We jump on the World Cup band wagon to talk about what team support and our collective enthusiasm for it tells us about organisations, associational life and democracy.

Of course, there is plenty to chat about given all the political interference in these games - and we do talk about Trump and his sporting "knowledge" - but we focus on what we know, the analogies and lessons about strong and weak organisations and whether there are lessons for us all in how we make change.

For more on ChangeMakers check us out:

Via our Website - https://changemakerspodcast.org (where you can also sign up to our email list!)

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For more about Samuel:

Personal site: https://www.samuelmchu.com

The Campaign for Hong Kong: https://www.thecampaignforhongkong.org

Democracy in Flight: https://www.democracyinflight.org

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