that I look at the emotions is they all have their place. Like, if you're always trying to repel against, or you think that it's bad that you're feeling rage and anger, then it will find a way. It will rule you. But if you say. And like, oh, I can take rage and I can take anger and I can wield it and I can use it. I've got a golfer on the PGA Tour for the last 13 years who has used rage and anger as his mechanism to complete around. There is nothing in any book on golf that would tell you that you're supposed to be angry and rageful when you're out there. Because everyone is trying to get most golfers to be meditative.
- [29:02]
Dr. Daniel Amen
But don't you think it can be a great outlet? It's like a great release. Like, that's for me what martial arts was like this amazing release for that rage and anger and.
- [29:10]
Todd Herman
Or it's a focuser. Can really focus some people. And there's just one. This, this one individual. It's just how he's built. Yeah, he's built to be able to handle that type of energy, but he was, he was. Had internal conflict. Conflict with it because he went through two of the biggest name and names in sports, psych and golf who were like, no, we gotta get this outta. You gotta get this out of you. And then finally, just out of frustration, he stopped working with them. And another friend of his kind of introduced him to me and I was like, no, like, this is. You're. You're good at this. There's just. Sometimes it's like just the reframe for someone. It's like, no, like, it's okay. And you can use this. And you might be actually one of the few people who's built to use this. Who knows why. I don't know why. You're just built for it. And.
- [29:59]
Tana Amen
Well, and a good coach is coaching to them to that rather than coaching to their friend.
- [30:06]
Todd Herman
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:07]
Tana Amen
That makes.
- [30:07]
Todd Herman
Yeah, no, exactly.
- [30:08]
Tana Amen
And so that's why with Alicia, she jumped higher when she was mad at somebody.
- [30:13]
Todd Herman
Yeah. Well, getting back to like, what I was saying before about the space that maybe you and I can both be operating in is sometimes people can be evangelical with their process. That's why I like to. You know, it maybe doesn't sell as many books if I said, you have to use this and it's the only thing. But, you know, I come from farm and ranch values from my dad. And it's just something that my parents wouldn't say. So I'm like, no, it's a tool.
- [30:37]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah.
- [30:37]
Todd Herman
And use it when you. When you want. I just know that when you operate at the identity level, it's just. You can move a lot. Help. Help a lot faster.
- [30:45]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Well, I know, like, does it. I know for me, like, initially, I think I thought about being mad at Someone. But eventually it was no longer about being mad at anyone. It was just about using that same type of energy all the time.
- [30:56]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [30:57]
Dr. Daniel Amen
So it became like, oh, that's the energy that actually works for me.
- [31:00]
Todd Herman
Or you're mad at the. You're being mad at a philosophy. You can mad at an idea. Right? Yeah.
- [31:05]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And that kind of energy.
- [31:06]
Tana Amen
People use this at home. And I recommend the book. I thought the Alter Ego effect was very helpful, and I immediately started using it with some of my patients. And I'll tell a little bit of the story because it just transformed.
- [31:25]
Todd Herman
So where can they use it? At home?
- [31:28]
Tana Amen
Yeah. So they can use it in sports, and they show up. In fact, our daughter's dating somebody we quite like. He played linebacker at Montana State, and I was telling him about it. He goes, as soon as I put on the helmet, I was somebody else.
- [31:42]
Todd Herman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [31:45]
Dr. Daniel Amen
He just automatically knew what we were talking about.
- [31:46]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [31:47]
Dr. Daniel Amen
For him, it was just innate.
- [31:48]
Todd Herman
The. The day that my book came out, you talked about Muhammad Ali. Day my book came out, I was out here in Los Angeles, and I partnered with Jay Shetty on the launch of the book and stuff, and he was a huge fan of it. And so we. He produced a bunch of the videos that we used for our kind of, like, campaign of, you know, letting everyone know about it. And so we did a live stream from his home in Los Angeles. And my wife and I were getting on the plane to come back, and lady comes in, sits next to us, puts my book down on her on the area between the seats, and it's my book. And I look up, and it's Layla Ali, Muhammad's daughter. Right. You know, And I said, oh, that looks like an interesting book. And she's like, I know. I just picked it up in the airport bookstore, because it's literally the day that it came out. And she's like, this is. This is. I think this is going to be about the same stuff that my dad would talk to us about, about when you step in that ring, you got to become somebody else. And then I reached across, because she was across the aisle. I said, hi, I'm Todd Herman. I'm the author of it. She's like, no way. So we spent the next five and a half hours.
- [32:59]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Oh, that's fun.
- [33:00]
Todd Herman
Talking about that book. But in it, that the question people have used this concept for. I can't even tell you how many different types of roles or, you know, places they want to transform. In the book, I talk about the lady who wanted to become A better cook, but she just never saw herself. She didn't have any, like, inspiration as a kid. So she took on Julia Child and she went out about an apron and annoyed her kids because she would talk like her when she would go and had fun with it. Which, which gets to like one of the core parts of it. Even though a lot of people have used this because of, like, difficult things like traumas or, you know, back difficult backgrounds, at the core of it, and what makes it so useful is there's a playfulness in it.
- [33:47]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Right.
- [33:48]
Todd Herman
Because in order for you to divorce yourself, if you. Order for you to divorce yourself from this concept of who you think you are.
- [33:54]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Oh, I think it's fun.
- [33:55]
Todd Herman
Yeah. So it's been used in a lot of areas. I'll tell you one story with myself when my oldest daughter, Sophie is just sitting off camera here, who's my middle daughter and almost 11, and she's got an older sister, a year older. When Molly was about to be born. You know, there's this new role I have as being a dad. And I had great role models when I grew up. My own parents are just world class parents. And I thought, okay, well, you know, who's this, who's this next version of me in that role going to look like? But I had just been, for 16 years, been a challenger personality type. I'm being, I'm working with really big egos. Kobe Bryant, Cristiano Ronaldo, Rafael Nadal, like big teams and then executives. And in order for me to make breakthroughs with them, I need to challenge them and break through some hard exteriors. So I built up this Persona of being a challenger with them. A lot of it born out of some of my mentors, but is that really all that I am? But I flex that muscle every single day, that identity for, you know, I work a lot. Worked a lot. So it's easy for me to believe that that's who I've become. But as we know that being a challenger is typically a terrible personality if you're a parent. Right. So I immediately, okay, well, who's going to be my next source of inspiration? And it was my own dad and Mr. Rogers.
- [35:20]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Oh, interesting.
- [35:21]
Todd Herman
No one would describe Mr. Rogers as being what, A challenger.
- [35:23]
Dr. Daniel Amen
A challenger, right.
- [35:24]
Todd Herman
And I grew up watching him. I had a lot of, you know, deep affinity emotionally. Both my dad, obviously, and then Mr. Rogers, which I always talk about is like, that's why I can't sell alter egos off of the shelf. It's got to be your source of inspiration. Who inspires you and who knows where that might come from? So, Mr. Rogers.
- [35:46]
Tana Amen
And it's really about intention.
- [35:47]
Todd Herman
Intention.
- [35:48]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That's really interesting.
- [35:49]
Tana Amen
Do I want to show up in this situation as opposed to how do other people.
- [35:55]
Todd Herman
That's right.
- [35:57]
Tana Amen
I should show up. So I have an NBA player who I dearly love, who I think is going to do the podcast, and he was known for not doing well in the playoffs and had a lot of. I call them ants. Automatic negative thoughts.
- [36:11]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [36:11]
Tana Amen
And extraordinarily talented. And as after I read your book, I'm like, so how do you want to show up?
- [36:22]
Todd Herman
Up?
- [36:23]
Tana Amen
And who did you look up to? And so I did some of the exercises in the book.
- [36:27]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [36:28]
Tana Amen
And when he was a kid, he watched Kobe Bryant all the time. And I watch all 82 of his games this year. And as I learned that, I'm like, you totally passed up those shots. Kobe would have never done that. Or your passing. When Kobe was always as, you know.
- [36:48]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [36:49]
Tana Amen
Shoot first shooter. Something sometimes when he shouldn't.
- [36:54]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [36:56]
Tana Amen
And the last half of the season, he's just a rock star.
- [37:02]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [37:03]
Tana Amen
But he shows up, is the Mamba disciple, because that's who he looked up to.
- [37:10]
Todd Herman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's. It's so fun with it. So then going to miss going back to, like, the whole Persona of being a parent, like a mom or a dad. Then I did, because this just walks people through the process then. So I. I chose my role being a dad. It was new. What don't I want? Well, I don't want to be the challenger with my kids. Now, does that mean that I'm going to be perfect all the time? Sophie will tell you, not a chance. But if it makes me 15 to 20% better, absolutely. Then that's going to be really valuable for my kids. Right. And so then I go, okay, well, now I have my. I know who it is. I want to try to model my. My own father and Mr. Rogers. I grew up watching him. So in preparation for this new role, I rewatched a bunch of episodes of Mr. Rogers. And, you know, when you watch him, you know, we're all like, there's the. The Superwoman pose or the Superman pose. You know, chest out, shoulders back and all that for. To display confidence. Well, the last thing you want to do for kids is to make yourself bigger. Everything around them is already big. So Mr. Rogers, anytime he was talking to someone, would always get down on his knee and he. And he'd put his, you know, elbows on his one knee. Why? Because it rolled his shoulders forward and made himself smaller so he's less intimidating. Got down to their level. These are all behavioral things that you can practice in this, you know, identity that you have. And at first it might seem strange for you, but there's a real reason why you're doing it. Because you want to bring new qualities out of you that are there. That's the beautiful part about the human experiences. They are there. You just don't leverage them every single day in the current ways that you show up in the world. So then there's the manner of speaking, dropping his tone. Right. And so the qualities that I wanted to be with my kids as a dad would be patient, kind, playful, fun, warm. Right. And now I have this model, and there's certain totems that I would wear around my kids in the very beginning to start to keep that reminder and ritual going. And. And I imagine Mr. Rogers and my own dad being there, like, just watching. And then anytime I would dishonor the way that they would show up, that totem would come off. It's a switch for me. And then after a while, it becomes just so much more natural for you.
- [39:37]
Dr. Daniel Amen
This is so interesting because I was a trauma nurse, I worked in a level 8 trauma unit, and I was a trauma ICU and neurosurgical ICU nurse. And that was all fine before I had a baby. So what you're saying, I have so many friends who are first responders, and this is a regular conversation we have, that once you have kids, it becomes very difficult to switch roles. It's that switching back and forth. And I could see where this would be so helpful because I remember it's like, really hard to go from being hard, charging, intense, able to handle all the, you know, the blood, the guts, the chaos, and then be warm and fuzzy. And then you've been warm and fuzzy for three days, and now you have to go back to being, like, super intense.
- [40:12]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [40:12]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And it's. It's a weird transition, and it has to happen instantly. And I ended up leaving that unit because I was like, it's too hard. How much easier would it be? Because I know many police officers, firefighters, soldiers, surgeons, ER, personnel that this is very difficult for them. If they had that talisman, if they had that. That Persona that they developed, how much easier would it be if they had one for each role that they could switch?
- [40:38]
Tana Amen
Yeah.
- [40:38]
Dr. Daniel Amen
You know?
- [40:38]
Todd Herman
Yeah. Yeah. We started doing. I did a bunch of work with. At Fort Bragg with army officers, and there was Green Berets and Delta Force that had come through and we ended up not being able to continue on with the research. But the whole basis and hypothesis of it is that we could minimize PTSD issues and trauma issues by building a super soldier identity where that, that person's entire context is. You know, this is what, this is what I'm built to go and do.
- [41:13]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That's amazing.
- [41:13]
Todd Herman
Then you can take off that identity and come back to the human that you really need to be in order to succeed in, you know, the other 90% of your. Your life.
- [41:25]
Tana Amen
Not bring the drill sergeant home.
- [41:27]
Todd Herman
That's right.
- [41:28]
Tana Amen
Because I was an army psychiatrist for seven years and too often people would bring their. Yeah, hard ass Persona from work and they'd bring it home and their kids wanted nothing to do with them. Yeah, because it's like, no, don't do that.
- [41:45]
Todd Herman
It's. One of the stories in my book is a general, so a colonel at, at Fort Bragg, he came up to me. So he asked me to come around outside the building that I just did the presentation inside of. And he broke down and he said, my. My wife has been sleeping in a different room for over a year and my kids want nothing to do with me. They were like 9 and maybe 11 at the time. Want nothing to do with me when I come home. And. And he said, because I. I don't know any. I don't know any. I don't know any way else to beat other than this thing. And I said, well, you're making it very difficult on yourself because. Let me guess, you go home with your fatigues on with your uniform on, right? And he said, yeah, I remember. I said, remember what I talked about in there about uniforms and totems and artifacts? What if we had a different uniform that you would. You. You can you. That uniform, the army, you can't wear it in the house. And if you do, then you've got to go immediately up to the bedroom and get changed into this new uniform. And. And so we built out this uniform and it was cargo shorts and not Abercrombie and Fitch, but a golf shirt from one of the major brands. I was just sort of his style. And he went out about five and five of them. And then we talked about like, look at how much work the military does, as in at encoding morals and ethics and code of conduct into what it means to put on this uniform. And look at all the legends that came before you. What are they building? Story, narrative. And I'm like, we can do the exact same thing for this other Part of you, your other sources of inspiration for who you can be as a dad with those kids. So that you can. When you're putting on that shirt, put pants first, shirt second. And as it comes over, as the V neck of it comes over your head, like, that's when. Like that's when the new. That's when dad's gonna be there. And what does he look like and what does he do? What are his behaviors? Like, so we built all that out and he sent me a lovely email about two months, maybe six weeks later saying, I can't tell you how transformative it's been. He. When I walk through the door, my kids run to me and greet me and my wife and I are sleeping in the same bedroom.
- [43:58]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That's amazing.
- [44:00]
Todd Herman
All because we're building more intentionality in the two most important roles of his life and is just. His other comment was, I'm not bringing work home with me. Like, I'm able to hang that guy up on the hangar where he belongs and sort of mentally take a break from that world. Yeah, that's just. That's. That's the gift.
- [44:20]
Tana Amen
So we should build our husband and wife alter egos.
- [44:25]
Dr. Daniel Amen
We should.
- [44:26]
Tana Amen
Although I'm married, am I going to.
- [44:27]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Be Scarlet or am I going to be.
- [44:32]
Todd Herman
Definitely follow up, Follow up. I can use another testimonial on the site.
- [44:40]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That's funny. I actually have one friend, the one friend of mine who was very successful this. Because we talk about this a lot. First responders talk about it a lot. Nurses talk about it a lot. Because it's a rough units of eat. And then come home and try and be, you know, that warm and fuzzy person. But he was actually really never had a sip of alcohol in his entire life. But he meditated a lot. He was very into performance and things like that. But he had a routine. And I'm like, I wish someone had told me that years ago. And it's exactly what you're talking about. He never walked in the house with his uniform on because he's like, he saw the worst of the worst if he was swat. So he saw the worst of the worst. And he's like, I'm not taking that home to Mike family. And so he was like, I take off my uniform in the garage and I go straight into the shower. And he's like, and when I wash that off, I'm washing off the day.
- [45:25]
Todd Herman
Yeah, that's it.
- [45:26]
Dr. Daniel Amen
We're done.
- [45:27]
Todd Herman
Powerful ritual. Powerful ritual. Yeah.
- [45:31]
Tana Amen
So how can people learn more about your work so they can get The Alter Ego effect. You actually read the book, so I think the audio is awesome.
- [45:42]
Todd Herman
Thank you. I'm. I'm dyslexic, so I actually memorized my book, so I did that. You.
- [45:47]
Tana Amen
You memorized your book?
- [45:49]
Todd Herman
So I did that entire recording. So it's seven. Seven. A little over seven hours long. I did it all in one recording day at the studio. And you know what it's like if you. If you've read all of your books as well, they typically book out four days for book. For reading a book of that size. And yeah, I did it from. From memory. Like, I would go through. And I would speed read through the next chapter, and then I would go back to the audio or to the mic and I would. I would do it.
- [46:15]
Tana Amen
So that's amazing.
- [46:16]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That's why.
- [46:17]
Todd Herman
Yeah. It's one of the best testimonials I get from people is like, thanks for. Thanks for reading your own book. Like, you can kind of.
- [46:23]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Yeah.
- [46:24]
Todd Herman
Get the emotion of the importance of a point when you're going through it. So. Yeah. So Alter EgoEffect.com is a place for, like, more resources for people. Like, you can download a guide on, like, other ways to help you name the thing or the different types of roles or circumstances or situations that you can build it for. Because if I added a lot of this stuff into the book, then it would sort of make it fatter than I wanted it to be. But the thing I'm most proud of, and Malcolm Gladwell helped me with this as well, because his editor at HarperCollins was my editor as well. And I got connected to him, and he said, you've done a really great job of putting your entire method in the book. Like, hey, it's great if people want to go and watch the multimedia course with it, but you don't need to, like, everything for you to go and use.
- [47:14]
Tana Amen
There is a course.
- [47:15]
Todd Herman
There is people. Yeah. @alterregofact.com they can get the course and they can watch me coach other people through the process as well.
- [47:21]
Dr. Daniel Amen
And submersion is sort of important when you're really trying to master something.
- [47:26]
Todd Herman
Yeah. Well, that's why it's great to hear that you downloaded it. So you gave me a Kindle purchase, so thank you. And then you bought the book as well. So in the secondary version. Thanks. Yeah.
- [47:39]
Tana Amen
And then I. But I mean, when. When I find a tool I like that I think will help my patients, you know, that's why I reached out to you.
- [47:50]
Todd Herman
You did.
- [47:50]
Tana Amen
And go, would you do our podcast and yeah, I just love helpful things and this is so helpful even for me. And like, oh, it's like Galileo. That's a lot. And it's like, yeah, I'm a lot.
- [48:07]
Todd Herman
So that's great.
- [48:08]
Dr. Daniel Amen
If I'm too much, go find less.
- [48:12]
Tana Amen
And do you have a coaching company where if people wanted to hire somebody you've trained or you.
- [48:19]
Todd Herman
Yeah, myself or anyone like other performance coach that we have and we come out and we do workshops and you know, I speak all around the world as well on the topic, you know, in front of, you know, different high performing groups, like people who are trying to aspire to be something, you know, bigger and better than what they might think their current story is and what's.
- [48:40]
Tana Amen
Next for you, what's exciting for you?
- [48:44]
Todd Herman
You know what, Like, I feel so fortunate that I fell into the alter ego world. I'm going to be like George Costanza and Jason Alexander for the rest of my life. I'm going to be always known as Mr. Alter Ego because I don't know if I'm going to discover a better idea that's just so useful. But yeah, Netflix is talking to me about a movie on Kobe Bryant's life. An actual fictional movie, but kind of, well, very much based on the storyline of his life. And here in la, actually during this time I'm going to talk to them about the casting for my role inside the like, who would play me as the character. So that's not something that I would ever have expected with my chosen career is maybe being involved in a movie. But yeah, I'm just excited about continuously having conversations like this and, you know, making new friends.
- [49:39]
Tana Amen
Well, I'm going to send you people because I love the work I do, but whatever I can do to help them be their best self.
- [49:48]
Todd Herman
And likewise, I've got, I've got a ton to send back your way.
- [49:52]
Tana Amen
Well, because if their brain's not right. Yeah, they won't be right.
- [49:57]
Todd Herman
Yeah. And that's the marriage of this too. Like this, this. I look at it as to break things down into a two circle Venn diagram. There's the science of things. And I always, when I came across something, tried to find a way of explaining it through science. But then there's just the art of life. And that magic middle is that's where someone's own personal peak performance sits is there's the, there's the science of just the fundamentals of what you need. There's disciplines, there's consistency, there's, you know, knowing your craft or knowing Your competencies, whatever it might be for your chosen thing. And then there's the art. And that's the way that you go about it. And most people are causing their own performance to suffer because they're not honoring the fact that, hey, rage and anger might be something that I could use. Like, that's the art part of it. And see the alter ego for me, always combine the two. Oh, no.
- [50:50]
Tana Amen
I have a new book coming out from Harper Collins in December called change your brain, change your pain. And I talk about, like John Cerno talked about that pain often comes from goodest people who have repressed rage. And in the emdr, I do, we often kill things.
- [51:14]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Tana Amen
It's like, so when you go back and you see that child who was molested or the child who was basically alone because mom was drinking too much, what emotions come up? How would you express them? Perhaps in a brutal way.
- [51:31]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [51:31]
Tana Amen
And it's so freeing for people to be able to get the rage, get in touch with the rage. Get it up and out is actually when I was working on the pain book. John Cerno has books about healing back pain or the mind body prescription. He talks about depressed rage. And I'm like, like, well, how do you get it out? And there's a form of psychotherapy called intensive short term dynamic psychotherapy, istdp. And it's a rage therapy.
- [52:03]
Todd Herman
Really.
- [52:03]
Tana Amen
And often your anxiety or your depression is because you're suppressing rage that you've had since childhood.
- [52:11]
Todd Herman
Yeah.
- [52:11]
Tana Amen
And getting in touch with it and getting it out.
- [52:14]
Todd Herman
Can I share with you one quote that also leads into your. I'm the pain. Joseph Campbell, who wrote the, you know, power of myth, and he created the hero's journey model. He was my source for my second alter ego when I started my business. And specifically his ability, his ability to, like, articulate such, like, deep and meaningful things in a way that you could understand and connect with. When he was. I saw him on Bill Moyer's PBS podcast when I was 11 years old in 1986, talking about mythology. And he has a very famous quote that most people repost about, Follow your bliss. Follow your bliss. So I was lucky enough to, as my career progressed because I used the hero's journey model in how I kind of try and map where someone might be and what tool or thing they might need next or the next obstacle they're going to overcome. And I was able to engage with the Joseph Campbell Foundation. Follow your bliss is not the full quote. The actual quote is follow your blisters. Because in Your blisters, you'll find your bliss.
- [53:21]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Oh, I like that.
- [53:22]
Tana Amen
Wow.
- [53:23]
Todd Herman
So follow your pain because in your pain you'll find your recovery.
- [53:28]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Wow, that's really good.
- [53:30]
Todd Herman
Isn't? I mean, that changes. I mean, I get chills every time I share it with people because I get the exact same reaction because what does that do? It resonates with your human experience. Right. Follow your bliss. It sounds like a great Instagram, you know, encouraging popsicle, bubble gum and cotton candy thing that's going to go viral. But that is not what he said. Follow your blisters because in your blisters you will find your bliss. Pick up hard things.
- [53:54]
Dr. Daniel Amen
Love that.
- [53:55]
Todd Herman
And you're going to find a new version of you and transform yourself along the way.
- [53:59]
Dr. Daniel Amen
I love that.
- [54:00]
Tana Amen
That's actually not my blister.
- [54:04]
Dr. Daniel Amen
That's actually really good. Yeah.
- [54:07]
Tana Amen
Well, thank you so much. This was so good and so helpful. I hope we have you on again.
- [54:13]
Todd Herman
And I'd love to.
- [54:14]
Tana Amen
I look forward to partnering with you with some interesting people. I already said to somebody, really thank you. That you will love. Thank you so much for watching. We are grateful for you. We're grateful to Todd Herman. You can learn more about him, pick up his book the Alter Ego Effect or go to alteregoffect.com every thought, every decision, every success is created by your brain. And the one thing I've learned from looking at over 250,000 brain scans over the last 30 years years is that you are not stuck with the brain you have. You can make it better. And I can prove it. This is why I created brain fit life 5.0 to help you assess your brain and then help you optimize it by knowing your brain type and giving you access to the tools you need to have better brain and a better life. It includes a 30 day happiness challenge, brain and mental health trackers, hypnosis, audios, brain enhancing music and tools to conquer stress and anxiety. You can feel better, think sharper and live happier. Go to the App store and download brain fit life 5.0 today. If you like this week's episode, please make sure to leave us a review on itunes or Spotify and follow me on Instagram or TikTok. Amen and tanayman.
- [56:12]
Todd Herman
Sa.