← Chapter & Verse: Storytime from the Stacks
Chapter & Verse: Storytime from the Stacks
Community First: Strengthening Services in a Resource-Limited Library
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- [00:03]
Dylan Geschel
Welcome to the chapter in Storytime from the Stacks, an original podcast series from the Michigan Library association and Library Cooperatives of Michigan. We would like to give a shout out to our episode sponsor, Midwest Tape and Hoopla. I'm Dylan Geschel, interim executive director of the Michigan Library association where we lead the advancement of all libraries through advocacy, education and engagement. And I'm joined today by my co host.
- [00:27]
Kate Pogila Andrade
I'm Kate Pogila Andrade. I'm the director at the Woodlands Library Cooperative.
- [00:31]
Dylan Geschel
Very happy to have you as our co host today, Kate. This is our 10th episode and in every episode we provide insight and inspiration from different Michigan library leaders that are bringing unique purpose to their work and are proving that libraries are a really positive force for change in their communities. With us today is Mary Gallup, director at the Clinton Township Public Library. Welcome to the podcast, Mary. Really nice to have you join us as well. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background as we get started.
- [01:02]
Mary Gallup
Hi, my name is Mary Gallup. As Dylan had said, I'm the director of the Clinton Township Public Library. I've been the director there for about two and a half years and I've worked here for six and a half years. I have a husband, two kids and three cats.
- [01:18]
Dylan Geschel
Thanks, Mary. And maybe one place we can start here is to talk a little bit about about why you chose to work in a library. What inspired you to get into that work and become a librarian?
- [01:29]
Mary Gallup
Everything started when my kids were young and I was looking for things for them to do. I was a stay at home mom at the time. We went to the Clinton Library and we were disappointed by what we saw there and I assumed that this was just how libraries were. And eventually I started going to other libraries in our county and, and I saw what they were doing and I got really excited and I knew that was what libraries are like. So I started volunteering at the Clinton Library. I was helping out around the desk, shelving, doing story time, other kinds of crafts and things like that. And then I started working as a page. And after about two months as a page, I was suddenly doing all of the programming and working 30 hours a week.
- [02:18]
Dylan Geschel
So you've done a little bit of everything?
- [02:20]
Mary Gallup
Yes.
- [02:21]
Dylan Geschel
And when you talk about visiting these other libraries and having these moments of inspiration, what kind of stuff were you seeing that that got you excited about libraries?
- [02:29]
Mary Gallup
The story times were night and day compared to what was going on at the Clinton Library. So the story time was fun, it was engaging. The librarian was really excited to Be in it. The kids sections were amazing. There were things for the kids to do. There was reasons for. For kids to visit the library.
- [02:49]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Well, I think, Dylan, a little bit of the perspective that I can bring to it, too, that you're also aware of is Clinton is a Class 1. When I came to the co op 12 years ago, there had been a director there for a very long time, and a beloved director. I believe her husband is still the building cleaner.
- [03:04]
Mary Gallup
Yes, he is.
- [03:06]
Kate Pogila Andrade
There was. There had been a long history of love for the library. But it's my understanding and my little bit of time with her, she was tired, another director came in, but her career then moved her on. So I think part of it is that perspective of resources, knowing that it's a class one surrounded by. I think your next smallest is a three.
- [03:26]
Mary Gallup
Yes.
- [03:26]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Yeah. So there's a little bit of size difference, resources, but there's a love. And that's what I've seen in Clinton and that. What Mary has mentioned is that she's got a board that really wants to do right for the library. It's a board that has agreed to do the board 101s. They're doing the training. And we don't have to get into it now, but at some point we can talk about where we've seen some struggles. Obviously, they've got a perpetual millage, so they're like their funding is safe, things like that. But they've got some tricky relationships. And it's also a community that isn't growing. The communities around them are. But they are also a lot of partners for potential district formation without a lot of wrangling. So there's some tricky local things going on there. But I will say the energy in the library. Clinton was one of the last ones we went into as a meeting before the pandemic. I do remember a specific meeting in that building because of other things that happened with some people who were no longer working at the co op. But it was one of the few times where I really wanted to physically involve myself with directors. And then the world shut down and the whole atmosphere changed in the building. I've been out a few times now, and it's. The energy at Clinton is. It's Mary and her team. And that's why I just was. So I wanted to. As we spent some time, I wanted to learn a little more about you, about what brought you as a mom. I'm a fellow mom. Maybe it's because I've been in libraries all my life, but I. We don't Go to the library. Sometimes I feel bad for that, but I brought my kid out of your library. And she still talks about it, but I think that says a lot. And it's. There's an energy and enthusiasm. And I know we talk a tiny bit about your. How your. Your husband's work. And so I thought, yeah, what a great opportunity to have this conversation. I could learn a little more about you. The other thing I will add is that between Kristen Fontaro and I would say it's mostly Kristin, because Neri was in one of the public library, the post pandemic cohort, and I got to audit that. So I was in some of the sessions with some of the groups, but Mary's now library school. We see that energy. We're like, get it while we can. And that just makes me so happy. I know libraries are. The change that we're seeing is. It's fast and furious. But to be able to gather, to grab that and enthusiasm and capture it and hopefully keep you in Michigan.
- [05:37]
Dylan Geschel
Something you said that I'm thinking about is the energy that Mary and her team bring to the work. Mary, I wonder, you can share maybe a memorable moment when you feel like your passion for the job led to you making a difference in a patron's life.
- [05:53]
Mary Gallup
Yeah. So things really started to kick off with programming with our team department. We had a family move to the area who recently lost their father and they wanted to start coming to the library all the time. They said they loved their old library, so they wanted to love this one too. And things got kicked off. And every Wednesday since then, it's been. Let's see, that was summer of 21, so it's been four years. We have between 20 and 50 teens every single Wednesday coming to the library with our crafts, pancakes, whatever it is that we have for them that week. So definitely the impact on the teens lives in the area, that's special too.
- [06:36]
Dylan Geschel
Because that's a population that maybe can be hard to reach and to know what they need or want. So kudos to your team.
- [06:42]
Mary Gallup
It's definitely also what we get the most pushback on the rest of the community for. They do not like having teens in their library.
- [06:51]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Where else in your community is there for teens to go?
- [06:53]
Mary Gallup
There is literally not. We don't even have fast food. We've got nothing.
- [06:58]
Kate Pogila Andrade
You had one of the clean. I called it the clean McDonald's that I knew I could stop in when I was pregnant. Driving around the co op.
- [07:06]
Mary Gallup
Yeah.
- [07:06]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Clean restroom. But that's gone. It's gone now. I know. Oh, my gosh. My big tease. What am I gonna do when I've been cleaning the library's clothes? Why are you getting the pushback? Is it that whole the library should be the hallowed halls of shush?
- [07:19]
Mary Gallup
I had one day, teens were on the computers, they were being quiet. They're on the computers doing video games. And someone came up to the desk and complained that they were playing video games and they should just do that at home and that they should be outside running around climbing trees. And literally that same day, later that day, someone came in and complained that there were kids outside running around.
- [07:43]
Dylan Geschel
So, Mary, did Kate say you're in library school right now?
- [07:46]
Mary Gallup
I am.
- [07:47]
Dylan Geschel
Okay. So I also went to library school while I was a first time library director. That's not easy sometimes.
- [07:54]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Forgot about that, Dylan. That's right. I knew that.
- [07:58]
Dylan Geschel
So thinking back to before you were in school and soaking in all that kind of information about the profession, what's something you wish you knew before you started that journey?
- [08:08]
Mary Gallup
I think how much help there is out there between library directors, between librarians, between co op directors. Library of Michigan, they're amazing. There's just so much help out there if you don't know what you're doing. If you have a question, there is like literally always someone that can help you out.
- [08:26]
Dylan Geschel
That's so true. Our organization of partner library groups in Michigan is really strong. Miri, what's one of the more unexpected things that have happened to you in the library? Do you have any good library stories that were surprising?
- [08:41]
Mary Gallup
Definitely me becoming director. I started off working eight hours a week shelving the books, and it was exactly four years later I became the director. And that was something I absolutely never saw coming, never dreamed of when I was a stay at home mom. Never dreamed that I'd one day be running the library.
- [09:01]
Dylan Geschel
When you think about that work as director, what are some of the things you most enjoy about it that you didn't expect going into it? Because I know for a lot of people this was my story. Right. I didn't know what being a library director entailed until I got the job. Or a lot of surprises.
- [09:17]
Mary Gallup
Definitely the community. I love being an important person in the community. I love being recognized everywhere I go. I know that sounds conceited, but I love being invited to speak at Rotary, Lions Club, things like that. I love being the community.
- [09:36]
Dylan Geschel
That's important that you like that work because it is so vital to the longevity of the library.
- [09:41]
Kate Pogila Andrade
One of the cool things I learned about Mary in our conversations too, is her undergraduate work is in sign language.
- [09:48]
Dylan Geschel
Oh, cool.
- [09:49]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Which, yeah, I never, ever knew you could get a degree in sign language. So, like, how awesome is that? Are you. Do you. I don't know why I just thought of that, but are you. Do you. Are you able to use it in the community at all?
- [10:02]
Mary Gallup
No. You do not have any deaf members in the community? Nope.
- [10:08]
Kate Pogila Andrade
I'll shoot. I was hoping at some point that would come in handy other than jumping through the hoops and getting a degree, but what a skill set to have.
- [10:16]
Mary Gallup
Yeah, I know.
- [10:18]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Because of our relationship, you've had some challenges, and I've got some ideas that have bubbled up. I will say you were part of my inspiration for some potential township training opportunities for township officials. And without getting into too much of the weeds here, Dylan, Mary's township, their township library. The township decided very last minute, oh, we don't want to do your bills anymore here. You can do them legally. They can't do that, but they didn't know that. And we know there's a lot of education that township officials don't get about how their library fits into the greater political ecosystem. And I imagine that was probably a surprise. Mary, you. I'm like, I'm trying to think of how to word that as a question, because it was a challenge, but I know Kristen stepped in with a day's notice that we filled a room for a board meeting, a special meeting. We literally filled that meeting room, and by the end of that meeting, the library was open. They had some agreements to keep working. Like, Mary and her board put their foot down. I was so impressed with you guys. Just because you guys said, hey, we're not. This isn't the way it works. And we're glad they work with you, but you have to work with us, and we know that it was.
- [11:29]
Mary Gallup
So the township misunderstood the amount of time that it would take for me to handle the books, and we requested three months time to find a company to find QuickBooks type of thing. And our payday rolled up, and they dropped off all of our documents that they are supposed to be keeping. They dropped off all of their documents off at the library, including our checks that are in their name. And they refused to do that month's payroll. After day four of them not paying us, I told my staff I didn't want them to continue working without being paid. So we closed the library down. This was a Friday. And then the next morning, we had about 40 people come to our board meeting, including Kate and Kristen. And like she said, we put our foot down. We said that we have to be paid. We're not opening up again until they pay us. So. So that got handled. They paid us. They handled our books for one more month, which just barely was enough time for us to get things settled on our end.
- [12:38]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Your struggles there, and I've seen it in other communities where the relationship with your township changes. We have required training as librarians in Michigan, and we have to do beginning workshop, we have to do new directors workshop, and then if you're a certain size library, obviously advanced directors, and then whatever else you want to continue to learn. It's my understanding, and I would love to be wrong, that township officials, the only training they get is if they're running elections. Otherwise it's all optional. And so I'm looking, as someone who's in the kind of the sunset of my career, I am looking for ways to broaden that impact a little bit and seeing where some of the gaps are. And I would love to. I'm seriously considering joining mta, if they'll let me join as an associate member to get my foot in the door and just say, hey, I'm not here to be a jerk, but there's some of your township folks that really, I think it would be beneficial if you understood where the library fits in. I'm not saying you. You have to like us, but until the law changes, you're stuck with us. Sure. And like, we've got Stone Woodlands, so many township libraries, and I'm seeing this all over the place. Or it's the helping the township find a partner to form that district, because it still feels like that's the best way to have the most control of your library. But you've got to have the players, the people that want to do that heavy lifting. And, Mary, that's the other piece of this that really impressed me, is, you know, I didn't know you before you became director, Mary. I didn't even realize you were on staff at the library until I got the notice that, hey, we hired a new director. But how well and professionally you have handled all of this. And I know me personally, I would be freaking out behind the scenes and then trying to be professional in person, stumbling through it. And so kudos to you and your board for really keeping things moving in understanding.
- [14:22]
Mary Gallup
My board did an amazing job. They stayed out of the drama. They held their ground during the meeting. They didn't escalate things during the meeting, things like that. And my staff as well did an amazing job keeping their mouths shut. During the whole fiasco.
- [14:37]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Yeah, I know. I was nudging on the timing. Remember the one meeting where we. So I think that's also one of the things that we. You've upped your game. Oh, yes. Three minutes. Public speaking. Really enforced that time. And you had the one board member. And I want to say it was your president who. I am not the best person to speak right now. So she, like me, zipped it and let someone who was a better speaker represent you. And that meeting, I just, I was like. By the end of that meeting I was like, yeah, Steam, this is so awesome. It's like you always wish every meeting could end that way because it really your community was there. Community members just saying like wtf? They didn't understand any of it because you guys had been under the radar all this time and doing your thing.
- [15:15]
Mary Gallup
Yeah, my board was absolutely amazing. They were so supportive during the entire transition. I definitely got a lot closer to them on a personal level as well because every time I freak out, I give them a call and have a little mini therapy session with my board president. Thanks, Nancy.
- [15:31]
Kate Pogila Andrade
That says a lot too because not everybody has that kind of relationship with their board. Yeah. As the one person gets elected changes, it can change the whole atmosphere of your board.
- [15:40]
Mary Gallup
Let's take a quick break to hear more from our episode sponsor.
- [15:44]
Unknown
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- [15:55]
Mary Gallup
Right.
- [15:55]
Unknown
And what is the waste and how does that affect utilization rate? How can we help libraries forecast better use the data better to create a more accurate, economical experience and serve patrons even better. Subscribe now to the Straight Download. No fiction, just facts.
- [16:14]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Not being from Clinton, has that been a positive thing in a small town? How did you end up in Clinton?
- [16:20]
Mary Gallup
We ended up here because my husband got a job in Ann Arbor and this was as close to Ann Arbor as we could afford a house in. So we ended up in Clinton and. And it definitely has its challenges being an outsider in this community that's been here for 200 years. However, there's definitely some positives I think that I'm. It's easier for me to connect to the other new people in town and by new less than 50 years.
- [16:51]
Dylan Geschel
So I have a follow up question to that. As a new person coming in and having to make so many connections in your new role, what connections have you made that you're really proud of in terms of what it's meant for the Library, whether it's programming or other partnerships.
- [17:06]
Mary Gallup
I would say probably a mix between lions, Rotary, and the people itself. In the summer of 22, for story time, I did a special. During summer reading, we had story time with animals on every Tuesday. And I arranged with community members to bring their pet animals on different Tuesdays. And so we ended up with goats, donkeys, chickens, all sorts of amazing animals. And that was amazing. We had a story time with 115 people in the room. I'm trying my best to sing out loud without letting my voice crack. And then we headed outside and played with the animals, and everybody loved it. And I couldn't have done it without the community because all of it was free. All of it was donated time, all of it was volunteers.
- [17:57]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Where did you put everybody?
- [17:59]
Mary Gallup
It was very squishy. And luckily, masks were still mandated. So we did this all with our masks on, thankfully.
- [18:06]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Okay. I was gonna say, I know your meeting room. When you move the equipment, you've got room, but that's still a lot of people.
- [18:11]
Mary Gallup
It was a lot of people. I needed to have about five people using a clicker to make sure we got the right number.
- [18:18]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Yeah. Wow. That's amazing, Mary. In the community, that size.
- [18:23]
Dylan Geschel
When I hear you talk about programs like that, Mary, it's obvious to me you're very motivated and interested in working in libraries. How do you share that love of libraries with your family and your community?
- [18:35]
Mary Gallup
I think showing up every day, and I could just sit in my office all day with my door closed and not interact with the public and still be doing my job. But for me, doing a great job means getting out there, talking to the patrons, recommending books to them, listening to their stories about their dog or about their book or whatever it is that they want to talk about that day. I just love being part of the community.
- [19:04]
Kate Pogila Andrade
That's what I miss sometimes. That's. I love my work, but sometimes I get doses of that when I visit our libraries, and I get to feel. Absorb some of that, but to help create that magic, that's.
- [19:15]
Mary Gallup
I have the same nostalgia feeling when it comes to the programming, because I very rarely do the programs now. And there will still be times that I'm at the desk and story time is happening and I start crying because I miss it so much.
- [19:29]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Yeah.
- [19:30]
Dylan Geschel
It's so powerful because we get to see all the libraries work in service to people. Right there. When you're at the Cirque desk running the program, it is special. Yeah.
- [19:40]
Mary Gallup
And, hey, I absolutely love my current job. Love it. Love my Current job, but I miss my old job as youth programming. I miss it a lot.
- [19:50]
Dylan Geschel
It sounds like you found a good in between, though, which is that you're not the director that sits behind the desk all day. You're out there working with the community.
- [19:59]
Kate Pogila Andrade
And I think that's a growth thing for the community. And that's, I think, been a change in the profession in general.
- [20:05]
Mary Gallup
I think so, too. And I think that's what caused the transition here as well. Yeah.
- [20:10]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Yeah. As it's much more engaging. And I'm discovering, as I say, as one of the older people now in the profession, which still blows my mind. It's really different. The lay of library land is so different. I'm so glad you're part of it. It makes me feel good that the future is strong and growing.
- [20:25]
Dylan Geschel
So, Mary, you know this really well because you're a library director. The scope of services that public libraries take on is huge, which means the work is too. And it's really varied, and maybe not as varied as some people might think. So I wonder if you could speak to what's one thing about being a librarian that you wish more people understood?
- [20:48]
Mary Gallup
I would say just how awesome it is, probably. But, yeah, you're right. There are a lot of things about the job that most people don't realize. I can't tell you how many people apply for the job and have no idea what it is, looks like, what it entails, anything like that. I'm sure you have experience with that as well. But it's a lot more of a community profession than people realize. It's not just buying the right books, writing the right policies. It's the community, and it is tailored to the community that you're in.
- [21:27]
Dylan Geschel
So true. Libraries are so much more than books. I think everything you're telling us about what you love about your work is testament to that.
- [21:34]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Yeah.
- [21:34]
Dylan Geschel
So what motivates you to go to work every day? What gives you hope about working in libraries?
- [21:39]
Mary Gallup
The people. It's hard to explain how much I love my job, but I do. There's been times that I recently got out of a really bad depression phase, and it was the job that kept me out, and it kept me coming in every day. I just love the people so much. Even if I'm so depressed and I'm holding back tears, it just. I love being out there. I love talking to them. I love being part of the community.
- [22:07]
Dylan Geschel
That's a good place to be. When your job is the thing that you can rely on.
- [22:12]
Kate Pogila Andrade
When things get tough, you Find that people still react like librarian.
- [22:19]
Dylan Geschel
Really?
- [22:20]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Like when you tell them you're a library school and that you work in a library. Do you get any kind of. Oh, people go to school for that. I know. I used to get that.
- [22:27]
Mary Gallup
Oh, yeah. They're like, what do you do at library school? That makes no sense. You learn how to read a book. I can do that.
- [22:35]
Kate Pogila Andrade
It's so true.
- [22:37]
Mary Gallup
It's also really funny when I tell patrons that I'm back in school and they ask me what for. Isn't it obvious? Don't you.
- [22:47]
Dylan Geschel
Mary, when you think about the different roles that you've had in your library career leading up to now being a library director, what would you say is one of the most impactful lessons that you've learned throughout your career?
- [22:59]
Mary Gallup
I would say the value of all individuals, regardless of all aspects, regardless of their age. Unfortunately, we don't have very much diversity here in Clinton, but we still try to emphasize diversity and things like that. And unfortunately, we do get pushback on those things as well. But they all deserve the library. They all deserve access to information. They all deserve our services, our programming, the video games. There's no difference between a 79 year old coming in the building and a 13 year old, in my opinion. They all deserve to be there.
- [23:40]
Dylan Geschel
Yeah. That's such a core tenet of the work we do in libraries. Right. We serve all. And no community is as homogeneous as some people might think it is, with all kinds of different interests. What would you say are the biggest challenges that are facing librarians and libraries?
- [23:56]
Mary Gallup
One of them would definitely be the desire for libraries to be a quiet place, because they're just not that anymore. And here in Clinton, we get a lot of angry people about the fact that it's not a quiet place. It doesn't help that we are a small building and it's an open floor plan. So if you have a kid on one side of the library talking, you can hear him all the way on the other side. And these people don't realize that it's like this everywhere. It's just that we have an open floor plan. In addition to that, I would say definitely the politics, the political climate. Unfortunately, things seem to be going the opposite direction with some topics, and we're noticing a pattern in that at our library as well.
- [24:43]
Dylan Geschel
That's difficult.
- [24:44]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Yeah, it's hard to navigate that. What's the most surprising thing about library school?
- [24:49]
Mary Gallup
I feel like the most that I can learn to do better at my job. I learn from experience. It's Michigan laws and things like that that I have struggled the most with. And these aren't things that you learn in library school. If anything, being in school has confirmed to me that I am doing things the right way, I am pushing the.
- [25:15]
Kate Pogila Andrade
Right direction, especially on the intellectual freedom front. I think that's important because I know we used to say they don't teach this in library school. Like we get a little bit on it, but I'm hoping that they're maybe doing a little bit of a deeper dive on that in library school curricula and getting that out to the newer librarians just how vitally important that is. And it sounds like that's happening, so hooray. If nothing else, library schools come a little bit wet on that. It's been 30 years since I graduated and it's been, from what I understand, the curriculum's been pretty much the same, so it's really nice to hear.
- [25:51]
Dylan Geschel
Thank you again, Mary, for joining us. It's been great to talk, and thanks to everyone for listening to the August episode of Chapter in Verse Storytime from the Stacks. We also want to give a shout out and a thank you to our sponsor, Midwest Tape and Hoopla, and we hope you join us for a few more episodes of our podcast this year. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Much appreciation for listening, and we will see you in September when Christine Peel, the Assistant Director for Public Services at the Detroit Public Library, will sit down with me and our guest, Susan Taylor, manager of the Thomas Edison Branch Library at the Detroit Public Library.