Vince Chen (11:12)

So you're now leading a university innovation alliance focused on improving graduation outcomes for students from low income families. This mission ties back to your own background. You've worked within the system for a long time. You've seen the problems, experienced the frustrations and reached a point where you decided this is it. You shifted the perspective from competition to collaboration. How did you go about convincing these 11 schools, their presidents and administrations to work together? How did the law being process and food. It must have been like an entrepreneur hitching for investment. How did you make it happen?

Dr. Bridget Burns (12:11)

It originally wasn't my idea, it was Michael Crowe's and he had already found the 11 total. It was so it was him and 10 other presidents. But I will say there was a baseline commitment to a willingness to figure that out together. And I think that, I think at the time these presidents, they were willing to see and they signed up for the chance to figure out how they would do this together. And I think that they had a shared, they share interest in addressing the scale question. And ultimately they realized that they were all wrestling with the same challenge of needing to improve outcomes for populations that we've historically failed. But when I got involved, it was not moving as quickly as it should. And it was because these people had not really spent time building relationships together. And I was willing to actually fly to each of their campuses and spend time. I'm pretty. If there's anything distinctive about me, it's that I'm incredibly curious person. I find people fascinating and just from a human interest perspective, but also I find just all of this work is just endlessly interesting to me. And I found watching leaders figure out like how they lead, how they drive teams, how they advance, how they. These jobs are just so fascinating and difficult. And so each of them was like its own case study that I could observe. And what my job was at the time was to get this moving. And the way I did it though was because through my like, deep curiosity about them, I could see that they had the same problems and they didn't know it. And there was no way they were going to come to that conclusion. Because of the architecture of the sector, higher education is highly competitive. It is hierarchical. We are all a bunch of people who are trying to prove ourselves to each other with our pedigree and our publishing and our rankings. And it's just very much set up that the rewards and trappings pit you against others. And as a result, there's very little space to, to share about shared problems and to really understand that maybe it's not you that's the problem. Maybe it's actually that these systems are problematic in their design. They were not designed around students. Turns out leading a complex bureaucracy with a multi billion dollar footprint print is like really complicated and hard. And that it's also hard to be a human doing that. These people are humans, right? And so I had to do a lot of the weaving of the relationship because they don't have time to get to know each other. They would come to a meeting every three months and it was. They were interested, but I don't think that they would have kept going had I not been able to weave a sense of perspective between them. And for them to know that, hey, Michael Crowe struggles with that thing too, or President Chancellor Wilcox, they're having that same issue at UC Riverside. And in fact, here is a. Here's some anecdotes from that experience that makes them realize that maybe there's other value in working together beyond just teaming up to see if this works. It's actually, wow, it would be nice to have some allies, some buddies. And that's. That was a really big part, I think, that I played. And then also forming the prospectus, which was the, basically the strategy and what we were going to do. And getting 11 college presidents and chancellors in 11 states running institutions, over 25,000 students to sign off on a document that was so significant, including a data sharing agreement and agreeing to match all the money that is raised was really, it required a lot of trust building because there's no way that any one person can read every single line. But for me, I had to and I had to to come up with this consensus based document and how this organization was going to operate. And when I first got to. You talked about like the kind of entrepreneurial aspect of it. When, when I first got to ASU and met Michael Crow, he told me I was a bureaucrat and that I was going to need to become an entrepreneur if I was going to do this and we were going to have to break out that bureau, that bureaucrat. And boy did, boy did we. I don't think I, I wasn't already. I had some entrepreneurial tendencies prior to this, but it just required a willingness to throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall and figure it out and ask for a lot of help and advice from people. But just sitting with the stories that I had to surface of the campuses and the weaving between of what they had in common and then also what this sector really needed to see from leaders that would be fundamentally different than everything they'd seen before. Because at the time higher ed was obsessed with college access, which is just get more people in. That was the strategy. And the other theme was under matching from President Obama, which was basically that low income kids could get into better schools, but they just don't know it. And both of those things are right and fine for that time, but they are missing the biggest problem, which is that there are literally millions of students who are never going to go to college. If a higher ed doesn't change how well it does, how well we serve those students, and that there are millions of people walking around who went to college and the only credential they have is a student loan because they, they failed out because the institution was never designed for them to be successful. And just like the scale of that and the threat that creates for the future economic competitiveness of this country. And it just, it was like a, it's a big problem, but nobody sits with it. It's no one's responsibility to fix that. We all need it to be solved. But when you have college presidents who are hired to run just one institution and their board holds them accountable to move up and down in the rankings against each other, imagine what that does. It doesn't make them want to work on the same team and fight for a bigger cause than themselves. It makes them want to play defense and hunker down and focus only on their institutions. It was just like a, it was a huge, it was a huge challenge to build that. And then also I needed to raise all the money for it to exist. And thankfully the idea was right, the people were right and the and they were responsive and excited. And honestly it's only the momentum has just accelerated from then. Now we have 17 institutions and I say that, but I stopped counting the number of institutions who were asking to join the alliance at 120. And I stopped counting within six months of announcing the alliance. So it's not a question of we could be massive and have all kinds of institutions, but it was about figuring out who first we needed to actually do the thing to actually accomplish our goals of figuring out how to innovate together and scale up what works, hold each other accountable and produce dramatically more graduates, especially from low income backgrounds. But the big challenge I ran into after that was how do you figure out who to let in when you've already built something that's successful? Because then you run into the problem of people want to be a part of something that's successful. They like the image of it, perhaps they like the PR and the marketing and it looks really great. But we needed to figure out who else out there is a worker bee, who else is interested in doing like the really hard stuff and not just drawn to the fact that we will have been very effective at telling our story and amplifying the importance of this work. So that's to this day still one of the biggest problems I face is that vetting issue of who else to let in. Because this could continue to grow, but we have to actually deliver on the outcomes while we're doing it.

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Vince Chen (20:17)

Equal Opportunity Employer Speaking of delivering outcome, I recall from one of your recent speeches that you mentioned people are not actually resistant to change. They resist poorly designed processes. Do you have any specific examples where resistance was due to a poorly designed process and then once the process was improved, you started seeing more and more exciting.

Dr. Bridget Burns (20:55)

So I think that a lot of the time we just have no intentional strategy about change. We expect change to happen and then we don't think about the very human experience of, okay, I come into my office every day. I've worked an entire career with the hopes of being able to see a window. I've worked in a cubicle most of my life. It's a huge deal to finally have an office that I, maybe I don't have a corner office, maybe I just have a window I can see. And now you got to come in here and you're telling me that we're going to be moving our department because we need to do a better job. We need to combine departments because of a need to do data sharing and also to make sure that we're aligning our systems and process with this other department. What I know is that you just told me that I'm going to have to give up this office that I've worked for. You're completely ignoring the things that matter to me, the experiences that have been valuable to me. You haven't for a second given me an opportunity to even offer ideas based on the, let's say 20 year career I have. Let's say I have some expertise to contribute. Instead, you just come in with this pipe dream of an idea. You know what the solution is and you give people no opportunity to add to it, to make it feel like it's an idea that they could be excited about or it doesn't. They don't even get a chance to consider it because all they do is hear, I'm going to change your life, I'm going to change your daily experience. And I respect you so little. I haven't even given you a chance to be part of the process or to offer input. And then, and then we also, what I find is, because that's a regular experience, it's often like physical. Moving offices is like the most like the worst case ex. Every leader will tell you that's the worst. But I could talk to you about consolidating data or getting, switching, advising from being decentralized to centralized. Now you're telling me that I'm going to have a different boss, that what I'm responsible for completely is changing. The students I serve are changing. You're not going to even ask me for input or like I get no buy in on this process. I get no even, I don't even get a chance to touch it. And my daily experience every day from nine to five or whatever is going to change. And you're surprised that I am disappointed or that I might be a little bit grumpy. We just never consider the possibility that people do not. Anyone who says they like change is a liar. You only like the change that was your idea and that you actually agree with. And that is usually a change that's your idea. Right? But if you told me if, like, I came into my office today and you had moved my furniture in my office around, listen, it might be a better flow and layout. But the fact that change happened, that I wasn't like, you didn't give me a second to turn the water temperature up slowly so that I could acclimate to it or that I couldn't offer input. We just jump over these very basic things. And that change is discomfort. It is shifting things around. And we glamorize innovation as though it's literally lasers and rainbows. And the truth is innovation is messy. I've never seen an example where innovation. We're starting something new that you don't the time, it doesn't take longer. It's more difficult. You run into unexpected hurdles. So it's. It's bumpy, it's not smooth, it's not predictable. You can't plan your day. You can't plan. You don't know when you're going to pick your kids up. You don't know when you're going to do all these human things. It's the human stuff that gets in the way because these are human beings. And I just think that too often leaders, we don't have that genuine empathy to think about that for a second, to know that at the end of the day, like, if you're trying to do something where humans are involved, the very basic understanding about human beings is that they are adverse to pain. They don't like pain. They don't. And they like pleasure. They like things that feel good. And what constitutes pain for me is probably different than you. But generally all you got to do is be a little curious to try and figure out the things I value, the things I don't, the things that constitute pleasure for me. Or maybe, maybe I'm extroverted and I don't. I like to talk to people. Maybe I'm introverted, and that's. That sounds terrible if you're offering to give me a speech opportunity. There are ways, though, if leaders will just care about the people that they are trying to lead. And. And again, empathy is the first step of design. If you'll just learn about these people, you can structure an experience that feels good, that actually meets their needs. And so all that to say those. I hope those have been like slightly tangible in terms of relatability. But I can give you a real example of what the best case scenario, like a good example is. And that's you all the time. We do, we use something called process mapping. We didn't invent it, but how the alliance works is I bring campuses together and we do the professional development and build them as a network and a community so they trust each other and talk about the things that are getting in the way and then they help each other out by here's something that worked for me, here's something you can do. In one of those experiences early on, Georgia State University shared about process mapping, which is one of the things they do before they do any new system. Because you have to understand the system that you're bringing a new idea into so that you don't just break bring a new idea into a toxic system. And two people who are at that event are a professor and a person who's been working at the university for, I don't know, a couple months, Very early stage, early early career person. And they got stuck in the airport and they decided that the idea of process mapping was pretty profound and they were going to figure out how to take it back home to Michigan State. That's where they worked. So they went back, they first they got the person who we call a UIA fellow, she's an early career professional. They got her training process mapping, it's like a weekend experience. You go away. And they decided to invite everyone at the university who works on student success into the same room for the first time, which has never happened at the university. And they were going to just target one period of time they were going to map out from the day the student gets admitted to the day they show up on campus. And they invited everyone who works together. And so the process mapping is basically you put a post it note on the wall for every step in a process. Right. You want to actually see the system for how it is instead of our fantasy of it. Anyway, so all these people are in this room, these people who work very individually, they all feel like they have a different lane. They interact with students not very often, but they all work, they care about students. And this is the first time they've ever been invited to come together to see their work connected to each other. And the way the day goes is people start putting post it notes up for these are when we send emails to students, this is when we ask them to do this or that. And throughout the day there's things where people Are like, hey, we should stop doing this system right here. This seems like way too much or redundant or an overlap. And because the people are in the room who oversee that system, they say that reports to me, yeah, 100%, we should stop doing that. And I'm going to make that happen. Another example is someone in the room says, hey, I need this. Clearly I need access to this data. I don't have access to this. The person who someone else in the room raises their hand and says, what's your email? I have access to that data. I'm gonna send it to you now. And so what's happening is this magical thing where people are experiencing real collaboration and a sense of community. They're feeling like they're on the same team. They're actually being reminded of the purpose that they work for students, they care about students. It's activating, it's very exciting. They're getting inspired because they're feeling like they have permission to actually solve problems in real time. And it's just a palpable sense of enthusiasm. Like it feels like this is, oh my God, this is like the kind of experience we want to have. And at the end of that day they take a step back and they look at the post it notes and the headline is they discovered that in the email line that in those three months they were sending every student at Michigan State 450 emails in three months from the day you get admitted to the day you show up. Which is overwhelming and obviously not what anyone knew and not what anyone would want to do. And most universities have no idea that they do that. And most of them are sending more than 450 and. And it's got to stop because it will stop students from registering, it will stop them from being successful. It's overwhelming. If you're a first gen student, it's just, ah, you know how it is. You unsubscribe from emails like gross. They also found that there were 50 types of holds a student could have on their account that they didn't know could exist. The university didn't know. So if we don't know, how are we expecting? You know, the net result of this is the institution is wiser. They're able to solve problems in real time about what the student's experiencing. The community of people in that room feel like they actually own it. They get to decide what's happening. This is exciting. The president's not in the room, right? But since then, multiple Michigan State presidents have heard this story and it lives on. It's A legend. It's also inspired the other UIA campuses to map all the other things they do, whether it's major change or graduation or any like college to career, et cetera. So it's an example of how you can make change feel good, play music, choose a room that's well lit, invite people together to be a part of a process that feels good as opposed to a mandate that comes down from on Hai where you individually are going to be negatively impacted and you get to have no input on the process. And frankly, the idea is rarely good. It's rarely actually the right idea because we know that collaboration brings better ideas. So that's an example. It's just human beings and if we could just have the most basic level acknowledgement of that and care for people, we would create experiences that, that give them a chance to be their best selves and to give their best work and to this work should be fulfilling and it can. I think change is incredibly fulfilling work when well done.

Vince Chen (30:33)

Yeah. Empathy, curiosity and ownership are crucial for change. Like you said, no one really likes change unless it benefits them in some way. It also needs to generate collective benefits. People often ask, why does change, how can we make things better? Why does my contribution matter in this case or that case? How can I help? Maybe I can help more than you expected. Ownership isn't just about being informed or notified. It's about contributing to the evolution of the change and being responsible for the outcome. If the outcome isn't as good as expected, how can we work together to make it better? This sense of ownership, this power of ownership is so impactful.

Dr. Bridget Burns (31:36)

Yes. Invite your people to know, like into the problem that you need to solve. People love to solve problems. People love to be helpful. But what they don't want to be is a cog in a wheel told to do X or Y. And they also literally work in that area. They might have some ideas. Listen, I know that you can have employees that you're like, ah, they're just not going to want it foreign.

Vince Chen (32:08)

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews. Check out our website and follow me on social media on this Chan, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.