286 · Jason Shapiro - Overcrowded Trades: What Everyone Else is Not Seeing

Summary

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Chat With Traders – Episode 286

Jason Shapiro – Overcrowded Trades: What Everyone Else Is Not Seeing

Release Date: August 28, 2024
Host(s): Ian Cox & Tessa Dao
Guest: Jason Shapiro

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Episode Overview

In this episode, celebrated contrarian trader Jason Shapiro, featured in Jack Schwager’s Unknown Market Wizards, returns to Chat With Traders for a deep dive into his unique countertrend philosophy. Shapiro walks through how he identifies and trades overcrowded markets using positioning and sentiment data—rather than price action alone. The conversation spans recent examples (notably FX trades), the role of market psychology, the nuances of news failures, and why sticking to process trumps following consensus or popular macro narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trading “Against the Crowd” – The Contrarian Edge

• Position, Not Price: Shapiro emphasizes that his countertrend strategy is driven by positioning and sentiment, not price alone. Overextended positions on either side (long or short) signal opportunities for reversals, especially when confirmed by “news failure” events.
  • Quote: “I’m a counter trend trader. I don’t counter trend things because of price, I counter trend things because of positioning.”—Jason Shapiro [04:59]

2. Recent Trade Examples: How Crowdedness Drives Markets

• Currency Trades:
  • Notably traded the dollar short, the Swiss franc, and Japanese yen long—driven by extreme positioning (e.g., record short yen and CHF in COT reports).
  • Missed equity market moves but still posted strong results by catching major FX reversals at crowded extremes.
  • Quote: “We started to get some crowdedness... so we were catching sort of dollar short trade really as early as, like early May... then the yen, just before it squeezed higher, got super record level crowded short right on the lows there.”—[05:33]
• Stock Market Inactivity: Chose to “sit out” equities while positioning data was neutral—emphasizing patience and discipline.

3. Mechanics of Overcrowded Trades and Market Squeezes

• What Happens When It's Overcrowded?
  • When the majority of players are on one side, even a small reversal triggers forced unwinds, exacerbating price moves (e.g., short squeezes).
  • LTCM example: A "correct" trade, but excessive leverage and crowding led to a blowout when the trade went against them.
  • Quote: “When positioning gets massively one-sided... when it starts to move the other way, there’s nobody left to sell it and they all just get squeezed out.”—[11:03]
• Who’s in COT Reports:
  • Speculators vs. commercials—extreme deviation between these groups is a key signal.

4. "News Failure" as Confirmation

• The News Failure Effect:
  • Confirmation comes when a heavily positioned market fails to react in the expected direction to price-relevant news.
  • For example, in the Swiss franc: Negative data should push CHF down—if it instead rallies, it signals all sellers are “in” and the market is poised for reversal.
    • Quote: “I do it on what I call a news failure event... Negative news comes out, market closes up. Why? Because everybody's already short. That’s my confirmation.”—[20:31]
• Risk Management:
  • Entry on news failure; stop at the low (for longs), exit at neutral positioning. Risk:reward structures for big wins with small, frequent losses.

5. Process, Psychology, and Edge

• Patience and Process:
  • Most of the time, the best trade is no trade: “Sit back and wait for your process to give you an edge and then pounce.”
  • Strict, mechanical position sizing: risks 70 basis points per trade.
  • Ignores own bias about which trades are “better”—those he dislikes often work best.
    • Quote: “The trades that I hate the most are the ones that usually end up working the best... So I do not listen to my own bias.”—[35:10]

6. Consensus, Euphoria, and Market Sentiment

• Barron's Experts and Consensus:
  • The so-called “experts” often lag because it’s safer to stick to consensus; public calls rarely stray from the herd.
  • Quote: “Those who know, don’t say. And those who say, don’t know.” —[38:56]
• Market Euphoria:
  • Not just about positioning; can be “smelled” via media and anecdotal sentiment (e.g., “no brainer” calls on TV before major tops—copper in May cited as example).
• The Hated Bull Market:
  • Current US market described as the “most hated bull market”—little retail euphoria, many underinvested, driven by bad memories of past bubbles.
    • Quote: “This market has been going up... but I did not see... any of the signs that I saw in those other bubbles.”—[42:53]

7. Bearish Narratives and Psychology

• “Bear Porn” Attracts Attention:
  • Shapiro ran an experiment posting bullish and bearish videos—the bearish one got five times more views.
    • Quote: “People are very much more interested in hearing the bear case than the bull case.”—[47:13]
  • Investing public is often more emotionally invested in bearish scenarios (regret, wanting a chance to “get in” lower).

8. Macro, Money Printing, and the “End Game”

• QE & Systemic Limits:
  • The real crisis comes if/when money printing no longer “works”—if new liquidity fails to arrest declines in equities, bonds, and the dollar.
    • Quote: “Let them print money and let the market react... if bonds and the dollar go down, then we got a problem. That’s the hitting the fan moment.”—[56:55]

9. Key Takeaways on Intellectual Humility

• Edge in Not Overthinking:
  • More information isn’t always better. A simple, robust process outperforms convoluted macro or narrative-driven approaches.
    • Quote: “Sometimes you can overthink it... all I want to know is what is my process saying? That’s all I need to know.”—[58:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the futility of predicting news:
  “I have no edge in knowing what the news is going to be... I can’t see the future. So I have to trade based on letting the market tell me.”—[31:55]
• On trading discipline:
  “All my trades are exactly the same... If I’m going to get stopped, I’m going to lose 70 basis points. I have no edge in knowing which will work.”—[33:21]
• On market psychology:
  “Those who know, don’t say and those who say, don’t know... not wanting to lose your job, not wanting to lose your clients. The most simple way is to stay in consensus.”—[38:56]
• On when the Ponzi blows up:
  “Somewhere, obviously there is a limit to how much money can be printed before there is a consequence... What happens if that doesn’t work? ... Now we got a problem.”—[53:23], [56:55]

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|-------| | 04:59 | Shapiro’s philosophy: contrarian, positioning over price | | 05:33 | Recent FX trades: catching extremes in CHF, JPY | | 09:21 | Reading COT reports: commercials vs. speculators | | 11:03 | Why small moves in one-sided markets trigger big moves | | 20:31 | News failure: How he gets confirmation for entry | | 35:10 | Ignoring emotional bias; same sizing for all trades | | 38:56 | Barron's experts, consensus, and underperformance | | 42:53 | "Most hated bull market"—lack of euphoria | | 47:13 | Why bearish content gets more attention | | 56:55 | The true “end game” scenario for money printing | | 58:10 | Value of process over information overload |

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in thinking independently and understanding how crowd behavior, sentiment, and positioning drive the markets. Jason Shapiro’s approach underscores that real trading edge often comes from doing less—waiting for the obvious extremes, recognizing the signals in “news failures,” and maintaining strict discipline against one’s own emotional highs and lows.

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Resources:

• crowdedmarketreport.com (YouTube, Substack, other info)
• Jason’s Twitter: @crowdedMKT

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Transcript

[Ian Cox]

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[Tessa]

Ditch those rookie trading apps. Get Tastytrade, the platform for serious traders. Chart with 300 plus indicators. Know your profit odds and move fast. Trade stocks, options, futures and more all in one account. See why serious traders choose tastytrade. Visit tastytrade.com tastytrade Inc. Is a registered broker, dealer and FINRA, NFA and SIPC member. Trading in the financial markets involves a risk of loss. Podcast episodes and other content produced by Chat with Traders are for informational or educational purposes only and do not constitute trading or investment recommendations or advice.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah, you've mentioned in previous videos that it's all fine until there's a recession. What type of news, failure and market reaction would convince you that the game is up?

[Jason Shapiro]

The game is up. Up, up, up.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah, like the game is up where we're done.

[Jason Shapiro]

All over.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah, the, the, the chickens come home to roost and, and people, if we're.

[Jason Shapiro]

Gonna make that argument right.

[Ian Cox]

Huh?

[Jason Shapiro]

I think it starts with the idea of this. This is the bear porn. Okay, you want my bear porn? I'll give you my bear porn. Markets, speculation and risk. This is the chat.

[Tessa]

Hey traders, welcome to episode 286. It's Tessa, your co host alongside Ian Cox, the awesome host who interviews awesome guests on the one and only Chat with Traders. There's contrarian trading and then there's consistent contrarian trading. Can you really make money by consistently going against the crowd? Does it take a certain type of personality to be able to trade this way? Jason Shapiro was featured in Unknown Market Wizards by Jack Schwager. But you know, this market wizard is no longer unknown. I mean, he is the ultimate contrarian trader and we're so excited to have him return to the podcast for an update after two years since we last spoke with him. We get to delve deeper and really pick his brains this time into his countertrend trading philosophy. Learning about how he identifies overcrowded trades and how market positioning and sentiment, rather than price, guide his trades and focusing on the underlying mechanics that drive market moves. You know, there's so much to unpack here, guys, and I think it's fun. And I would challenge you to see if you can come away with any ideas that may spark other ideas that you may have never considered before. We hope you enjoy this episode. Ladies and gentlemen, we're so pleased to welcome back Jason Shapiro.

[Ian Cox]

Hi, Jason, how are you doing?

[Jason Shapiro]

Good, good.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah. It's been a while since we last talked to you. Like to welcome you back to chat with traders.

[Jason Shapiro]

Good to be here. Yeah.

[Ian Cox]

Last time we had you on was, gosh, it was like two years ago in episode 245. Just like to remind our listeners, Jason was featured in the book Unknown Market Wizards. So get a chance to get another. Another wizard to learn about. So since the last time we had you on a few years ago, has anything in the market surprised you during this time?

[Jason Shapiro]

I feel like I've been doing this too long to be surprised by what goes on. Which is not to say that sometimes it's not shocking, but at the same time been doing this a long time and the markets do what they do and sometimes we can get a decent idea of why it's happening and sometimes we have no idea why it's happening. So surprised in that I can't really be surprised anymore because I've seen so many things that have surprised me that it's almost like, you know, nothing surprised me anymore. Huh? Yeah.

[Ian Cox]

So could you do a brief review of what factors do you look at to get you to go long or short?

[Jason Shapiro]

So my fundamental belief is that the market is a discounting mechanism and that the discounting mechanism is in fact positioning and sentiment rather than price. So I'm a counter trend trader. I don't counter trend things because of price. I counter trend things because of positioning. So when I see people are way too long, something you know, I'm looking to get short. When I see that participants are way too short, something I'm looking to get long.

[Ian Cox]

Are there any particular trades that really stood out for you in the last few years?

[Jason Shapiro]

They're all pretty similar to me. You know, like I say, everybody gets super short and then I'm looking to get long. So, you know, a couple good ones that we were able to catch based on that this year was sort of this currency trade. I I went through a period earlier in the year where I really didn't have very much going on at all. And then a few months into it, we started to, we started to get some crowdedness. So we were catching sort of dollar short trade really as early as, like early May. We're looking at the, at the Swiss franc and then, and then the yen, just before it squeezed higher, got super record level crowded short right on the lows there. So that was a great one to catch. And in particular, because, you know, that yen trade and that whole carry trade moved everything else with it, obviously, and we did not have anything that got us short the stock market during that period. I didn't see the stock market as being super crowded long, but it didn't matter because we were able to catch, you know, the, the currency trades. So I always say it doesn't matter where you catch these things, you know, as long as you catch it. I remember in 2008, I had an up year. I was neither short stocks nor long bonds, which were kind of the headline trades, but it didn't matter. You know, I had a positive year. My numbers were good, and people don't ask, you know, whoa, how come you had a good year? Did you get short stock? You know, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is I made money and that's all that really matters. And that's kind of how it's been this year too. I really haven't traded the stock market very much this year at all.

[Ian Cox]

Why is that? Why is that, again, that unusual?

[Jason Shapiro]

Just wasn't, it just wasn't set up for me. You know, at the lows in the stock market, I saw people, and this is going back, you know, a year and a half or so. We're, we're very, very short. And I, I caught some longs there, but when that data goes back to neutral, that's where my edge is over. So I get out. So it went neutral, you know, probably last early summer it went neutral, which doesn't mean it's then going to go down. It means it's going to go up or down, but, you know, it just does. My edge isn't there, so I don't trade it. So I haven't really had stock trades, but I've had a few other trades that have worked very, very well. And of course, I've had trades that have lost, too. But the currency trade certainly was my best and, and favorite trade this year because it really caught the meat of what was driving everything. So like I say, though, I Didn't catch the stock market short trade back in mid July I was able to catch the currency trade which really drove that. Anyway, so what's the difference where you catch it? Right?

[Ian Cox]

Are we talking about the ends making near all time high or all time lows actually in sometime in July? Is that.

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah. Right. Then is when when we saw the, the position and get record crowded was right in the beginning of July and before that we saw it in, in the Swiss franc which really was showing that same thing back in late May. And that one took a while to to work about a month, but eventually worked and worked very well.

[Ian Cox]

In July when you were seeing, seeing the Japanese yen being very crowded, what, what does that really mean? So you were seeing a disproportionate number of participants being short.

[Jason Shapiro]

Correct.

[Ian Cox]

Or being short the yen?

[Jason Shapiro]

Correct. Correct. It's exactly what it was.

[Ian Cox]

I see. And then so how it appears to you on the, on the commitment of traders report, it shows what very long, very long bars representing heavy positions from the short side.

[Jason Shapiro]

Correct. Shows the speculators in the community traders report being very very short.

[Ian Cox]

And so you're saying speculators and what.

[Jason Shapiro]

Was the other group on the other side of the commercials? So, so they were very long, speculators were very short. And that tends to be when markets have a high probability of turning and should they turn a high probability of having a big move? Because you have all these speculators that are short and as the market starts to go against them, they start getting stopped out, we start going through moving averages, we start doing all these things that these technical traders use and they start getting stopped out. So I'm really just trying to front run that type of move.

[Ian Cox]

So what was the trigger for the Japanese yen to actually go up? I mean we hear quite a bit about the yen carry trade. What is that and how does that impact the world markets?

[Jason Shapiro]

I mean the end carry trade, the theory is that interest rates in Yen are very low relative to say the US dollar. So people will borrow money cheaply in Yen and put that to work in risk assets like stocks. So when that starts to go against them on the Yen side, they have to get out of all those trades. So they get out of the yen position and they, they get out of their, their long risk assets like stocks position and then it all just kind of craters down. You know, that's the theory behind it all.

[Ian Cox]

I'm just wondering how is it that just a 1/4 of 1% rise in Japanese interest rates could trigger such a massive sell Off. I mean, that's not that much of a, an increase. Why did such a big sell off occur on such a small interest rate increase?

[Jason Shapiro]

Well, I mean, this is the thing about when positioning gets massively one sided, right? If everybody that is going to sell yen has already sold yen, then when it starts to move the other way, there's nobody left to sell it and they all just get squeezed out. And that's what happens. You know, people will argue that it was about, okay, they, they raised a quarter percent and maybe they indicated that there's more to come and you know, that there's some truth to that. But I will always argue that it was all about just way overextended positioning that caused such a outsized move.

[Ian Cox]

So in the cot reports, could you have heavy participation on the short side, but yet the number of play, but that participation is spread out kind of evenly among all the participants and such that each participant wouldn't be exposed to too heavily, they wouldn't be too heavily leveraged, but you have broad participation, making it look like it's a crowded trade. And yet when it goes against them, there wouldn't be this panic to quickly get out of their position because it was, they were relative, each participant was relatively light.

[Jason Shapiro]

It's possible. I mean, arguably, what difference does it make if it's one participant that's massively short or if it's a whole bunch of participants that are, that are short? You know, it's a position that's very, very big out there and doesn't guarantee that the market's going to go the other way. But it means if the market starts to go the other way off of some trigger like the Japanese interest rate move in this case, that you can get a very big move the other way because all this positioning has to, has to get out and there's really nobody, nobody to, you know, to buy it from because they're all in it.

[Ian Cox]

So I, I see. So just a, just a small number of participants trying to get out triggers what margin calls. Because no one wants to take the other side of the position. There's no one left. And so a small amount of dollar buying back in would send these markets or would send the Japanese yen up sharply higher quickly.

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah, I mean, if you look at the LTCM situation In the late 90s, there was a small amount of participants that were putting on this trade that blew them out, but they were putting it on in massive size. And when it started to go badly, they all had to get out because they were getting margin calls and there was nobody to take the other side. So they all blew out. I mean, literally blew out. Right. And as it turned out, the trade wasn't even wrong. The trade ended up being correct. But in the middle of that trade being correct, it got too crowded, they got squeezed. There was no one to provide them with liquidity on the other side, and they all blew out. I mean, LTCM went out of business, Solomon Brothers went out of business, you know, and all on a trade, by the way, that ended up being totally correct.

[Ian Cox]

Any. Do you have any idea what any of these players might use as an excuse of, of, you know, when it comes to a market being overcrowded, kind of, what's their rationale? Do they believe that, oh, it's, it won't happen or it can't happen for.

[Jason Shapiro]

These reason, most people necessarily look at that. They're looking at the fact that they think that the trade makes a lot of sense. And if it makes sense for a dollar, then it makes sense for $100. So let's, let's go for it, you know. And that lesson seems to never be learned. I mean, the LTCM people were the theoretically the smartest people on the street. Right. And, and they didn't get it right. You know, people have a tendency to think in terms of greed, you know. Uhhuh. And that in the end is what gets them, I think. Uhhuh.

[Ian Cox]

So you have the old phrase, this time it's different, right?

[Jason Shapiro]

I guess so, yeah.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah. How long has the Japanese yen carry trade been going on? And in general, what's its level of influence over risk assets?

[Jason Shapiro]

I can't really say what its level of influence is. I just know what people talk about and what the theory is. I don't know enough about how hedge funds finance their trades through the yen. I really don't know. It's something that has been going on for a very long time. We hear in euro yen as well. Euro yen has always been sort of a risk on measure as well, with the same idea. If euro yen was going up, then that was positive risk assets and vice versa. So that's been going on for as long as I can remember.

[Ian Cox]

So just before the yen carry trade blew up, were there any signs in the US stock market that it was crowded on the long side?

[Jason Shapiro]

No, not to me.

[Ian Cox]

There weren't any markets that you're looking at now that are showing you that they are very crowded, both from the long and the short side.

[Jason Shapiro]

You know, right now it's gone after this whole sort of dollar Thing the last few months, which was really where I saw most of the crowdedness and now that has gone away. I don't see a lot of stuff right now. You know, arguably there is some overly short positioning starting to happen in the energy sector, particularly in heating oil and an unleaded gas is starting to get there. And there's a couple commodities like cotton, things like that that are getting close to getting there. But as far as stocks, bonds, bonds are starting, just starting to get a little bit crowded. Especially the long end of the yield curve in 30 years are arguably getting to a point where people are a little bit too crowded long, which would make sense I guess because people are expecting interest rate cuts. It doesn't make sense to me why they would buy, be buying 30 years because they were expecting interest rate cuts. But nevertheless that seems to be what they are doing. So I think that there's probably arguably some, some crowdedness in, in the long end of the yield curve there at the 30 years. But as far as currencies and stocks and, and most of the commodities, I don't really see anything. Gold is getting close. Gold we saw as pretty darn crowded to the long side earlier in the year and that went away and now the market has again ripped higher to new highs and now we're getting close to where they're getting a little bit extreme crowded on that one too. But again not totally there yet. That's going to trigger a trade for me just yet.

[Ian Cox]

I often hear about central banks supposedly buying gold. Would central bank show up in a COT report? Could we track what they do?

[Jason Shapiro]

Only if they're doing it in the futures market will they show up. If they're buying cash gold then they will not show up in the CoT report, although it could show up. Arguably the people they're buying it from might be using the futures to hedge or something. We don't know. That whole argument to me is you can be bullish gold and I can make a hugely bullish gold case here on a fundamental basis and that's fine. But if your argument is the central bank buying, personally I think that's silly because I can remember in the late 90s when central banks were auctioning off their gold holdings. Right. And that was the low in gold. Right. So the opposite argument then would have been well geez, central banks are selling so you wouldn't want to be long gold. Right. I remember every like month they were holding these auctions to auction off all their, hold their gold holdings. The bank of England and all these, these Places and that was right at the low. Gold has gone up a massive amount since then. Right. If I recall that was like in 98. So if you were going to be bearish gold because of central bank selling in 98, I think it was actually 99. So I mean you were looking at $250 gold. It's gone up 10 times since then. So if you were buying from the central banks back then then you should probably selling, be selling to the central banks now. Right. That's how I would see it personally. But you know, everyone has their own, their own read on how they want to read things.

[Ian Cox]

So when a market goes from a crowded position, bullish or bearish to say a very light position, is that a signal that players have just gone to cash?

[Jason Shapiro]

Well, it's a signal that they've gotten out of those, you know, those massive positions is really all up to signal for where they've gone to cash or whether they've gone somewhere else or wherever they've gone. You know. But for me when that happens there's just no trade there. Right. For me because if I'm trading it based on positioning and there's no massive positioning then then there's no edge for, for my particular process. So I just sit back and, and wait for the next kind of low hanging fruit type of situation, you know, which is a hard thing to do for me and for many people, you know, just sit back and wait know. But that I have learned over time is, is the best thing to do. You know, sit back, wait for your process to, to give you an edge and then, and then pounce. Right. But just to trade around things just because you're bored or whatever, that's over time I think a big mistake and a costly mistake.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah. So let's go into what you consider an ideal setup to go long or short. You talked about of markets being overcrowded one way or the other. And my understanding is you're looking for a news failure day.

[Jason Shapiro]

Right. So I think no matter how you trade, whatever it is you think, I think that stocks are going to go up or whatever because of this, that's fine. But you always want to wait for the market to confirm what you're believing. Right. Because you don't want to be fighting the tape because you're not going to be over time smarter than the market. Right. Fighting the tape is just a very dangerous thing. I'm right. The market's wrong. So I'm going to do this is a very dangerous thought process of time. Right. So what Is a market confirmation. Well, for me, if I'm looking at, okay, everybody's short here, I'm looking to get long, what's going to be my confirmation? I do it on what I call a news failure event, which means this market's been going down. Everybody is super short. I'm looking into why that is. What's the fundamental reason that everybody's looking for that? And we can just get into the Swiss franc trade. Earlier in the year, and it was all about interest rates differentials. The European central banks, including Switzerland, were cutting rates much faster than the US The US to this point still hasn't even cut rates at all. The interest rate differential was growing, Tom, and therefore that's bullish, the dollar versus those currencies. So I'm looking for data that is going to support that interest rate differential. So in this case, let's say some weaker data in Switzerland, right? Since I'm looking at the Swiss franc, that should support that. And it comes out and Swiss probably goes down after it, but then it pops back up and closes the day higher for no reason. That's what I call news failure. The news was bearish and the market didn't go down. Why didn't the market go down? Is it that everybody didn't see the news? Clearly not everybody sees the news. Everybody's paying attention. To my eye and to my belief system, it's because everybody's already short. So who's left to go short? You know, where's the marginal seller? And the market just showed you that. The market just confirmed that, you know, if there was a marginal seller, they would have been selling on this negative news. Well, they didn't. You know, the market closed up on the negative news. So that's my market confirmation, and that is where I will get long. And now I have two things that go on. One, despite the fact that it had this news failure today, it might in the next day or the next week or the next couple weeks go down anyway on new bad news and take out those lows. Well, if it takes out the lows of that day, well, then I'm stopped out. I'm picking a turn. If it makes a new low, then clearly I have not picked a turn. So I'm wrong. So I stop out. Okay, there you go. I take my loss, I move on. The good point side is when it works. So now the market starts to go up short, start to get squeezed. It starts going up, they're getting squeezed, getting squeezed. The positioning data goes back to a neutral reading. And that's where I take my profit. So it's one or the other. And what tends to happen is, you know, say my trades are profitable less than 50% of the time, but the profitable trades make multiple times what to lose and trades lose. You know, in the particular case with the Swiss franc, I think we ended up making seven times what I was risking. So that means that makes up for seven losing trades, right? If I have that one winning trade and I have seven losing trades, I'm even right. And that's really as a trader, I think what you're, what you're looking for is these asymmetrical payout situations, right? You want to make a lot more on your winners and you, and you lose on your losers. And that's to me is what, what trading is over time. So how to identify where those kind of situations are? One way to do it, I believe, is through positioning.

[Ian Cox]

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[Ian Cox]

How often are important news releases digested over days and weeks, thus necess necessitating scaling into the position.

[Jason Shapiro]

No, I don't do that. To me it's, it's a one day read, right? If we look at the classic example that I like to talk about a lot, since most people are involved in the stock market, if we look at the low of the stock market In October of 2022, okay, the market was getting bashed all through 2022 as inflation was rising and the Fed therefore had to keep raising rates. And this was all seen as very negative for the stock market and it kept going down. October 2022 came. We had a CPI report which was the big number then because everyone was so focused on this inflation thing. And we had a CPI report come out in October that was higher than expectations and was actually the highest CPI number for the entire cycle, as it turns out. For the entire cycle. But we didn't know that then. But what we knew then was it was the highest number for the cycle up until that point and higher than expectations that day. So again, given that the stock market was selling off on, on higher inflation, this should have been a very bearish number for the stock market. And that day in fact was in the morning a big down day for stocks, as you would expect. And by the end of the day the stock market actually closed up and that was it. That was the low, that was the exact low that of the stock market since then.

[Ian Cox]

Well, how crowded did it appear on the COT charts?

[Jason Shapiro]

Truthfully, it wasn't, it was crowded, but it wasn't mega crowded at that point. But it got there in about January of 23. So a couple of months later, the stock market rebounded a little bit. It started to have another sell off and then it got super crowded and then we had some news failure in there somewhere. And that's kind of where I got long stocks was back in January 23rd and that trade lasted for about six months.

[Ian Cox]

So do the impacts of the same types of news releases vary over time depending on the mood of the market? I asked this because the markets rallied on the dovish July 31 fed announcement, but then proceeded to go down sharply afterwards.

[Jason Shapiro]

Yes, I think that they, they change depending on what is the sort of psychology that's driving, that's driving the markets at the time. You know, sometimes we're in this mode where good news is bad news and then sometimes we're in the mode where good news is good news, you know, so you have to kind of pay attention in a way to what that is where we are in that cycle so that you can then figure out what actually a news failure is. Right. And those things, like you mentioned, have switches. Right. We were in this mode for most of the last year and a half where some weakness economically was seen as good because it meant lower rates. Right. And that kind of switched, I would say on CPI day in July was the big switch on that. We had a lower CPI and the markets couldn't rally on that anymore. So. And then everyone started focusing on, well, gee, there's going to be recession and there's going to be weakness. And so we got into that mode. Right, right. And where we are now, I really. I don't know because now we're getting both sides of it. You know, sometimes we'll go up on that kind of news, sometimes we'll go down on that kind of news. But that to me can be explained by the fact that the positioning really is not showing any kind of bias one way or the other. So the markets can just act in like a random fashion, which is. Is what I think is going on here.

[Ian Cox]

Just curious about markets where there is much less news flow. For example, I don't know, maybe say some commodities.

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Ian Cox]

Versus the stock market. Are news failure days more pronounced in area in comm. In markets that don't have a lot of news flow because of the relative scarcity of the news flow?

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah. It can be hard to read news flow on some of these markets, like coffee and, you know, cotton and that type of stuff, because they don't have a lot of releases. Right. But they do have releases, you know, like the grains and all that have a W report every month. And there's some other kind of, you know, supply demand reports that, that come out. But certainly it's nothing like the financial markets. And I get more trades, I would say arguably in the financial markets because of that, but I do get trades in these other commodities. And you know, part of the news flow can arguably be a correlation flow as well, you know, so you're looking at gold, and we know that gold tends to go up when dollar goes down. Right. So you get a big down day in the dollar and gold goes up on the back of it and then fails. You can argue that that's a news, you know, that's a piece of news for gold. Is that the dollars a week? Right. So I call it a correlation failure, but it's just sort of a subtype of. Of news failure. You know, you don't get a lot of fundamental news on gold. Right. But it reacts in certain ways to other markets. So therefore, you know, you can use the, the correlation moves as, as a signal.

[Ian Cox]

So do you spend quite a bit of time just observing the various nuances in the news and how each market responds to it while you're say, while you're waiting for the perfect setup to go in so that you can see the trend of how kind of how the psychology is evolving over time?

[Jason Shapiro]

I spend just about all of my time doing that. Wow. Trying to figure out what it is that that is theoretically making these markets move a certain way so that I can know when that thing happens, how should the market respond and, and if it doesn't respond that way, you know that that's giving me my read. Right. I'm not here to belong something because I think that the news is going to be positive. I don't have any edge in knowing what the news is going to be. I unfortunately can't see the future. Right. I don't have inside information into any of this stuff. Right. So I can't trade based on that. Right. So I have to trade based on letting the market tell me what it's going to tell me. You know, read the tape. And to me, reading the tape means how does it respond to the input, not what is the input because I could never have predicted that, but how does the market respond to the input relative to how it should theoretically respond to the input?

[Ian Cox]

How often do you find yourself coming across a potential trade where to you it seems like the ideal setup and then you go in very heavy on that one particular market or do you set limits to yourself, you know, no more than X percentage in stocks, no X percentage in commodities. How do you work that?

[Jason Shapiro]

I don't go in heavy on anything. All of my trades are exactly the same and therefore my risk is exactly the same. I personally risk 70 basis points on each trade. So I know where my entry is, which is on this reversal day type of thing. I know where my stop is, which would be if I was buying this thing would be the low of that day. So I put on as much into that trade so that if I am going to get stopped, I'm going to lose 70 basis points on that trade. And I picked 70 basis points because A through back testing and B through 20 plus years of live trading, I know that that 70 basis points is going to come pretty close to providing my bought my portfolio with a volatility of around 7 to 8%, which is what I am targeting. Which then brings me to, you know, a return of around 15 a year. And that's what I do. You know, some people want to do more, they do more. You know, it's all a question of your risk tolerance. Right, but that's where my risk tolerance is. So that's how I do that. I have no edge, unfortunately, in knowing which one of these trades has a higher probability of working than any other one. I have spent much time with people that have worked for me and quants that have worked for me trying to decipher that, and we have never found anything that has been reliable. What I find is the one, the trades that I hate the most are the ones that usually end up working the best. And the ones that I love the most are usually the ones that end up working worst. So I don't use any bias in that. I just treat all these trades exactly the same.

[Ian Cox]

Anything you attribute to the trades that you dislike the most, sometimes performing the best.

[Jason Shapiro]

I think because I have the same behavioral biases of everybody else. You know what I mean? The markets have a way of, you know, of making us look like fools. You know, it's just kind of the nature of the beast. So, you know, I can sit here and I can justify, okay, this trade should be great because of the macro. I'm seeing the macro look like this and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's all very interesting. It makes for some fun conversation. But the truth is it has absolutely nothing to do with, with how I trade it. I put all my trades on exactly the same. I, I had, just as an example, I had a really nice trade earlier this year where I got short cotton. It was a very nice trade. I didn't think it was going to work at all. I thought that cotton was, I was in my heart, sort of bullish. The stock market, I thought that cotton was more of a risk asset just like anything. So if the stock market were going to keep going up, cotton was probably going to keep going up. So I didn't like the trade at all. But thankfully I didn't listen to myself because that trade ended up making just that one trade ended up making like my full first half of the year. So I do not listen to my own bias because I have learned that it's no better or worse than anybody else's. You know, I wish I had some magical ability, but unfortunately, I'm just a dude like everybody else. You know, I have no edge in, in forecasting the future, unfortunately.

[Ian Cox]

Could you give us an example? Or maybe you remember that event of the news failure of cotton? Like what, what would we, I don't exactly.

[Jason Shapiro]

Oh, you know what it must have been. It was a report, a green report, a WASI report that included cotton.

[Ian Cox]

Huh.

[Jason Shapiro]

That came out very bullish for cotton and cotton ended up going up and then closing on the low of the day. And so I got short there against the high of that day.

[Ian Cox]

So whether you like the trade or whether you dislike the trade, you put on the same position size on the, on the day of the news failure and you don't add to the position. Is that correct?

[Jason Shapiro]

I don't add to the position.

[Ian Cox]

Okay. So, yeah, risk size.

[Jason Shapiro]

And then I just said it's either going to stop me out, I'm going to lose what I was expecting to lose, or at least close. There's some slippage sometimes, but. And if it works, then, then it works. I can't control it either way.

[Ian Cox]

And what percentage of the time do your trades work?

[Jason Shapiro]

Over time, the number's been about, somewhere between the 37 and 40% winner.

[Ian Cox]

So if you get stopped out, do you ever try to reenter that?

[Jason Shapiro]

Oh, yeah. If the, if the crowdedness is still set up as it was, I will re. Enter on a, on a new news failure event.

[Ian Cox]

Oh, on. On another news failure. So to say, if the market's really crowded, you have a news failure event on one day, you go in, you put your position in and then say a few days later you get stopped out, but you still see, say a week or two weeks later, it's still very crowded. Are there conditions that you would re. Enter that same trade?

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah, a new news failure. Just the whole.

[Ian Cox]

A new news failure. Okay.

[Jason Shapiro]

Just resets and starts over.

[Ian Cox]

I see in one of your interviews you've done earlier, you discussed about Barron's experts and their portfolios. Kind of. Why do they underperform? And I'm just curious if they're good enough to get on Barons. They, One would think that they have performed well in the past enough to. Enough for Barons to call them on as experts. Do you consider them part of the consensus and why do you think they underperformed?

[Jason Shapiro]

I do consider them part of the consensus and I think that is why they underperformed. Yeah. You know, to say, oh, well, if Barents is going to call them up, they must have, they must be expert. You know, that's arguable. You know, they must have a good marketing team. They must have, they must have a good PR team. Right. I don't see Stanley Druckenmiller sitting on the, on the Baron's round table. You know, you know, those who Know, don't say and, and those who say don't know kind of thing. Right. But given enough people on the Barons round table, you're going to see consensus, you know, I mean a lot of this has to do with not wanting to lose your job, not wanting to lose your clients. And the most simple way to do that is to not do anything outside of consensus. Right. Because if you lose money when you're in consensus then you can say, well gee, everybody lost money. Whereas if you lose money when you're against consensus, people are going to be like, what the hell are you doing know you're fired. Right. So I think it has a lot to do with that psychology.

[Ian Cox]

Personally got the, some of these people wanting to fit in, right?

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah, protect the job, protect their, you know, protect their business. You know.

[Ian Cox]

In other videos you've mentioned about euphoria and market tops, what are the signs of euphoria that go beyond just the COT report?

[Jason Shapiro]

Well, I mean A, positioning and B, you can smell it. I mean we had what I consider to be euphoria in copper, for example, back in May of this year where yes, the commitments of traders were showing people were way too long. But you started hearing people, you know, people don't talk about copper that much. You know, it's maybe one of the more popular commodities with oil and gold and all that and then maybe copper, but you know, you started getting people on tv. You know, it was the. Copper became the new AI trade, right? Because run out of electricity and everyone was going to have to buy all this copper to make all these new, you know, all this new electricity and you know, had a, I still have it somewhere in my file where a guy came on and said this was the biggest no brainer trade he has seen in his career. And that was literally a day before the top in May when you start hearing people's, there's no such thing as a no brainer trade. I'm sorry, never will be, never has been. Okay? So when people start talking about this is the biggest no brainer trade I've seen. And this is after, of course he didn't say this when copper was trading at 360. He said it was when copper was trading at, you know, 520, right after things gone from 360 to 520 in three months. Now all of a sudden he's on TV saying it's the no brainer trade. And it's not even just necessarily something against this particular person. You have to remember he's getting on TV and saying this. So somebody is making the decision at that time to allow him to be on tv. And they're allowing him to be on tv clearly, because Copper is making headlines and everybody wants to hear about it. And so they bring the guy on that's going to say that, right. That's what's going to get the viewership. So that tends to be when euphoria happens, right. When all you start to hear about is one thing. That tends to be when, when the euphoria is happening.

[Ian Cox]

So you pay close attention to what's going on in the news and society and what have you to add to your list of tools in addition to the co report to get a feel of, of how euphoric a market is.

[Jason Shapiro]

I do.

[Ian Cox]

You said back on June 16, quote, this is the most hated bull market I have ever seen. Tell us, tell us why.

[Jason Shapiro]

I traded through, you know, the, the, the late 90s as we now know it bubble. And I also traded through a few other bubbles in, in Asia and whatnot in my life. And this market has been going up for quite a while now with a little break in 2022. But, but I did not see and still have not seen for that matter, any of the signs that I saw in those other bubbles. You know, when I was trading in late 99, all you heard about everywhere you went was all these people talking about how much money they were making in the stock market. Right. I don't hear a lot of that going on now. I have been hearing more people tell me how this was a bubble and it's going to crash and all that. You didn't HEAR Anybody in 99 talking about how this was a bubble when in fact it was. Right. I don't see that now. I see almost the opposite. I mean, right here again, I wouldn't say people are ridiculously bullish, but I don't think that they're as bearish as they have been for the last year and a half, but more neutral at this point. But that's what I meant by it's the most hated bull market was I, I just don't understand. There was no euphoria, there was no nothing. And I think that's a function of the fact that you had the people who were like my age who did get burned in 2000, 2001, 2002. Right. And have promised themselves they would never fall for that trick again. And then you had the younger generation have the same thing happen to them in 2022, 2021. Post Covid a lot of the Younger generation got involved and was chasing all these momentum stocks. And once those momentum stocks failed, they just sat on them and said, okay, I'll wait till they come back. And they never came back. You know, they lost, you know, all these Cathie woods type of stocks, right? They lost, you know, 75, 85%. And now they have promised themselves that they would never fall for that again. And so therefore they have hated this rally for the most part, almost the whole way up. So that's what I mean by the most hated bull market.

[Ian Cox]

I've also heard you say that people love bear porn. And I'm just curious, why would this be when most of the investing public invests or trades from the long side, wouldn't they love bull porn?

[Jason Shapiro]

You know, it's a deep subject, but I'll tell you this. I made a video, I don't know how long ago, maybe it was a year ago or so. I made two videos on the same day just as an experiment. I use the same data, I use the same information, and on one video I made the bullish argument based on that data and information. And on one video, I made the bearish argument based on that same data information. And I posted them both within an hour of each other on YouTube. And the bearish one got five times more views than the bullish one. And the bullish one I called the bull case and the bearish one I called the bear case, and the bear case got five times more views. So why is that, you know, huh? I feel like, you know, the, the, the short trade is, is the hero trade, right? And people want to be the hero. You know, anybody can say, hey, the stock market's going up and 75% of the time it goes up, right? But it's the hero that gets the market going down, right? So everybody kind of wants to be the hero. So they make these bearish things. And I think that people are. While you say most people are invested from the long side, and that's clearly true, I think they are underinvested relative to where they in particular wish they had been, right? With the market basically at very close to all time highs here, they clearly wish they had more money in the market, right? And they don't. And so, you know, it makes them feel a little bit foolish. And, and therefore, if the market came down, they would maybe feel a little bit better about themselves and maybe they could get some of the money to work that they wish they had put to work. So I just noticed that people are very much more interested in Hearing the, the bear case more than they're hearing the bull case.

[Ian Cox]

Interesting take on psychology there. Like to transition to economics and get back to you were talking about copper. Some say that Copper has a PhD in economics. Any thoughts on that?

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah, I mean, I get it. You know, demands for copper should be high in times of strong economic growth and, and obviously low in, in terms of weak economic growth. So that's why they say that, you know, why did copper go down? I will argue because people just got way too freaking long and therefore they had to get stopped out, which they did. But you know, if we want to make the fundamental argument, you know, we can point to China which has had a, you know, was the biggest user of copper by far and the economy clearly has sort of fallen out of bed then and hasn't really recovered very much. You know, Chinese housing and construction obviously uses a huge amount of the global copper supply and that whole market has just been way overbuilt and has just died. So I think that is the fundamental reason why copper has had such a hard time recently. But that's not to say that it necessarily says anything about the union. The US market people came up with copper's PhD way before China even was a player on the global economic stage. Right now they're probably the biggest player for that type of stuff. Right. Maybe the Ph.D. isn't, has been lowered to a, to a master's degree at this point. I don't know. Yeah.

[Ian Cox]

Have the net longs or shorts reported by the COT grown steadily over the years to reflect all the new money printing?

[Jason Shapiro]

Certainly in the stock market, the, the, the outstanding value and the bond market, the outstanding values have gone up. I wouldn't say so. In the commodity markets they stay pretty much the same.

[Ian Cox]

So what are your thoughts about the market saying that the, about the chances of a 50 point rate cut? How accurate has the market been in the past in predicting these rate cuts? And is there a way to measure how crowded the, this type of betting is?

[Jason Shapiro]

I mean, at the beginning of this year they were betting on seven rate cuts. They were betting on seven rate cuts this calendar year. Oh, wow. So how accurate was that?

[Ian Cox]

Right.

[Jason Shapiro]

Yeah, not very. The positioning in the COT for fixed income can help in deciphering where people are positioned for that type of stuff. My personal take, which as I've said before, I wouldn't trade off of my life depended on it, but I, I personally think it's a little bit crazy. I have no idea why they're, they're cutting rates, why they're even talking about cutting rates. I don't, I personally don't get it. I guess they're trying to get in front of something, but I don't see signs of recession. I guess we're seeing some weakening. But you know what, the unemployment rate is 4.3%. It wasn't very long ago where the theory was the natural rate of unemployment was 6%, meaning it could never go any lower than that. Right. So how four point, how we move from 4.1% to 4.3% is so economically bearish, I don't particularly get. I also think that, and look, by the time we get to the interest rate cut, as we've seen the last few weeks, the market can move very quickly. This could be different. But I mean the S P is within a couple percent of all time highs. Gold is within one day. Yesterday it was on all time highs. Bonds are, are within a couple days of all time highs. So why do you need to cut rates? There's clearly plenty of liquidity out there right now to do what you, what you need to do. You're going to cut rates into the stock market on all time highs and gold on all time highs. I think it's insane, but who the hell am I? I don't sit on the Federal Reserve Board. I don't know what, you know, maybe they see something that I'm not saying. You know, I don't sit here and have a team of people forecasting, you know, future economic growth for me. You know, I'm just a stupid tape reader. So maybe they're seeing something that, that I don't see. But to me, I, I personally think it's, it's insane. But you know, and again, I don't care, let them cut rates. What's important to me is how will the market react to that?

[Ian Cox]

Right, right. So if the Fed gives the market what it's demanding and cuts rates by say 50 points and the market closes significantly down for the day, would that be an obvious news failure and a clear sign to go short?

[Jason Shapiro]

It wouldn't be because it's not set up as a short. It's not set up that they're super long here for me. I personally think that if that were the case, I would be looking to short the 30 year bonds which are very close to set up to a short here. If they cut rates, 50 and 30 year bonds go up first and then close down, I would be looking to short that. I think that would be the trade.

[Ian Cox]

Oh wow. So you've said in the past, by.

[Jason Shapiro]

The way, to me, makes the most fundamental sense as well. Just as an aside.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah. You've mentioned in. In previous videos that it's all fine until there's a recession. What type of news failure and market reaction would convince you that the game is up?

[Jason Shapiro]

The game is up, up, up, up.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah, like the game is up where we're done.

[Jason Shapiro]

It's all over.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah. The. The chickens come home to roost and.

[Jason Shapiro]

And people, if we're gonna make that argument right.

[Ian Cox]

Huh.

[Jason Shapiro]

I think it starts with the idea of this. This is the bear porn. Okay? You want my bear porn? I'll give you my bear porn. You know, you start with the argument that this entire thing is nothing but a Ponzi scheme, okay. Where they've been since 09, they've been doing nothing but printing money.

[Ian Cox]

Right.

[Jason Shapiro]

And that is what has supported everything. Right? Because at the end of the day, more money is what drives the prices of things up. Right. Milton Friedman will tell you that. Right. Or at least he would have when he was alive. Right. That ultimately is what drives things up. So they print money. And somewhere, I don't know where, I don't even know if it's close or if it's not close. I have no idea. But somewhere, obviously there is a limit to that, to how much money can be printed before there is a consequence. Now, we know the US has this special thing that the dollar is the reserve currency of the world. So therefore the limit to how much money they should be able to print is probably a lot higher than anybody else. But there is still a limit because there is a limit to everything in the world. Right. Physics will tell us that. Right. My feeling is if they get to a point where there's some sort of recession and let's say the markets are going down, etc. Etc. And the way that they decide to solve that, again, is to go back into QE and go back into printing money. Okay, that's fine. What happens if that doesn't work? And what. What it will look like that not working is they'll print money, don't announce printing money, whatever. And the markets won't go up anyway. Stocks will go down anyway, bonds will go down anyway, and the dollar will go down. Now what, what are you doing now? Right. There's nothing left at that point. It's over. Right? So that's what I would be looking. We're not there yet. We could be there within the next six months. You know, let's see where we go, right? We get the S P, you know, back down to 3,000 and etc. Etc. And shit starts to hit the fan and someone's in trouble and all that, you know, then, then we'll see. Let, let them print money and let the market react to them printing money and let's see how it goes. Right. But to me, that is the, the, the hitting the fan moment when it, when the Ponzi scheme is over. And again, I'm not here to say that happens in the next six months. It could happen 60 years for all I know. Right. But that's, I believe what to look out for and I do in my heart of hearts believe that that is a real possibility simply because of the psychology behind it. When they did it the first time in 09, I worked at a large hedge fund and I can tell you that the consensus on the street was there was no way that was going to work. It was super inflationary, it was bad and blah, blah, blah. And of course it did work. Right. It saved the whole system and all that. So. But now this time around, everyone thinks that is the answer. That time they didn't think it was the answer, now they think it is the answer. So if they do that, people are probably going to buy into it this time and then they're probably going to get burned. That's what I think. But we have to, we have to get to that point. Yeah. You know, the difference obviously is that back then the risk was on the bank balance sheets, Right. And now the risk is on the government balance sheets. Right. Everyone says, oh, well, the bank balance sheets are all fine now, they're all so well improved and blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, that's true, because it's all been shifted to the, to the government balance sheets. Right. If you think that, you know, the scenario I'm talking about means that the US government is going to go broke. I mean, you're fighting, you talk about fighting city hall, you know, these guys will, will use obviously every trick that they could possibly pull out of their bag to prevent that from happening.

[Ian Cox]

Right.

[Jason Shapiro]

But if and when that is going to happen, it doesn't matter what tricks they pull out of their back, Right? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen. And at a certain point, the more they try stop it, the worse it becomes. So that's why I say let them try to stop it by printing money and then let the markets tell you that that ain't helping. You know, let's stop bonds and the dollar go down on that and then we got a problem. But, you know, I'm not saying that's happening tomorrow. You know, let's. Let's let it happen first.

[Tessa]

Excuse the last interruption here. This is Tessa. We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. If you love the podcast, please give Chat With Traders the best review you can on whatever platform you're listening from. This will help us to keep the episodes coming. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our email list, please hop on to chatwithtraders.com and click on subscribe so we can keep you posted of information that may be of importance. Thank you. Now back to the chat with our guests.

[Ian Cox]

So to wrap up, the last question I have for you is, you said about a year ago, the less I know about these markets, the better I am. Tell us, tell us why you wouldn't. Wouldn't learning more and getting as much information as possible be better?

[Jason Shapiro]

Not really, because I think sometimes you can overthink it. You know, my. My process has worked for me. Right. It's an edge. I believe that that actually has positive return expectation. So that's really all I want to know is what is my process saying? That's all I need to know. I can sit here and talk about, you know, Ponzi schemes and macroeconomics, blah, blah, blah, just like anybody else can. Right. I went to school for economics. I get it. Right. But I don't think it offers me any edge. So overthinking it is. What I'm saying is, can hurt more than it can help.

[Ian Cox]

Well, Jason, I'd like to like to thank you for coming on Chat with Traders.

[Jason Shapiro]

No, I appreciate it, man. It's great talking to you.

[Ian Cox]

Yeah. How can our listeners reach you?

[Jason Shapiro]

Oh, you know, I have this crowded marketreport.com which you can check out on YouTube. I do videos quite often. Certainly once a week, I try to do a video that really focuses more on trading psychology than anything else. I'm not really on there every weekend going, here's what the S P's are going to do this week, because I think that that's stupid, but on YouTube, undercrowded market report, I have a bunch of that stuff. And then I'm on Twitter, too. I post some stuff on Twitter once in a while, too, and then we have a sub stack that's free, but if you go to crowdedmarketreport.com you can kind of pretty much find all these things.

[Ian Cox]

Okay, fantastic.

[Jason Shapiro]

Great.

[Ian Cox]

Thanks for coming on the show.

[Jason Shapiro]

Yep. Appreciate it.

[Ian Cox]

You've reached the end of this episode of Chat with Traders, but rest assured.

[Jason Shapiro]

There are more episodes loaded with real market insight and zero hype on the way soon.

[Ian Cox]

So to stay updated with each great new release, subscribe to the podcast and itunes and we'd love it if you'd.

[Jason Shapiro]

Leave a rating and review. We'll catch you next time on Chat with Traders. Ra.