#287 Richard H. Carson: The 39-Step Playbook for Change That Doesn’t Collapse — Part One

Summary

Chief Change Officer Podcast Episode #287: Richard H. Carson - The 39-Step Playbook for Change That Doesn’t Collapse — Part One

Release Date: April 10, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode and Guest

In episode #287 of the Chief Change Officer podcast, host Vince Chen welcomes Richard H. Carson, a seasoned consultant, strategist, and organizational change management expert. This two-part series delves into Carson's comprehensive 39-step change model, aimed at facilitating sustainable organizational transformation without collapse. The conversation promises practical insights, honest reflections, and memorable stories from Carson's extensive experience across various industries and cultures.

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Richard Carson’s Background and Journey

Richard Carson begins by sharing his eclectic career path, emphasizing a philosophy centered around "carpe diem" or "seize the day." Despite his initial aspirations to become an archaeologist, Carson’s journey led him through architecture, urban planning, community development, and ultimately into consulting. His transition was driven by a passion for solving organizational problems and a fascination with community dynamics.

Richard Carson [04:48]: "I have not... planned my career and taken a particular trajectory. I basically seized on opportunities, career opportunities as they presented themselves."

Carson highlights his tenure as the regional planning director for the Portland Metro area and his advisory roles to three governors of Oregon, showcasing his ability to handle large-scale community and organizational challenges. His shift to consulting was sparked by a performance audit experience that ignited his interest in organizational psychology and change management.

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The Nature of Change in Organizations

The discussion moves to the inherent challenges organizations face when implementing change. Carson asserts that many entities approach change with a narrow focus, often misidentifying symptoms rather than addressing root causes.

Richard Carson [09:00]: "Chances are they're wrong. Chances are that isn't the actual problem—the problem. It's a symptom of something else."

Carson explains that his approach begins with comprehensive engagement across all organizational levels to uncover the true issues before proposing solutions. This method contrasts with traditional consulting practices where recommendations are often top-down and detached from the organization's daily realities.

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Evolution of Change Management Models

Vince Chen inquires about the historical context of change management models, prompting Carson to reflect on the evolution from Kurt Lewin's foundational work.

Richard Carson [19:34]: "All these models since 1947 have followed that basic three phases one way or another. Sometimes it's five, sometimes it's seven. But they all basically say you go in and shake it up, you reform it, then you maintain it."

Carson reviews key milestones in change management, including Lewin’s three-phase model (Unfreeze, Change, Refreeze), Ross’s stages of grief as a metaphor for change, and Edward Deming’s statistically driven approaches tailored initially for the Japanese automotive industry. He observes that despite the proliferation of new models, the core principles largely remain rooted in these early frameworks.

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Carson's People Sustained Change Management Model

Distinguishing his approach, Carson introduces his proprietary model: People Sustained Organizational Change Management. This model builds upon traditional frameworks by deeply integrating the human element into every phase of change.

Richard Carson [24:14]: "Organizations consist of people. And it's people that are the problem, people that are the solution."

Carson critiques existing models for their lack of emphasis on employee engagement and buy-in. He argues that sustainable change cannot occur without involving the entire organization, ensuring that every member has a role and stake in the transformation process.

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Steps in the 39-Step Playbook

Delving into the specifics of his model, Carson outlines the 10 preliminary steps that lay the foundation for his detailed 39-step process:

1. Problem Identification & Scoping: Clearly defining and understanding the issue at hand.
2. Kickoff Meeting: Engaging the entire organization through interactive sessions rather than impersonal communications.
3. Data Collection & Assessment: Gathering comprehensive data, including statistical analyses and stakeholder feedback.
4. Stakeholder Engagement: Meeting with all relevant parties—vendors, consumers, employees—to gather diverse perspectives.
5. Organizational Change Diagnostics: Applying diagnostic models akin to medical assessments to identify organizational "ailments."
6. Change Implementation: Mapping processes and re-engineering workflows to address identified issues.
7. Locking in Change: Ensuring the change is ingrained through leadership coaching, staff training, and Total Quality Management (TQM) practices.
8. Maintaining the Model: Establishing multi-year strategic plans and feedback loops to continuously monitor and sustain change.

Richard Carson [30:01]: "No one has had any input... a lot of times what happens is it won't work because the consultant didn't dig down in the organization to find out what the real problem was."

Carson emphasizes the importance of tailoring each step to the unique needs of the organization, ensuring that change is not only implemented but also maintained over time.

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Practical Implementation and Examples

Throughout the episode, Carson shares real-world examples to illustrate his model's effectiveness. He recounts his experience with a Southern California county government where superficial problem statements masked deeper organizational issues. By engaging with frontline staff and stakeholders, Carson was able to uncover underlying problems and provide actionable recommendations that garnered wider acceptance and participation.

Richard Carson [14:22]: "Look, if you do this, if you work on this, your life, your career, your work environment will be better, not worse."

This approach contrasts sharply with leaders who impose change through threats and top-down directives, which Carson notes leads to significant resistance and fear among employees.

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Conclusion and Next Steps

As the episode draws to a close, Vince Chen recaps the key takeaways, highlighting Carson’s critiques of traditional models and the emphasis on human-centric approaches in his 39-step playbook. Carson teases the continuation of the discussion in Part Two, promising deeper insights into the practical application of his model and the human elements that consultants often overlook.

Vince Chen [33:30]: "We've heard how Richard stumbled into consulting, survived a time tracking nightmare, and started seeing patterns in all the wrong problems. But next we get into the real playbook, the Book of Change. Why 39 steps might not be too many and human stuff consultants usually skip."

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe, leave reviews, and follow the podcast on various platforms to stay updated on the upcoming episode.

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Notable Quotes

• Richard Carson [04:48]: "I basically seized on opportunities, career opportunities as they presented themselves."
• Richard Carson [09:00]: "Chances are they're wrong... It's a symptom of something else."
• Richard Carson [19:34]: "They all basically say you go in and shake it up, you reform it, then you maintain it."
• Richard Carson [24:14]: "Organizations consist of people. And it's people that are the problem, people that are the solution."
• Richard Carson [30:01]: "No one has had any input... it won't work because the consultant didn't dig down in the organization to find out what the real problem was."
• Richard Carson [14:22]: "Look, if you do this, if you work on this, your life, your career, your work environment will be better, not worse."
• Vince Chen [33:30]: "Why 39 steps might not be too many and human stuff consultants usually skip."

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Final Thoughts

Richard Carson's People Sustained Organizational Change Management model represents a significant advancement in the field of change management, placing human engagement at the forefront of organizational transformation. By addressing the limitations of traditional models and introducing a detailed, actionable framework, Carson provides leaders and consultants with the tools necessary to implement lasting change that truly benefits both the organization and its people.

Stay tuned for Part Two of this insightful conversation, where Carson will delve deeper into the 39-step playbook and share more practical strategies for effective change management.

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Transcript

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[Richard Carson]

What is it now?

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's the company. It's chaos.

[Richard Carson]

What's chaos now?

[Unnamed Speaker]

The numbers, the expenses, the books. What if we get audited?

[Jerry]

No one's gonna audit you at 3am Go to sleep.

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[Vince Chen]

Hi everyone. Welcome to our show. Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for Change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today's guest is Richard Carson, consultant, strategist and a guide who once walked away from a government job to join the consultants he just hired. In this two part series, we talk about what happens when organizations try to change but forget about people. Richard shares what most consultants get wrong, why empathy isn't optional, and how a terrible time tracking system Inspired his now 39 step change model. It's practical, honest and filled with stories you won't forget. Let's get started. Welcome Richard welcome to Chief Change Officer. Welcome to our show. You have this book called Book of Change. Naturally, this show is perfect for you. Before we start digging into your book in your learnings, tell us something about yourself, your journey leading up to the book.

[Richard Carson]

I like to characterize my kind of philosophy as carpe diem or seize the day. And I say that because I have not. Even though my background is in urban planning, I haven't planned my career and taken a particular trajectory. I basically seized on opportunities, career opportunities as they presented themselves. So my career is I started out wanting to be an archaeologist, but once I realized it was really about digging in dirt, I moved on from that in the architecture. Architecture led me into urban planning. Urban planning eventually led me into what is called community development, which is an umbrella for engineering, plan review, urban planning, a variety of kind of disciplines under one umbrella, and eventually into consulting. So every time something came along that I found interesting, I pursued it and I've been very happy with that.

[Vince Chen]

I like what you said earlier, how even though you were an urban planner, you didn't exactly plan your own career path. It wasn't all mapped out. You just evolved along the way. Something would happen and you would think, yeah, this feels right. So you would dive deeper and then something else would come up, maybe connected to what you already liked and you would follow that too. These days, people throw away the word perfect a lot. But your path wasn't perfect. It was real. It unfolded step by step. That got me curious. When you say something interested you, what actually sparked that interest? Was it just a gut feeling? Was it a hunger to learn something, something new? Or are you one of those people who's actually addicted to change?

[Richard Carson]

Urban planning is part of it is that I've always been interested in community. And organizations are basically a community of people. And so I've looked community at a scale and I'll give you an example. I was the regional planning director for the Port Portland Metro area of 1.5 million people. And in that job we created plans for land use, solid waste management, wastewater, open space, a variety of really large plans. That is like a maximum scale of community. And for a while I was an advisor to off and on to three governors of Oregon in both land use, environment and economic development. So that's even a larger scale of community. But it also. The most enjoyment I ever had was I was the head, I guess, the planning director for a community of 25,000 people. And I really enjoyed that because I would walk into a grocery store and somebody would stop me and say, can you get a stop sign on the corner of X and Y? Wow, let me look into that. I could actually do something real. Then later on when I got into the consulting work, I started working with organ other organizations and really trying to solve their problems. And how I got into that was one of my last jobs as a manager. I was. I took on an organization that had a lot of problems. And so I hired a consultant to do what is called a performance audit. The GAO government standards for is performance audit. So they came in, did a performance audit. And I got really interested in that to the point where I left my job, I went into. I went to work for these people because I loved it so much, it was so interesting. And I went back and got my doctorate work in organizational psychology and eventually applied that to what I do now, which is organizational change management. So that's kind of the evolution of how I started out digging in the dirt and not liking it and moving on to helping organizations with their problems. And basically it always starts with a problem when I. Somebody comes to me and basically says, look, we have a problem, X, Y, Z, and we want you to help us fix it. Maybe it's because I'm compulsive about fixing things. I should, maybe I should have been an engineer instead of a organizational change person. Whenever somebody comes to you and says we have this problem we want you to help us with, chances are they're wrong. Chances are that isn't the actual problem the problem. It's a symptom of something else. And they really don't know what that something else is. They just know that. I'll give an example. I just worked for a county government in Southern California and they came to me and basically said the citizens and the business people, which are usually opposed or all complaining about the same thing about the performance of a particular agency. And when I looked into it, it was really interesting. But you know what they thought was the problem wasn't really it usually, it's usually What I end up giving them a series of recommendations about how to approach the different issues, the different problems that I found that are resulting in these symptoms.

[Vince Chen]

Yeah, I agree with you on this totally.

[Richard Carson]

A lot of times what happens is whether it's a elected board or a board of directors for a company, they will tell you what the problem is. They'll say, here's a problem we want you to fix. And my first reaction is maybe I'm not going to start from a position of this is the problem, I'm going to fix it. I'm going to start from a position of I'm going to talk to people internally and externally and ask them what they think. In other words, like, I will start with the front counter line staff who, you know, do the customer service and I'll start with at that level and say, what do you think works around here and what do you think doesn't? And then can then take it to outside stakeholders, to managers, until I get the 360 degree look at what people are thinking about what works and what doesn't. And then I'll go back to the people who hired me and basically say, look, this is what I found out. Now you can deal with it or not, you want to deal with it, then I will give you some recommendations. By the way, when I talk about recommendations, I use internal staff to develop answers and that's because I want buy in from them. I'll give an example of something I was thinking about the other day has to do with Trump and Musk and their Dodge or Department of Government efficiency. This was done before by President Clinton and Al Gore, but the way they did it was they went in and they basically engaged the staff to help find solutions and it was by all accounts very successful. Whereas Trump and Musk are basically coming in and threatening people their jobs and they're going to have a very hard time getting those people to be part of the solution. There's going to be a great deal of resistance to them from day one. Not because they deserve it, but because of just people are afraid, change scares people. And the first thing you have to do, at least what I do, is sit down with folks and say, look, if you do this, if you work on this, your life, your career, your work environment will be better, not worse.

[Vince Chen]

Yeah, of course, everyone has their own idea of what getting better means. And in the office environment, it's not just about change. There's politics, power dynamics and other things that aren't even part of the equation. When we talk about improving or Evolving. Some people resist change not because they don't understand it, but because change threatens the status quo. And for them, that's uncomfortable.

[Richard Carson]

The mantra usually to begin with is, but we've always done it this way. Why change it? We've done it this way for a decade.

[Vince Chen]

Now. You've written a book called the Book of Change. You also hold a doctoral degree in organizational change, so I imagine you've studied a wide range of change models. Obviously, we don't have time to go through all of them here. You probably need a full course just to do that. But I'd love to get your quick take from your perspective and your studies. How have these models evolved over time? Has the way we think about change stayed more or less the same over the years, or has it shifted drastically? Feel free to connect this with what you mentioned earlier about employees being part of the solution or what happens when there is resistance. Even in personal change. Has the approach to change itself changed?

[Hannah]

Hi, I'm Hannah.

[Akeem]

I'm Akeem.

[Hannah]

And I'm Britta. And we all choose Ocrevus Ocrelizumab for our treatment. When I was diagnosed six years ago, I had to decide what to do. Now I'm part of a community where I feel seen, heard and supported. Every treatment story is going to have highs and lows, but being there for one another really means a lot.

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This podcast is sponsored by Ramp.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Ugh, I can't sleep.

[Richard Carson]

What is it now?

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's a company. It's chaos.

[Richard Carson]

What's chaos now?

[Unnamed Speaker]

The numbers, the expenses, the books. What if we get audited?

[Jerry]

No one's gonna audit you at 3am Go to sleep.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I can't sleep.

[Akeem]

You could if you used Ramp.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Who said that?

[Jerry]

I don't care because they're right. Go to sleep and sign up for Ramp in the morning. Jerry.

[Ramp]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Jerry]

Yes, and exactly what I also need. Go to sleep, Jerry.

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[Richard Carson]

Start with a quick note about centuries. I won't go back a lot on this, but in 500 BC a Greek philosopher said, nothing endures but change. And that's what change is a constant. What is? It's hard for people to get their head around that, especially when you go in and try to work with them because like I said, their attitude is, you've always done it this way. I think the recent history of change management starts in 1947 with Kurt Lewin, who created the first change management model. He did a lot of other things. He came up with the force field analysis, action research, but change management, he came up with a three phase model which was freeze, moderate and then refreeze. Almost every model, including mine, almost every model since 1947 has followed that. Those basic three phases one way or another. Sometimes it's five, sometimes it's seven. But they all basically say you go in and shake it up, you reform it, then you maintain it. And you may do that several times, but. So since 1947, Ross came up with the kind of stages of grief model which was actually a change management model. Edward Deming came up with a more statistically based model mainly for the Japanese. He couldn't sell it to the American auto industry here until Japanese picked it up and made a success out of it. And then all of a sudden the American automakers were interested in the Deming method. Carter later came along with one Pro Slider had the YAD car. They're basically all the same, the two. So I came up with, I looked at maybe over 100 models. I came up with 22 from about, from Kurt Lewin to about 2016. I really haven't found much since then. What I really looked at was trying to take it the next step. So what I've done instead of even though it was, it's very generalized, three to five steps. I came up with the same three phases, a little bit different name, but they're basically the same. Then I took those into 10 steps and then I took those into 39 separate actions each with each action has a lot of detail about exactly what you can do to accomplish that particular action. So I took my own experience as a manager of organizations, as a consultant working with organizations, and as an academic who learned about these different models in applied all of that to this particular model that we're talking about.

[Vince Chen]

So let me try to recap and you tell me if I got it right. You think that in modern history, Starting from the 20th century, a lot of the current models still trace back to Kurt Lewin's work, the classic three step model. And since then, most of the newer models basically follow a similar structure. Three, maybe five stages moving from where you are now to where you want to be, with some kind of transition or shift happening in between. So would it be fair to say that even with all the new frameworks, the core idea hasn't changed all that much since Kurt Lewin?

[Richard Carson]

Yes, for the most part, even though a lot of these models were developed earlier, there wasn't a lot of interest until the book In Search of Excellence came out. That really made a big difference. And that was the beginning of people and mainly in the business arena looking at it and saying maybe there's a better way to do this. Almost a decade later, In Search of Excellence kind of mort into Reinventing Government, which was another book that was the one that both Clinton and Gore picked up on in terms of implementing what that was about. So the whole idea of, I think the word reinventing is really key. There's the whole idea of changing your organization and the fact that you, given what happens externally and internally, that forces change means you just can't ignore it. You shouldn't ignore it. It's like you said, change for the sake of change is ridiculous. But understanding the forces internally and externally and how to deal with all of a sudden became very, I guess, popular.

[Vince Chen]

So stakeholder, basically managing the stakeholder perspective, the involvement, their needs, their concern. Is that what you mean?

[Richard Carson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Vince Chen]

You have developed a new model. What's the name of it?

[Richard Carson]

It's people. Sustained organizational change management. And I use the word people very intelligent on purpose because organizations consist of people. And it's people that are the problem, people that are the solution. And the only way you're going to sustain change is to create that mindset in the people who work in the organization. I'll give you really an example. Before I wrote the book, I, when I was implementing change in my organization, I did two things that really helped. Consultants will give you a set of recommendations. They'll give it something in a binder. And here you go. And a lot of people will just put that on a shelf. So the trick is to be successful is how do you maintain that? So two things you can do. Number one is to develop a multi year strategic plan that dedicates accountability resources to affect the change. The other thing I did was I created a position of change manager. Now you go into organizations and you aren't going to find a lot of titles of change manager. And this particular person, this woman, basically I gave her the authority to walk around the organization and say to individual managers, okay, you were given this task to be done on this date with these resources, how are you doing? And she would keep on. They had to meet those, meet those benchmarks. And so the strategic plan implemented and there was a person making it happen. It can't really be the manager because the manager has other things to worry about. But you need somebody whose job is to change managers. Having a multi year strategic plan with resources and a change manager really makes a big difference.

[Vince Chen]

Yeah, I was just about to ask you about your model you mentioned that is built on Kurt Lewin's three step change framework. I'm curious, how is your model different from his or even from the other models out there? Give us an overview. How does your model work? What makes it similar to the classics and what makes it stand out?

[Richard Carson]

It's similar in that the three phases are to initiate an organizational assessment to implement organizational change, and three, to maintain that change. So that's basically the same as Kurt Lewin's model. The detail on it is one of the things that's really tried to emphasize that he didn't touch on is the human aspect. You have to really have engaged people in the process. And I go into a lot of detail from the very beginning to the very end about how you use human resources. It isn't you. You need to obviously have buy in from the leadership, but you have to have a process by which you engage the entire organization and everybody in it, give them a role in making the process successful. And a lot of times what will happen is that a consultant comes in, makes recommendations. The leadership basically goes to the managers and says, this is it, do it. And no one has had any input. And they're basically clueless in terms of what happens. A lot of times what happens is it won't work because the consultant didn't dig down in the organization to find out what the real problem was or even if you knew what the problem was, how do you successfully implement it? I'm very concerned about a Lot of consultants are basically selling a product over and over and over to different organizations. And they go in basically with a mindset that, okay, this is it, this is what you're going to do. This is what I'm going to tell you. Xerox. This is actually, I'd say funny, but it actually is sad. Somebody actually gave a report to an organization and they just basically xeroxed, changed the name but forgot and mystical. So the organization is reading this recommendation. All of a sudden this other company name starts showing up. It's just like, how embarrassing is that? And not totally underpin their credibility, but oh, every exercise has to be unique and it has to basically be very sensitive to the people in the organization. And you really, it's important to really listen. And that's why we I. The initial phases of the model are sitting down with managers, line staff, stakeholders, if you were in a corporation, the consumers as well as supply. So really sitting down with those people and listening to what they are saying before you come to any conclusion at all.

[Vince Chen]

So back to your model is people sustained. So while it includes the classic three stages, you've also built in several other steps and actions. What are they? Can you walk us through those? How do they come together in your model?

[Richard Carson]

I'll go through the 10 steps, basically. First steps. Number one is first steps, problem identification, scoping out the problem. Second is there's a kickoff that explains the program, the process, everybody in the organization. So you don't just send out an email. You sit down with each of the organizations, work in groups and answer their. Take them through the process and get their buy in, get them to understand that change can be difficult, but they will be part of the process and will have input all through the process. Then there's data collection and assessment. This is probably the most boring part because you end up reading a lot of action annual reports. It's a lot of statistical analysis, media press information, anything that's written or data driven. Then you go out to the stakeholders and meet with the individual stakeholders, whether they're vendors, consumers, whatever. However they touch the organization, you get, get that feedback. Then you go text into the actual organizational change. And I won't go through that in detail, but that's the diagnostic portioning of the model. And what I ended up doing was I ended up doing using diagnostic model by the National Institute of Health, which was a medical diagnosis process. And what it, what I found was that organizations and people are remarkably the same in terms of their ailments and symptoms and how you can diagnose them because organizations are made up of people. And so that I've used that diagnostic model. Then you implement the change, there's process mapping, re engineering, then you lock in change. There's a number of ways to lock the change in from executive leadership coaching to staff training, tqm, things like that. And then finally is to you maintain the model. And that's like I said, you can do that through multi year strategic plans and budgeting primarily. But you also need a feedback loop that constantly goes back on an annual basis and kind of looks at the benchmarks that you set to see if you are achieving those in one.

[Vince Chen]

That's it for today. We've heard how Richard stumbled into consulting, survived a time tracking nightmare and started seeing patterns in all the wrong problems. But next we get into the real playbook, the Book of change. Why 39 steps might not be too many and human stuff consultants usually skip. See you in part two. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show. Leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media on this Chan, your ambitious human host. Until next time. Take care.

[Hannah]

Hi, I'm Hannah.

[Akeem]

I'm Akeem.

[Hannah]

And I'm Britta. And we all choose ocrevus Ocrelizumab for our treatment. When I was diagnosed six years ago, I had to decide what to do. Now I'm part of a community where I feel seen, heard and supported. Every treatment story is going to have highs and lows, but being there for one another really means a lot.

[Akeem]

Let us tell you more. Hear stories from real people who take.

[Wix]

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