← Chapter & Verse: Storytime from the Stacks
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- [00:03]
Debbie McCullough
Welcome to Chapter and Verse Story Time from the Stacks. This is an original podcast series from the Michigan Library association and the library cooperatives of Michigan. We'd like to give a shout out to our episode sponsor, Midwest Tape and hoopla. I'm Debbie McCullough. I'm the executive director of the Michigan Library association where we lead the advancement of all libraries through an advocacy, education and engagement. And I'm joined by my co host today, Ellen Geschel.
- [00:37]
Ellen Geschel
I'm the director of the Superiorland Library Cooperative. We are one of 11 library cooperatives in Michigan and we serve 35 member public libraries across our region, which is the Upper Peninsula and the Northern Lower Peninsula. And we provide all kinds of different resources and tools to our members. The economy of scale, benefits, professional development opportunities. We do a lot of consulting with our libraries and a whole lot more. So that's a little bit about superiorland.
- [01:06]
Debbie McCullough
Great. So Dylan and I are going to be your hosts today and this is our fifth episode where we're hoping that we provide insight and inspiration from the Michigan library leaders and who are bringing purpose to their work and are proving that libraries positively change the communities that we live and work in. And with us today is Amanda Griggs, who is the cataloger and technical services specialist from the Dickinson County Library in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Welcome to the podcast, Amanda. We're so, so happy that you're joining us.
- [01:42]
Amanda Griggs
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:44]
Debbie McCullough
So tell us, we'll just start at the beginning, right? Maybe not birth, but we'll start at the beginning of, you know, tell us a little bit about your background and maybe what inspires you at your library. We'll get to that a little bit later too, but I'm more interested what's a catal and a technical services specialist.
- [02:03]
Amanda Griggs
So cataloger is basically anything you see on a library shelf, usually that has a barcode, has a label, has been touched or viewed by a cataloger. So any item that we order here at the Dickinson County Library for any of our other two branches, I add into the system either by importing a record or creating a new record or adding to an existing and get it prepared to go on the shelf, barcode it, get labels printed and work on the processing of that item so that it is then ready for patrons to take and go. The technical services specialist side is kind of a catch all. I occasionally help with tech education here at the Dickinson County Library, especially with our staff, teaching them about how to help our patrons with Libby with Canopy, Mel databases, things like that. But Essentially, for years, the cataloger kind of semi dealt with any tech stuff, website related, anything like that. And so it's, it's kind of a catch all.
- [03:02]
Debbie McCullough
Well, we need people like you. Most of us out on the outside need you. So. But tell us a little bit about your background too. Where'd you come from?
- [03:11]
Amanda Griggs
Yeah, so I was originally from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but both of my parents are from the Iron Mountain, Kingsford area in the Upper Peninsula. I have lived here since I was 10 years old. So even though I say I'm a cheese head by birth, I'm a yooper by raising. And I went to school downstate. So I've kind of traversed the wide breadth of Michigan. I did three years at my college, Albion College's library, which is where I first got the librarian bug. And then when I moved home, I started working here at Dickinson and I've been here ever since.
- [03:42]
Debbie McCullough
Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.
- [03:45]
Ellen Geschel
So take us back a little bit further too. Amanda. That's great to hear about how you got your start in libraries, but it'd also be interesting to hear, you know, what's your first memory of a library.
- [03:56]
Amanda Griggs
Oh, so that is definitely going back. My mom always says that I was a sponge as a child. She could not read or teach me enough. I was constantly asking questions. So she in fact taught me to read before I even went to school because she didn't have time anymore. I had a sibling and she needed to deal with that, so she taught me to read. So I was reading chapter books by five. So the library was a big part of my weekly schedule as a kid. She would bring me to a library at least once a week, if not twice, because I would read through the book so fast. And so my entire childhood is just snapshots of all the libraries that I've gone to in all the places I lived. It was always a safe place for me because I was always welcomed there. The librarians always did a wonderful job. They were never shy of telling the curious kid who couldn't read enough, like, read this, try this. You like this one. And so it never felt like I was asking too many questions or being annoying like some people might have felt. They were always so wonderful. So when we moved to Iron Mountain, the best part of the house we bought was that it was only a few blocks away from the library. So I was able to ride my bike here and with a backpack. And I would cram it to the point where you could barely close the zipper. And then I would ride it home and read Everything and just repeat ad nauseam.
- [05:18]
Debbie McCullough
I love the concept of seeing you with this big backpack on.
- [05:22]
Amanda Griggs
Like, you know, it was easily half my size. It was, it was ridiculously large. And the ladies here got very used to just being like, oh, she's going to go in that direction. Just let her go, let her pick out what she wants. She'll be back. I was in and out of this building so many times.
- [05:40]
Debbie McCullough
I love it that your home is, you know, that you're your so called community. And being able to ride your bike to the library and having access to all the diversity of books and the quantity of books that you know are in the library is so important. We talk a lot about, you know, age appropriateness, but you obviously in your reading skills, I think it was important that you had access to things that maybe others were just getting into too.
- [06:11]
Amanda Griggs
So that is something that was especially relevant for me. My mom always made a point of saying that she would never deny me the chance to read something if I was interested. And she would ask questions and say, I'm always available if you're concerned or you don't understand something. But one of my family's favorite stories is when we were living in Virginia, I was about nine years old, we had a blackout and of course, no tv, nothing to do. And I had run out of books. Everything I had I had already read. And I was climbing the walls, I was so bored. And so my mom said, I have this. It's scary and it's maybe a little old for you, but if you want it, you can read it. And so she handed me Cujo and I read Stephen keene's Cujo at 9 years old in a blackout. And I loved it. I could not put it down. And in fact, it was the movie adaptation version. So it had like pictures from the movie. And I realized from the pictures in the book that they had changed the ending of the book for the movie. And I asked my mom afterwards, I was like, it looks like the boy lived. I'm pretty sure he dies in the book, Mom. And she's like, well, yes, they changed it in the movie. And I looked at her and I said, cop out. You should never change the ending of a book.
- [07:20]
Ellen Geschel
That's great that your mom was that involved in helping you. It's funny, my daughter's nine right now and reads well beyond her age. So it's always a challenge to have to find like the right book that meets.
- [07:33]
Debbie McCullough
Don't read about Cujo, though.
- [07:36]
Ellen Geschel
Maybe she's not ready for Cujo.
- [07:39]
Debbie McCullough
So that kind of leads to. You talked a lot about reading, right? And I think a lot of people think about librarians sitting in the library, and that's their job, is to read books. So, you know, what do you wish everybody understood about your job?
- [07:55]
Amanda Griggs
I wish they understood that I would kill for that to be my job. If I could read as part of my job, it would be wonderful. Unfortunately, libraries are far more involved and have so many tasks. Not only desk work with, you know, checking people in and out and making sure that they help them with any research they're doing. But really a lot of the technical side, especially for me as the cataloger, most of my job is kind of more of like a data input function. I'm, you know, adjusting those records or creating records, getting things all set up on the back end. And so much of library work is really public service work, is really figuring out what the public needs, helping with programming, making sure that our facility is the most welcoming and engaged for as much of our population as it can be. And that's not as plug and play and easy as people might think. It requires a lot of research development and small adjustments over time and a lot of trial and error, but it's really rewarding work. I feel like I wish people could just come and even if they're not a reader or somebody who thinks they'd enjoy a library, but really to just go and experience one and just watch how people come in. And the different kinds of people we see, we see everybody from readers like me, people with kids that, you know, come for programming, and then also we have, you know, as far back as our homeless population that uses us a lot, too, because it's a safe place where you can come and sit and you won't be chased away. And so libraries are so vast and different than people think. They are really community hubs in a big way.
- [09:31]
Ellen Geschel
Amanda, you touched on some of the rewarding elements of working in a library. I think for a lot of people that work in libraries, part of the draw is probably the kind of feel good nature of knowing that you're able to help someone get what they need. Can you share a memorable moment when you felt like you really made a difference in a patron's life?
- [09:51]
Amanda Griggs
So this is a very personal moment for me as well, because the person involved was my dad. So my mom was always very involved in helping me with reading. But my dad had some dyslexia as a child and as a young man. And so other than reading, he did for work or for when he Went to school, he really didn't read for fun. And he had always been like that as long as I can remember. But when I started working here, he had a job about an hour away, and he had a commute hour both ways, back and forth. And he was telling me one day, complaining that the radio only played the same few songs, because, of course, in the up, you only get access to so many radio stations. The airwaves don't reach very far. And so I was saying, well, if you're tired of the radio, have you ever thought about doing, like, an audiobook? And he's like, no, I'm not a reader. I wouldn't be interested. I'm like, you know what? Let me pick something for you. And so my dad and our family are huge Green Bay Packer fans and have been since the team was founded. And so I got him a biography about Vince Lombardi, and he listened to it in the car on his commute and came back to me. He was like, that's great. You know, I knew a bunch of it, but there's stuff I didn't know. Said, well, what else do you got from me? And I gave him Monuments man. And that was the be all, end all. My dad went from doing just little bits like that to now he reads almost as much as I do, and always saying, you know, sometimes I don't even get up in the morning and watch espn. I'm listening to my book and, you know, enjoying that. And to see him become a reader has been one of the most rewarding things for my career.
- [11:19]
Debbie McCullough
Yeah, turn it around a little bit now. So you just talked about maybe how you made a difference in someone's life, but you're choosing and helping someone have the same love of the library and love of reading that you do. But, you know, what about maybe a patron who's made an impact on your life?
- [11:38]
Amanda Griggs
Oh, one thing I can think about is when I was first starting here, and I, you know, I looked like an infant. I was, you know, fresh face out of college, and I had somebody come in who really needed help with working on something, and I was helping them do some research, and they came back like a week later, and they pulled me aside and they said, you know, you're really good at this. I want you to know you're good at this. You're very personable. You're good with working on people. You made me feel heard, and you helped me, and you listened. And she goes, I can tell you're new, and I want you to know you should do this. You're good at it. And it just gave me a sense of validation that as being as young as I was and as inexperienced, totally made me feel more settled in that job than I could have been at that time without that patron taking that time to really say, like, thank you for what you did and this is what you should do.
- [12:36]
Debbie McCullough
It's those little, it's those little things, right, that just always, you know, takes us to another level of understanding what, you know, when somebody tells you what you're really good at, all of a sudden it's like, wow, I can do a hundred more things now. You know?
- [12:54]
Amanda Griggs
Exactly.
- [12:55]
Debbie McCullough
Let's take a quick break to hear more from our episode sponsor, Hoopla.
- [13:01]
Amanda Griggs
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- [13:19]
Ellen Geschel
So, Amanda, you've been familiar with and visiting libraries since you were very small. At what point was there a spark or was there a moment where you started to think, this could be something I make a career out of or something I'm really interested in doing?
- [13:33]
Amanda Griggs
You know, it wasn't until I went to college and started working at Albion's library because I always thought it's weird you see these people doing it, but you don't think it's a career you can do. You know, everybody talks about, oh, you should be a doctor, you should be a lawyer, you should do, you know, the big careers everybody always promotes. And so when I went to college, I didn't know what I was going to do. I really had no idea other than I loved learning, I loved English, I loved history, so I double majored in that. And I thought, maybe I'll work in museum or, you know, maybe I'll become a professor. That seems like what you do with an English or a history degree. And then I applied to work at the library because I had had a RA my freshman year, who was also in the sorority, ended up joining, who said, you know what? You as a person, you'd be a perfect fit for the library. You can get work done there. They let you work on your papers or do homework when you know, it's not super busy. It's a very comforting, quiet place. I think you'd do great for that. And so I was lucky enough to get in as a sophomore and work there for my sophomore, junior and senior year. And it was there getting to interact with the librarians who worked there, see how they set up the library, how they helped my fellow students. And I, you know, I worked in our periodical section, so I was helping a lot of people with research, using the microfilm, you know, kind of observing people while they were studying to make sure if they needed anything. But it was much more the atmosphere. Just sometimes when you go to a place and all of a sudden you're like, this feels like home. And I didn't know it what that felt like in a place that wasn't home. And that's how it felt. I just felt like it was like something clicked in my brain and went, I could do this, this could work. And it wasn't if not for the fact when I moved home, I didn't know what I was going to do. I wasn't sure if I was going to go get my master's or what I was going to do post bachelor's degree. But within like a week after I moved home, my grandma came to me and she said, the library has a position, they're getting a filling person for the summer. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that they were hiring. I didn't know what you needed to do to work at a library. And thankfully our library, you didn't need a master's degree necessarily. And so I applied and got the job. And then within a few months the director called me and said, we have a part time position opening. We're going to open it up to the community, but we want you please apply. And that starting me down the road. And I guess I moved from part time to full time and they'll have to bury me in the backyard. I'm not leaving anytime soon.
- [15:55]
Debbie McCullough
How has your role changed though from when you first walked in the door as a part time staff person? What are all of the things that you have accomplished in those 16 years? Like did you do children's work? You're doing programming, you're doing cataloging. I mean, how did you grow?
- [16:12]
Amanda Griggs
Yeah, so I have really been a jack of all trades here at the Dickinson County Library. Started as part time as an assistant to the children's and YA specialist, helping them with like story time and craft kits and things. And then I became our PR specialist. Then I became our YA specialist and did YA programming. Then they combined PR and YA and I did that for a while where I was doing all of the newsletter and website and doing YA programming, ordering. And then I became cataloger. So I've done everything from Youth to ya to adult. The technical side of it. And one of the things that's been the weirdest is I started out being the baby of this place, the youngest. And now I am, other than our director, the longest serving staff member that has been here in terms of, like, hours. So sometimes there's a lot of just imposter syndrome where I look around, I'm like, I should not be the adult here. What has happened? Because I've been here so long. But then I realized, like, how much I've seen change and grow and I've been a part of. We've made a lot of changes here that I helped do because I find every bit of librarianship fascinating. And if anybody needs help with something, I don't care if it's part of my job or not, I will be happy to throw in a pair of hands, because every little bit of this place requires every one of us to do it. And I just find it all so fascinating. So, yeah, just seeing that change of being so young and now having been here for so long, having people come to me and being like, well, Amanda will know she's been here the longest. And being like, how is it me?
- [17:43]
Debbie McCullough
You're the brain trust. I think Dylan and I probably started in the same place as, like, you know, you're so young, and now you look at yourself go, man, I think I'm the oldest one in the room now. We never don't. But it's experience and passion and all of those wonderful things that you're just when you're willing to kind of step in and do whatever it takes to make it successful, and you're challenged by it, yet you're excited about kind of what happens. I think that's the beauty in all of this. I see that in all of us in terms of how we've grown.
- [18:16]
Ellen Geschel
So that was the spirit of librarianship right there.
- [18:19]
Amanda Griggs
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Challenges give you your drive, make it worth it.
- [18:25]
Ellen Geschel
With all that experience, you know, thinking about 16 years, right, at Dickinson county, what would you say is something you wish you knew when you started work in libraries?
- [18:35]
Amanda Griggs
Oh, I wish I had known that it was okay to make mistakes because mistakes teach you and you learn from them. I was so afraid of getting it wrong, especially when I first started, that I was really reticent to take risks. And I was so afraid to give out ideas because I thought somebody would say I was stupid. And so I kept a lot of things inside and just tried to keep my head down and, like, tried to pay attention to what Everybody else was doing, but it was so just frightened. And I feel like that's really like an eldest daughter, like, did well in school thing, where, like, you're like, if I don't do well, they're all gonna hate me and I'm gonna be terrible. So you get. You, like, get stuck in that mindset. And I wish I had been a little bit more open. Because as time went on and I realized none of my co workers were gonna say I was an idiot. Nobody was gonna say that I was wrong for, you know, making mistakes, because we all do it. There has not been a day in my life that I've not accidentally done something wrong or forgot something that then I realized later, like, oh, I didn't remember that and I knew it and what did I do? But you can always apologize, learn, grow, try again. Especially in a library. I feel like trying again. Programming, for instance, so many programs I tried that we'd get one or two kids. And you feel so demoralized. Cause you put so much work into it, so much effort, and just. It falls apart. And sometimes it took the fourth time you do that program for you to get people. And sometimes you realize it's just not gonna work in your area and you move on. But if you're afraid that, you know, if you don't get it right the first time, you'll never do it. And so just trying, trying is the most important thing.
- [20:11]
Debbie McCullough
That's so true for any career. Like, you know, when we try and we don't succeed, it gives us just motivation to kind of go in the next place too. So. But Amanda, tell us a little bit about maybe how you work with the community and what your community thinks about the work of the library and things like that. What's the connection point where you make the dots connect? Like, your library has four walls, yet we have to get outside of those four walls to do our good work, Right?
- [20:45]
Amanda Griggs
Yeah. So I used to do way more community outreach when I was in programming, especially when I was the YA specialist. I used to go into the schools, um, the upper middle grades and high school grades, and I would go into the English classes and talk to them about appropriate sourcing, how to use databases in order to do research papers and things like that. And like how to cite things that were proper and Internet safety, all sorts of things like that. We used to go in and help the kids. There's a couple schools in the area that give Chromebooks and laptops and iPads to the kids. So I would help them get set up with Libby and show them how to log in with a card and get items on there. So I don't necessarily do as much community outreach because I'm more behind the scenes now. But still, I feel like a lot of the community outreach is just to be available. I've had people come up to me in the store and be like, I know you from the library. I have a weird question. Can I ask you about this book, or do you know what I'm thinking of? And I was like, you know what? Sure. I had a friend of mine from high school send me a message on Christmas because his mom had gotten a Kindle and he wanted help figuring out how to set it up for her with ebooks. And I was like, you know what? Sure. I'm okay with that. This is my job. This is what I do. I'm not just a librarian in these four walls. I'm a librarian outside of these walls. And there's nothing more rewarding to me than to help the public with, you know, thinking of us when they need something and then be able to facilitate that. So I think a lot of what we do, too, is just reiterating to our community what we have, because you don't have to be one kind of library user. We have people that just come here to check out movies. We have people that just come here to read the paper and then leave. And they don't interact with us very much. We have people who come and just want to talk to us. They come in and use the computers, and then they tell us how their day's been going, and, you know, we get to know them by name. And then we have people who bring their kids for story time and get tons of books and are very involved in all the different, you know, things. So there is no wrong way to use your library. If you're coming in with an open heart and just looking for something to enjoy. It doesn't have to just be books. It doesn't have to be that you're a good reader or a bad reader or a reader at all. You can just come in to enjoy a safe community space, and we really try to facilitate that and make that open to our public and just let them know that we're here for them, and we wouldn't exist without them, and we want to be there for them.
- [23:10]
Debbie McCullough
Availability. It's not a nine to five. Dylan. We have room for one more question. The interviews go so fast, so why don't you take the lead in asking the last question?
- [23:21]
Ellen Geschel
Amanda, your time in libraries, you've probably seen a lot of big changes and shifts and ways that libraries have had to adapt, whether it's to changing information needs or technological advancements. What do you think are the biggest challenges that libraries have to look to in the next 10 years that we might need to be ready to shift focus or adapt to?
- [23:45]
Amanda Griggs
Yeah, it's funny, if you had asked me this two years ago, my answer would have been very different. I've seen the advancement of ebooks become very important in libraries, and it would have been more based on that technology. Unfortunately, I feel like the biggest concern that libraries really to be aware of is people who don't understand what libraries are about and who are afraid of things that maybe they don't understand or who have preconceived notions about what a library is. Therefore, and I think especially not just our Upper Peninsula or Michigan community, not even just countrywide, but globally, I think book banning has become a really big problem. And I think too, just people coming in thinking that libraries have an agenda. And I think that that is something that really should be dispelled, because the only agenda libraries have is providing access, and we're not here to judge anything that somebody wants to read. There are things we have in this library that I probably would never read, not because I think it's bad or wrong, but just because I'm a short man and I can only read so fast. But if somebody wants to read that in my community, I want them to have access to it. I want them to have it, and I want us to have a diverse collection. I mean, diverse in that multiple. There should be more than one viewpoint, more than one access point, and there should be multiple different ways to view a topic, because there are multiple sides to almost every single topic. And I think anyone in our community should be able to find a book that fits their viewpoint or something that they're interested in, and so should every other person. And I think the best thing libraries can continue to do is hammer on the point of we are here for everyone, even the people who use us and the people who don't, because maybe one day those people who don't use us will need us, and we want to be there for them. If any person who had tried to ban a book came in today and asked me for help with something, I would help them in a heartbeat, because I'm not here to come in with hate in my heart and to judge them for anything that they've done. I want to be there for them, and I want them to find what they're looking for. If they need help on a project, if they're looking for something to read, if they just need a nice place to sit and read the paper, that's what we're here for. Doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, you should have access to that. And so that's, that's the thing that worries me, is I don't want libraries to be shut down because people think that they are the only ones who know the right way to do it. I don't think I am. I don't think anybody is. I think libraries are great because of diverse opinions, diverse people, and a wide variety of them.
- [26:27]
Debbie McCullough
What a wonderful answer to a very difficult question that we have. And I love that you kind of put it in a global nature because that's we really are. You know, it's not just Michigan, it's not just the Upper Peninsula, it's not just the nation. We're looking at this globally as a big issue. So. Well, thank you so much for joining us. I totally enjoyed this conversation.
- [26:50]
Amanda Griggs
Thank you guys so much for having me. It was an honor.
- [26:53]
Ellen Geschel
Thank you, Amanda, for sharing your experience. It's been really special thanks to everyone.
- [26:58]
Debbie McCullough
For listening to the March episode of Chapter and Verse Storytime from the Stacks. We want you to join us each month for new episodes, and we want you to be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. We also wish to thank our episode sponsor, Midwest Tape and Hoopla, much appreciation for listening. And we'll see you in April when Andrea Estelle, the co op director at the Southwest Michigan Library Cooperative, will sit down with our guest, Sarah Skinner, the director of the Bridgman Public Library.