← Channels with Peter Kafka
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- [00:01]
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- [00:31]
Warner Bros. Discovery Advertising Representative
support for the show comes from Warner Bros. Discovery Advertising. You know those moments in entertainment where you're not just watching, you're feeling it. That's what Warner Bros. Discovery delivers to audiences every day. From the roar of live sports arenas to the clash of dragon ruled kingdoms. From the front lines of breaking news to the heartbeat of busy kitchens, WBD Advertising combines this incredible IP with modern ad tech and a partner first mindset to turn this cultural attention into real connection and measurable conversion. Visit adsales.wbd.com to learn more.
- [01:21]
Explain It To Me Podcast Host
What does it take to be prepared for disaster? You have to be confident. You have to be calm. Will you be perfect? No. But the idea is that you'll have your bearings and this won't be something new to you. This week on Explain It To Me how to stay ready so you don't have to get ready. New episode Sundays Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:51]
Peter Kafka
From the Vox Media Podcast Network. Literally at the Vox Media Podcast Network with the CEO of the company that owns the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is Channels with Peter Kafka. That's me. I'm talking to Jim Bankoff, the CEO of Vox Media. Hi Jim.
- [02:06]
Jim Bankoff
Hi, Peter.
- [02:06]
Peter Kafka
You're in the news today. Thanks for coming by.
- [02:08]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah, well, thanks you for coming by, but it's so great to be in our studios and doing an interview here. I think this might be the first or maybe the only other one I did was with you. Or perhaps I don't even remember.
- [02:21]
Peter Kafka
Anyway, I have a couple of these with you. Before we start, I have a ton of disclosures here. I worked for you for eight years at Vox Media. For the last two years I've been recording my podcast through the Vox Media Podcast Network again, which we just talked about. On top of all that, I like you personally. I think you are a good human being as well as a good boss. So let's just get all of that out of there.
- [02:41]
Jim Bankoff
I like that last disclosure and I will second that emotion. You're my only. You're my only media stop today, Peter, and maybe my only one period. And this is certainly my only podcast for now, so it's great to be
- [02:54]
Peter Kafka
here now the love fest is over. I saw the press release you put out about the deal just to set it up. I can't imagine anyone's listening to this who doesn't know what it is. You are selling. The Vox Media podcast network, New York Magazine and Vox.com to James Murdoch's holding company, Lupa Systems, I think it's called. So why is this a good deal for Vox, its shareholders and then the other company that you're not selling, which is a collection of websites including Eater, the Verge, popsugar, et cetera?
- [03:26]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah, absolutely. So you're right. We're excited to be essentially splitting the company into two until close, which usually takes about six weeks. I'll be the CEO of the combined company as I am today. After that I'll be CEO of the Lupa Systems company and Ryan Polley will be the senior of the new company called the Other Part of the Company, which will be named. And it's exciting and it's great. And I think I just happened to read the New York Times article. I think I was quoted as saying, as someone who has been here since the beginning, who takes accountability for the architecture and the journey, I'm so excited for both parts of the company because I think it allows them to reach their full potential, allows the employees to, allows the brands to. It allows us to do great things for our business partners, our advertisers, et cetera. One side of the company is focused on what I'll generally call in media jargon since this is a media podcast, talent based platforms and multimedia multi visual also with more of a subscription bias. The Vox Media podcast network a talent platform. New York Magazine itself a different kind of talent platform. Talented journalists, but also increasingly expressing itself multimedia. But importantly with a subscription business, it really propels it forward. Vox is multimedia from the onset as well as. And by the way, you used to work at Vox after Recode. And so those businesses naturally go together. They have growth characteristics that make sense to go together. They also have multimedia characteristics that make sense to go together. The other businesses also have multimedia and also have growth, but they're more similar. There was a time, five plus years ago where bringing everything together, getting a whole lot of scale made sense. And as it tends to do, media changed a lot. The Internet changed a lot, technology changed a lot. That's what happens in our industry. And so what made sense for us to come together five plus years ago now makes sense for us to get focused.
- [05:34]
Peter Kafka
So that all makes sense. I guess if you don't look under the Hood. But I didn't report on this because it would be weird for me to report on a company I'm working at. But I ended up talking to a lot of people about it anyway. And it seems like what was happening under the hood was you guys took the podcast network out, and I guess you're saying you were approached by buyers. You definitely brought it out, offered to other folks. There were a bunch of people who were interested in the podcast network. Again, the thing I'm recording this on. And then you at some point added New york magazine and vox.com to that. But most of the other buyers only wanted the podcast network, and it doesn't seem like anybody was dying to buy the other site. So what is that, first of all? Is that right?
- [06:16]
Jim Bankoff
No, well, not exactly. Some of it is right, some of it isn't. It's true. We were approached from the outside about originally the podcast network. And by the way, with regard to Vox, we'd always kind of contemplated that Vox was part of that because Vox, so much of what Vox does is, by the way, for those listening, there's Vox Media and then there's Vox. But so much of what Vox does is podcasts and video.
- [06:38]
Peter Kafka
Today Explained is a very, very, very popular podcast.
- [06:40]
Jim Bankoff
And it's not just Today Explained, that's the primary driver.
- [06:43]
Peter Kafka
And That's a top 10 podcast.
- [06:44]
Jim Bankoff
It's a top 10 podcast, but there's some other big ones in there. And there's also a massive YouTube channel that, you know. And so, you know, I think the majority of its revenue comes from things other than what I'll call tech space, although it has a great tech space program too, of course, so always been contemplated as part of it. But yes, we got some outside interest. We didn't take it too seriously at first, but then we thought to ourselves, wow, this is a different kind of business, a growth business. And maybe it should have in business speak, its own capital structure, its own ownership structure. Maybe we should think about that and maybe it makes sense. And we did. Then the fact that New York magazine came along was a little bit more based on initially their idea, James Murdoch's idea. Yes. And we walked through the logic of it and made particular sense for the kind of company they're creating. And I think it makes a lot of sense as we think about it together. And so we got our heads around it. The process moved kind of quickly at that point, and here we are today. I will say that the part that wasn't exactly accurate is I think there's interest in Literally every single part of the business. But we're not looking to just to break things up for the sake of breaking things up. We're looking to be successful and create the right culture and the right environment for success. And so we don't expect to break things up beyond what we did today.
- [08:07]
Peter Kafka
I guess what I was trying to get to is it seems like the thing at least media buyers were most interested in was the podcast network. And I'm wondering why you think that appeals to them more than other properties.
- [08:20]
Jim Bankoff
Well, I'll question the premise. It kind of depends. Certain types of investors were. But having said that, I'll go along with the question.
- [08:27]
Peter Kafka
I talked to one of them, the CEO Versant at this table last week. He said, you know, I didn't. The thing I wanted was the podcast, not the other stuff.
- [08:34]
Jim Bankoff
No, no, but you're. But then you're generalizing his.
- [08:36]
Peter Kafka
No, that I talked to others.
- [08:37]
Jim Bankoff
But it doesn't matter because I grant you that it's an exciting property and, and you know, there's some obvious reasons for those your listeners understand this stuff. Well, first of all, it's an extraordinarily high growth property, which makes it attractive upwards of 40% per year for quite some time.
- [08:52]
Peter Kafka
And what's driving that? Audio, video?
- [08:55]
Jim Bankoff
All of the above. All the above. It taps in another thing that's driving t what we call the creator economy. Vox Media podcast network approaches it in a certain way though, which I think is about as kind of premium, as thoughtful as you can get. So there's a lot of great approaches. Some focus on a given category, sports, comedy, et cetera. What we tend to focus on are sort of the best at what they do, whether it's Brene Brown and Adam Grant or Kara and Scott or today Explain we go out. I should say criminal, I should say cafe with Preet. I can go on and I don't want to leave anyone else, but I have to because there are dozens of them. But what they all tend to have in common is they are thoughtful and they are smart. They could be funny, they could be analytical. They all have their own approach. But it's a highly curated network that still has scale number six on PodTrack, which is the ranking system for these things. We're not after scale for scale's sake, but we are after quality scale. And that's what we've achieved. And I think that's part of what made it so interesting to people.
- [09:57]
Peter Kafka
And it's also a network where in my case, and I think for many of Your talent, they're not. Your employees sort of have a vendor vendee relationship. And is that part of the appeal as well?
- [10:07]
Jim Bankoff
It's about split. You know, I don't even know the exact split, but. But, you know, as you pointed out today. Explain. Top 10 is. Is. Is produced internally. And then, yes, we have great partners as well.
- [10:19]
Peter Kafka
But I mean, is the idea that sort of. This is a talent business. You guys have relationships with talent, but don't have to pay the overhead of keeping them employed full time. You don't have to pay. Deal with their health insurance, et cetera.
- [10:30]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah, I don't really view it that way because, you know, we may not pay their health insurance, but we in some cases pay them millions of dollars because they.
- [10:39]
Peter Kafka
You're like, it's not free. That's just saying it's a different. It's a different profile.
- [10:43]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah, it's a different economic. Here's how I like to think about it is like we're open to different economic relationships. I mean, since we're fully disclosing, we have one with you. And depending on what makes sense for the creator and what makes sense for our business, we come to an understanding on that. And different people have different needs, et cetera. We tried to accommodate that where it makes sense for our business to do so.
- [11:05]
Peter Kafka
You talked about being here from the beginning and sort of putting this architecture together. So let's go back when you bought the company I was working at in 2015, Kerry Swisher and Waltberg. Walt Mossberg's All Things. No, it was called Recode back then. You bought it then, and at the time you were building this house of brands. And the idea was, we're going to have lots and lots of different verticals. They're all knitted together. And really sort of the main idea was, we can take this. We'll have more scale and we'll use that scale to work at the time, partners, primarily Facebook, but all the platforms. When I started, I think you guys were all excited about making original video for Snapchat, and I was really depressed. I'm like, I can't make video for Snapchat. What am I going to do? Obviously, things have changed. I'm wondering, as you look back and see sort of how you built the company, are there things you go, oh, I really wish we wouldn't have done that? Or do you say, no, I understood why we did that. It made sense at the time. And that was just the evolution of the company.
- [12:01]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah. I think both with all humility gone in wrong directions on many occasions. Thankfully, we've gone in right directions in more occasions, and that's why we've been successful. And I'm proud of what we've done. Very proud. For me, it's been close to two decades and I started off as CEO of SB Nation, which I'm still extraordinarily proud of. SB Nation in the changing environment, it's killing it right now, but. But media changes and media evolves. I'm proud to say that in the past 20 years, really I would say maybe the only media company that I can think of, at least that has from the ground up, built category leading brands. SB Nation, I just mentioned the Verge, Vox, and then of course the Vox Media podcast network. All from whole clout, all from scratch. Most people are lucky to do it once we did it at least four times. We wound up having to sell Polygon, but I'd put that on the list as well, too. So we built the things that are enduring in leaders and then we also acquired things. And when we acquired things, I think we did very well with most of them. For instance, iter, which already had started out and other people started it, but we were able to take it and grow it and expand it to what it is today. It was an elite, but kind of small site, and it's still elite, and now it's big and it's really the leader in its category. But whether it's iter, whether it is, most notably, I suppose, on the acquisition front, New York Magazine, New York Magazine is older than me and saying something, and it's been around for, I guess, 58 years. And it had its own culture. And David Haskell and Pam Wasserstein really are the life force business and editorial of making that place so successful. But I think we created the right conditions for it to continue to grow, to build an amazing subscriber business that is upwards of 400,000 subscribers, growing at over 20% a year. On the subscription front, most importantly, its quality is not only its quality is getting better and better today. What I am here to celebrate is not this transaction. What I am here to celebrate is winning two major asmys, that's our Magazine awards, including General Excellence, which are the Oscars of magazine. And the New York Magazine team, led by David Haskell, won the Best Picture equivalent, which is the General Excellence award. And I bring that up because that's for me what it's about, that and running a good business. And I'm so proud that we have been stewards of that asset and the rest to get us to the place where we are. So yes, there are plenty of things that I can talk about that weren't successes too, but we had enough successes and I'm really proud that we're really. I think there's a lot of great stuff that we were able to accomplish.
- [14:52]
Peter Kafka
Stipulate did great stuff. You hired me, you kept me employed at the top of the list. Is there one major do over. I guess I'm really thinking about is Facebook. The thing you regret the most. Yeah, listen, all depending on them.
- [15:04]
Jim Bankoff
Let's be honest about all the platforms. You know, I'm careful to say that in some senses we couldn't have existed without these platforms. You know, if I go back, you
- [15:15]
Peter Kafka
know you started this company with YouTube.
- [15:16]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah, I'm a student of media and like until the Internet you had to have a radio tower or a printing press and a license for the radio tower and a local monopoly for the printing press. And so, so I had no way of breaking into that. And then along comes the Internet and we can do that. And then along comes Google and Facebook and you can be seen with those things and distributed those things. Now the problem is the rug got pulled out from under us. And I think in some cases in not entirely ethical ways, those companies don't have any responsibility in some senses to us. But problems start coming in where they take the content, particularly in this AI age, they effectively steal the content and then they use it to make their own services and to charge their own customers and advertisers for. So that's a problem. But having said that, we don't sit around making excuses. We make great products and we have at Vox Media, because we have strong brands, we're able to build direct consumer connections. And so yes, like algorithms change. They come and go. You can't ignore them, but you also can't become reliant on them again.
- [16:25]
Peter Kafka
When I came here, the real, real focus besides Facebook was video. Video, video making video for platforms, but also selling. We're going to make television shows and movies. Everyone is trying to do it did. But this, the selling to networks and movie theaters, that business did not really pan out again. Didn't really pan out for most people.
- [16:45]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah, I mean just we had some great.
- [16:48]
Peter Kafka
I wanted to wind it up because it occurs to me that the hey, let's make stuff, let's make video. People will consume video, people will pay to have their ads and video was right directionally and it seems like you now have ended up up in the right place because your Podcast network is essentially a video network. And I'm wondering if there's a lesson there for people who are thinking about building businesses now.
- [17:09]
Jim Bankoff
No, that's a good question. In our industry, we all joke about the pivot to video cliche, but the
- [17:16]
Peter Kafka
reason, I mean everyone says pivot video was this terrible mistake because again, you feel like the rug was pulled out from you. But like the idea of making things that people want to watch is not a bad idea.
- [17:24]
Jim Bankoff
Yeah, no, let's not overcomplicate things. Like, people like watching stuff, they also like reading stuff, they also like listening to stuff. But, but they mostly, you know, if you did a pie chart, most of them like watching stuff. We, we were early, everyone, the industry was early. But like, let's also be honest, we carry around 4K screens in our pockets and we can use those 4 screen, 4K screens and, and it just, it took a little while for that all to be figured out and without the fits and starts. We want to be where we are today. So, you know, if, if you're not, not failing, you're not trying hard enough. I know that's easy to say as a CEO and you know, because what happens is you invest in something and it doesn't work out and then that often has an impact on people's careers. We don't take that lightly. But at the same time, risk is a two sided coin and if you, the chances you don't take or the shots on goal that you don't take, you won't score. And so you're going to miss a lot of shots. But if you don't take the right shots, you're not going to score. And I'm not trying to be all sports cliches, but it's just the truth. And you know, the medium is progressing and thankfully we have been an innovator there. And some of the innovations went down rabbit holes. Others enough were successful that we're here today.
- [18:38]
Peter Kafka
Last history question and also a chance for you to celebrate yourself and your management here. For a long time when people talked about the new upstarts in digital media, they were focused on BuzzFeed and Vice. Those were competitive companies. Those companies had higher valuations, they had more buzz, and they had a much harder landing. Last week we just had Buzzfeed being sold for a theoretical 120 million dol, maybe less than that today. Vox Media is not where you wanted it to be 10 years ago, but it seems like it's in a much better place. How do you account for that?
- [19:12]
Jim Bankoff
A lot of different things. I want to thank our employees and our culture that we've built. I thank them in a long letter today. But we have people who come to work every day and just focus on quality work. I brought up the ASME Awards as an example, but there are so many examples of our outstanding work. But in addition to the team and our business partners who are wonderful to work with, I want to point out our investors, too, because often in this industry, investors sort of get a bad rap because they, you know, they're the money guys. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I'm going to name a few by name. I'm going to start with the first investor, a guy named Andrew Braccia of Excel Partners, who has been with us for about 18 years. Those of you who know this industry know that an average fund life is probably like seven years or something like that. He's never been impatient. He's always been supportive. And. And I will list all of them. Our recent investor, Jay Penske, same way Jay knows this business inside and out, has always been supportive of us. And of course, you mentioned Versant, and Versant is now run by Mark, who I've known for decades, always been supportive. But it wasn't just Mark. It was Steve Burke who used to run NBCUniversal. It was the folks at Comcast who've been wonderful coastal adventures, the Wasserstein family, who have been guiding New York magazine and ultimately merged it with us. And I can go on. There have been other great ones, too, but they. Their patience and their understanding of our business and all that time, because hopefully you have some journalists listening to. Never once in the 18 years of this company is any investor ever leaned on me, ever winked at me, ever suggested that we change anything in any of our stories, any of our journalism whatsoever. How incredible is that? The patience with the capital, the patience with our editorial freedom. And these are people who know people who have friends who we might not write good things about. Never. I mean, isn't that incredible? And I think with James Murdoch and then with the existing investors staying on with the rest of what is now Vox Media, that's not going to change at all, that commitment to editorial integrity. So that's what makes it work. And that plus great people and a culture that we can build.
- [21:31]
Peter Kafka
So I want to ask you about Murdoch and what's going to happen, but I also why I'm shocked that you are going to work for James Murdoch. I would have thought you said you spent 18 years on this project. You and I have talked about this It's a lot of work. You've had to go through a lot of ugly stuff. You've had to lay off a lot of people. It's a difficult work. I'm not saying that you laying people off as worse than getting laid off, but you understand my point. I would have thought you would said I would like to do anything other than this same job I've been doing for 18 years. So why are you going to work for them?
- [22:02]
Jim Bankoff
There are probably a lot of media people listening to this podcast. I want to do your podcast in particular because there are a lot of media people who listen to this and those of us who are in this business, we know that it is a lot of work. It's a lot of work because it's always changing. There's a lot of work. I always. And people debate me. But I think media is the fastest and most dynamically changing business of everything. Because not only is it subject to the technological changes, one day it's podcast, the next day it's short form video, etc. But it's also built on societal change. It's different topics that we care about and getting experts on those topics, different formats.
- [22:38]
Peter Kafka
It's a great business. I love being in it. But why keep doing this thing you've been doing? Why not either start something new or go work at some place that's established and just have an easier life?
- [22:48]
Jim Bankoff
I'm not looking for an easy life easier. I'm looking for a fulfilling life because there's so much change. My job changes even if I stay in the same role in some ways. It's always about reinvention. It's always something new. And the platform now this will be a new journey again. Six weeks until we get started on it, roughly. But. But it's going to be a new journey. We're so excited, you know, for the part of the business that I'll be running at that point. We have big ambitions for it. You know, we are going to be the preeminent home for talent and we need to build, keep building. We have a great head start and we're going to. But we need to build on that head start. We need to continue. You know, I mentioned 400,000 New York magazine subscribers. We want to get that number to a million as soon as possible. But we want to do it the right way. We're not going to take shortcuts. We're going to grow it the right way. And of course, VO has so much potential as a multimedia platform. And so do you think the Business
- [23:41]
Peter Kafka
changes in a meaningful way. Or is the idea that James Murdoch likes what you bought, likes what you're doing, he's bought you and says, keep doing that. Or is the idea, now that I bought you, I'm going to hypercharge this with more capital or focus on this.
- [23:55]
Jim Bankoff
We'll be looking for ways to take what we have. Yes. And then accelerate it. And I think it's not just about capital because we're going to continue to be a disciplined operating company. We're not going to throw money at things like venture style. We are a profitable company. We're going to grow our profitability. But we have a steward who gets this business extraordinarily well. Sometimes you have to make choices between capital and knowledge in an industry or values in an industry. In the Murdochs, in lupa, we have partners who have it all. They have deep expertise. You know this business as well as I do. And you know, when you're sitting across someone who, who has lived it and experienced it and is on the level with you, that's them. Secondly, they have the capital and then thirdly, they have the values that matter. You know, if you look at not only how they've conducted themselves, but how, what they've invested in on the nonprofit sphere as well. Catherine's incredible work, Frank. You know, helping journalists and journalism nonprofits and local journalism. They get it. And so, you know, we're going to continue to be disciplined, but we're going to be very, very ambitious.
- [25:09]
Peter Kafka
What changes for the folks who are working for the properties that aren't getting acquired. Theme on this show for years and years and years is how difficult it is to make a living in media, specifically digital media, specifically selling ads on webpages. They have things that are not. The Verge has the Vergecast. There's things that are not digital web pages that they sell, but that's still their primary business. How do you think they're going to fare?
- [25:37]
Jim Bankoff
I think they're. I think there's a lot of excitement over there. Start at the top with Ryan, who. There's been a lot of great things about putting this together. Maybe at the top for me is seeing Ryan's success and I'm going to miss being a day to day partner with him. Although we'll be working together on a whole lot of things.
- [25:58]
Peter Kafka
That's Ryan Polley, your chief revenue officer. He's going to run the new.
- [26:01]
Jim Bankoff
Yes, thank you. It's exciting to see that. But each one of those brands that will report into Ryan are in really good shape. Getting stronger. There was a, you know, they each like most, most media brands had to go through the changes particularly brought upon by the changes of Google Search. But they have gone through that now.
- [26:23]
Peter Kafka
So that is a self sufficient media company.
- [26:25]
Jim Bankoff
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, having said that, they'll have plenty of options for where to take it from there. And you know, but it's sticking together and you know, they're, they're, they're going to each one of those brands while getting some benefit from being, have their own business strategies, have their own audiences, they can go to market together from a sales proposition and get plenty of scale, but they're all in a position to really thrive. Eater, the Verge, SB Nation, PopSugar, the Dodo. All, all really strong brands in their own right.
- [26:58]
Peter Kafka
Last question for you. Do you have a commitment that you're going to stay X number of years at lupa?
- [27:06]
Jim Bankoff
You know, like, like all of us, like, you know, we're going to, we're people of free will. And my free will is I'm going to stay at LUPA as I possibly can because I'm excited to, to build this. But it's not, it's not, I think, you know, not to be coy about your question, like I'm, I'm doing this because I want to do it, not because I have to, it's not a
- [27:24]
Peter Kafka
requirement of the deal.
- [27:26]
Jim Bankoff
No, I'm doing this because I, I want to do it and, and I want to lead this company forward and I want to partner with James and his team to do that. And you know, they also have other companies, Art Basel, Tribeca, they have investor big, huge investments in India and other things. And so there's not gonna be any force synergy across those things, but you can see what they're doing to kind of build things, particularly focus on things that in the world of AI and a lot of like synthetic experiences, like they're very much investing in real human experiences and, and I like that thesis and I want to be part of that. I want to be a leader there. I've devoted my career to this. I love this. I sincerely love it. And I, and I, you know, today's an exciting day to kind of recommit to that mission and I'm certainly committed.
- [28:13]
Peter Kafka
Jim Bakoff for the next, what, six
- [28:15]
Jim Bankoff
weeks CEO of Vox Media and then we're still going to call it Vox Media after that.
- [28:19]
Peter Kafka
Okay, I'm going to keep calling this the Vox Media Podcast Network.
- [28:22]
Jim Bankoff
That's what it's called. That's what it will be called. Okay.
- [28:23]
Peter Kafka
So I'm going to keep working with you.
- [28:25]
Jim Bankoff
Absolutely. All right. Good deal.
- [28:26]
Peter Kafka
Good deal.
- [28:26]
Jim Bankoff
All right.
- [28:26]
Peter Kafka
Thanks, Jim.
- [28:27]
Jim Bankoff
All right. Thanks, Peter.