← Channels with Peter Kafka
Channels with Peter Kafka
Inside Podcasting’s Fight Over Netflix, YouTube, and Creator Control
00:45:24
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A
Introducing Meta Glasses. You have questions. They've got answers. Hey, Meta, what's the capital of Peru?
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B
Lima.
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How do you say where's the restroom in Spanish? Donde esta Alvano? Hey, Meta, is a hot dog a sandwich?
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B
Technically, no.
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A
Spiritually, yes.
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B
Hey, Meta, what should I do with my life?
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That's one of life's biggest questions. What do you think? Ask anything. With the new Meta glasses. The best part of waking up?
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A full cup of Folger's coffee and
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music on full blast.
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B
The best part of waking up is
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Folgers in your cup shop, Folgers instant
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coffee, and more at your nearest retailer. Okay, mom, for my dorm, I'm thinking
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A
Coquette meets Poet Core. That sounds like a vibe. What do you need and where do we get it?
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B
Target. I already have everything on my mood board. A comforter, pillows, and a super cute floral lamp.
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So you probably need a rug to tie it all together.
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Omg. They have the perfect CMPC rug.
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Cmpc.
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Coquette meets Poet Core.
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Oh, okay. In that case, let's rtt. Yeah, let's run to Target.
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You're getting it. Find your dorm, inspiration and everything you need at Target.
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Foreign.
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B
From the Vox Media podcast network. This is Channels with Peter Kafka. That is me. I'm also chief correspondent at Business Insider. Hello to everyone with a deep interest in the operations of the New York Times and everyone else who listened to last week's chat with Times editor Joe Kahn. Welcome. Today we have another nuts and bolts discussion, which is also about video a bit. I'm talking to Chris Balfe, who is CEO of Red Seat Ventures, or as I like to call him. He's the guy helping people like Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly make money with their podcasts, which are, of course, talk shows you watch on YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. I talked to Balf on this show right after the 2024 election, when lots of us were trying to figure out what a podcast meant and how they worked. Since then, Fox bought Balf's company and he's been busy expanding his empire, which is something we talk about, including the fact that two of his biggest stars in his portfolio had messy breakups with his current owner. Got all that. What I really wanted to talk to Balf about is the current podcast landscape. I'm particularly interested in Netflix's venture into podcasting, whether his talent is interested in those deals, and whether Netflix really makes sense as an exclusive home for podcasts. I also wanted to talk to Balfe about clipping, which is an Old idea with a new name. Because as you'll hear us discuss, Clipping is really about giving giant platforms like Instagram and TikTok your content and getting $0 in return. That may be unsustainable, or it just may be the way of the world. Okay, that is a long intro. Here's me and Chris Balf. I'm here with Chris Balf. He is the CEO of Red Sea Adventures. Hi, Chris.
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A
Hey, Peter. How are you doing?
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B
Good. I just had a long, rambling introduction which I've now deleted out of this podcast. But it was explaining who you are and what you do. But why don't you just tell listeners what Red Seat Ventures is and who owns Red Seat Ventures these days?
- [03:30]
A
Sure. So Red Seat is a podcast and creator media company that I founded about 11 years ago with my brother Kevin and a couple of others. And over the years, as the podcasting and creator business sort of grew and consolidated, we became really focused on big creators and helping them as a creator services firm across all aspects of growth and monetization. About a year and a half ago, we were acquired by the Tubi Media Group, which is part of Fox.
- [04:01]
B
So the shorter version I say is this is the guy who helps Megan Kelly and Tucker Carlson and a bunch of folks on the conservative slash right wing part of the spectrum not exclusively make and sell their podcasts. You guys also do true crime. I think you're best known for the stuff you're doing with political commentators.
- [04:23]
A
Yeah, I think that's fair. And particularly when we started. Right. And pre Fox, the prefox era of Red Sea Ventures, we started in newstalk. That's where my history was. And so we found our way to a lot of interesting clients in that space and had been very successful in that space. And now we're taking the opportunity post Fox. I'm sure we'll talk more about it, but to really expand into all genres. And we've done that with some of the biggest shows in the country.
- [04:52]
B
Yeah. So if you want Chris's full origin story, I did talk with him in the fall of 2024 after the election. So I'm not going to go through all of that now. And Chris is someone I call up when I have a question about the podcasting business. I want to know how something works. And sort of that's what I want to do here, is there's some new developments over the last couple of years I wanted to ask you about. But I do want to talk to you about what life is like at Fox. This podcast that I'm talking to you on right now is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network, which now, in retrospect, seems quite similar to what Red Seed Ventures was and is doing. And this, instead of being owned by Lachlan Murdoch, Fox Media Podcast Network is now owned by James Murdoch. So there's that. What is life like for you as part of Fox as opposed to working on your own? What can you do now that you couldn't do before?
- [05:47]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think it's been. I think when we were going through the sales process, a lot of the conversation was around, you know, how. How it was going to work and how we were going to be able to kind of manage the team and grow the business. And I think, you know, Kevin and I were rightfully skeptical, right, in listening to that conversation. Everybody who's buying a company says, oh, the founders are going to be able to keep a control.
- [06:10]
B
And then we don't want to change anything. We want you to stay just the way you are.
- [06:14]
A
Yeah, exactly. And then the opposite happens. I think what's so interesting about this, and, you know, I'm now a year and a half into it, is it really is a great f. They have. Lachlan and my boss, Paul Chisborough, have a vision for how Fox should play in the creator economy. And it's exactly my vision. And so we're really aligned. They've given us the resources to go big. We've grown by, oh, I don't know, almost 100 people since we were acquired. And we've got many more openings, particularly in sales that we're filling. And most importantly, we're building out, I think, all of the different components that creators need in a way bigger way than we were before. But also we're able to play with the biggest talent in the space. I mean, Crime Junkie and Audio Chuck with Kill Tony and with lots of others that will be announced soon.
- [07:04]
B
When I talked to you, your biggest clients were people who had publicly broken with Fox, Tucker Carlson and Megan Kelly. And I think there was some question of, like, oh, how will Tucker Carlson and Megan Kelly feel about working with a company that is owned by Fox? They're still working with you, so I'm assuming that has been resolved. Was it an issue when you guys were initially purchased?
- [07:28]
A
Initially, there was definitely, like, a group of articles that came out about, you know, Megyn Kelly's back or whatever. And I think, obviously she was sensitive to that, as she should be, because it just wasn't true. You know, it just. It's Not a situation where it's not like being on Fox News Channel. We're a creator services firm. We work for them. We. Megan maintains her independence, you know, now as before. And I think you don't have to take it from me, just listen to what she says on the show about everything and see whether or not we have any editorial control over that. I can tell you for sure that we do not.
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B
Did you have to talk to, I mean, what was your trepidation about those two talents in particular? Did you have to spend time with them saying, look, here's what's going to happen, here's what's not going to happen? Are you okay with this? Was there a question that they might not be okay with it and if so, might not stick around?
- [08:20]
A
Yeah, I mean, of course it was their choice. And so of course we felt that. I did go to them both and had that conversation with them and to both their credit, they were like, great, great for you, great for Red Sea and for me. Let's see if what you're telling me is true, that nothing's going to change and that we're going to continue to be able to be fully independent. And then, Chris, we support you and we support Red Sea and let's go. But I think the, the devil's in the details and I think we've, I think we've more than lived up to, to that bargain.
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B
And, and so again, back to being inside Fox. So they gave you and your brother money. That's great for you. They give you more resources. But in terms of what you said, that there's a vision for the creator economy and how Fox plays in that, what, what does that actually amount to? Because obviously they have this giant platform being Fox News and Fox Broadcast in general. What, what are you giving them that they didn't have prior to this?
- [09:18]
A
Well, I think that we did have a pretty unique vantage point into how podcasting in the creator economy works for creators. And it's a different spin. Right. I think when you're running networks, networks work in a much more top down way. There's ownership, there's control, there's all these things really. Podcasting in the creator economy up till now, something I'm sure we'll talk about when we talk about Netflix, but up till now it's been much more about creator ownership. I do what I want and you help me and that's the way we run Red Seat. You do what you want and we help you. We help you grow the show, monetize the show, even Produce the show. In some cases, not at all. But that's a very different way of working than I think a lot of media companies go into the sort of plan with. And I think that's one of the reasons that sometimes there's a conflict between how do major media companies become creator friendly?
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B
So on the one hand you're telling your talent that you work with, whether they work at Fox or they're just have their own LLC or whatever it is, we're gonna service you, we're gonna sell ads for you, we're gonna help produce your show. I'm just trying to understand sort of how Fox thinks about this. You guys are a nice business, a decent sized business, but you're not going to move the needle in terms of your PNL for Fox in the near term. Is this something where they're looking and saying, we imagine a world where there's lots of important voices that are not on Fox and Fox News and we want to work with them. Is this a hedge? Like maybe, maybe this doesn't amount to much, but we can sort of dip our toe into it. How do you think?
- [11:01]
A
How.
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B
What's the best way of describing how they have described it to you?
- [11:05]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think that really we do intend to have an impact on Fox's P and L in the medium to long term. I think that the creator economy is at a size, whether you believe it's 10 billion or 50 billion or whatever, the number is that we can take a big bite out of it and have a meaningful impact. And I think that inside the company, we look at Tubi and the success that they've had at Tubi, growing the business from whatever 3 or 400 million that it was when Fox acquired it to what it is now, which is well over. I don't know what number is out
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B
there, but well over a billion around it.
- [11:46]
A
Yeah, yeah. So we have a growth trajectory because the resources were being provided that I think could put us on the map. With that said, that's going to take some time. And in the meantime, we do bring sort of creator DNA to the other businesses as well and allow the other businesses to say, you know, how do we accelerate our own creator strategies across all of the internal Fox businesses, which is something we've done.
- [12:12]
B
I'll just try asking it. Maybe a third way is part of the idea that you have someone who is on contract who's working for Fox. Jesse Waters or whomever. I assume Jesse has his own show. I don't know. I should have known. And you say, oh, in addition to being on television, we'd also like you to podcast. Here's a business that will help you create a podcast for you. Is it if Jesse Waters wants to have a podcast, he could work with you. Does he have to work with you? Does he get to shop that deal around? I'm just trying to think how Fox thinks about this.
- [12:49]
A
Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you very specifically one way they're thinking about it because my boss Paul Cheesborough has said this before, which is that he thinks about Red Seat as on ramps and off ramps. So on ramps for talent that are maybe coming to the network, whether that's Fox Sports, Fox News, Fox Entertainment, whatever it may be. Brett Cooper is a great example of that who joined as a Red Sea creator and then ultimately also became a Fox News contributor. And then off ramps, maybe you were, you know, you're ready to go independent and Fox can continue to play a role in you sort of leaving whatever network you might have been on and playing a role still through Red Seat. So I think that's one, I think that's one way to look at, at additional value to Fox. I think that ultimately we're going to be judged as being our own business and because we're building something big and unique. But it's a good bonus for sure.
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B
And last, on the Fox side, are you precluded, either contractually or just more sort of businessy wise, from working with a well known liberal? If the Pod Save America guys didn't have their own network, would you be able to work with them? Would you want to work with them? Does it make sense to sort of stay ideologically consistent?
- [14:03]
A
I think it does make sense and I think that you will see us do a deal like that at some point with someone who is ideologically different
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B
than the rest of your Sable.
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A
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, I think ultimately the Red Seat ventures. The Red Seat is named after the Red Seat at Fenway Park. It's not named after any ideological, you know, I think that our current clients certainly understand that we're not, you know, we're a service provider for everyone. And, and I think it's a common, I want to say misconception, but people aren't wrong in thinking that. We do have a lot of right of center News Talk clients, but I think that as we expand into all genres, it's only natural for us to have clients on the liberal side. There are a few that have approached us and we could definitely do a deal there.
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B
Okay, let's zoom out and talk about the podcast business more generally. Two big things that have happened in the last year and a half since I talked to you first. Spotify made a big push to get into podcasts and was offering their own monetization. Monetization strategies. They were already in podcasting, but they made a big push. And then Netflix has gone out and said, we'd just like to buy shows. We want to have exclusive rights to big popular podcasts. We want them to come off of YouTube and everywhere else and basically exist exclusively on Netflix. So let's start on the Netflix and this experiment. Do we call it an experiment or do we think Netflix is fully committed to the podcasting idea?
- [15:27]
A
I think it's an experiment.
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B
Why do you say that?
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A
I think that they've publicly said, we're still testing things, we're trying to see what stuff works, what stuff doesn't. And, and I think they've done some short term deals. I think they've, you know, made offers that have been, you know, really high for some things, really low for other things. I think they're figuring it out still.
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B
And, and what is your sense of how that experiment is working? Do we know if people are watching these shows on Netflix? If so, is the Netflix podcast consumer different than a podcast consumer somewhere else?
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A
Let me preface this by saying these guys built a $300 billion business and I didn't. So they're pretty smart. I hate it. I hate it for creators and I hate it for Netflix. I think it's. It really for creators. The, the whole appeal of the creator economy is controlling your own destiny and distribution in the way that you want to. And I think that by a. Asking people to come off of YouTube, which there's no reason to believe, if you have 10 million YouTube channel subscribers and you come off when you go back on, that channel will still be active. I think that you're taking a huge risk there.
- [16:36]
B
So you're saying on the creator side, you should not view this as an experiment. This is you fully committing to Netflix whether you think you are or not.
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A
Yeah. And you no longer own the distribution. The whole beauty of this is if I'm doing a show on December 31st and then I do a show on January 1st, I own that distribution, or at least I have access to this RSS feed or this channel. With Netflix, if my deal's up and I don't like the renewal terms, they're going to take away my audience on January 1st. I mean, that's absolutely antithetical to everything. That we have been building in the creator economy. It's going back to a TV model in all of the ways that are bad and having gatekeepers and all of those things. But I also think it's bad for Netflix because ultimately, I know they're a little bit in a race with YouTube where they think they are, but I just don't see how taking something that was free on YouTube yesterday and making it paid on Netflix today creates any value for subscribers.
- [17:37]
B
I think the argument would be one, if you were a big barstool fan, for instance, and those guys have done a Netflix deal. It's. You very likely have Netflix, and it's not a big deal for you to move over from watching to YouTube, from watching on YouTube to watching on Netflix. And then presumably the other part of the equation is there's many more people in the world who are not barstool fans or who have not encountered barstool, and they are Netflix subscribers, and we are going to increase your audience. So do we know if that is playing out? If, if this, if the people who were watching these shows on YouTube, on Spotify, wherever else, have switched over and do we know if they're finding new audience? Is what kind of data, anecdotal or otherwise, is there about how this is going?
- [18:19]
A
Yeah, I don't think there's a lot. I mean, I think, you know, anecdotally and reports that have, have, you know, been kind of circulating behind the scenes or whatever are that, you know, it's, it's not, you know, the engagement isn't that high or whatever, but it's too, I think it's too early to tell. And, and I don't know. You know, Netflix famously doesn't give data to, you know, movie studios and stars that are asking for data. They're certainly not going to get.
- [18:43]
B
They've gotten a little better. I've gotten a little better about that. Everyone who goes into these deals understands the dynamic, right? We're, we're, we're taking on risk because we're going to leave YouTube in our audience. And so we're going to Netflix. Netflix is going to have to bas. Overpay us to compensate for that risk, which is something Netflix is used to. Right. That's how they got into originals was paying people a lot more than the market. Right. Because they knew that this was a gamble. And also there were other parts of the economics where they needed to take the back end out and give you the money up front. Have you heard about anyone saying, oh, I regret this deal Now I wish that we had either asked for more or the money we're making is not going to make us whole for the audience we've lost.
- [19:26]
A
I don't think so. Because I think to your point, you know, everybody went in eyes wide open enough. I think there was, from what I heard, there was a first round of deals that came out and the agents were like, this isn't even close. And then they kind of get back to reality and came in with deals that were, that were more mind blowing and the companies that took them knew what they were getting into. Like, obviously Barstool is a great example. I don't think that they had this massive YouTube business for those shows that they were leaving behind. And so great, go for it. But know what you're. I think that's why it's trickier for creators that do have, you know, big substantial YouTube businesses for the long term to, to take that risk.
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B
Are there people that you know of either because you work with them or are in that orbit where, you know, they have turned down a Netflix deal?
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A
Oh, for sure, yeah.
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B
I mean, what kind of numbers are people walking away from?
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A
Big numbers? You know, I think the feeling of it's more for top talent. They honestly have a lot of places that will give them a lot of money, right? Including me and including Netflix and including Spotify and including SiriusXM. And so if you're sitting there with a big show that has a lot of competitive bidders, Netflix is just another competitive bidder in that scenario. And thinking about what you're giving up in the short medium and long term to go there is a big consideration, I think that everybody realize is, you know, Netflix is not a small platform. So it's not like you're going to this. You know, I wouldn't compare it, let's say to Howard Stern going to SiriusXM, where you have this small audience and you're kind of helping, you know, build it. Like, I get that Netflix is a mass platform, but the other trade offs that we've talked about, around creator independence, around not controlling your own destiny, and around potentially killing your YouTube channel are serious.
- [21:10]
B
When you have talked to the talent you're working with and they say they're interested in a Netflix deal, I assume your pitch to them is the one you just made. To me, you're going to lose independence, you're going to lose your ability to sort of like nurture this audience you have already built. Is that sort of the gist of it?
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A
Pretty much. I mean, we're always on the side of talent. So I would start with what's the offer? Right. Like let's look at this together and decide if I'll very clearly tell, you know, you whether I think you should do it. And there are cases where, you know, we've always historically been against Spotify video, but we're doing more Spotify Spotify video. Like because there's a time and a place for every deal.
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B
So yeah, let's talk about Spotify video. Spotify made a big push into saying, hey, we, we very much aimed at YouTube. We think this is a big business, we'd like to participate in it. We want you to do video deals with us. You just said we have been opposed to that. Why were you guys opposed to your talent doing Spotify deals?
- [22:07]
A
Yeah, in general we were opposed to Spotify video because the way that they monetize the video is different. Right. So in, in YouTube land we put, we upload the video, they AdSense sells against it. We have host read ads that are in it. So we've got these dual revenue streams and we make net additional dollars. When we start a podcast that starts on YouTube with Spotify, they're basically saying if you move to video, we are taking away programmatic audio inventory for all Spotify video premium subscribers. They're no longer going to hear your Programmatic audio ads and instead we're going to give you a percentage of subscription revenue that we in our sole discretion determine is the right amount of money to give you. And so just like creator independ concerns on the Netflix side and you know, anytime platforms are, are doing these types of things, look, we know they're looking out for themselves, not for, you know, us. And so that, that gives me some, some pause.
- [23:01]
B
Is your concern that the creators make less money ultimately when they go to Spotify and, and do that deal or just they don't know what they're missing out on because of the black box and Spotify is in charge of doling out the money.
- [23:13]
A
It's both, I think, you know, and again I'm giving you the sort of historical view. I think that that's changing and we could talk more about that, but we felt that there was less, that they were making less money and that they were also, you know, sort of subjecting themselves to the whim of what if Spotify wakes up tomorrow and changes the payout rate.
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B
We'll be right back with Chris Balfe. But first word from a sponsor. Bonjour, compadre. It's the priceline negotiator how do I
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A
negotiate so many great travel deals?
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B
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neighborhood vibe, star level, and amenities like pools and spas and beach fronts and.
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Wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me up.
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A
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Bobby and Connie are official.
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We were just warming each other up. Shut up. Oh, good God. Hulu's hit animated series is back for
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B
a brand new season. Big changes.
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A
Our communication skills could be a little better. Peggy, it's against golf etiquette.
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B
What does golf etiquette say about jamming this club into your mouth? It's frowned upon.
- [24:29]
A
The new season of the Hulu original King of the Hill, premiering July 20 on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. For bundled subscribers, terms apply.
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B
When she said, I don't dance now
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A
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B
But that's not the Mount Rushmore.
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A
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When that line dropped it.
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A
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A
They're just debated forever.
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- [25:12]
B
And we're back. So I grew up in a world where podcasts were things you listen to. That has changed a bit. And now everyone equates YouTube with podcasts. Do you think people are actually watching podcasts on YouTube? Some people swear they are. A lot of folks say no, they're kind of listening to it on background. Does that distinction matter to you?
- [25:33]
A
It matters a little. We have so little data about it that it's, you know, it all kind of gets abstracted together into what? What becomes the CPM that we're charging to advertisers. You know, what we do see is a ton of YouTube usage on connected TVs, which makes me think there's a lot of watching happening. But, you know, I guess I would say that if you were watching, you know, Oprah back in the day and it was on tv, how much of that was watching versus listening? Who knows?
- [25:55]
B
And how, when you're thinking about your business today, when you think about podcasts, if you just made a pie chart, what percent of Your revenue is coming from people listening to podcasts versus people watching them on YouTube or anywhere else?
- [26:08]
A
Yeah, I mean, it's changed a lot. You know, I think even though 18 months since we last talked, it's changed a lot. I think we're seeing shows now that are historically audio shows that are now 50, 50 audio video. And then we're seeing this whole set of creators that have traditionally been video creators that are coming and kind of adopting a little bit more of a podcast like business model and hoping for the consistency that podcast deals bring. And so some deals that we're seeing right now from agents are almost all video deals. These are YouTube creators that are coming
- [26:43]
B
to us, which is great.
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A
Great.
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B
And, and do you think there's a world where podcast eventually just become synonymous with. With video, where this is just. The idea of listening to something is kind of archaic? Yes, you could read a print newspaper, but very few people do that now. And yes, you could listen to a podcast, but most people are expect to see them now.
- [27:03]
A
I think we're pretty much already there. I mean, there's. There are definitely. You know, that doesn't mean that there are huge podcasts that are. That are primarily audio or that people will always want to have the option to listen in their car to things. But, you know, right now, all the conversations that we're having and all the growth, you know, we look at Apple, Apple adopting video with Apple, hls, Spotify video, where we're again starting to, you know, more favorite than oppose it. And then, you know, YouTube, you know, we almost just say it's a show now. And podcast is a. Is an archaic term.
- [27:34]
B
Do you think that that is a different skill set and that people who were successful as primarily audio podcasters may not succeed in a video world? Or do you think they can learn those tricks? Do you think there's a different expectation for someone as a video podcaster versus someone who's on television? Or are those all the same thing now?
- [27:56]
A
No, I mean, look, I think clearly there are people who are going to be better at being video performers than there are audio performers, people who are going to be better at audio. And maybe our. Clearly, we're already seeing this. They're being reluctantly dragged in. I don't want to have a camera in there, but. Okay, exactly. You and others that we work with.
- [28:16]
B
I was waving to Chris. I've still not made this a video podcast, but we'll save the discussion.
- [28:20]
A
Yeah, exactly. Peter, come on. It's time. It's time. I get it, but I think that realistically, again, because some of the video watching is still listening. But the discovery mediums are video mediums. Podcasting has always had a discovery problem, and YouTube and TikTok and other places in some ways solve that problem or at least offer a solution to it. So yeah, I mean, I think I've sort of jammed four answers together here, but basically I do think it's a different skill set. I think there are people who are great at video and people who are great at audio, but by the way, both of them could be very successful Red Sea clients.
- [28:57]
B
That discovery comment is a nice transition. I wanted to ask you about clipping, which is kind of funny to me because on the one hand it's a thing that people are newly interested in talking about and maybe there is some new stuff. On the other hand, the idea of taking a long form piece of content and cutting it up and distributing it on other platforms is not a new idea, it's very old idea. I'm curious what you think about clipping as either at least as a media phenomenon versus a thing we talk about. Phenomenon versus an actual industry phenomenon.
- [29:31]
A
Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, I agree with you, it's sort of hilarious. I mean, the short form video marketplace last year was over $100 billion, right. $50 billion with Meta and then YouTube, Snapchat, TikTok adds up to the rest of it. I think media companies and creator economy companies have made a big mistake here in allowing the economics of those things to be transferred to the tech platforms rather than to be living at all with media companies and creators.
- [30:01]
B
I want you to sit on that. Maybe I was just undercutting your point, but explain what you mean by moving the economics to those platforms.
- [30:11]
A
Yeah, so I mean, if we have a podcast business where we have a long form piece of content, we distribute it To Apple, Spotify, YouTube and elsewhere, we sell ads in it, we make money. The creator gets the majority of that money. Right. If the same interview, the best moments of that call her daddy interview or that interview with, I don't know, the ringer, get clipped and uploaded to TikTok, Spotify makes zero dollars. Bill Simmons makes zero. Essentially zero. Right. I mean, there may be a few dollars here, but the TikTok Instagram, YouTube
- [30:45]
B
is pick tock and Instagram basically give none of the money to creators. YouTube Shorts gives some. YouTube is the remains the only platform where they're saying, oh, if we make a dollar, we're going to split it with the talent who made the video.
- [30:59]
A
Exactly. And not only that, but you know, we all fought a big battle with YouTube back in 1997 or whatever over content ID and right to say, at least make it so that we're the ones who can monetize our content if we choose to do that and allow us to block others. And yet here we are with these, all these new platforms that have no cop. I'm just as likely to see a Call Her Daddy clip from Call Her Daddy's account as I am from XV17R.
- [31:27]
B
You know, who might be a professional clipper, who might be. Who's doing it for their own reasons, or it may be someone that Alex Cooper has paid to promote her stuff using a name that doesn't look like Alex Cooper paid for it. Right. All three of those things can exist, sure. Yeah.
- [31:47]
A
Or it could just be a pure copyright thief trying to build up their own account by using great clips and then, and then. So we don't know. And I agree that there's a lot of that paid stuff going on, not necessarily accusing Alex Cooper of doing it, but I think that, you know, there are plenty of people that are doing it, but I think that by doing, by not fighting the copyright battle and by also not fighting really at all to get media companies and creators paid for clips, we've just taken a massive, massive amount of dollars for our content, ours, both red seats, our creators and every media company and just said, here, Meta, here, TikTok, you take this money.
- [32:24]
B
So you're saying, essentially, I'm going to sum it up. We are giving these giant platforms our content that we build and monetize and we're giving it to them for free and we get nothing in return. Turn.
- [32:38]
A
Correct. Yeah.
- [32:39]
B
And their answer would be no. No, we have a giant platform. Look at all this reach you're getting.
- [32:45]
A
Yes.
- [32:46]
B
It's like we've told everyone in the Internet economy forever, like, you know, we're going to make it up for you on volume. It seems like in your world that would have some salience. Right? You know, maybe Tucker Carlson, maybe Megan Kelly don't need more exposure. Maybe they're fully exposed, but presumably there's other talent that I'm not familiar with that maybe would be useful for me to see, see in a clip form at some point. Isn't there some validity to that argument?
- [33:10]
A
Of course, for sure. And that's why talent in particular is, is very sensitive to, you know, us cracking down on, on the clipping economy. They, they want to be, they know, just like Lorne Michaels knows that everyone watches SNL on YouTube. The next day. Our talent knows that when people say, oh, I listened, I saw that interview you did with so and so, or I listened to this thing over here. You know, I saw that. Whatever. Oftentimes they mean they saw it on reels and the talent and okay, that's, that's interesting. As long as it doesn't, as long as it doesn't really hurt their core business because a lot of these businesses are really big, really successful. These talent are making, you know, five, 10, $50 million a year. And maybe they're not that upset about the clipping. I think that though, as clipping eats more and more of the economy because people spend more and more time there and short form video goes from 100 billion to 300 billion or whatever it becomes, we're going to see, we could potentially see dollars shift from, and that clearly already has happened, but we're going to see more dollars shift from the long form where we're trying to sell it on behalf of the talent and have that sort of giant sucking sound go in favor of the platforms.
- [34:19]
B
We'll be right back with Chris Balf. But first, a word from a sponsor. Listen to the heartbeat. Chevy is called the heartbeat of America for a reason.
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- [36:02]
B
And we're back. A couple questions. One, do, do you have evidence one way or the Other that says, oh, if there's enough people seeing clips, whether legit or. Or not, that there is some transference, that there is some top of the funnel stuff where people are encountering just again, say Megyn Kelly on TikTok and then eventually become a Megyn Kelly YouTube watcher or audio listener.
- [36:28]
A
I can't say never. But I don't see it at scale across any of our shows and I've never done it myself. Like, I don't. I also am a TikTok. You know, I regret to admit maybe you could edit this out for me, but I probably spend 30 minutes a day on TikTok throughout the day here and there.
- [36:45]
B
Wait, you think that's bad or not enough?
- [36:48]
A
That's. I think that's bad. Yeah. I think that's way too long. Right. Because it's brain rotting and it adds no value to your So I will
- [36:55]
B
not tell you how much TikTok time I spend then.
- [36:57]
A
Okay, good, good, good. We'll agree to not. We'll agree to not share that. I do see, you know, great moments from Howard Stern or great moments from Caller Daddy or whatever. And I have never subscribed to those channels on YouTube, Spotify or Apple. I get my fix of those shows in those places and the creator makes an nothing.
- [37:14]
B
And when you say we're cracking down on clipping, are you actually preventing your talent from, from doing clipping? I thought the whole point, not cracking
- [37:24]
A
down on it, we, I would say my, my, my views on it are, you know, we haven't done a whole lot with them other than, you know, just sort of expounding on them, you know.
- [37:35]
B
So you tell your talent we think this is a bad idea and the talent may say that's great, I'm going to do clipping anyway.
- [37:40]
A
I don't even say that. I say that here's the risks. The risks is that more dollars continue to flow to short form platforms. I don't think we're seeing this huge discovery lift. And I think in most cases talents say I'd still rather see myself out there in all these different places and be exposed to all these different people and stay in the conversation and all those which have value. I'm not discounting those things. I just think. Think that you have to weigh those two things. What's the exposure versus what's the dollars? And me being a crass capitalist pig, I'd rather less people know you and you make more money. But I get in the talent business, that's not sure.
- [38:17]
B
I mean, your motives are Straightforward, Right. You want to make more money. You do not make money when I watch a Megan Kelly clip on reels or on TikTok.
- [38:25]
A
So for you it's straightforward in most cases, neither death of talent.
- [38:28]
B
Right. But the talent might say, I do want the exposure. It is meaningful to me. I do want to play in that world.
- [38:35]
A
And again, they're not wrong in that view. It's just, I think the balance is out of whack.
- [38:39]
B
This dynamic you're talking about, where content goes to the platforms, the platforms make almost all or most of the money from that content. The people who created the content get zero or very little from it. This is not a new dynamic. The industry, media industry, has been dealing with it for a long time. Do you think anything changes here or is this just sort of the way of the world? And Meta and TikTok in particular are giants and you can stomp your feet all you want, but they're just going to run that business the way they want to run it.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah, I mean, I'm mostly shouting into the void. I do understand that. But I do think when we will be able to fight back is when we see a decline in the traditional broadcast dollars or in the traditional podcast dollars. When we start to see. And by the way, I think that the audio platforms are seeing this, that most audio podcasts are not great growing. And so when you say, where is the growth coming from? Well, it's coming from video. Is that because people have switched all their usage to YouTube or is that because they're seeing all the content that they want to see on short form platforms and they don't need to go to these audio platforms anymore? I think it's a little bit of both. And I think that as we see more and more chipping away of long form dollars, that's when people will start to maybe band together and say to the platforms, can we just give us a little bit of that 1 billion? And we're not greedy, we'll be happy with our share. By the way, we're the ones creating all the content and paying for that creation. So I think there's more to come. But I acknowledge ultimately that we are mostly screaming into the void.
- [40:19]
B
Do you think that's something that the market resolves one way or the other? Do you think there is a political or legal element to this where the platforms are forced against their will to have to sort of pony something up? Or do you think they're only going to do it if there's money in it?
- [40:33]
A
I'm definitely A capitalist. And so I think what will happen is, for example, Snapchat. Snapchat's not doing great. I think everyone can acknowledge. We can look at the stock and say that. I think if they started to say, wait a minute, what if we became much more aggressive about creator rev share? What if we became YouTube of shorts, where we gave 55% of short revenue to creators? And then creators said, okay, we're going to give for every one piece of creator content that we give to. To Instagram reels or to TikTok because of reach. We give 10 to Snapchat because of the monetization. I think that there is a market play here for either YouTube or Snapchat to be the one to sort of attract creators with a better rev show.
- [41:18]
B
Rupert Murdoch reportedly spent some time at the White House telling Donald Trump that he'd like some help with his NFL negotiations. Do you think podcast monetization gets to his level of discussion with the president?
- [41:33]
A
Well, first of all, I have no idea if that's reported in the Wall
- [41:37]
B
Street Journal owned by Rupert Murdoch.
- [41:40]
A
We're required by law to say that. But no, I don't think that it's likely to be taken up really with anybody anytime soon other than me talking to my friends and clients and podcasters.
- [41:52]
B
One more uncomfortable Murdoch question for you, Chris. Your company is buying Roku for $22 billion. That deal is not closed. You don't run Fox. But I'm curious what you think Roku under Fox means for your business.
- [42:10]
A
Yeah, well, as we've discussed, I am now a corporate stooge. So I feel very comfortable saying that I am just happy that Lachlan Co. Did an investor call where they talked about the strategy, and I would just refer you to that.
- [42:26]
B
Fair enough. We're not going to tack on the audio from that call onto this, so everyone can go find it on their own. But let the record state that I asked Chris Balf a question about the Roku acquisition, but it seems like there are some obvious places for you to play if that deal. When and if that deal goes through.
- [42:43]
A
Yeah, you know, right now it's business as usual for. For the companies to operate separately, but certainly it's something I'm excited.
- [42:49]
B
One more opportunity for you to hype your business. Who is a creator you're working with that people who listen to channels that Peter Kafka may not be familiar with but ought to be familiar with.
- [43:00]
A
Ooh, I don't know if people listen to channels. I'm just gonna stereotype your audience and say perhaps not kill Tony fans.
- [43:08]
B
Probably not.
- [43:09]
A
But we did do a multi year deal with Tony, who also has a Netflix deal and comedy specials and things like that. And it's the number one live comedy podcast in the country. The YouTube videos get millions and millions of views per episode. It's a live comedy show, so it's a lot of fun. Obviously. It's also like any comedy can be dirty, politically incorrect, all those other things. But it also does really well as a podcast because it's very listenable, it's fun, it's comedy. And it's a great deal for us because it brings together Supercast acquisition, which is a subscription business that we purchased that allows creators to create their own subscriptions. Tony's got, you know, he's launching his own supercast. It brings together our sales, you know, capabilities and rights. It brings together distribution because he'll be on Fox owned platforms. And so it's a great example of what we can bring to the table for creators across all these different dimensions. And thank you for allowing me to hype.
- [44:11]
B
No worries. If you are a channels listener, Tony Hinchcliffe's name might be familiar to you as the guy who made these jokes at the Trump rally. Late stages the 2024 election and there was a minute where all kinds of smart people were saying, oh, this is very bad for the campaign and also bad for Tony Hinchcliffe. It seems like one. It was not bad for the campaign. And it seems like Tony Hinchcliffe's career has continued to ascend following that MSG event.
- [44:38]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think the numbers speak for themselves as far as his popularity and the show. And I think it's one of those things also. That's just amazing, the consistency. YouTube, we talk about the risks of algorithmically driven platforms rather than owned RSS audience where you've got subscribers or whatever it may be. But one of the things that YouTube does so well is deliver consistent audiences for consistent content. Right. If you're putting out something that's, that's of a high quality and you're putting it out on a consistent basis, it finds an audience. And Tony, you know, his. The numbers are millions of views and there are millions of views for every episode.
- [45:14]
B
Chris Bell, thank you for your time. Thank you for your candor. Love talking.
- [45:18]
A
Thanks, Peter. Appreciate it.
- [45:19]
B
Thanks again to Chris Bell. Thanks again to Charlotte Silver who produces and edits this show. Thanks to our advertisers. They're not funny, they're very serious. Thanks to our advertisers who let us bring you this show for free. Thanks to you guys for listening. See you soon.
- [45:40]
A
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You what?
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No.
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