#251 Work3 Institute Co-Founder Josh Drean: Employment is Dead. Now What? — Part Two

Summary

Podcast Summary: Chief Change Officer Episode #251 Title: Work3 Institute Co-Founder Josh Drean: Employment is Dead. Now What? — Part Two
Host: Vince Chan
Guest: George Dream
Release Date: March 24, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #251 of Chief Change Officer, host Vince Chan delves deeper into the evolving landscape of employment with special guest George Dream, Co-Founder of Work3 Institute and co-author of the provocative book Employment is Dead. Now What? This second part of the series continues to explore why traditional employment models are becoming obsolete and what the future of work might look like in the wake of emerging technologies like Web3 and AI.

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The Death of Traditional Employment Models

George Dream opens the discussion by presenting the core thesis of his book: traditional employment is dying. He introduces the concept of the "10 Operating Principles of Work3," which serve as the foundational guidelines for modern workforce management. These principles emphasize the need for interoperability, flexibility, autonomy, and ownership—elements that are increasingly demanded by today's workforce.

Key Insight: Interoperability

At [05:08], George explains, “We call it the 10 operating principles of Work3. These are the non-negotiables of the modern-day workforce.” He emphasizes that interoperability allows employees to engage with multiple organizations, projects, or decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs) simultaneously. This flexibility is crucial for workers who seek to diversify their income streams and avoid the rigidity of traditional full-time roles.

Notable Quote: Flexibility in Work Schedules

George highlights the importance of flexibility in operational structures:
“A lot of them are logging on at 9 pm at night so that they can get some deep work done...” [05:08]

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The Genesis of the Book

Vince Chen inquires about the collaboration between George Dream and Deborah, the co-founder of Work3 Institute, in writing their book. George recounts the unconventional start—Deborah cold-called him with the idea, which led to the creation of a compelling proposal that eventually caught the attention of Harvard Business Review (HBR) Press.

Notable Quote: From Cold Call to Publication

George narrates the serendipitous beginning:
“I was leaving the office one day and got this call. I know this sounds completely random, but do you want to write a book together?” [07:03]

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Navigating the Publishing Landscape

When asked about getting HBR on board, George describes the process as organic and driven by the strength of their ideas. Their proposal, rich with research and forward-thinking concepts, attracted multiple publishers, ultimately leading to HBR's commitment.

Key Insight: The Role of Emerging Technologies

George emphasizes how emerging technologies like AI and Web3 are reshaping workforce dynamics:
“The strength of the idea and really that feeling inside of everyone that something's not working here and something needs to change...” [10:40]

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Challenges in the Publishing Process

Vince probes into the timeline of writing and publishing the book, to which George candidly responds about the lengthy process, spanning approximately two and a half years. He contrasts this with the rapid pace of technological innovation, suggesting that traditional publishing may struggle to keep up with the speed at which new ideas and technologies emerge.

Notable Quote: The Need for Faster Information Dissemination

“We're in the age of information... we just need to find new ways of disseminating information that makes sense.” [13:24]

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The Relevance of Degrees in the Modern Workforce

In a thought-provoking segment, Vince challenges George on the enduring value of traditional degrees amidst the rise of alternative credentials and skills-based hiring. George responds by dissecting the true purpose of degrees, arguing that while academic credentials open doors, the real value lies in the networking opportunities and resources that prestigious institutions provide.

Notable Quote: Degrees Beyond Academics

“The interesting thing about attending school at Harvard is... we're really there for the connections and for the resources.” [17:28]

He also points out the disparity where some individuals leverage their privileged backgrounds to secure positions without necessarily contributing meaningfully, highlighting the need to reassess how value is measured in the workplace.

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

Vince wraps up the episode by acknowledging the profound journey from a cold call to the publication of a groundbreaking book. He hints at the next episode, which will delve into the Work3 framework and provide actionable strategies for companies to implement meaningful change rather than superficially addressing it.

Notable Quote: Embracing Change

“These are so the Chief Change Officer.” [Not a direct quote, but emphasizing the show's mission]

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Key Takeaways

1. Traditional Employment is Obsolete: The conventional 9-to-5 job structure no longer aligns with the needs and expectations of modern workers.
2. 10 Operating Principles of Work3: These principles provide a blueprint for creating a more adaptable, employee-centric workforce.
3. Importance of Flexibility and Autonomy: Workers demand greater control over their schedules and the ability to engage in multiple projects or roles simultaneously.
4. Networking Over Degrees: The true value of higher education lies in the connections and resources it provides rather than the degree itself.
5. Need for Agile Information Dissemination: In an era of rapid technological advancement, traditional publishing may lag, necessitating new methods for sharing knowledge and ideas.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Chief Change Officer offers a compelling examination of why traditional employment is failing and what the future holds. George Dream's insights challenge listeners to rethink established norms and embrace a more flexible, interconnected approach to work. As organizations continue to navigate these changes, the principles outlined in this discussion provide a valuable roadmap for fostering a more dynamic and fulfilling work environment.

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Join the Conversation: Stay updated with Chief Change Officer by following on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

Transcript

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[Vince Chen]

Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer, I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change. Progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Foreign diving into the future of work with George Dream. George is a Harvard mba, a startup founder, and the co author of the book called Employment is Dead. Yes, you hear it right. That is a very bold statement. But he's got a story to back it up. Across this three part series, we'll explore why traditional employment models are failing, how emerging technologies like Web3 and AI are reshaping work, and what companies must do to survive. We'll also go behind the scenes of George's book, how a cold call turned into a major publishing deal and why the old ways of managing people just don't cut it anymore. Whether you are an employee, an employer, or just curious about where work is headed, this series will challenge the way you think. So would it be fair to say that the metaverse, web3 and all these emerging technologies are essentially bridges, tools that help us redefine the employee experience not just in one way, but in ways that actually make sense for our lives, our productivity, our outcome and our well being. Would you put it that way?

[George Dream]

Yeah. So we actually write in the book, we call it the 10 operating principles of work 3. These are the non negotiables of the modern day workforce. I work with people, leaders all over the world and I show them these principles. I say can you offer any of your employees any of these today? And if the answer is no, why should they work for you? And they're really on a spectrum. There are some that are deeply technical, like interoperability. They want to jump from job to job, they want to mix and match several streams of income. They don't want to be a full time employee at your organization. They want to work on several different projects against across several different DAOs or decentralized autonomous organizations. And then there are stuff that is readily apparent today, like flexibility. There's flexibility, autonomy, ownership. How do we allow employees to work flexibly so that they can work on their circadian rhythm? Right. A lot of them are logging on at 9pm at night so that they can get some deep work done. Or they work really well in the morning before the kids are awake. Or they like being able to run out and pick up their kids from school at 3pm without skipping a beat. So it just is tragic to me to see that we are returning to the office so forcefully in this 9 to 5 structure instead of moving forward in a way that makes sense for the employee and their work life balance. And again, that's on this end of the spectrum of flexibility. There's this end of the spectrum that's interoperability. And all throughout, there are all the elements that you need to design a better employee experience.

[Vince Chen]

You mentioned that you and Deborah, the co founder of Work3Institute, Work on this book together with you. I know there's quite a story behind how this book came to be. Can you share that with us here?

[George Dream]

Yeah, it's quite an interesting story. I feel if you are writing a book with Harvard Business Review Press especially, it feels like a lot of times it would be. I've been a professor for many decades. My colleagues and I have written several books together. And so we're finally ready to write with hbr. That is the opposite of what happened with Deborah. And I was actually she was running her own conference, a Web3 conference out of Silicon Valley. She's based out of Silicon Valley, she's written several books. She's fairly renowned in the Silicon Valley space. And she was putting on this conference that I was fascinated in. So I submitted my proposal based on some of the research in these initial ideas. I essentially remember the title being, the Future of Work is not Employment, it's the Metaverse. And she pretty much saw that, saw the opportunity for a book, and Cold called me. I was leaving the office one day and got this call. I know this sounds completely random, but do you want to write a book together? And I chuckled to myself and said, absolutely. And the first thing she said to me is, like, that title that you wrote was good. It's not sticky enough, though. Like, how can we make it more sticky? And so we came up with employment instead, not thinking that it would stick. Honestly, we thought HBR was going to change that. But the idea was strong enough that they loved it. And thus the book was born.

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How.

[Vince Chen]

Did you get HBR on board with this book? They publish a lot of business books, many from professors, industry leaders and big name executives. Of course, Deborah is a leader in her space and you have your HBS background, but pitching a book idea is never easy. So how did you make the case? What convinced them that this was a book they had to publish? What did that process look like?

[George Dream]

Yeah, honestly, it was quite an organic experience. You put together a book proposal which is essentially, here's the theme of the book, here's how we want to write it. You fill, you write a sample chapter, you have pretty much everything mapped out and ready to go. And Deborah and I found it so easy to put that together. Before we knew it, we had 120 pages of this proposal which was much too long. But it was just all of these emerging technologies. We were excited about all of the research that we were seeing, all of the young startups who were coming to me out of the Harvard innovation labs and saying, hey, we want to leverage these technologies, we want to do something different. These are even minds, right? These very ambitious next level, the next Mark Zuckerbergs, if you will. And we were fascinated in the way that they were building their teams, engaging with talent. It was just so fluid and so natural that it just felt like wow, like this is definitely a better model than what we have, which is employment rules and I give you X amount of dollars, you give me X amount of time, no questions asked. That's how things doesn't. It's not how it works in the age of information. The proposal came together nicely. We actually shopped it around quite a bit, right? You give it to all the publishers, see what they say, and if more than one publisher is interested in the book, then it goes to auction, which was the case with us. We had several. Surprisingly, we had quite a few publishers interested in it and HBR was interested as well. They threw their hat in the ring. We knew they were the clear winner when we, when they decided that they wanted to jump on it. But I think the strength of the idea and really that feeling inside of everyone that something's not working here and something needs to change and saying it in a different way of there's so many people come out and tackle it from a culture perspective. Oh, it's just the culture. You need to change the culture of the organization. We very much say, yes, that's the case. But when you look underneath the culture, there's a structure in place that keeps employees put, that keeps them small. That doesn't measure the right things anymore. We're measuring time. Sitting at your desk rather than output never made sense to me. So it was just a natural fit. To answer your question, how long did.

[Vince Chen]

The whole book process take? Now you are at the finish line with the launch, but of course, that's really just the beginning of a new chapter. From that initial cold call to getting to this point, how long was the journey? What did that timeline look like?

[George Dream]

Too long. It was too long. And here's the thing that most companies are going to experience and feel, right, is that if we can't pivot fast enough, like we are going to be left behind. It's interesting how you see some of these major book publishing agencies, right? They have done things the same way for a really long time. And it works. And it still works to this day, right? There's no arguing with that. But when you think of the pace of change and the speed of innovation, especially when we're talking about AI and the advances that we're making today with AI, could you imagine writing a chapter about AI a year ago and then having publish a year later, I feel like we're able to really hone in on the underlying principles of the book. And it will be an evergreen book. However, if you are writing about technology and we're on a change management podcast where we value change, it's hard to see that. To answer your question, the process was about. By the time the book publishes, it'll be two and a half years. A long process. And that's just how things have been done. But in the meantime, I have been leveraging channels like TikTok and LinkedIn and YouTube to promote content and keep people up to know with what's happening now with technology that's a much faster medium to get to your listeners and your viewers. And even though it might not be as prestigious or as large of a channel as hbr, we just need to find new ways of disseminating information that makes sense.

[Vince Chen]

About 10 years ago, I actually published two books in Chinese, not in English. That's why I never sent you my books. One was with a commercial publisher and the other was through a university publisher in China. I finished both within two years and one for Hong Kong, the other distributed at the national level in China. Long story short, I've always appreciated the depth a book brings. At some point, I love to write one in English because a book isn't just a quick ebook or temp page summary. It holds real thought, deep reflection and analytical depth. These days, sure, a lot of people use AI tools to generate content. Actually going through the full process like you did, building a platform, engaging with an audience, testing ideas, and then rolling out a fully developed book, that's something I truly admire. For that reason, I spent over an hour diving into your book and certain chapters really caught my attention, especially the ones on talent, skills, credentials and degrees. You and I. You are from Harvard. I'm from Yale. Above beneficiaries of brand name degrees in the traditional playbook that gave us a clear advantage in securing opportunities. But with emerging technologies, are degrees becoming less and less relevant and useful? In your book you talk about how employers still claim to degree requirements. It's a tough mindset to break. As someone who has benefited from a prestigious degree, just like I have. What's your take? Do degrees still matter? Or as a time for new way of thinking, working and doing?

[George Dream]

Yeah, that is a really great question. And you need to. I think we need to just hone in on what is the purpose of a degree. And I will say that one part about your thing of we are beneficiaries of, you know, brand degrees. The interesting thing about attending school at Harvard is that there's this idea of the subject matter is fine, but we're really there for the connections and for the resources. That holds much more weight than the actual degree itself. It's who are you connected to? What opportunities do you have? And as you probably are aware, there's a portion of students who got in because they had very wealthy or well connected parents. They don't take their education seriously and somehow they're able to land a pretty decent job. Or they go and take over their parents textile factory in India somewhere.

[Vince Chen]

What a story, right? From a cold call to a book that's making waves, George is proof that big ideas can come from anywhere. But now let's get tactical. In the next episode we'll explore the Work3 framework, how companies can actually implement change instead of just talking about it. If you want to know what's next for work, you won't want to miss this. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget subscribe to our show, Leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm this Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time. Take care. Foreign.

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