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Chief Change Officer
#228 John Gates: Sweaty Palms? How to Negotiate Your Salary Without the Panic
00:43:12
Think salary negotiations are just about money? Think again. John Gates, author of ACT YOUR WAGE, reveals why your paycheck is about more than just numbers—it’s about confidence, clarity, and knowing when to push (without panicking). Whether you’re switching jobs or just trying to bump up your pay, John shares the real secrets to walking away with a deal you actually deserve.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:09]
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- [01:51]
Vince Chen
Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change, progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today's guest, John Gates, is someone who can help you get the most out of your compensation packet, especially when you are making a career switch or transition. When prepping for this interview, I skimmed through his book. It reminded me of my business school days studying negotiation. The concepts really aligned, like in a negotiation focusing on multiple elements instead of just zeroing in on one single number. But here's the challenge. Salary negotiations feel so much more personal. Unlike business deals where you can stay strategic and detached, salary talks bring up fear, emotion and anxiety. If you are a CFO or CEO negotiating a deal, it's different. You have a stick. But it's not as personal as negotiating your own salary. So my question is, with all the emotion tied up in these discussions, how do we break free from focusing on old Numbers and truly maximize our return when making a career move. Let's find out together. John, good morning. Welcome to our show. How did you end up where you are today? What were the key transformation points? Give us a quick overview of your personal and career journey, both the past and the present.
- [04:39]
John Gates
Thank you very much. Vince. I'm so excited to be here and eager to talk about all the secret stuff when it comes to pay negotiations. Something most people want to know about. But first you got to know about me, so that's fair. My career is an interesting one. I grew up really poor and so I self funded my college education working at Domino's Pizza. And I was one of these crazy guys that I was very motivated to get through college as fast as possible. I had to earn money, I had a young family. So I ended up finishing two four year degrees in two and a half years by taking 18 to 20 credits a term, working 30 hours a week at Domino's Pizza to self fund it. It was a crazy, actual burnout time. Young and poor and motivated and ambitious. That's the way it was for me. So I began as a financial analyst and it was really strange. I, I got a job right out of college working for a high tech company as a financial analyst. But two or three weeks before that job was to start, they rescinded all the job offers. And that was a terrible event in my life because I was planning to pursue this career. I had a young family to feed and support and now all of a sudden I was facing unemployment before I even got started. I ended up falling into being a recruiter by mistake. And I don't think recruiting is something that most people pursue on purpose. Most of the time you fall into it by mistake, you end up doing it because it's something you're good at. And I found out that I was really good at it. So I started climbing the corporate ladder in the Fortune 500 as a technical recruiter, very quickly got into leadership and eventually became head of global recruiting for multiple Fortune 500s. During that process though, of chasing the Fortune 500 career and climbing that ladder, I moved many times. I was laid off several times. And I know how terrifying it is to be laid off or separated from a company that once loved you but now no longer needs you. That sucks when it happens. But I moved from Oregon, my home state to Virginia, about as far away from Oregon as you can get. Then I moved from Virginia to Alabama to take another job. Then from Alabama to Indiana for another job, Indiana to St. Louis, Missouri, St. Louis to Texas and then finally Texas, back to my home state of Oregon, which is where I am today. So during all that, I became known as a recruiting process fixer. Now this is some guy who comes in and fixes the problems like a car mechanic. The car is sputtering. It's not running to its full potential. We need to diagnose the issue and fix it. And so that's what I became known for during that time. And while I was the head of global recruiting, I trained hundreds of recruiters on how to negotiate with people. I ended up overseeing about 75,000 job offers at all levels and in multiple industries. So that's where I have been and ultimately came the salary coach.
- [08:09]
Vince Chen
You are a salary coach, which I see as an evergreen profession. Whether the market is up or down, you help people maximize their compensation packages. Many entrepreneurs, coaches, and tech founders start a business because they have faced the same problem. Learn the hard way, and then turn it into a product or service. How has your own experience shaped your journey into salary, strategy and negotiation?
- [08:59]
John Gates
Oh, yes, Vince, thanks for asking this question. I think it's really important because all job seekers go through points of stress change. When you're changing jobs, it's potentially one of the most stressful things you face because there's tremendous risk, there's risk of loss. Fear comes and haunts you. You don't know what's going to happen next. And that's what happened to me, actually, during all these changes. When I moved from Oregon to Virginia, the economy was really bad in Oregon at the time and I got laid off for the first time after the marketing department for the company I was working for made a series of really bad mistakes. They introduced a whole line of products that took a couple years to develop that were completely mismatched with the market. And so investors were screaming for cost controls. Headcount cuts soon came. And when you're in recruiting, like, you're out on the skinny branches of this. When you're growing, you're the most important person at the company because you're fueling that growth. But as soon as the company decides to get smaller, recruiters are a very easy target. Everybody's asking, why do we need such a large recruiter talking to you? Don't touch my department. So I was, I decided to throw the resume to the four winds and see where it landed. And I ended up getting an interview with Capital One Financial in Richmond, Virginia and passed the phone screen, got the face to face interview. I got on a plane and I flew out there and since they had the toughest interview process I have ever seen, their philosophy is to. Is to select only the top 5 to 10% of people. So they have a process that's so tough they're going to decline nine out of ten people who interview. They're only going to offer the job to 1 out of 10 if that. There were like 20 behavioral competencies that I had to pass and if I failed even one of those, I was out. There were three tests that I had to take, and if I failed any one of those on a hard cut score on the test, I was out. There was a business case interview, which is like a big whiteboard exercise where they have you go up to the whiteboard and do some calculations and then make and defend your recommendations. Don't pass that, you are out. But the end of all that I had the recruiter I was working with, his name was Chip. Chip came into the room a couple after hours after I John, I'm just going to lay it out here for you. I've interviewed over 20 people for this job. It's urgent that we get this filled. This was an IT recruiter position right before Y2K, so they had to get this filled. He said, Only two people out of the 20 plus we've interviewed have passed the process. You're one of them. And the other guy just withdrew. And this is where the light bulb really came on for me. He said, john, what's it going to take to get a yes out of you? I really want to go back to the hiring manager, tell him this is spilled. And so what do we need to do to get you to commit to this move to Virginia? So through that process, I was able to get my salary increased by $10,000. I got a signing bonus of $10,000 added in. I moved up a bonus tier, which was big deal at Capital One. Bonuses are a huge part of the culture there and it's part of your status in the organization. And I even adjusted the relocation plan to one that's usually reserved for executives. So I think I did a pretty good job. But I had so much leverage. And I, you know, even I, young in my career knew that I had tremendous leverage there. After they said yes really fast, I spent the next three years at Capital One wondering how much money I just left on the table. And so that kind of itched my brain for the next three years. And I started tracking then as a recruiter, as I was extending offers to candidates, I started tracking how much I was able to close below what was off the price drives. Let's say a hiring manager says, John, we'd like to, we'd like to extend an offer. You can go as high as 310,000, but let's start the negotiation at 285. And by the way, here's a $15,000 signing bonus. Use it if you need to. And this kind of thing happens all the time in corporate recruiting. So I'd start the negotiation at 385 and if I click close at 3. 92, then I just closed below the max. I didn't need the signing bonus. I wrote that down too. And I started setting goals to cover my own salary with negotiation savings every month. And I was able to make that goal real and achieve that. Most months, fame started to spread around within capital. One that I was the guy who knew how to do this. So then I started training other recruiters. Outage. And that's really though what made me understand how much money the average salary person is leaving on the table over the course of time. I decided to switch sides now and help the job candidate to get all that money that's in most cases already been approved. What they're willing to give you want you to have that. And I've developed a system now that helps you to get it safely.
- [14:46]
Vince Chen
Over the years, you've probably come across a lot of negotiation advice that you disagree with. What are some of the worst pieces of advice you've seen out there?
- [15:03]
John Gates
I'd love to get your opinion on this as well, Vince, and maybe you can weigh in after I share my thoughts. You've probably heard some bad advice too, or things that you think are a little sketchy. Most of the advice I see comes from people who have changed jobs a few times in their career. Maybe five, six, seven, eight times, they go out on LinkedIn and they'll say, this is what I usually do and it works for me. But being a recruiter, being the guy that's on the receiving end of these strategies, I see the danger in some of them might have worked for that person, but it's not something you should broadly apply. So here are a few examples I see often. And if you Google salary negotiation, you're probably going to come up with this one. Know your worth and demand your worth, people say, figure out what you're worth. Insist upon that. And when I hear that, what I see is high risk, it's confrontational. It makes it seem like you're going to be this gladiator who has to strap on armor and draw a sword and Go cross swords with somebody in a duel to the death, you're going to know your worth, you're going to demand, you're going to insist. This sort of ultimatum strategy of take it or leave it, this is what I'm worth, is problematic for a lot of reasons. Oftentimes people will go to salary survey companies, they'll find salary data online somewhere and they'll try to use this to justify their value. And I've had that pulled on me as a recruiter often and it usually doesn't work because it's easy for the recruiter to argue with salary data. Salary survey data is notoriously squishy. They might be pulling it from competitors that I don't compete against. So I don't care what company A offers people. If I don't want to hire people out of company A, so, or industry B or something like that. That demanding eye confrontation style is something that I really guide my clients against. I bring them more into a collaborative style. When you're making an ultimatum, there's usually an off ramp. You're saying, take it or leave it. That gives the other person the chance to say, okay, I'm leaving it. And that means it's high risk in the name of salary negotiation too. I think another big mistake that people make is they let their fear dominate them in the process. Now, I think everybody who's listening here, you, you're yourself too. Vince, probably been in transition before where you're in a spot where you don't have a job, got rent to pay, mouths to feed. You're terrified sometimes when you're in transition, especially in a bad economy, you're worried that you might not get another offer anytime soon. It might be eight or nine or ten months before you get an offer. And that fear pushes you into this place where you are too conservative. You want to avoid that risk so much. You want to advance to interviews. So you lowball yourself in the phone screen. You want to put this job search uncertainty behind you, so you take the offer that comes because it's good enough, instead of poking at a little bit to see what else they might be able to do. So being dominated by your fear, I think is one of the common mistakes that people make. And this advice, going out and demanding your worth doesn't acknowledge the fear that most people feel when they're in this process. I guess the last mistake that I'd like to make or mention here is that some people think that negotiation starts when you get an offer. I think that negotiation is a process and it's true you begin negotiating when an offer is in your hand. However, there's a lot of positioning and prep work that goes into getting the best offer in the beginning. I'll tell a story about a client that came to me recently and said, john, I just got a low ball offer. It's 30% less than what I thought I was going to get. And this person wasn't a client from the beginning. They called me right there at offer stage with the, with a low ball offer and I started to explore it with this client and said, okay, tell me what you told them early in the process. Like how did you apply? What did you say when you applied? What did you say in the phone screen? Now tell me about your interview process. When you talked about money, how did you do that? Throughout all of these opportunities to discuss money and your worth and your value and the value that you're going to bring to their company. But turned out that he stepped on a whole bunch of landmines that he didn't even know was there. And it's the mistakes he made earlier in the process is what drove him to get this 30% lowball offer. Now if you get a lowball offer like that, you can make a small adjustment, you can move up a little bit, but you're probably not moving that offer up 30%. Now think of it this way, like they just gave him a 72 Volkswagen Super Beetle and he wants a Mercedes. What we could probably do at this stage is paint the VW Beetle a different color. We can put some nice rims on it, but we're probably never getting him the Mercedes at this stage. They already believe that he's worthy of the Volkswagen Beetle.
- [21:08]
Vince Chen
Given your knowledge of the challenges job seekers typically face, can you walk us through your process for helping them? Do you start with a mindset change or focus on the overall goal first and work backward step by step?
- [21:37]
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- [22:07]
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- [22:23]
John Gates
That's a really interesting question. Where do I start? I think I start with some transparency. It's important to be transparent to get the most out of this. We have to acknowledge that we have fear and anxiety relating to money conversations. There's a lot at stake, and I think most people are afraid, afraid that if they answer these questions wrong, they will not. They'll be screened out, they won't get a chance to interview. And if interviews are rare, the. The stakes multiply. The worst thing that can happen is you get all the way to the offer stage. Now you start negotiating. And since you're negotiating, maybe the company gets frustrated with your approach and they rescind the offer. Now you've got to go back to your family, your friends, your support system, and instead of celebrating, you have to tell them that you're starting over again. And that's the worst disaster of all. So I, I start off with some transparency. I want to understand their story, their personality, and their secret fears, and I reassure them. I have a very reassuring style and an encouraging style. One of the things that's important to know is that you can still be a very nice person and get everything you need out of a pay negotiation. You do not have to be the gladiator to get this done. In fact, it's a better approach to be a nice person and to be a collaborator in the process. You'll get more money in the end doing it this way. And I think that's a huge relief for most people to hear that they don't have to change their personality, that I'm going to work with their personality as a coach, teach them how to say things in their own words, to navigate that minefield that's ahead of them so they can then safely get the best package that they could get. So I want to understand their goals as well. Why negotiating important for you at this point in your life? And I think everyone has their own reasons. But it might be that, yeah, I'm approaching retirement, I want to pile up the. The biggest nest egg I can, or I'm early in my career and a negotiation gain right now is going to pay me for the next 30 years. Like, maybe that's a house for somebody over the course of their career, or maybe their children are preparing to go to college and they're wondering how they're going to fund that. But when you're in transition, there's a huge opportunity to make a big impact Here. And if you don't take advantage of it, then you're stuck with whatever, you know, they offered you for the next five or six years or however long you're with that company. So people know there's an opportunity here, but they don't know how to take full advantage of it safely. So I spend a lot of time just reassuring them and it's going to be okay. And I teach them scripts and how to say things that make sense. The light bulbs start coming on, they start experimenting with these scripts and they see early success. So we move into the salary coach method. Once we understand their goals, their personality, their fears, and how all this is going to affect how they approach it. So anyone can learn this though, and it's a skill that you can learn and it puts cash in your pocket, every single paycheck. But you have to learn what to say and how to say it at every single step. So that's square one, learning some scripts at the stage that you're in. So if you're in the phone screen stage, you have to learn what to say in a phone screen to get through that with your skin still on, without lowballing yourself. I teach them then how to build leverage through the process so that the power shifts away from the company and to them subtly and slowly over time. You need to build leverage in order to get the best deal at the end. So advancing through phone screens without risk or limiting yourself building value in the interviews and how to become the preferred candidate. You're not going to get an offer unless you're the preferred candidate. So how do you do that? I spend a lot of time developing that with my clients. Then ultimately, how to get the best first offer, every dollar that's still on the table, we want that to come to you without putting the offer at risk. In that early example where maybe there was a signing BONUS up to 15,000, I didn't need it. I'm going to teach you how to discover if a signing bonus is available, possible, all that stuff, and we can get it included for you. That's, that's pretty much it, I think. Another thing that we focus on a lot, you mentioned it earlier, Vince, and that is a shift from salary only mindset into a total compensation mindset. Every company is a little bit different in how they approach paying people. Some companies, they've got all the eggs in the salary basket. There's nothing else, it's just salary. And other companies have a significant incentive plan. Some have long term incentives like stock or ownership positions that are Complex. Others have a really rich benefits plan. And it's important to realize that you can negotiate on multiple fronts, not just the salary front. You can move your level up. You can even negotiate on things like severance. This is. This sounds a little bit crazy because everybody hears that and they'll think this sounds like a prenuptial agreement on the eve of the wedding. Do I really want to bring up severance when I'm trying to convince them to hire me? Because it's makes it look like I've got one foot out the door. But yes, you can. And there is a safe way to do it. You just have to do it at exactly the right time and precisely the right way. There's a lot of ways you can. You can approach things. And lately, even money has taken a backseat. For some people, what they really want is workplace flexibility. Can I work remotely or can I be in the office only two days a week? Those are all things that are negotiable. And that's one of your goals. We work on it together to see if we can get that in. And most people underestimate or don't understand the offer approval process. And this is really important. It's quite political. And the more senior you are, the more political it gets. Basically, after you interview, if they decide you're the one that they want, that supervisor has to go to their boss and maybe a committee of other people and convince them, this is the offer I want to make. This is why I want to make that. And they have to defend the numbers at that stage. This is why it is difficult to go back and get that Mercedes later. If the hiring manager has gone out in a political environment and said, this is what I want to do, and this is why I want to do it, it's really difficult to go back and get a second bite at that apple. You might get a nibble, a small adjustment, but by the time that initial offer comes, difficult politically to get significant shifts. Really important to position right throughout all these conversations to get, you know, to give that manager the very best ammunition they can have when they go in to say, I want to make a significant offer here. And this is why.
- [30:31]
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- [31:01]
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- [31:36]
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- [31:54]
Vince Chen
I recall you once described yourself as a prosecutor in the past, but now you see yourself as a defense attorney. Similar to a lawyer, a defense attorney, your fees are tied to the work done and the outcome like a performance or incentive fee. The difference is the legal profession has strict rules and penalties for misconduct for criminal behavior. Yet in your profession in your area there aren't government regulations or penalties, basically only self regulated codes of conduct and ethical standards. My question for you is how do you assure your clients that your recommendations are in the best interests and not driven by your economic incentives?
- [33:03]
John Gates
Yeah, this is a great question too. And I do view myself as a former prosecutor became a defense attorney. I think the best defense attorneys are people who used to be prosecutors because they understand the tactics and strategy and what the other prosecutor is trying to achieve. So I think that's an apt analogy. But I think that what's in the best interest of the client becomes evident really fast. I start teaching them how to have safe conversations about pay almost immediately and so practical steps and script that they can use so very experimentally I will teach them and drill them and rehearse with them first and then they actually try it in their next interaction and they very quickly are starting to see wow, silver bullet after silver bullet. Now I know what to put in an application and my phone actually rings. Now I know how to say the right things in a phone screen and I advance to the interview without feeling like I have to lowball myself. This builds their confidence that everything that I'm teaching them how to do is good and accurate and makes perfect sense. So over the course of time then that Usually results in a very strong offer for them. And when I first started this business, I did have a gain share fee model I thought was going to appeal to absolutely everybody. In other words, my deal with my early clients was, I'm not going to charge you a dime to work with me, and instead we going to figure out how much you think you could get on your own without my help, and then we'll figure out where we landed together, setting the mutual goal to score above that. Whether it was 15,000 or 150,000, I was going to take a small percentage of the gain and give them almost all the rest. And that seemed like a fair approach, but for a variety of reasons that failed. I think people, and I discovered this along the way, Vince. A lot of people were reluctant. Even though I was only taking a small percentage, they thought, what if my gain is $500,000? That bill could be really big. Even though their gain was going to be several times larger. The uncertainty of not knowing what it would cost was an obstacle for a lot of people that I didn't really anticipate that was going to be the case. So, you know, the podcast name here is Chief Change Officer. And when you're an entrepreneur, you have to adapt to what the world is giving you. So I made a few adjustments there, and now I'm in a new model where people can know exactly what it's going to cost before they begin the relationship. I can, I can spread payments out, and what I make is not tied directly to how much we gain. And that's for a few different reasons. But some of the stuff that we go after is hard to quantify. For example, if the company we're chasing after offers stock options, it's really hard to know what a stock option is worth without going to something like a black Scholes model or something like this. How much is three extra weeks of vacation time worth? How can we calculate the gain? Essentially, I wanted to get aligned with the needs of my client, whatever their goals are, whether they're financial. Otherwise, we're going to go after every single thing that is important to them and get as much as we can. At the end of it, they're assured that they got the best offer that they could get. We don't twist arms. We don't force companies to do anything uncomfortable. We're finding the maximized, comfortable offer, and the employer is going to celebrate when they close you. That's our goal. We don't want to destroy relationships on the way in for the sake of a little extra Money. Likewise, sometimes my clients want. They express that they want more than I think it. You know, I think it's gonna. I think it's gonna set up an uncomfortable performance expectation. If I feel that might be a risk, I tell them about it. I let them make their own decision about how they're gonna proceed. But sometimes, if you're making such a high salary, they may expect you to work 16 hours a day or set you up with unrealistic performance expectations. That's just going to sabotage your work experience over time. We don't want that either. We want healthy, balanced and prosperous. That's the goal at the end.
- [38:18]
Vince Chen
For those who may not be able to afford your services may buy your book or listen to this episode for your insights. Can you give us a couple of pieces of actionable advice, something they can use to help themselves ease the pressure and open up new horizons of thoughts before seeking professional help?
- [38:49]
John Gates
Oh, sure. Yeah. In fact, I think I could probably give you more than five, if that's okay. It is always frustrating to me that good advice on pay negotiation is really hard to find. In fact, I think I'm unique in the world. I don't think there's anybody else that does what I do as a specialty. So here's a bunch of things that I think people could use immediately, whether they hire me as a coach or buy my book or join the salary coach academy, which is another way. But in the application, when you're filling out an application, it's going to ask you for your salary requirement. Everybody knows that this is a screening question. A recruiter is going to be looking at that and deciding whether they're going to call you. And this is a point of anxiety for a lot of people. First bit of advice here is do not put in open or negotiable or something like that. Put a number in the box. And the reason for that is recruiters are extremely busy. There are a lot of applicants right now. For every job, a recruiter only has time to call five or six people. And if 10, if 10 people meet all the qualifications, you could call 10, but only has time to call five, he's going to call the five that he's pretty sure are going to pan out. If you put in open or negotiable in there, it's a major area where he might schedule the time to call you and then realize very quickly that was a mistake. So putting a number in there I think is very important. The number you put in there should be on the low side of what you'd be willing to accept. This is not going to lowball you though, because tip number two, you're going to write that down and then when the phone rings, you're going to reframe that number into a range in that phone screen. So you're going to back off that number and you're going to say my. I'm actually looking at a range between A and B. They'll ask you in that phone screen to confirm your pay requirement and if they don't, you need to bring it up. Otherwise you might be stuck with that number you put in the application. This is really important that you shift into a range in the phone screen. So tip number three here is shift away from salary and get into a total compensation conversation as quickly as possible. A lot of companies now are posting the salary range with the job and that's a good thing. But what you don't know is that the minimum to the maximum of the salary range, is it the minimum to the midpoint of the salary range? Is it the likely salary range that they're likely to close in? Is there a level above that you could have access to that's not even published? You don't know any of this stuff. But shift away from salary and into total compensation because you also don't know if those numbers contain incentives. The higher up you go in your career, the more incentives will be part of your package. You might go from a 10% bonus to a 75% bonus. In fact, senior executives find that salary is the smallest part of their package. That incentives are by far significantly larger. And you might have an equity package that's worth a million dollars when your base salary is 350 or 400,000. So understanding the total pay package really important and how it's structured in each company is different. Another tip here is use AI to prepare for interviews. I'm working on something that will go into the Salary Coach Academy. It's called lisa, which stands for Learn Interview Skills and Abilities. And when Lisa is finished, she's going to go into the Salary Coach Academy in any member will have access to her. She's going to be like an interview sparring partner. You'll be able to upload your resume and your job description of the place you're going to be interviewing for. And Lisa will discern the likely interview questions that you'll be asked and will verbally ask you those questions. And then at the end of the process, we'll give you feedback on how well you did. But ChatGPT is a you can use this right now, immediately, today, even if you're not a member of the academy, you can go to ChatGPT, you can upload the job description and you can ask it based on this job description and the company's name. Give me 50 sample interview questions that are likely to come at me based on this job description and the company's known culture, and you'll get 50. If you ask for 100, you'll get 100. This is really useful in preparing to interview, just to warm your brain cells up. And then once you're in interviews, don't waste your questions on curiosity. At the end of every interview, usually there's five or six minutes and they'll say, what questions do you have for me? A lot of times people ask questions about the benefits or the culture or things like that. You can satisfy your curiosity later. Use this time to sell yourself. It's a missed opportunity that most people miss. Don't be that person. Use this as a chance to distinguish yourself by asking the right questions and selling yourself. So you want to find out what their biggest problems and pain points are during this time, and then say something strong. If you hire me, you don't have to worry about that pain anymore more because. And then you describe your experience. I fixed that problem before. This is how I did that. Don't use ultimatums. That's bad. We talked about that before. And don't move the goal posts. What I mean by that is like, I had a client very recently, an executive level client. We'd gone through a couple of stages of negotiation, got pretty close to a final agreement, and he said, you know what? We haven't asked them to move the equity. I feel like we could move the equity up. I think we should go after more stock. And we're negotiating with the CEO. The CEO has already gone to a compensation committee of the board of directors to get the offer approved to the point where you have one and a half bites at the apple. We already took our full bite. We can do a tiny modification, but we're to ask for more equity now would make the CEO feel like he's moving the goalposts. If I say yes to this, what's the next thing he's going to ask for? So the best strategy here is to present what you want in a batch, not one at a time. Otherwise it could put your offer at risk.
- [46:09]
Vince Chen
Thank you for coming. John. Congratulations on your new book. The title is act yout Wage. I hope you enjoyed our interview.
- [46:20]
John Gates
It was so much fun. Vince, thank you.
- [46:31]
Vince Chen
So much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews. Check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.
- [47:01]
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