A Hollywood Manager Explains the New Rules of Show Biz

Summary

Channels with Peter Kafka – Episode Summary

Episode Title: A Hollywood Manager Explains the New Rules of Show Biz
Host: Peter Kafka
Guest: Pete Micelli (CEO, Range Media Partners)
Release Date: June 17, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode of Channels, Peter Kafka sits down with Pete Micelli, CEO of Range Media Partners, to break down the transformed Hollywood landscape. They dig deep into how industry compensation is being reshaped by streaming, what’s happening to the middle class in entertainment, how technology and platforms like YouTube and AI are shifting opportunity (and risk), and what the new playbook is for talent, managers, and creators. Micelli, who represents A-list clients and has ties to both traditional studios and digital upstarts, offers a candid, insider’s view of the challenges and possibilities facing Hollywood in 2026.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hollywood’s Changing Compensation Models

• The “Old” System:

  • Studios used to produce lots of episodes (e.g., Hawaii Five-O) and monetize content over multiple “windows” (broadcast, cable, syndication, streaming) (07:00).
  • Long tail “back end” deals provided recurring income for talent.
  • Quote:
    “You’re taking episodes off a shelf and say TNT, you can run them at a subsequent date... the long tail of that cycle was highly profitable for talent...” – Pete Micelli [08:00]

• The “New” System (Streaming Era):

  • Fewer episodes per season; platforms (esp. Netflix) keep rights in perpetuity. No true back end or syndication.
  • To compensate, streamers shifted to big upfront payments and bonus structures but cut off long-term profits for most.
  • Quote:
    "The money is kind of the same or even better for you. And that kind of made sense." – Peter Kafka [10:07]
  • Huge stars still get paid, but middle/lower tiers are squeezed out.

• Impact on Talent:

  • Upfront “buyouts” for in-demand stars; lack of back end hurts journeymen actors, writers, and crew.
  • As consolidation and retrenchment grip the industry, fewer jobs and less stability for those not at the top.

2. Technology’s Role: Disruption & Opportunity

• Netflix as Prime Mover:

  • Micelli’s early work with Netflix shows (House of Cards, Orange Is The New Black) and the pivot from licensing to ownership shifted the industry paradigm (11:28).
  • Quote:
    "Wherever Hollywood changes, look to technology." – Pete Micelli [13:09]

• Cultural/Structural Shifts:

  • The content boom favored experimentation, but windowing is now squeezed and risk tolerance is down.
  • "We are in a bear market in film and TV, no question about it.” – Pete Micelli [17:47]

• How Managers Respond:

  • Range guides clients by scenario: direct-to-consumer? Streamer deals? Entrepreneurial ventures?
  • Solutions differ for top-tier vs. mid/lower-tier talent.

3. Talent as Brands & the “Dream Factory” Model

• Manager vs. Agent vs. Producer:

  • Range aims to partner with talent, not just as representatives but as business incubators: helping clients create, own, and invest in new opportunities (20:21).
  • "We need to be a dream factory in a world where there aren't these long tails, Hawaii 5O examples anymore." – Pete Micelli [20:21]

• Building Personal Empires:

  • Clients with large, loyal digital followings—especially YouTubers—can mobilize audiences (and thus dollars) across ventures.
  • Some want to stick to art, others embrace the multifaceted model of endorsements, merch, and business creation.

• Not for Everyone:

  • "It takes a thick skin to be an entrepreneur. …Most of them don’t work, is the crazy thing, right?" – Pete Micelli [23:41]

4. YouTube, Direct Distribution & Breakout Successes

• The YouTube Effect:

  • Recent box office hits (Obsessions, Backrooms, Iron Lung) driven by creators with massive YouTube followings [26:28].
  • Distribution and marketing power is democratized; social media outreach rivals traditional ads and billboards.
  • “The people that control distribution used to control the world... Now, no one controls distribution.” – Pete Micelli [27:56]

• Valuing Digital Reach:

  • A science now exists to calculate “conversion ratio” of large followings into sales [30:24].
  • Owning audiences enables unique deal structures, higher profit shares, and even self-financed production.

5. AI and the Next Disruption

• AI’s Mixed Blessing:
  • Potential to lower production costs and increase output, thus creating more opportunities for some (but automating out many traditional roles).
  • “It’s going to shift the job responsibilities in Hollywood. …The genie’s out of the bottle.” – Pete Micelli [38:40]
• No Going Back:
  • Some projects may market themselves as “AI-free,” akin to organic food, serving niche demands [40:13].
  • Ultimately, those who embrace and harness AI may create and profit more efficiently—but not without pain for many.

6. Range’s “Balanced Density” Strategy

• Selective Representation:

  • Range chooses to work closely with a “density” of exceptional talents, providing more holistic services rather than chasing sheer client volume [41:14].

• Navigating Complexity:

  • The era of “all or nothing” pilot season and predictable career ladders is gone; now, breaking in and staying in requires strategic, agile support.

7. The Google Partnership & Content Innovation

• Hundred Zeros and XPrize:
  • Range’s partnership with Google to incubate new forms of storytelling and run the world’s largest film competition emphasizing hopeful depictions of technology [46:09].
  • “Distribution is changing radically. What can we offer artists to do?” – Pete Micelli [48:44]

8. Industry Legalities, Consolidation, and the Need for Management

• Manager vs. Agent Battles:
  • Range’s founding amid agency consolidation and legal disputes—not particularly relevant to most creatives, but important for structuring deals and industry control [49:46].
• The Value of Expert Guidance:
  • “The world's fucking crazy. You need someone like us.” – Peter Kafka [52:16]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Platform Power:
  “Distribution is more fluid and democratic than we've ever seen.” – Pete Micelli [27:56]

• The Value Proposition:
  “The middle is getting squeezed, right? …The shifts are very real.” – Pete Micelli [17:51]

• On AI’s Inevitability:
  “We can't stop AI... If you come to that determination that it's not preventable, which I fundamentally believe, then you go, well, how do we advise our clients and partners to succeed in this environment?” – Pete Micelli [39:07]

• On YouTube’s Cultural Mainstreaming:
  “People are becoming more cognizant of what a great functioning tool YouTube is. ...People are spending more time on YouTube than anywhere else.” – Pete Micelli [33:16]

• Talent as Community Leaders:
  “If you're a talented person, you're a curator. Like, if you have community, you're a curator, you're a filter of quality. How do you use that in the future?” – Pete Micelli [20:56]

• On the New Complexity:
  “The level of complexity now… I would put it at 10x what it was in 2000.” – Pete Micelli [53:54]

---

Timestamps of Key Segments

• [03:39]—What Range Media Partners really does
• [06:25]—How compensation has shifted for top vs. mid/lower-tier talent (streaming’s impact)
• [13:09]—Technology as Hollywood’s driver of change
• [17:47]—Bear market in film/TV, shrinking “middle class”
• [20:21]—Turning talent into multidimensional brands/businesses
• [26:28]—The YouTube-fueled box office (Obsessions, Backrooms)
• [30:24]—Valuation of digital followings and dealmaking implications
• [33:48]—AI’s role in content creation (and job displacement)
• [41:14]—Range’s selective client model and how it differs from big agencies
• [46:09]—Range’s partnership with Google/YouTube and global film competition
• [49:46]—CAAs legal battles and why “management” vs. “agency” is more than semantics
• [52:16]—Why management’s needed more than ever

---

Summary Takeaway

This episode offers an incisive, on-the-ground view of how show business is being upended in 2026:

• Streaming and tech have permanently changed how (and how much) talent is paid.
• Massive shifts favor top-tier and digitally savvy creators, while the middle class of entertainment is vanishing.
• Management is no longer just about negotiating a deal—it’s about plotting a diverse, entrepreneurial strategy.
• AI and platforms like YouTube are radically democratizing creation and marketing—but also increasing risk and complexity.
• In this bewildering landscape, expertise, adaptability, and creative business models are the keys to survival and success.

If you want to understand who thrives—and who gets squeezed—in Hollywood’s new rules, this conversation is essential listening.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

With Fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. It solves up to 90% of queries for businesses, tops all the performance benchmarks in the G2 leaderboard, and it comes with a million dollar guarantee. Check it out at Fin AI how many third party vendors does your company use? 2200 thanks to AI, someone on your team probably added three more this week and your security lead has no idea. Traditional third party risk management can't keep. Vanta gives you continuous coverage across every vendor automatically so you actually know what's in your stack and what to do about it. AI on risk off vanta.com TPRM support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E Commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com.

[Peter Kafka]

From the Vox Media Podcast network. This is Channels with Peter Kafka. That's me. I'm also Chief Correspondent at Business Insider. Big deal this week between Fox and Roku. Fox is buying Roku for $22 billion. It might fundamentally change Fox's business. I don't know if it changes the streaming media business, but you can read what I think about all this over at Business Insider. Today on the podcast we are talking about how to get paid in Hollywood and why getting paid is harder for a lot of people. But not everyone these days. My guest is Pete Micelli who runs Range Media Partners, a high profile management company in la. He's out there negotiating deals for talent like Bradley Cooper, Tom Hardy and Halle Berry. He's been doing this kind of work forever. So he is a very good guy. To tell you how deals for in demand clients are and aren't changing and what that tells us about the movie and TV business as it goes through this post boom period of retrenchment and consolidation and job cuts. Here is the part where I tell you that Range is a management company and not a talent agency and that that distinction is legally important and that that distinction is in the middle of a long running dispute between Range and caa, the famous Hollywood talent Agency. That's not very interesting to me, which is why Micelli and I only discuss it for a second in our chat. What is interesting to me is what life looks like in Hollywood for the top of the food chain and what it looks like several layers down. And how lots of the ideas Micelli talks about in our chat, like turning talent into brands, doesn't really apply to a middle tier actor or writer. Certainly doesn't apply to a grip or art director. All the people who make Hollywood go below the line, as they say. Micelli is an optimist. Have to be if you're in his business and he thinks all this gets sorted out in the end. You take a listen, tell me what you think. Pete Micelli, welcome to Channels.

[Pete Micelli]

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Peter Kafka]

You are the CEO of Range Media Partners.

[Pete Micelli]

That's right.

[Peter Kafka]

How we described you has legal significance. But tell us in layperson terms what Range does.

[Pete Micelli]

We view ourselves as a cultural capital firm. And what we do is we do representation and film and TV and digital and music. It's in management and sports. It's an agency. And then we have a full production capability. We make movies and TV shows so scripted and non scripted. And so we have an entire apparatus in terms of making content as the world evolves, digital production. And then we have an investment platform that we look to launch businesses with our celebrity partners.

[Peter Kafka]

The core of the business is you guys representing talent in one way or another.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah. The core of the business is that I only push back because the connectivity is really important in how the world is changing.

[Peter Kafka]

Yeah. And we can talk about the pitch for your business and how you guys see the world. The reason I wanted to have you on is because we're constantly talking about how Hollywood is changing and what streamers have done to the business and how people have responded to that. And now it's a period of contraction. And I wanted to talk with someone who's actually in the middle of it, negotiating deals on behalf of clients. What does it look like to be in Hollywood in 2026? So maybe we start by just going back. So we should. We should back up Range. You guys started in 2020 during the pandemic. Prior to that, many of you had been at caa, other agencies.

[Pete Micelli]

Correct.

[Peter Kafka]

So you've been exposed to this business for a long time.

[Pete Micelli]

And then I had years and I left CA in 2018. I was the chief strategy officer at a studio called Entertainment One, which we successfully sold to Hasbro in January. The deal concluded January 6, 2020.

[Peter Kafka]

Those guys best known for owning Thomas the Tank Engine, Close.

[Pete Micelli]

Peppa Pig, Peppa Pig, Peppa Pig and PJ Mask, and a couple other things.

[Peter Kafka]

I was directionally correct.

[Pete Micelli]

You were directionally correct.

[Peter Kafka]

So from New York, covering this business, sort of focusing on both tech and media, the way I see your world was around 20. Netflix really gets into originals and basically kicks off this huge production boom.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, and I had a deep relationship with Ted Holland, Cindy Holland, and Ted Sarandos back then and helped to organize a lot of their first wave of shows. And so I was intimately involved in that.

[Peter Kafka]

And so we'll go back to that, but I just want to do the broad stuff first. So Netflix kicks off this huge boom in spending and content. And again, from the outside, it kind of looked like a bubble, and now it has retracted. Right. And there's consolidation among buyers. And the people who are still making stuff are saying, generally, we're gonna hold spending back. We're not gonna spend, spend, spend like we did. You hear lots of stories about talent that was getting tons of work a couple years ago. Not getting work so broadly. If you are a successful in demand talent, whether you're acting, directing, whatever, how does the world look different today in 2026 than it did in 2013?

[Pete Micelli]

Well, you know, the first thing is, I think if you're, as you talked about, kind of more established or higher, whatever those markers are to deem you as someone that the platforms are seeking, those people are doing really well in the front of upfront cash. What's changed dramatically over the life of production both movies is the long tail of the studio function largely was make something and license it to these different windows.

[Peter Kafka]

Sell it many times, sell it many

[Pete Micelli]

times, sell it many times over. And that created a enormous value of what we would call back ends, which was your ownership piece, your percentage of the profits that you own, you participated

[Peter Kafka]

in some way in the project's success.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, it was called modified adjusted gross receipts. And so the studio would deduct some overhead charges, they would deduct some distribution charges, and then the profits were partially yours as the talent.

[Peter Kafka]

And in television, there was syndication back end. But there are. These things work roughly similarly.

[Pete Micelli]

So you think the television model, how much that's radically changed since I've been in the business? So we, you know, I was, I had packaged up as a TV packaging agent a number of shows. Hawaii Five O is one of them. And you go, so Hawaii Five O comes on CBS. You're doing 22 episodes a year, and it's got a Great license fee. And then you sell it to tnt and TNT pays for a second window, right? An extraordinary amount of money for it. And this is no new work. This is, you're taking episodes off a shelf and say tnt, you can run them at a subsequent date and then after, TNT can go to syndication. After syndication, it could go to a streamer. After a streamer, it could go back to another basic cable. And you're just taking this great content of which you're making 22 to 24 episodes a year. So after five years, you have over 100 episodes. And so the long tail of that cycle was highly profitable for talent, remarkably profitable. And so then we went from the streaming model, which was instead of making 22 or maybe 24 episodes a year with a shorter term, meaning the amount of time it's exclusive to that platform where you can sell off. Now you're going to streaming platforms where maybe you're making eight or 10 a year or every 18 months now. And there's no desire really to sell off service.

[Peter Kafka]

Netflix or whoever says we are going to own these rights in perpetuity for a while or a very long time, and Instead of making 22 episodes, we'll make 10 or 13. And there's a lot of critiques about maybe they're canceling stuff too fast because we can get into those details. But, but because there's no back end, because there's, we're not going to syndicate this or if it's a movie because

[Pete Micelli]

our intent is not to sell off service. So we can't actually quantify long term value.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

But.

[Pete Micelli]

Well, what it's been moving towards in our experience, just on the representation side, is they've been giving these bonuses, these pickup bonuses, these, you're, you're now equating what the platform thinks is the long term value and there's these bonus structure to it.

[Peter Kafka]

So. So House of Cards was the name and Netflix is pretty clear about this. When they wanted to get into not just making their own originals, but sort of premium, they wanted to be going after hbo. They kind of said, we're gonna have to overpay everyone involved to get them to make a show for Netflix. And then for a while after that, they said, we're still gonna overpay everyone we're gonna pay. We know there's no back end. We know if you make a movie for us, there's not gonna be receipts for you to participate in. Same thing for tv. So we're gonna pay you upfront, will pay you a premium.

[Pete Micelli]

Correct. It has definitely been a premium upfront.

[Peter Kafka]

And so don't worry about the fact that you're not going to have this stream of income down the road. We're going to pay you all up front. The money is kind of the same or even better for you. And that kind of made sense. I'm sure there were people, I know there are people at the time saying, no, this is not going to be good in the long run. Were you concerned about how that model was shifting?

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah. When I first started getting into business with Netflix and House of Cards, then the second one was Hemlock Grove. And then the third show, Orange is the New Black.

[Peter Kafka]

Right.

[Pete Micelli]

It was Orange is the New Black. I was with Jen G. Cohen last night, the creator of it. We went to go see Book of Mormon and Josh Gad hi Genji. And. And then the fourth show was Sense8, which I helped put together. And then Narcos, and then we did our first comedy, F is for Family. So I was intimately involved in the beginning. It was. Netflix was just getting into it. They, they did not have the capital that they have today. It was the brilliance of Sarandos and Cindy. It was an all in bet. They needed to get into original content. You couldn't do original movies back then because then it would seem like a TV movie.

[Peter Kafka]

Yep.

[Pete Micelli]

So the, the path for the platform to really become what it is today was through original series content. And in those days, the deals were licensed deals. They weren't owned and they hadn't, they hadn't really kind of built the ecosystem.

[Peter Kafka]

Right. They didn't own House of Cards. It was a company called MRC that made it.

[Pete Micelli]

MRC did that. The second Hemlock Grove was owned by a company called Gaumont. Right. It was a studio that I had helped build and put together. Then the third one was Orange is New Black was LionsGate. Then the fourth one was Sense8 was this studio, Georgeville that we had put together. And then the fifth one was Narcos, which was also. Come On. So it was all independent studios in the beginning, and they were working off of a version of a broadcast network model where it was a license deal, but these places owned it. And then we got to the places when the license was coming up. Netflix bought the license, they bought the second window. But it created a lot of value for those creators. And now we move to a place where they, they harness technology in the very best way. I mean, it is. You went away from the guide. Remember we used to have a guide. We'd have to sit there and we'd have to wait for the whole thing to roll around and go, what's coming on at 9:30?

[Peter Kafka]

Just thinking about how for years. But also, like the Murdochs of the world was saying, whoever controls the TV Guide of the future is gonna be this dominant. And it's still. Today there's fights over whether Netflix is gonna be integrated in Apple tv. But it's also a world where no one is saying, I wish there was a TV Guide that I could consult.

[Pete Micelli]

No one's wishing that. And so the system of how you want it, when you want it was a revelation for us. And then for them to make that work, they needed to be in the subscription business. To be in the subscription business, you have to have exclusivity in things that aren't elsewhere, or else why are people gonna pay subscriptions? So their model is their model. We all leaned into their model and where we are today is a function of that. Wherever Hollywood changes, look to technology.

[Peter Kafka]

So a couple things. One, I mean, most of the businesses now sort of followed Netflix one way or the other in terms of how they do compensation. Right. It's also just because the world is different.

[Pete Micelli]

Every, almost every platform now is on a bonus structure for backend. Right?

[Peter Kafka]

So you're just sort of getting paid up front and then there's some kind

[Pete Micelli]

of success metric that you.

[Peter Kafka]

But it's not the same thing where you know you're going to get a check 10 years from now because your movie ran on some obscure television channel you've never heard of that. That world has ended. That hurts big stars, but also lots and lots of people who aren't huge stars and just had a recurring amount of money. There were people who were sort of saying, this is going to end badly for talent. This is going to not work out. And also, once the Netflix is the world sort of corner the market, they don't have to overpay anymore. Now. Now they can be much tougher in their negotiations. Have you seen that?

[Pete Micelli]

No, I disagree with that. I could not be more hopeful about what's coming. You just be a student of the business and know that technology always forces change. And if you are ignoring the technology always for. And you have your head in the sand of, oh, I wish it was the broadcast network system of, well, you're just gonna, you're gonna be, you're gonna be out of the business. Technology is allowing us to get more people more content when they want it, how they want it, and we are. It's definitely confusing to a lot of folks like I heard there was a great show. Wait, is it on Netflix? Is it on Amazon? Is it like, where is it? And now we have this. You know, part of the fundamental reason me and the partners, Jack and Rich and Dave and all these. We got together was like, we were acknowledging that AI and the social media platforms were going to change the world forever, and they were not going backwards. This was in 2020. I was like, oh, my God. AI is this is the potential is like nothing we've ever seen before.

[Peter Kafka]

Put a pin in AI for a second.

[Pete Micelli]

Pin, pin.

[Peter Kafka]

When Netflix temporarily won the Warner Brothers deal late last year, everyone's freaking out in Hollywood. And again from New York, I'm like, I don't get it. Isn't this the better acquirer for the bulk of people involved in this business than Paramount? And you can debate that. And what I kept getting told was everyone here still hates Netflix. They believe that Netflix has fucked their business. And they hold Netflix responsible for the fact that they have less work or their friend has less work or whatever it is. And that, from my perspective, seems really misguided, but also I can understand it. How do you. Do you, first of all, do you pick up that sentiment that people are still sort of angry at Netflix as a symbol?

[Pete Micelli]

I got inundated from people that, like Paramount getting Warner Brothers is end of days. I got inundated from people that Netflix getting Warner Brothers event end of days. And I was like, well, why don't you everybody focus on the reality?

[Peter Kafka]

Well, Paramount's pitch is, we're not changing anything. Don't worry. Netflix is changing everything.

[Pete Micelli]

But I just. I got. I kept saying to people, focus on the reality, which is Warner Brothers is not a sustainable business on their own anymore. They had amassed too much debt. They couldn't get out from underneath that debt. Zaslav did an amazing job getting the debt down. And, you know, he sold $31 a share. That was a pretty remarkable. Whatever the. Whatever the number is, ultimately. I mean, yeah, if.

[Peter Kafka]

If, If. If David Ellison and his father want to buy something from me, I'm willing to talk.

[Pete Micelli]

So.

[Peter Kafka]

Makes everyone look smart.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah. So you go, but that. But I got it on both sides. There was no question. There was factions on both sides. And then I just kept pushing back to people and say, but understand, why does Warner Brothers need to sell? The model's not working right? And so you have to look at that as a. Is it not Ellison versus Netflix is. Okay, what is about the model that's not working now? We have so many clients working At Netflix and Amazon, at these subscription services and they're getting paid a lot of money. Is it what it was? Potentially. If you had a. You know, I talked to one of the people that were running Universal in the early 2000s and they said to me, we couldn't lose money on a movie back then because we had a theater business and then we had DVDs and then we went to transactional video on demand. Then we would sell to hdmi.

[Peter Kafka]

Every time there was a new tech, it just meant there was more money for us. And when Netflix showed up, that was even better because we just sold them all our crap.

[Pete Micelli]

That's right. We have seven windows and then we get the movie back. We couldn't make movies fast enough and we were trying new things because it didn't. We knew we were in a break even game in the worst case scenario. And if we tried something new that was a revelation, we'd make a fortune. The windowing, it goes back to the windowing has all been squeezed. So you have to adjust.

[Peter Kafka]

So what is your answer to the talent who says what you're saying? All sounds right. All I know is I have a lot less work that I was doing better 10 years ago and now I don't know if I can live in la.

[Pete Micelli]

So for us we take an aggressive stance of, okay, here's the reality of the streaming business, here's the reality of the theater business, the independent business. And there's different clients that you advise on, different strategies based on how they can integrate into the reality of the moment. And there's no, I'm not going to get on this microphone and tell you, hey, I have the magic wand for everybody. Quite the opposite. We just take an aggressive stance of, well, what comes next? Is there a direct to consumer strategy that's going to come next where really talented people can get together and put their own piece of content out to the world. There'll be a lane for that. Is Netflix and Amazon and Apple, are these places really important to our ecosystem? Unbelievably important. There's no other bigger solution. Right now we are in a bear market in film and tv, no question about it. And so you're looking at these things and you're going, well, what we track from a pattern is like the high level people are still making incredible, incredible deals. The middle is getting squeezed, right? But now you see, look at the box office this weekend. It's so apropos for me to be here. What was the cost of obsession to make, they say reported like $2 million. So now you look at these things and you go, the shifts are very real. Understand how the technology is shifting. And you go, well, could AI now bring production costs down in a way that there's going to be more margin for artists again? Because when I go back to the Warner Brothers example, why can't Warner Brothers, the most, arguably tied for first most iconic library in the world, why can't they figure out a path forward without having to sell? And you go, well, the technology is changing so drastically, so where's the opportunity in it? And that's what we're just kind of, we're always focused on. Look at what the social platforms are doing, look at what YouTube is doing, is direct to consumer growing. Here's what the streamers are able to do for us now. So you gotta, you just have to be aware of the shifts.

[Peter Kafka]

And this was part of your pitch when you guys started Rain, right? Was we're not just gonna do. Get you a film or TV job and sort of manage that or deal that. And you know, the structure normally in Hollywood is everyone has a manager and an agent and a lawyer. You have that. We'll do some of that. Well, we're going to build things with you. You are going to own things that you're going to own things, whether it's connected to acting or maybe you're going to create a new line of whatever and build that. How did that thesis play out for you?

[Pete Micelli]

The thesis playing out really well for us. It's, you know, it's we, we not. We view range as kind of. I looked at it as like, what does a cultural capital firm do? We need to be a dream factory in a world where there aren't these long tails, Hawaii 5o examples anymore. How do you fill the gap? So we don't pound the table and say, oh, it's not what it was 10, 15 years ago. It's like, oh, and it's certainly changing faster than I've ever seen. I mean, we have so many clients that can get to 100 million people faster than a media company could. You're like, well, so the thesis is if you're a talented person, you're a curator. Like, if you have community, you're a curator, you're a filter of quality. How do you use that in the future? Right?

[Peter Kafka]

And so you have an audience that you've gotten on YouTube, wherever. Are there people who say, well, that sounds fine, but I don't actually want to sell them whatever. I want to make movies.

[Pete Micelli]

Lots of artists do that. And then there's some artists that are like, oh, you know, I love being in this position where people have an affinity to what I like and I like to point them to things that I really like. And if there's a good business in me doing it, at the same time, it's an essential shift. Right? Because what's happening is the data we see is people are trusting governments and corporations less and less every day. You know, that's not much of a revelation of a thought, but it's certainly, it's there and we see it. What they do trust more and more in the world where AI is like, is this video real? Is that real? What is that? They trust other human beings even more and more now.

[Peter Kafka]

So what is the challenge in doing a business like that? Because the idea of like, oh, this person is going to have multifaceted things and they're going to be a multi hyphenate and they're not just going to be a talent, they're also going to be a business person. And most of those stories generally don't pan out. Most people don't want to spend their time running a business. They don't have the capacity to run a business. And in the end, it turns out they were essentially just sort of getting money for endorsing a product with nothing wrong with that. It's just not a new. It's not a new paradigm.

[Pete Micelli]

Not a new paradigm? No, no, it's. It's a balance of those, like, you know, kind of three or four lanes, right? There's the. You, you get paid money to endorse something and what you try to push your talent partners is and endorse the things that you really believe in. You know, endorse the things that you really like. Because I think the audience feels it and they know it when it's like, why are you endorsing that? It's weird. And then you go, well, then there's the things of, can you own part of it? You know, can part of our job be. Instead of clamoring that the Hawaii 5.0 model is gone, can we say we're not replacing that back end thing? The technology has changed the game. Let's help you own things in other areas. And you're right, you know, it takes a thick skin to be an entrepreneur. It takes, you know, it's not like, hey, I want to launch a business, tell me how it goes. You got to really get into that thing and you got to really believe in it. Just today we launched a mobile game with Kenan Thompson and Kel. And it was like, you know, for a lot of artists, it's another outlet to be creative. And it's like, it exercises. So what you try to do is you have a company where we're optimistic about the future, we're experienced in all these different areas, and we're helping you dream up things that you go, oh, I'd always like to have a mobile game, but that feels like, how am I going to do that? You know? And so most of them don't work is the crazy thing, right? And so what you have, you have to build the right team that understands how to raise capital. You have to build the right team that can write a real business plan. You know, the thing in Hollywood was always like, people would have ideas like, I have an idea, I want to do this. But nobody really sat with them to say, well, let's write a business plan that will raise money. Because if you don't have that, you're not gonna. The business is not gonna happen unless you're funding it.

[Peter Kafka]

We'll be back with Pete Michelli. But first, a word from a sponsor.

[Pete Micelli]

Whoa. Okay, this one says you get a free phone if you switch.

[Peter Kafka]

Hey, this one also says you get a free phone if you switch.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, they all do one, huh? The T Mobile one says their customers

[Peter Kafka]

had the lowest wireless bills versus the other big guys over the past five years. And their latest experience. Plans have Netflix included, plus a year of dash pass by doordash.

[Pete Micelli]

Hang on, let me see that. Oh, yeah, we're switching.

[Peter Kafka]

That's what I'm talking about.

[Pete Micelli]

Do we clap now or AT T Mobile get savings that keep stacking up. That's value you can feel every day. And right now, bring your phone to T Mobile and we'll give you $400 when you switch.

[Peter Kafka]

Savings based on Harris X billing snapshots from Q3 2021 to Q4 2025 compared to average AT&T and Verizon bills. Comparison includes discounts, credits and optional charges. $400 with new account on qualifying line. Unlock Device credit ported 90 plus days with device and carrier and timely redemption required. Virtual MasterCard typically takes 14 weeks. No cash access and expires in 6 months. Card issued by Sunrise Banks and a member FDIC.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Visit t mobile.com support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com support for this show comes from Fetch pet insurance.

[Pete Micelli]

Do you have a pet?

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Every six seconds a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill of over $1,000. And it's almost always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch pet insurance comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance. Get paid back up to 90% of vet bills. You can use any vet in the US and Canada. All vets are in network. Go to fetchpet.comsave right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.comsave.

[Peter Kafka]

And we're back. You mentioned the idea that these people have huge reach. That seems very relevant to the other thing you mentioned which was the success of obsessions and back rooms.

[Pete Micelli]

Yep.

[Peter Kafka]

And before the that iron lung. These are all movies made by people who had meaningful audiences on YouTube and in at least some of those cases brought their audience from YouTube to the theaters. Made a gazillion dollars. A couple different questions for you, but let's start with what does it mean for you guys if we move into a world where success at the box office or somewhere else is sort of based on an audience that talent has sort of accumulated on their own. How does that change the discussions you have with the people who might pay them or distribute them?

[Pete Micelli]

Well, it's extraordinary. So I always looked at content as a four part problem. And so we've. Our company is attacking all four. So it's like you got to have talented people to make great things. One. Right. Most important, two, you need to have money to get it to happen. You need financing. Right. Three, you need distribution. And four, you need awareness, creation. Right. Let the audience know that something they might be interested is there and how to find it. Four part problem. It's always kind of been that part. The people that control distribution used to control the world. It was just like if you wanted to get in somebody's home or you wanted to get a movie, you needed to control the theaters or the broadcast.

[Peter Kafka]

There were dozens people who sort of determined whether that could happen.

[Pete Micelli]

Everything the world we live in today, no one controls distribution. It is like you have these really powerful sophisticated streaming services that have the capital to Put out the highest end content at volume. But the social media platforms prove to us every day you can reach hundreds of millions of people on your own if you have something compelling and you know how to get to them. So you're just, you're looking at these four factors and you're going, well, this is a remarkable time that, you know, distribution is more fluid and democratic than we've ever seen. And you go, so what is awareness creation? And so awareness creation is how do you aggregate community online to know something is there that they may want to transact on? And so we have a division called awareness Creation that does exactly that. So we just kind of have this expertise of building community so we can point people to things. And so, and we've done that on a bunch of movies that we've made. And it's, and it's been quite remarkable. And so what you're. But the key now is we used to have like billboards and commercials that used to be a revelation for us, right? Like, oh, this is an important movie. I saw three commercials. Right? And when you're living in Los Angeles or anywhere, you know, you pull up to a red light and used to look up at the billboards and go, what's important now? You pull up to the red light and you grab your phone. Everybody grabs their phone, they look down. And so this digital marketing strategy becomes even more and more important as the world moves forward.

[Peter Kafka]

But I mean, the distribution and awareness are both on the same platform, right? If you're a markiplier and you mean

[Pete Micelli]

in terms of the algorithm pointing you from, oh, you watch this.

[Peter Kafka]

So go to the show, you build your audience and you're, I mean, most people who were not hanging out on YouTube, most people who were not teenagers were unaware of obsessions or backrooms right prior to it popping out. And then it just surprised the hell out of her. Same thing with Iron Lung. They had built this audience on this platform. People have been tracking this forever, like, when, when are people going to migrate from digital to big time to TV or movies? And they tried a lot of them and most of them didn't work. And I just sort of believe like, oh, we've, we've learned that those audiences don't move. But now it looks like they can move. You can move. You can bring a YouTube fan to a theater and they'll buy a ticket to see you.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah.

[Peter Kafka]

So how does that change the equation of, of, of how you structure a deal? Well, someone can say, I can plausibly bring, yeah, 20 million people or a percentage of them to the theater, to a TV show?

[Pete Micelli]

Well, there's an entire science to, oh, you have 100 million followers, but how many of them are actually real? What's your conversion ratio? All these. There's so much nuance to that. But yeah, one of the things we really focus on is how do you ascribe value to somebody that has 20 million followers? And you're like, oh, we made a piece of content for this and they're gonna be speaking to 20 million people that have already deemed this person important to them and they will listen to them. What's the value in that? In launching an obsession? You know, and so there's a couple systems that we've implemented to quantify that value. And when you're talking about making a movie for, you know, the small dollars comparatively, you look at that and say, well, that should return itself in the form of some real ownership and some real upside in the box office once you get to profits.

[Peter Kafka]

Do you think what we saw this spring, three movies from three YouTubers all doing huge business, is that the new paradigm or is that just kind of stars aligning so you happen to have those three at the same time? Should we expect more YouTube people to. Sure, we should have huge movies.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, we should. You know, the technology that exists today, it's just allowing so many younger people to be creators much earlier in their career. And so the tools that are available for them to kind of put a story together, it's not the new paradigm in terms, it'll just be part of the paradigm. You know, we'll still want the big tentpole. You know, I went to go see Mandalorian with my kids this weekend. I know Favreau well. It was like such a great movie, so fun. And then, you know, I saw Pressure with some friends. It was another great movie. And then you look at the data that we're seeing is this. This notion of the doom scrolling is a real thing and people want to get out of the house and not be lost two hours flipping through their social platforms. And so we see an uptick in experiential and live events. And we see an uptick if technology brings costs down where there's more offerings of movie. We believe people are going to go to the theaters because it's a fun thing to do.

[Peter Kafka]

Do you think there's something specific happening now that is either allowing, again, just keep bringing up YouTubers making movies to sort of make that flip that wasn't there five or ten years ago?

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, the technology is allowing you to tell stories and be able to show things for a lot less money.

[Peter Kafka]

But they could. Most of the stuff they could have made for, not much more than they're making for now. The cameras get cheaper and better, but it's still the same.

[Pete Micelli]

I would give you that if your suggestion is, hey, over the last five years, more people are becoming acutely aware of, you know, when Netflix goes and argues why they should get Warner Brothers, it was because YouTube is kicking everybody's ass. And YouTube's growing faster than anybody can keep up with.

[Peter Kafka]

Yeah, you always have to have a bigger competitor to you to make your case.

[Pete Micelli]

We're not number one, we're number two, and they're number one, and we need this to keep up with them. And I do think. I think your point is that people are becoming more cognizant of what a great functioning tool YouTube is. And so people are spending more time on YouTube than anywhere else. It's starting to normalize in terms of contemporary culture, and those could absolutely be factors. I do maintain that the technology and the tools we've gotten from AI in the last year or two have helped storytellers, like, demonstrate what's possible.

[Peter Kafka]

Let's get to AI in one second. Do you. I'm assuming that this is. In fact, I'm sure it's happening now, but you tell me that after the success of those three movies we've been talking about that everyone has been told, go find me the next YouTuber making a movie. And you, on the one hand, say, that's a stupid idea. We're all just following the flock. On the other hand, kind of seems like a good idea to scour YouTube. So how are you guys thinking about that? Are you giving it more attention than you would have six months ago or a year ago?

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, we have a couple divisions. Look, we represent, from a management perspective, more influencers than any other company. We're really well versed on the social platforms. We do a lot. We have a big relationship with Google and YouTube. We created a company with them called Hundred Zeros. So we're in deep with them. And yes, we have a system in which we are tracking to where we see, hey, as someone like, has it gone from 500 views to 10,000 views? Why did that happen? Because once it gets to 100 million views, everybody in the world knows about it. So the answer is yes. And we have a couple systems because the dynamic nature of our platform is we wanted to be in all of these businesses because of how much everything is shifting. So we wanted to have an expertise on the social platforms. We wanted to have an expertise on how talent is telling stories there and how people are moving community there because it was gonna help every part of our business. So the answer is, yes, we're fully doing it. And we've made a bunch of horror movies. We made Long Legs that was by any stretch of low budget. You know, Oz Perkins is an incredible. He's not. He's an incredible director. And there'll be a Long Legs too. And then you. And we made the Monkey. And these are movies that we're making for. For relatively speaking, a lot less money than the actual.

[Peter Kafka]

And that's always been part of horror's appeal. Right.

[Pete Micelli]

They're cheap.

[Peter Kafka]

You can reliably get people. It's why Jason Blum got his start. Still is crushing it in horror, because you can make popular things.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah. And you don't necessarily want a bunch of huge movie stars in horror because it kind of takes you out of the. I'm here for a horror movie. Right. You know, and the budgets aren't. They can't really afford them. And so you get, you know, you can get a star or two that like, everybody knows. So it's like, oh, this is a real thing. So you're always balancing that stuff out. The feeling of, oh, this is an important movie. We got Nic Cage in Long Legs. This is an important movie. And we hear it's great. And the filmmaker's great. Okay, let's go. And then the word of mouth takes you. Or you see, what happened with Obsession is you just have somebody who has such an active audience and it became like a gift.

[Peter Kafka]

So Obsession and Backrooms both worked with traditional studios at one point for distribution. Iron Lung was really just Guy did it by himself. Can you imagine a world in which more people really try to, like, do this stuff basically on their own and keep everything for themselves? Or do you think they're going to mostly work with absolutely established distributors?

[Pete Micelli]

It's going to be a balance. It's definitely going to change. It's going to be a balance. There's just. You just see from. If you just pay attention to YouTube and the volume of people that are creating on YouTube, it's going to be an undeniable force how they kind of get into the existing system so they're marked credible. The story is great. It could sustain itself as a premium piece of content. That's still going to be a little bit bumpy, but it's going to be exciting to look. I always. There's a great Quote that we found early on, that was an inspiration for our company, which was talent is distributed equally all over the world, but opportunity is not. I forgot who said it, so it's definitely not me. I just repeat it a lot. And it was just this notion of there were so many gatekeepers to becoming a best in class storyteller and those are breaking down, which is going to be really exciting. You think in a world of AI where that's going to change the workforce, creativity is not something that we can do without in humanity and that's going to really open it up.

[Peter Kafka]

You've been champing at the bit to talk about AI, so no, let's do it. We're at the AI part of the conversation. So a couple years ago during the strikes, it went from we're not getting paid enough or we're concerned about our pay to AI is going to take over our business. I thought that was a little overcooked then and maybe counterproductive, but now it also seems like it's a pretty reasonable concern. Maybe you're not having AI actors yet and maybe scripts aren't being written by AI, but it seems like it is hollowing out or has the potential to hollow out lots and lots of human work in your business.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, I mean, I look at it as I am not the arbiter or control of. And we at range are not the arbiter or control of how AI is implemented in the world. That is because right now, with the

[Peter Kafka]

good version, I was, no, no. This is just going to allow us to make things more cheaply and we can previz and we can do more stuff with it. We're not doing less. But inevitably someone looks around and goes, yeah, we can do this for less. That involves hiring this many less humans.

[Pete Micelli]

It is. Here's how we have to look at it. We don't have a choice. It's going to shift the job responsibilities in Hollywood. And so you look at it and say, we can't stop AI from entering because there's going to be all these people all over the world that are going to use these AI tools that aren't going to listen to me or anyone else say, don't use them. They're going to start to create them. And now the distribution is available to anyone. There's no gatekeeper that can prevent it. So if you come to that determination that it's not preventable, which I fundamentally believe, then you go, well, how do we advise our clients and partners to succeed in this environment? Right. And then you look at it and you go, well, then go back to the Warner Brothers example. How come they weren't sustainable? The cost for these movies and TV shows were getting so huge, and the long tail wasn't there for them, so it became an unsustainable business as their own. The debt mounted. So you go, well, then how do we get to a place where there are a lot of jobs? Because we are making more things for less money and you are just shifting where people work. We take it very, very seriously in terms of, well, my God, if we can make more hit movies because the cost of the movies come down and we can put more into play, then we are going to get more people to work consistently. And that's where we have to go, because the genie's out of the bottle. And so I don't know. I have not heard one person that has like a, oh, we're gonna do it this way, we're gonna mandate it this way. It's uncontrollable now because distribution is not controllable by Hollywood anymore.

[Peter Kafka]

Do you think see room for some version of like, the organic restaurant where someone says, nothing in our production has

[Pete Micelli]

been touched by for sure, and that'll

[Peter Kafka]

be beautiful and that'll be. Attract a certain crowd.

[Pete Micelli]

Exactly right. And that's the thing is, like, you know, people too much content. And. And I'm like, well, is there too much content on YouTube? Because it seems to be working. Are there too many songs and music? Cause that seems to be working. Like, if we lower the price point of these movies, then there's less. We need a smaller subculture to say, I love it, for it to be profitable. And that's just an unstoppable path for us right now. So for us to not do hustle around the clock to understand how our clients and partners could thrive in the new world order, we'd be irresponsible.

[Peter Kafka]

Seems like for your business, you're kind of sketching out a world where you guys have to work, work really hard to find more clients who may not make as much on any individual project. And the upside you're hoping is there's just a lot more people out there that you can work with.

[Pete Micelli]

It's actually the opposite. So what we decided was to have a more balanced of a density of really impactful artists, exceptional talent, and bring them more opportunities in different areas, not just their core business. So they saw more opportunity from us, and we didn't have to have so many clients that it became impossible to service. So for us, it was establish Opportunities in their core, in production and telling stories and what they do on the social platforms and businesses that they build and move them around those pillars. And so we give them more opportunity, we do more together, and it's more balanced that way. Then at the same time, you're always looking for the new voices that are doing things that are really, really innovative.

[Peter Kafka]

If someone comes to you and says, I'm a new voice or whatever, I'm a talent, you want to work with me, here's the thing. I do not want to sell anything. I don't want to make other projects I don't want to do. What I want to do is work on my TV shows or my movies or whatever. That's all I want to do. And your pitch sounds great, except I'm not interested in it. But would you still work with someone like that?

[Pete Micelli]

You know, it so depends. It's just not. We just never hear that. Mostly when people come in, they're like, oh, thank God. Because it feels like we're in a bear market in film and TV or in music. They come in and like, yeah, we want to do all. I would just tell you, overwhelmingly, most of the artists that come in, the creators come in, they're really excited to kind of think in a dream factory way, it's just more of a balanced life.

[Peter Kafka]

As an aside, quite remarkable to see Steven Spielberg, at whatever age he's at, out there doing podcasts to promote a movie, has to. But he doesn't have to. Steven Spielberg, he doesn't have to, but it seems like he has made the determination that he wants lots of people to see his movie. And the best way for him to do that is not to have his stars do that. Normally, the stars would be out there. He's gonna go hang out with Amy Poehler.

[Pete Micelli]

I would say, yeah. Steven Spielberg doesn't have to do anything. He is, you know, Mount Rushmore. I mean, you know, like, I remember crying. The first movie I ever cried in was ET when I was, like, probably 8. The fact that I cannot wait to go see his movie. I am so excited to see his movie. But if you're Steven Spielberg, I've been in a couple meetings with him over the years. You poured your heart and soul into making this thing. You want people to know it's important to you, and that's why you go,

[Peter Kafka]

well, he always felt that way, but now he seems to have come to the conclusion that, well, I guess the way for that to happen is I have to go do the work.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah. And it's not because anybody. Most people are if they're aware that the Steven Spielberg movie's out there and he's proud of it and it's gonna be great. But there's so much noise. Like, how do you know? Back in the day of Indiana Jones or whatever it was, the only commercials you'd see were Indiana Jones. Like, you have to go see that.

[Peter Kafka]

We'll be back with Range Media's Pete Micelli. But first, a word from a sponsor.

[Pete Micelli]

When you finally find your thing, you want the whole world to know about that thing. So you use a thing called canva to make it an episode bigger and better thing. Whether you want to create flyers for that thing, make presentations for that thing, or design merch for that thing. You can do anything so people can see your thing, feel your thing, love your thing. The next thing you know, it's a thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. AI is moving fast across the enterprise, but without visibility, it's just chaos. Different tools, different models, different teams using AI in completely different ways.

[Peter Kafka]

ServiceNow turns that chaos into control.

[Pete Micelli]

With the AI control tower, you see

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

all your AI across the business in one place.

[Peter Kafka]

What it's doing, what it's done and

[Pete Micelli]

what it's about to do. So you stay in control. To put AI to work for people,

[Peter Kafka]

visit servicenow.com

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o dot com.

[Peter Kafka]

And we're back. Tell me about Google briefly. You work at Google. You made something called 100 zeros.

[Pete Micelli]

Tell me about that. So it's a company we created. A googol is actually what the real number is and it has 100 zeros behind it.

[Peter Kafka]

What is it?

[Pete Micelli]

So it's a company that we created that is investing in content production. We launched this thing called Xprize. It's the first global film competition, which is quite extraordinary. I did some research on Gemini and I was like, there hasn't been a really global film competition. I think there was one in 2003 and then one in 1932. And it's the idea of we want to tell positive stories a la more Star Trek, where technology in the world and humanity is going to get better because of technology, not worse. And so we open it up and we've raised a bunch of money with our partner Peter Diamantes and the xprize team for people are going to submit. I think we have 2,500 people that have registered and we're going to pick the best idea and we're going to go make a film that is putting the way where humanity is going in technology in a positive light.

[Peter Kafka]

What does Google get out of this?

[Pete Micelli]

Google is there's a bunch of things is they wanted to deepen their relationship in the entertainment community by being part of the solution. So being able to invest in content, invest in storytelling, we're in a flow together to say, okay, what are the AI tools that are really going to help production? Which one should we implement? Which one shouldn't we implement? And then it's for us to innovate the way that stories get to the world. So we launched a micro drama program together. These vertical dramas, it's, I think, the most dynamic one here.

[Peter Kafka]

Google wants to make content. They can pay people to do it themselves. They've done that. They can also do what they're doing now, which is say we have YouTube make content on YouTube. Why do they need to be involved with an agency?

[Pete Micelli]

They don't want to. We're a management company.

[Peter Kafka]

Sorry, we'll get to it.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, they didn't want to be the lead of like, hey, we're in Hollywood now and we're as good as any of these other companies. They wanted to partner with a company like Range that lends itself towards distribution to say, how do we innovate in storytelling? How can we be part of that? We have all these wonderful tools. Range, do you believe that? And can you innovate in storytelling? So when we sat down and I was like, oh, this X price thing, what an amazing thing to do. Together we launched a short film program. So a lot of what we're doing with Google, outside of them, investing in some of the traditional things, sentimental value. They invested in a couple other big. Some movies that really helped. It's like, well, distribution is changing radically. What can we offer artists to do? And so we have so many people going to work on our vertical drama program. And you go, well, they have Google TV that gets to 150 million eyeballs. The new app they put in then we can build a premium YouTube vertical channel that we can to billions of people. And it's creating a bunch of work. I mean not a work in a negative way. It's creating a bunch of opportunity for people to go to work and tell stories in a different way. And so what we feel is really important for us and why I leaned in the Google relationship was, man, everything is changing so quickly. We have to be involved with some of these titans to understand what's possible in terms of.

[Peter Kafka]

Seems like a no brainer for you. You corrected me earlier. I referred to as an agency. We're a management group. Again, these brought this up earlier. These the distinction, manager, agent, lawyer, legally important distinctions, all kind of broadly in the same bucket. Leads me to you guys. A lot of the people who you're working with came out of caa. CAA has been involved in this long running legal fight with you guys over I guess back end participation in CAA's dollars. Does that impact your business in any way?

[Pete Micelli]

No, it doesn't. It's, you know, we're just, we're coming to the end of the road on it, which is nice. There's been a bunch of stuff reported on where we sit today and it's, you know, you come into the business at scale and when we sat down to kind of map out what it was, it was like we were in the middle of a pandemic. It was pure chaos. And the inception of our company just came from what do we want our lives to be like as the world was falling apart, like what do you want your life to be? And so generally in Hollywood you, a lot of the higher end, more established talent has an agent and manager and those relationships were, you know, they would kind of work in flow and there's a Venn diagram and there's overlap but the agents field the offers and most of our clients in film and tv, by and large, I mean like, like I'm talking like 95% of them have agents too. And we love our working relationships with agencies and it's like a lot of it is, you know, we're in the place of, you know, don't come into this territory too big, too fast. We don't like it. Yeah.

[Peter Kafka]

And I should add there's a long history of legal fights between people who leave agencies or management groups. And because what you're hoping to do is bring your talent with you, the people who are leaving are very upset about that. It gets solved in the court one way or the other.

[Pete Micelli]

It really, it'll get the, you know, the, the TA will solve it. Ultimately, I. But it doesn't. None of it is. Nobody's operating illegally. We felt like, man, when CA took ICM off the board, there was a consolidation of now what you would consider three high level agencies. Not a lot of choice for talent. And so we enter in in a way that has never happened before and it makes people uncomfortable.

[Peter Kafka]

We've been talking about disruption and how the business has been disrupted by technology. You've been describing how you're trying to do things differently, but it also seems at the core that you're representing talent and you share in their success via some sort of participation. And what disrupts that business model one day, I'm sure people have been talking forever. Why do I need an agent or a manager? Why can't I just do this on my own? Why can't I take those fees back for myself?

[Pete Micelli]

It is, I mean, I think we're more needed now than ever. The relationship is, of course, that'd be insane to say anything else, but the relationship now is. It is so much harder now to advise. Given how much shift is in the

[Peter Kafka]

marketplace, your answer is, the world's fucking crazy. You need someone like us to see.

[Pete Micelli]

Yeah, that is the truth. The world is crazy. And the studios are changing. The movie studios are changing week over month. And how do you get a movie made and the rules of engagement and the streaming platforms and how do you sell to them and. But you know, like I was, you know, with some very talented artists last night and they were asked me a very similar question, like, is there a future for us? And I'm like, people will always, humanity will always want great storytelling. How we get it to the people, that's always gonna change. Your role in that, that's always gonna change. And we're needed now, in my opinion more than ever to help translate, communicate, help people understand how the shift in distribution is going to impact them and how they can succeed in it. In the days of Broadcast Network and where it was just like, oh, you have pilot season, you get shows ordered or not. I mean, I started at CA November 6, 1995. I literally when I was starting the mailroom for minimum wage and you would walk around the hallway, there were still typewriters on the desks of the assistants. That's when I started. There were typewriters on the desk. It was just like kind of an all or nothing game. You got shows picked up in May or you were out for the year. The level of complexity now and the level of complexity in terms of dealing with the streaming platforms, then what is a direct to consumer content strategy? Should we do a vertical drama? Should we do independent film? You know, like the level of complexity Now I would put it at 10x what it was in 2000.

[Peter Kafka]

Pete Micelli, you've made your case for your business more important to us. You have explained to us how Hollywood works in 2026. Thanks for coming in.

[Pete Micelli]

That was my pleasure. Thank you.

[Peter Kafka]

Thank you. Thanks again to Pete Micelli. Thanks again to Charlotte Silver who produces and edits our show. Thanks to our advertisers. Thanks to you guys for listening. See you next week.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com

[Pete Micelli]

the right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com we've spent 30 making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure right now. Get up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus get a free professional [e-mail] rules and restrictions apply.